After 2 years of campaigning, Dean pulls 25%

[sandnsea]

After almost a year of nonstop coverage, Dean still fails to pull more than 25%. Even with the backing of several large unions, he is still third in Iowa among union voters according to the latest Pew poll. What does that say about Dean's ability to appeal to the broader Democratic party?

[Dookus]

1. it says we have a crowded field....

and that the REAL campaign hasn't really begun.

These threads are tiresome.

[JohnKleeb]

2. This is a response to a post about your guy dookus

heh :D.

[Dookus]

19. doesn't matter...

they're tiresome regardless of the candidate in question. It's a meaningless argument.

There will be primaries and the winner of those primaries will start with a base of 45%. Then the campaign begins.

[JohnKleeb]

20. course it dont matter

Its bullshit.

[sandnsea]

42. Maybe, maybe not

When your guy is beat to hell on a daily basis and you can't have one thread without "he voted for Republicans" thrown in it, you might change your tune.

[janx]

22. That's right. Wait until Kerry and Clark ratchet up the

war machine in their own campaigns. Then you'll see the big huevos.

[ClintonTyree]

3. It says.............

that he's still out polling everyone else, including Kerry. What does that say about Kerry's appeal? Dumb question.

[JohnKleeb]

4. The point of this is DG, its a response to a post by a Dean supporter abou

Clark. Thats what I gather.

[janx]

5. Kerry has appeal. He is a war hero.

.

[Demobrat]

9. Lots of people are war heros.

It doesn't make them appealing.

[janx]

11. Clark is. And he is appealing as well.

Don't you think so?

[CTLawGuy]

44. George McGovern was a war hero too...

NT

[sandnsea]

15. See #13

I'm asking about Howard Dean's appeal. He's had 2 years to do almost nothing but campaign. Why doesn't he have it all wrapped up by now if he's what the broader Democratic party wants?

[Razormill]

16. I disagree

Kerry was never appealing despite the media's coronation as the "front runner"...Dean does have a problem.The question is relavant because the field ,while still large, has played out all their positions.The rest of the way will amount to nothing more than responses to real time events and "explaining " comments from their past.Dean doesn't seem to appeal to more than a quarter of the democratic demographic because he only addresses 25% of their concerns!

[stopbush]

6. "What does that say about Dean's ability to appeal to the broader

Democratic base?"

Uh, let me guess - that he's doing better than all of the other Dem hopefuls? Yeah, that's the ticket.

Oh, and about this wanker: "After almost a year of nonstop coverage..." Really? A full year of non-stop coverage dedicated to Howard Dean? No illegal war to cover, no speculation about Gore/Hillary running, nothing getting in the way of the non-stop, wall-to-wall 24/7 coverage of HD?

R-i-i-i-ght...

BTW - I've not yet decided on a candidate, but I admire the fact that HD was out there running for president and taking the battle directly to bush long before these other "entitled" candidates bothered to get out there. And by entitled, I mean those who give the impression that they are somehow entitled to the nomination, the most notable being Lieberman and his "but I was the VP nom last time" form of entitlement.

Yep, HD was bashing bush while other candidates were enabling shrub and his dreams of imperialism...and that enabling happened after a solid two years of open assault against the freedoms and rights that this country suppossedly stands on.

Maybe that's why HD is kicking ass with the other Dem hopefuls.

edited for spelling...and to rant more!

[Cha]

7. Dean is doing amazingly well with

accomplished People who are endorsing him!

http://www.deanforamerica.com
http://www.blogforamerica.com
"The Caucus Chair, Alvaro Cifuentes (Maryland), was joined by the Vice Chair, former Denver City Councilmember Ramona Martinez (Colorado), the Caucus Secretary, and State Senator Iris Martinez (Ill.), and the Treasurer, former District Clerk Oscar Soliz (Texas). They are endorsing independently of the Hispanic Caucus, but together they comprise the DNC's Hispanic Caucus executive committee. Also endorsing Governor Dean was Steve Ybarra, Pacific Regional Vice Chair of the DNC's Hispanic Caucus.

Chairman Alvaro Cifuentes said, "I've known Governor Dean for the past 10 years; he always impressed me when we worked together in the Democratic Governors' Association, and I believe he is the candidate who is looking out for the best interests of our community. The passion, emotion and conviction that he brings to the presidential race are exactly what we need to beat George Bush, and he has secured my endorsement."

[Cha]

8. And Rush Holt's endorsement means alot to

me!
Rep. Rush Holt will also endorse Howard Dean at the Trenton news conference tomorrow: "I'm endorsing Governor Howard Dean for president because I share his commitment to reconnecting Americans with their democracy and for restoring their confidence in government's ability to serve the public good. Governor Dean has launched a revolutionary grass roots movement that is inspiring Americans in New Jersey and across the country. He would make an excellent president and he has already shown that he is the type of candidate who can defeat an incumbent."

http://www.politicsnj.com/

[sandnsea]

12. He should have it wrapped by now

With so much time campaigning and nearly all the primary media coverage, why doesn't he have 50% or more by now?

And who was criticizing Bush first???

July 2002. Tim Russert Dean: "I've seen others criticize the president. I think it's very easy to second-guess the commander-in-chief at a time of war. I don't choose to engage in doing that."

July 2002 Kerry:

"Kerry, who has taken the lead among Democrats in breaking out of the party's post-Sept 11 reluctance to criticize Bush on foreign affairs, said he believed a power struggle in the Bush team was at least partially responsible for mixed signals sent to both Israel and the Palestinians.

"It's a most incredible display in my judgment of a kind of amateur hour, and the reason is there is no one person in charge," Kerry said. "Colin Powell is not being allowed to be secretary of state, in my judgment. They restrain him."

Kerry also questioned the tough message directed at Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, accused by Bush of belonging to an "axis of evil" and developing chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Bush has said he will use all available tools to unseat the Iraqi leader.

"The rhetoric has been a huge mistake, the rhetoric is way ahead of the possibilities," Kerry said. "Frankly, that just makes us look silly and strengthens him to some degree."

[windansea]

71. kerry speaks

like a good man

[LuminousX]

10. LOL.. and what is Kerry polling?

This is just a pointless bit of rhetoric. It doesn't even begin to dismiss Dean's lead, it is saying Dean should be FURTHER in the lead. But who sets that expectation?

[sandnsea]

13. This is about Dean

If he's such a great campaigner, has had 2 years to gain support, and is so much better than Clark and the others; why isn't the entire party flocking to him?

[LuminousX]

24. Because the party isn't monolithic...

LOL if it were this easy, then we'd never need primaries.

[PAMod]

14. Well, the media (and others) practically ignored (or laughed at) Dean...

until the summer, so really the "nonstop coverage" began around June or so. And considering that the whole country already knew (and apparently are prepared to reject) the beltway bunch - Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman et al. - Dean's 25% is pretty awesome.

Listen, Kerry & crew are all outstanding Americans with impressive credentials, and have each been useful legislators. Unfortunately (for them anyway), the voters are generally looking for that somewhat intangible leadership thingy when choosing a president.

Tearing down Dean will not get us a Democratic president - I promise you that much. The best that the rest can hope for, at this point, is that their numbers grow from the eventual attrition of the field.

I am fully prepared to support any candidate that can dig himself out of his current hole and overtake Dean. Such a miraculous comeback would indicate a skilled campaigner, and a leader of almost Biblical proportion and would garner my adulation and vote.

If that does not happen, however, and Dean is the nominee, I hope those of you that hate him today will join the movement and bounce Bush next November.

Keep your eyes on the prize!

[sandnsea]

17. Compared to Clark's 2 months

Dean's had over 6 months of constant media coverage compared to Clark's 2 months. So why would Dean people say Clark should drop out when he's winning or tied in several states???

[LuminousX]

25. Okay, drop Kerry and support Clark

[PAMod]

26. If not for Clark's early public worship of Bush's mediocre nat'l security

team, or for his Republican fundraising, he would be polling much better right now. He has not been able to, and will not IMO, be able to play down his sins against the Democratic Party.

It's one thing to cut an entitlement line item in a state government budget (Dean), or to vote in support of President Bush's war (Kerry, Lieberman, Gep) - those transgressions are forgivable to most Democrats.

Chumming with the people who are ruining our country is unforgivable, and should be, frankly.

Even with all that, I don't know why anyone would suggest Clark drop out. Even with his wayward actions, he obviously has enormous appeal (especially on DU - on our polls he consistently finishes at the top, including the second choice polls.)

As an amateur political scientist and historian, I find Clark's numbers fascinating, in that he may have peaked nationally the days after his announcement. His announcement and subsequent bounce were bigger than any I have seen in 28 years of watching this stuff.

One reason, perhaps, is that his was the only campaign kick-off that actually kicked off a campaign. The others had been at it, in some cases, for over a year before their announcement. Another reason is the almost absurd build-up by the cable news people leading up to his announcement. Not even Governor Dean has gotten that kind of exposure.

Whatever the reason, his bounce was huge, perhaps too big - his subsequent slide back into the pack is probably hurting him right now (or is that a chicken-or-egg argument!)

[frustrated_lefty]

18. What does that say

This thread, and dozens of others, say in simple and clear terms, you do not like Dean. :) We get it. :) I, personally, hope you and sandy winds (or whatever the username is) devote even half the energy to supporting the eventual nominee as you do to sniping at Dean, but somehow I doubt that will occur.

[windansea]

72. you rang??

getting that sinking feeling?

[frustrated_lefty]

76. Sinking, no.

Annoyed...maybe. :) My annoyance would diminish greatly if either of you would bother to take a stubstantive stand on an issue or issues. Until you do that..take that back, sandsea has done that....you sound like a heckler in the back row. Sandsea has given a clue, at least, as to why he's upset.

[mzmolly]

21. I'm just wondering who will take second place Clark/Kerry?

seems that one of these guys is gonna be going up against Dean :shrug:

Oh and, I alerted on this, seems a bit inflamatory as per the new user rules?

[LuminousX]

27. I would comment on that

but the last time I did, I got a warning... lol

[sandnsea]

30. Kerry the Rethuglican isn't?

Hmmm.

[windansea]

74. hmmmmmmmmmm

love that alert button do you??

democracy in action

[poskonig]

23. Dean started with 7 people and 150K.

Our campaign continues to grow, and we're in good shape as long as that happens.

I find the results impressive, given Dean didn't start with an establishment behind him, an impressive military bio, et cetera.

[Cha]

28. Our campaign is Very Impressive...and

anyone can see that.

Starting out so small and growing by the minute. :hi:
http://www.deanforamerica.com
http://www.blogforamerica.com

[windansea]

75. agreed 100% (NT)

[Cheswick2.0]

29. After 20 years in The Senate Kerry still polls less than unknown

Newcomer, Howard Dean. Why is that? What does that say about his chances with the larger party? We don't even have to separate out the union vote in a tortured attempt to make a point.

[sandnsea]

31. Bash Kerry to prop up Dean

That's all anybody did in response to this question. Maybe that's why Dean doesn't have stronger support. The rest of the Democrats aren't interested in someone whose only campaign strategy is bashing.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

33. Ahhhh...poor wittle fing.

And, after your "hero" courageously voted for the IWR.

[sandnsea]

37. There we go

Nothing of substance to say, so throw out the old IWR vote.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. You consider the slaughter in Iraq a matter of no importance?

What would you consider "of substance" in comparison to that cowardly vote? Your sad sack candidate backed the empty flightsuit in that little venture.

[sandnsea]

52. This thread isn't about that

It's about Dean and his lack of appeal to the broader Democratic party. It has nothing to do with Kerry or the war. Why do you bring it up when this thread isn't even about Kerry? It's about Dean. Can you post a whole post without mentioning the name Kerry???

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

62. OK. Try this.

Howard Dean is leading the other Democratic candidates with 25%.

The other candidates are polling less than he is. Thus, he seems better able to appeal to Democrats than the other candidates. He also appeals to voters who might decide to vote for the Green Party as an alternative to Democratic candidates who voted to back Bush's invasion of Iraq.

How's that?

[sandnsea]

77. He's had 2 years

Why aren't the Green Party voters already on his side? Why are the Green people in my area going towards Kerry because of his environmental record? Dean's had so much time to get his clear anti-war message out there, why aren't people committed by now if that's what Democrats want? 25% isn't that much after two years.

[windansea]

80. yep

what are the odds dean would have voted no....based on his "words" previous to senate vote when 80% of american public was seething with rage...what was the senate vote again?? Dean's playing a game and every day more people see through it

[thinkahead]

83. there is absolutely nothing we

could say to make you happy - we're just pointing out the facts. Did you know who Howard Dean was last year? I sure didn't. But I sure as hell knew who John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, Dick Gephardt, John Edwards and Wesley Clark (from CNN) were.

Howard Dean has gone from an unknown quantity to the frontrunner in the Democratic race since this summer. His campaign did not catch fire until he woke up the Democratic Party in California last March. Now he has just been endorsed by the rightful winner of the last election. As you very well know - a small number of partisans participate in the primaries - and that is why the poll numbers you see (with the others polling even lower) are so small. There is plenty of time - and room for Dean's numbers to rise - as he becomes more of a known quantity. This has been the trend, and I expect it to continue, despite the obvious whining of the supporters of some of the other candidates.

[poskonig]

34. People who run OBL ads are going to lecture about bashing?

Quit whining.

[sandnsea]

36. There you go again

No proof of that, it's been officially denied by the Kerry campaign, yet Deanie's still use it to bash other candidates. Thanks for proving my point.

[WillyT]

47. Well That's A Half Step... It's Been Denied, But Not Condemned !!!

Must be cause he agrees with the 'thrust' of the ad.

This is one issue that strains my ability to go ABB. I'm still there, but the behavior of certain operatives within MY OWN PARTY has made it somewhat tenuous.

If Kerry and others had come out and said that ad was beyond the pale, and had denounced it publicly, my ability to vote for another candidated would be easy. But since there are candidates that seem to want the benifit of the ad, without any consequences of the blame for its existence, are not showing anything approaching courage in this affair.

Too bad... I always kinda respected some of these guys.

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

50. He said it should be pulled

He said he disagrees with third party ads of any sort. If a candidate has something to say, they ought to say it themselves.

If you expect him to disagree with the content, well that would be just silly. He doesn't disagree with it, either do I, either do that other 75% of Democrats or they'd already be in his camp.

[WillyT]

60. Gotta Link For That ? --- Seriously, I Must Have Missed His Statement !

Thanks ahead of time.

[sandnsea]

64. I heard it on CNN I think

One of the campaign embeds reporting what he said about the ad, maybe MSNBC. The final words were "When asked whether the ad should be pulled, Senator Kerry said emphatically, YES"

[maddezmom]

45. you have proof or just more rumor?

If you have proof I'd love to see it. I highly doubt Kerry was behind the ad. It may have been Gep or even my candidate of choice, but I need hard facts not rumor.

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. It show he is a much better candidate than Kerry

One year ago Kerry had more money, more name recognition, and and was polling much higher than Dean. Now less than a month before the primaries and caucuses start, those roles ahve been switched. Kerry is taking out a mortgage on his house to compete with the donations that Dean's campaign has recieved.

[sandnsea]

38. Kerry Kerry Kerry

Can you support Dean without bashing Kerry? Can you explain why he hasn't gotten more than 25% support yet? Can you explain why he isn't getting the union voters in Iowa when he has the support of two of the largest unions in the country? W hat's Dean doing wrong?

[Freddie Stubbs]

73. He is getting enough support to win

He is polling above 25% in some states, including NH. As long as he gets more votes than anyone else, he is the winner. Candidates must recieve 15% fo the vote in a primary to get any delegates from that state. At thsi point, Dean is the only candidate consistantly polling over 15% in any state. If he only gets 16% and the next clsoest candidate get 14%, Dean wins all of the delagates in that state.

Can you back up you claim that he isn't getting any union voters in Iowa?

[sfecap]

35. After one year of campaigning...

...and many years in the Senate, John Kerry polls dead last among Dems:

Former Vermont Governor Dr. Howard Dean continues his dominance over the other Democratic presidential hopefuls. Of 400 likely Democratic voters polled, a plurality (28%) supports him. No other candidate reached double-digits. Connecticut Senator Joseph Lieberman leads the remainder with 8%, followed by Missouri Congressman Richard Gephardt (7%), retired General Wesley Clark (6%), and Massachusetts Senator John Kerry (4%).

http://zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=773

Even with the backing of several unions, he is polling poorly according to the latest Zogby poll. What does that say about Kerry's ability to appeal to the broader Democratic party?

[sandnsea]

39. Kerry Kerry Kerry

This is a thread about Dean. Most specifically about why Clark should drop out after campaigning for two months and winning in several states while Dean's been campaigning for two years and isn't beating the pants off Clark. It's not about Kerry. Why don't you try to answer the question about Dean?

[poskonig]

40. Nothing is going to be about Kerry after a month.

:bounce:

[slinkerwink]

41. lol, not facing facts, eh?

;-)

[sandnsea]

43. More great answers

Why oh why can't anyone just answer why Dean hasn't appealed to a larger base of Democrats by now?

[eileen_d]

48. I get the feeling that many Dean supporters don't care.

As long as they can be the "good Democrats" and feel superior to any other candidates and their supporters, their work is done.

[poskonig]

49. I'm proud of the base we've created.

I feel like I've gotten my money's worth from the Dean campaign.

[sandnsea]

54. Why isn't he at 50% by now?

Clark should quit because he's at 10-15% after 2 months. Why shouldn't Dean quit being at 25% after 2 years??

[poskonig]

55. Dean not only leading nationally,

his leads are from substantial to huuuuege in Kerry and Gephardt's backyards in the primary states. If anyone should drop out, it should be Kerry.

[sandnsea]

59. They're not huge

His lead in NH is huge, that's it. He doesn't have a huge lead anywhere else. And Clark is beating him in many states. So why would anyone post that Clark should drop out when he's beating Dean after only 2 months? And after 2 years, why doesn't Dean have a larger support than only 25%?

[poskonig]

63. You guys are getting crushed.

If you don't want to see it, fine. But if you don't unite behind someone fast, you'll be supporting Dean before you know it.

:pals:

[sandnsea]

67. More berating, not answers

Clark is tied with Dean in OK, SC & AZ for starters. You're going to have to come up with a new strategy against Clark because beating him into the ground as a Washington insider who sided with Bush isn't going to work. We've all seen that game.

So again, why doesn't Dean have broader support after 2 years on the campaign trail?

[poskonig]

68. It is no skin off my nose if Kerry and Clark lose.

Winning IA and NH implies 50-100 million in free airtime. Dean is already leading and amassing organization in Michigan, Arizona, New Mexico, and South Carolina. Combined with Dean's fundraising prowess, how a divided establishment wins is beyond me.

I'm proud of the campaign we've built. But please, keep asking why Dean's campaign is very huge instead of very superhuge. :toast:

[sandnsea]

78. He's tied

AZ, SC and behind in OK. And you still haven't answered the question. Dean has had 2 years. The Democratic Party knows who he is and what he stands for, at least what he says he stands for. Why hasn't he wrapped up the vote if that's what Democrats really want?

[poskonig]

82. Dean is cleaning up the primary.

Kerry, like Clark, will be lucky if he survives Lieberman in NH.

You'll be a Dean supporter sooner than you realize. ;)

[PAMod]

53. The answer to that question is this:

voters not in the Dean colunm are either not paying attention yet, or they are following another candidate at this point.

This is not the same as saying they don't want Dean. And some who truly don't want Dean are repelled by the fact that Dean is outpolling their favorite candidate, plain and simple. Come "fall in line" time, the VAST majority will be for whomever the candidate is. The rest will drop out or (gasp) support Bush.

Listen, if Dean becomes the nominee and is still at 25%, well then we have a problem, obviously. Right now, his 25% is astounding, frankly.

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but it is a misuse of statistics. It would be akin to saying that Bush deserves the White House because Al Gore only polled 49% or whatever it was.

Also, the reason so many are bashing Sen. Kerry, is they know that you are supporting him.

[WillyT]

56. It's OK, We're Gonna Know In A Couple Of Months, Patience...

You're in for the long haul, right?

:shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

70. sure as soon as you explain why Kerry appeals to less and less Democrats

as time goes on.

[sandnsea]

79. Kerry Kerry Kerry

Every question about Dean gets answered with a bashing of Kerry. What are you people going to do if he's gone after January????

[sfecap]

51. Dean, Dean, Dean...

Why are Kerry supporters so obsessed about Dean? Frankly, if they had spent as much time promoting their guy, perhaps he wouldn't be in the mess he's in.

Watch Clark speed by him. You are taking your eye off the big picture. Dean is where he is...Clark is on the move....Kerry is slip sliding away.

[sandnsea]

57. Then why should Clark drop out?

Why'd somebody post that Clark should drop out since he's only at 10-15% after 2 whole months? What's Dean doing so great that someone would suggest Clark should quit?

[sfecap]

58. Who said that?

Clark shouldn't quit!

I think the real battle is soon going to be between Kerry and Clark for second place...it should be interesting.

[sandnsea]

61. It was posted

It pissed me off. Thus this thread. Which I alerted the mods to lock myself, by the way.

[maddezmom]

65. Dennis, Carol, Al, John. K., Wes, Howard, Edwards, Joe and Clark!!!

None should quit until they want to, not when others say they should.

[Myra]

66. Wow! That means after 2 years Clark will have 400%!

Hm, maybe I should double check that on paper...

[mzmolly]

69. Well personally I prefer Kerry to Clark because Kerry has more "stateside"

experience. :shrug: No offense Myra, but I'd prefer a man earn his stripes within the party before going from private to commander in chief KWIM? ;)

[Myra]

81. No offense taken mzmolly

Actually I'm pretty blown away by Senator Kerry today...
mortgaging his home...?

Every time I decide what I think of him he shakes things
up and I have to reevaluate. Damn him!

[jsw_81]

84. And after 30+ years of campaigning...

John Kerry is nine points down in his home state.

[SaveElmer]

85. Nice Try !!!

<eom>

[Moderator]

86. I am locking this thread...

1. If you start a thread in the General Discussion forum, you must present your opinion in a manner that is not inflammatory, which respects differences in opinion, and which is likely to lead to respectful discussion rather than flaming. Some examples of things which should generally be avoided are: unnecessarily hot rhetoric, nicknames for prominent Democrats or their supporters, broad-brush statements about groups of people, single-sentence "drive-by" thread topics, etc.


and

6. You may not start a new discussion thread in order to continue a current or recent flame war from another thread. The moderators have the authority to lock threads in order to contain flaming on a particular topic to only one thread at a time.


Thanks for your cooperation,
Have a good night,
DU Moderator