Wes Clark: on the "swift boating implications" of Dems' character attacks on Hillary

[Karmadillo]

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/horsesmouth/2007/11/did_bill_accuse.php

<edit>

Update: It's worth pointing out that Hillary supporter Wes Clark has been sympathetic to the idea that Dem criticism of Hillary is "swiftboating." On MSNBC he suggested that the Dem criticisms of Hillary had a "certain character aspect to them" that had a "swift boating implication."

more...

[laureloak]

1. Way to stick that nose up there, Wes. n/t

[JNelson6563]

35. I am surprised

you haven't been piled on for this comment. Of course it's early yet.

Julie

[mmonk]

2. Sorry Wes. You should know better since Kerry is a fellow

veteran.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. Just Curious: Was Paula Jones Subjected to Swift Boating?

As in "Drag a hundred dollar bill through a trailer park, no telling what you're going to find."?

Very disturbing.

[AtomicKitten]

4. First the denial that the SB reference was ever made in the first place ...

and now here come the surrogates reinforcing that very message.

[cuke]

11. No one said HRC is being swift boated

Not even Clark. All you've got is another opinion from the media with heavily edited quotes

[emilyg]

13. Thank you.

[cuke]

15. The right wing media says jump

and Hillary Haters ask "How high?"

[beachmom]

38. That's just what I was thinking AK. I got slammed yesterday for DARING

to say Bill was saying the treatment Hillary received after the debate was akin to swiftboating; now we have this quote from Wes.

I like Wes Clark in his own right, to be clear; I just don't agree with him here.

[AtomicKitten]

41. no worries

The fact is Wes is just doing his job as surrogate, the problem is that he is reinforcing the very message the Clinton camp was knocking itself out denying. Very confusing message and, unfortunately, trying to get at the truth is construed as "swiftboating" which quite frankly makes light of the actual cheese John Kerry endured. In circumstances like this when a candidate finds him/herself in a hole, the best best is to stop digging.

[karynnj]

43. I wonder if it is really good for surrogates to

lose so much of their independence. If they occasionally pass on supporting some parts of their candidate's program, without criticizing it, they retain their own integrity. That integrity, which Clark has in spades, is why he is a valued surrogate, but if he loses some of that or even appears to doesn't his support become less valuable.

Here, it sounds from his own words that he is not entirely comfortable with calling what HRC got from the other Democrats swiftboating - he is using way too many qualifying, wishy washy words. This is NOT a bold statement of HRC was swiftboated, but rather a it is possible that may be certain ascpects of .... (note neither are Clark's words - I am trying to articulate the way I see what he said and doing so poorly.)

[goodgd_yall]

5. That's a crock

The swiftboating of Kerry was nothing like the little back and forth that happened during the debate. Is Wes Clark always prone to this exaggeration, or is it just his fierce loyalty toward HRC?

[CyberPieHole]

6. I have to agree with Wes...there does appear to be a bit of swift boating

going on in the attacks against Hillary Clinton. It certainly is redolent of "piling on".

[Joe the Revelator]

9. Calling Clinton out on her inability to talk about the issues..

is not "piling on" or "swift boating" or whatever other cute buzz phrase you want to use. It is what happens when you become the front runner without saying anything of any substance.

Baby bonds anyone?

[cuke]

21. So what issue do you want to know about?

[JDPriestly]

56. Iraq and driver's licenses for starts.

[CyberPieHole]

28. It's piling on when other desperate candidates have nothing else to say...

about their own campaigns, so all they do is attack a woman who spends her time defining her platform and who attacks the repugs...

"calling Clinton out" is not a buzz phrase?:eyes:

[karynnj]

44. Piling on is NOT swiftboating

It is the very normal thing that happens to every front runner. (It would be easier to say that some of the lies in the 1990s were close to swiftboating - this wasn't.)

[Joe the Revelator]

7. I never thought I was see Clark turn into a robotic Shill...

towing the Clinton line. Its a sad day for me.

[Clark2008]

33. Wow...

His statement above was hardly explosive.

It also was edited with quotation marks placed around key words.

Sounds to me like he's simply against the swiftboating of, well, anyone.

[peacebird]

8. umm.. yeah... ooookay... the fact I don't like HRC is equal to the lies of the swiftboaters...

:eyes:

suuure..... of course it is.... NOT.

HRC is NOT my choice, and I will not vote for her if she DOES gain the dem nod.

That said - my criticism of her is nothing like the swiftboating of Kerry, they portrayed his service in Vietnam and his honors earned as corrupt - I do not like or trust Hillary but last time I checked - she had NEVER served in the military so.....

[BootinUp]

10. Glad Wes made those remarks... my main man.

I've been saying that now for several days.

[Eric J in MN]

12. You're bashing what Wes Clark suposedly said based on two short phrases taken out-of-context.

You don't even give us one full sentence which is supposedly troubling.

[Karmadillo]

14. I'm not bashing and if you can find more words, by all means, please post.

nt

[cuke]

16. Very weak

You don't know what was actually said, so you'll rely on the media's judgement

Foolish

[Karmadillo]

22. I'm not sure I understand your post. The snippet I posted

was all there was at the site I was reading. I googled and found nothing else. Not that there probably isn't something else somewhere that I missed, but the snippet comes from what appears to me a reliable source. There's not much judgment in the snippet, media or otherwise, so I'm a little lost as to what you're getting at. I personally think Clark makes a good point. Democrats shouldn't be attacking Hillary on character. It's a mainstay of the rightwing, but it shouldn't be something we do. If you want to attack her on issues, fine, but focus on the issues, not rightwing fantasy constructs.

[cuke]

26. You act as if you were forced to post the snippet

even though the media has been distorting dems by quoting them out of context. You act as though we should assume the media's characterization of Clark's words are accurate simply because you can't find the full quote.

The proof of why this is the wrong thing to do is demonstrated by the posts that misinterpreted Clark's remarks to mean something other than what he actually said

[Karmadillo]

31. LOL. I should only post information that won't be misinterpreted by some DUers?

You must not spend much time here. If that were the rule, the forum would be blank.

The snippet is from a reliable source. Do you have anything that suggests Clark didn't say what the snippet says he said?

[cuke]

49. You shouldn't talk about what someone said if you don't know what someone said

It's not rocket science

on edit: and the snippet came from MSNBC which I do not consider a reliable source, particularly when I see them printing heavily edited remarks. Again, this isn't rocket science

[Karmadillo]

50. You're right. This isn't rocket science. It's a chat board,

I obviously don't know what Clark said because I wasn't there. It's still an interesting quote that is relevant to the discussions taking place here. Must we actually witness something before we're allowed to discuss it here? MSNBC seems no less reliable (except to you, apparently) than the rest of the corporate media. If you have something that suggests Clark didn't say what he appears to have said, feel free to post it.

Edit: changed scientist to science. Duh

[cuke]

51. It's not ROCKET SCIENCE, Don't believe everything you read and hear

Look for CORROBORATION. You do know what that is, right? Just because you read something doesn't mean you should rush to post it. Doing so shows a lack of judgement and consideration.

And the entire "corporate media" (your words) is not to be trusted, particularly when they heavily edit a remark. That you would continue to defend such obviously foolish actions is revealing.

And it's not my burden to prove something right. If you're going to post something, or believe something is true, then the burden of proof is on you. You duck your responsibility to carefully evaluate what you read, just as you duck your responsibility to back up what you say

on edit: You may want to read the responses in your own thread. Most people understand how foolish it is to believe something merely because the "corporate media" say so

[Karmadillo]

52. Sillier and sillier. What's inaccurate about the quote?

nt

[cuke]

53. All of it

It's completely missing any context

[Karmadillo]

55. LOL. So, in other words, the quote is accurate, but

you don't like it.

[cuke]

57. Wrong

Quotes taken out of context have always been considered dishonest. YMMV

[Karmadillo]

58. A quote taken out of context is one in which the meaning has been distorted. How has Clark's meaning

been distorted?

[Sparkly]

17. Quote?

I believe he answered a question about Bill Clinton's characterization.

Edit: Now that I've read what Clinton actually said, it all makes sense.

[BootinUp]

18. I just watched the video

My take on whe he is saying:

Clark is saying that when someone's character is attacked and there is no way to refute the nature of the attack, it stays out there. In this case everyone knows that politicians avoid answering certain questions, its part of politics, and her opponents are making making a disingenuous charge against her character. A charge they themselves could be subject to.

[Sparkly]

19. I saw it when it aired

The one with Abrams, right? Makes even more sense now that I know what Pres. Clinton actually said!

[BootinUp]

20. Yes

and I agree with describing it as a character attack that stays out there, thats what I have said I saw at the debate that bothered me.

[LeFleur1]

25. Attacks

Be serious. Obama and Edwards got the word from their 'managers' to attack Hillary. They did what they were told. They made a big deal out of nothing, and, then, so did the media. She answered the questions. Instead of saying, "I disagree, my answer would be...." They insulted her by saying she gave two answers or talked but didn't answer the questions, that she was untrustworthy and a bunch of other insults. Then they didn't answer the question either. Since they didn't have an idea about how to answer the question, they just attacked.
Dodd, on the other hand, said he didn't agree with Hillary, then he proceeded to tell why.
These discussions by the candidates are to tell the public what they think about the issues and what they would do about such issues.
The two attackers missed the point and missed the boat. That's why they are sinking.

[BootinUp]

29. I understand all that

I am just complaining about the tactics being used in a primary.

[karynnj]

46. Did Hillary get the word from her "manager"

to disingenuously call Obama naive on foreign policy? Can't that be used in the GE as well?

[calteacherguy]

23. "everyone knows that politicians avoid answering certain questions, it's part of politics."

It doesn't have to be part of politics anymore. My vote is for Obama.

[Karmadillo]

24. If we just clap our hands and believe, Obamabell will be elected!!! Clap!!!

nt

[blm]

45. And did Wes mention WWHD? What WOULD Hillary Do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg

[bfantana]

27. Wasn't swift-boating about past personal issues

so in Hillary and Bill's case, that would involve monica lewinsky, other affairs, whitewater, etc.

Talking about Illegal Immigration and Spitzer's License plan is not swift-boating.


Also, I think Hillary "does not" support giving licenses - but she "supports Spitzer's intentions for security"

I guess that is similar to supporting the "intentions of the Iraq War" but not the actual method it was carried out in.

But this Spitzer issue, shows that Hillary is not prepared to be NYS Governor let alone President if she cannot give a clear answer.

If she does support National Immigration Reform, then there is still the separate issue of State Drivers licenses, since not all illegal immigrants will be covered by the Immigration Reforms in the future.

[karynnj]

47. Even there "Monica and other affairs" are not the same

The underlying truth in the case of "Monica and other affairs" is not a positive in defining Bill Clinton. He is not the candidate, but a pattern of a candidate's wife being unfaithful would hurt any other candidate. (other than Republicans where apparently nothing counts)

The underlying truth of John Kerry's war service is that he was a highly decorated war hero, who showed many characteristics you would want in a President. that was why had the Republican offer to take both his and Bush's service off the table was unacceptable. If say Bill Clinton and Guilliani were against each other - taking the infidelity issue off the table would be fairer - though the Clintons are still together.

[elizm]

30. Always thought Clark was a little whimpy....

...this confirms it.

[Clark2008]

34. And, I suppose YOU have guts enough to tell a dictator

to get out or you'd kill him.

:eyes:

People here are pretty brave behind keyboards.


BTW, it's spelled "wimpy." Spell much?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Sure Sounds Like A " W(h)imp " To Me

"In February, only one month into his command, he was shot four times by a Viet Cong soldier with an AK-47. The wounded Clark shouted orders to his men, who counterattacked and defeated the Viet Cong force. Clark had injuries to his right shoulder, right hand, right hip, and right leg, and was sent to Valley Forge Army Hospital in Phoenixville, Pennsylvania to recuperate. He was awarded the Silver Star for his actions during the encounter.<19>"



While the team was driving along a mountain road during the first week, the road gave way, and one of the vehicles fell over a cliff carrying passengers including Holbrooke's deputy, Robert Frasure, a deputy assistant Secretary of Defense, Joseph Kruzel, and Air Force Colonel Nelson Drew. Clark and Holbrooke attempted to crawl down the mountain, but were driven back by sniper fire. Once the fire ceased, Clark rappelled down the mountain to collect the bodies of two dead Americans left by Bosnian forces that had taken the wounded to a nearby hospital. After returning to Washington D.C. for funeral services, the negotiations continued and the team eventually reached the Dayton Agreement at the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio and later signed it in Paris on December 14, 1995.<46>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_Clark

[beachmom]

39. No, I wouldn't say that. Look, he is a surrogate for Clinton now.

I am compartmentalizing what he's saying from now on from what he says when he is speaking for himself only. He's a good man, and although I disagree with him here and his endorsement, for that matter, that doesn't change the fact that I think he is someone to admire and respect.

[Perry Logan]

32. No shit, Wes.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. LOL

Wes Clark was Christ in a uniform at DU in 2004...Now he's persona non grata on this board because he's backing The Hill... Some of the posters here should get tens for mental gymnatics....

[geek tragedy]

40. Wes gets an "11" for his own gymnastics. n/t

[eugenedebbs]

42. Is it possible?

Is it possible for any progressive to criticize her Majesty without being accused of swift boating, gender discrimination, piling on, etc? At least, the repubs only question your patriotism when they are questioned. And Bill says she can't give 30 second answers yet she refuses to give news conferences to flesh out her beliefs. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

48. I am defending Bill's comments, but Wes was just being foolish here.

[JDPriestly]

54. I am ashamed that Clark whom I have supported in the past

would take Hillary's side on this. Hillary supports the Peru trade deal. Hillary does not support workers in America or in Peru. Hillary is on the wrong side of a lot of issues.

Hillary has demonstrated some odd behavior -- her laugh is a cackle. There are just no two ways about it. Personally, I could care less if she claps like a little girl when people clap for her, but I do mind that she can't take the heat. That is not a good sign. She needs to develop more of a sense of humor about herself. She needs to learn humility. Her laugh is awful, and she has been clapping. Some people find these habits annoying. She has to either accept that or change her habits.