Driver's Licenses For Undocumented Workers

[DemocratSinceBirth]

The Democratic nominee can not support undocumented workers receiving driver's licenses ... While it makes sense to me it's a political looooooooooseerrrrr.... The Rethuglican's are going to make brown the new black this year and run a mean, nasty nativist campaign...

Immigration is this campaign season's Willie Horton and gay marriage...


The same goes for all our candidates...


I am willing to go to the ramparts to defend choice, equal rights for glbt folks,to defend social security from privatization , but not licenses for undocumented workers...

[sasha031]

1. Thomas Hartman was talking about that

just today. It would become, if it's not already is a political football.
The repukes would have it on the ballot all over the country and the minions would flood to the polls, just like the gay marriage issue in 2003.

[dbackjon]

2. Another wedge issue that is actually irrelevent

States only want to ensure that everyone on the road KNOWS the rules of the road.

States are not designed to manage immigration issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Gay Marriage Should Have Been Irrelevant Too

If you don't want a gay marraiage don't marry a gay... If you don't want a straight marriage don't marry a straight...

Simple...

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Sadly, you're citing logic while the OP is predicting emotion

On this kind of issue, I go with the OP.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. Would you prefer to have people driving cars

who haven't ever had to prove to anyone that they know the rules of the road, know when to signal their turns, can read and understand the meanings of street signs, etc.? The fact that undocumented workers can't get licenses doesn't mean they're not already driving beat-up old cars that they sell as soon as the plates expire, in order to get to their crappy sub-minimum-wage jobs. Why not at least put some quality control in place so we know the people who are out there driving around with the rest of us have had to demonstrate some minimum level of ability? This isn't a matter of "coddling" illegals or giving them something they aren't entitled to; it's an issue of public safety.

And if the Republicans don't like it, fuck 'em. I get sick of Democrats being afraid to do the right thing because they figure the Republicans will make a campaign issue out of it.

[Neecy]

40. I totally agree with this

About 7 years ago, I was broadsided by an illegal alien about 2 blocks from my apartment in San Francisco. He ran a stop sign at high speed, crushed the side of my passenger door and spun the car almost on the sidewalk. He hit me so hard that the windows on the passenger side shattered.

Not caring that I could be dead or severely injured (I had multiple broken bones) he took off, because he was driving a lawn service company truck without a license. My car somehow still ran and, pissed, I took after after him and followed him to Diamond Heights, where I finally got the plate number and got a good visual ID of him. Then I filed the police reports and got medical help.

Long story short - it was a nightmare for my insurance company, for me, and for my car (totalled). The guy didn't care that he ran a stop sign at 45 MPH because there was no penalty for him in that - no license, no insurance, melt into the background and let his illegal employer take the heat. IF they drive - and they do - they'd better have to go through the same licensing and insurance requirements that I do.

[OKNancy]

6. At least she has clarified

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/31/a-day-later-clinton-embraces-spitzers-license-effort/

A day after she appeared to struggle to give her views on the subject, Hillary Rodham Clinton offered support today for Gov. Eliot Spitzer’s effort to award New York driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants, as her campaign sought to contain potentially damaging fallout from a what her own supporters saw as a tense and listless debate performance.
Mrs. Clinton’s statement affirming her support of Mr. Spitzer in his office came less than a day after she offered a muddled and hesitant position on the bill, prompting a round of denunciations by her opponents. It signaled the extent to which her advisers viewed that moment as the biggest misstep she made in the debate, and one with long-term potential to undermine her candidacy.

----------------

I don't see what's so wrong with the program after reading about it. It's not a "real" license but an identification card.

[polichick]

7. Very important issue...

As Chris Matthews just said on his show, handing out drivers licenses makes it seem as if the government has given up on protecting the borders.

imo protecting the borders = HOMELAND SECURITY 101

Reps are fools if they don't run with this one ~ it's not about being racist; it's about security in many ways, including economic security.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. I Think There's A Different Phenomenon At Work...

I suspect there wouldn't be nearly as much hostility if the new wave of folks coming here were from England and Canada...

[polichick]

14. I disagree...

Growing up in Florida, we felt overwhelmed by newcomers and it didn't matter where they came from ~ even New Yorkers were unwanted, simply because the infrastructure couldn't handle the growth, resources were constantly threatened and quality of life was consistently diminished.

I'm for a moratorium on immigration from ANY country until we get our house in order on many fronts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I Went To School In Miami

Lived in FL since I was a boy... I'm an Anglo...Cubans rock!!! When I was in college I was the only Anglo in an all Cuban study group... I owe my mom's life to a Puerto Rican doctor... My fiancee is Spanish/Asian...I can't be objective when it comes to Hispanic folks...

[polichick]

25. It's not about nationality or race at all...

EVERYBODY ROCKS ~ that doesn't mean we can all live in the same house. :)

[midlife_mo_Jo]

39. I disagree

If millions of immigrants were coming from England and Canada, they'd be more educated (generally speaking), and would be competing for middle class and professional jobs. That would be awful, imo.

[BootinUp]

24. That doesn't make sense though

It is not possible within reasonable means to completely secure the borders with Canada and Mexico. The best that can be done is to monitor them and catch some percentage attempting to cross.

The first thing undocumented immigrants do is go to their local fake documenter. It is far preferable that the US have some means to better track how many are here, where they are, etc. And policy will be adjusted to reduce the influx as it is better understood and monitored primarily by economic means.

[polichick]

27. The simplest way to "protect" the borders would be to fine employers...

And also to have a clear policy that makes it less attractive to come here. I'm for helping people IN THEIR COUNTRIES, rather than providing corporate welfare on the backs of Americans.

[BootinUp]

28. Fine

but in order to know if you are succeeding, you need to measure it.

[polichick]

29. I'm not sure it's possible to measure it...

But giving out drivers licenses is a nod of approval. I think we need to be clearer about illegal immigration, not muddy the waters even more. Reminds me of a parent responding to a child who sneaks a cookie before dinner by giving him a whole handful of cookies. How confusing!

[BootinUp]

31. I wouldn't give them

a full fledged license, it would be a specially designated license and it would be between the state and them. It would not in any way impede the Federal Gov from any enforcement activity.

[dugggy]

44. You are 100% correct....hefty fines for EMPLOYERS will solve

the problem of illegals in a hurry. We won't even have to spend
money on their return trip. They will buy their own ticket if
they can't get a job here.

And I don't care if they come from England, Scandinavia, Poland,
Russia, Mexico, Pakistan, India, or Nigeria. They ALL BROKE OUR
LAWS and should be dealt with as law breakers.

OTOH I support LEGAL immigration from any country so long as the
immigrants are free of communicable diseases, are educated and can
finance their own bootstrapping into American life. Incidentally,
I am one of those immigrants to this great country who satisfied all
of above conditions.

[rinsd]

8. While I recognize the political perils of DLs for undocumented workers.....

did anyone think they would see the day where Hillary Clinton is criticized for taking the more progressive position on DU?

[polichick]

11. It's not "progressive" to fail to protect the borders imo. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. A True Progressive Would Say Borders Are Irrelevant And We All Occupy One Planet

Of course I think that's hokum but that's a different argument..

[polichick]

15. It's not "progressive" to be foolish either. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Hmmm

Is somebody in Kashmir less worthy of my concern than somebody in Kissimmee?

And if so, why?


I believe we are part of one seamless web....

[polichick]

22. Sure we're part of the same web...

It's not a matter of anybody being more worthy, but simply a matter of space and resources. It's foolish to bring everybody into one country ~ and wise to work together so that all countries flourish, to export technology, money, expertise, etc., rather than importing people.

[rinsd]

21. What is the "progressive" position on immigration then?

[polichick]

23. imo a progressive position is what I suggested in #22 nt

[cuke]

30. That's not much

Hillary wants to see comprehensive immigration reform that provides a path to citizenship

[polichick]

33. No offense to any race or nationality...

But the U.S. has enough citizens imo ~ our environment, resources and infrastructure are in trouble as it is. I'd rather see us export help than import people.

[cuke]

34. I disagree both on the facts of the matter and the politics of it

The truth is, we can't legislate the problem away. Until we can recognize that there are millions here and many on the way, employers will continue to exploit the pool of cheap labor a lack of documentation produces. The only way to solve the problem is to go after illegal employers

[polichick]

36. We don't disagree on going after the employers...

I mentioned that somewhere on this thread ~ it's corporate welfare on our backs right now.

[cuke]

37. But the corollary is to not go after undocumented residents

Hillary knows this, unlike the other candidates. For one thing, she does not use the term "illegal". Many people won't notice that, but you can be sure a lot of Hispanics do, and at a time when the repukes seem determined to drive this fast growing demographic away from the gop. For another, at heart, going after immigrants won't work because it's nothing more than right-wing blather. There's nothing wrong with enforcing our immigration laws and our border, but they will never solve the problem and whatever gains it brings will be more than matched by the expense and the waste of time and effort that could be better spent elsewhere

[polichick]

38. Using the term "undocumented workers" is pandering...

Hillary wants Hispanic votes. But our country is threatened in many ways by allowing this invasion of people, and we need to address it in one clear voice. If we go after employers (end the corporate welfare), export our help, and do away with freebies that make it attractive to break our laws, the problem will lessen.

[Mike03]

42. Using that term is not pandering

How do you know it is pandering?

If she used other terms, she would be attacked by other factions.

Hispanic Votes must be distinguished from mythical "illegal votes."

Hispanics are not happy with illegal immigration any more than other groups are.

But I agree with you about going after employers--but that is not as easy at it sounds either, due to the proliferation of authentic looking false documents.

[cuke]

45. Actually, it's pandering to racists to use the term "illegal"

Undocumented resident is THE correct and legal terminology to use. "Illegal" is a right wing construction used to vilify hispanics. For some reason, the immigration laws are the only ones that earn you term "illegal". For some reason, murderers are "legal"

And your delusion that we "need" to use the term "illegal" is bizarre

[Mike03]

59. Cuke, I respect your ideas

and will rethink what I said.

I didn't realize I said we "need" to do anything. If I said "need" it was not intended the way you interpreted it, since I really don't have strong opinions on the linguistics of illegal behaviors.

[cuke]

61. My mistake, Mike

I was referring to polichicks 'need' to use those phrases, not yours. I responded to your by mistake

Sorry about the confusion

[polichick]

64. What need to use which phrases?

Yet again, you have made a very big assumption that has no basis in fact.

I said that using the term "undocumented workers" is pandering imo. Though you didn't bother to ask, I don't use the term "illegals" ~ the accurate, non-pandering term is "illegal immigrants." And murderers are accurately called "criminals."


(Are you a die-hard Clinton fan, by any chance?)

[Mike03]

60. I re read my post and I don't see the word "need" anywhere

Cuke, where did I say "need"

And if I said it, do you think maybe I meant something less toxic than you have in mind?

[cuke]

62. You didn't. It was my mistake

I meant to respond to polichick's post, but I must have clicked on yours. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding

[BootinUp]

56. exactly on the documents part

the fake documents issue must be addressed, there has to be some official document that reduces the fraud.

[Mike03]

9. Confused on this issue

I think the issue itself has merit, but I don't think it is necessary for the Democratic candidates to go out a limb to defend this.

As to the issue itself, it makes all the sense in the world if you think about it. Who wants to be hit by an uninsured non-citizen? Having worked for a couple of years in auto claims, these sorts of accidents were pervasive. My view is that--while initially I hated the idea--it is sensible to grant everyone in the U.S. an I.D. Now, whether they will actually get them or not is a more complicated matter. And as for insurance, I'm not even sure if they will be required to be insured.

[rwheeler31]

12. Keeping these people unidentified makes it easy for those

who employ them. It seems everyone wants to scream and no one wants to solve this mess.

[BootinUp]

32. bingo. nt

[Lucinda]

16. Until we find a permanent solution it has merit

And the NY Gov is correct in wanting to know who is in his state.

What's a better option, until a permenent solution is in place?

[asjr]

17. I understand there are about

12 million illegals in this country. Unless our government foots the bill, rounds them all up and gives them transportation back to their own countries to get rid of them, I will have no problem giving them licenses to drive. If they are unlicensed and have accidents, they will go to jail and we will still be paying their way. Racism, religion and politics will be our undoing.

[cuke]

19. None of the presidential candidates wants to give DL's to undocumented residents

It's a state issue. Hillary supports Gov Spitzers plan to address the issue only because of bush*'s complete failure to deal with the issue.

As president, she will deal the issue by working to get comprehensive immigration reform legislation to pass Congress.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. Have you forgotten that Hispanics are the largest growing population in the country?

And that we can use issues like this to further re-enforce the image that Republicans are xenophobes, which they are. Republicans have been getting an increasing percentage of the Hispanic vote but that's going to change this time with all of the immigrant bashing we're hearing out of the GOP candidates' mouth.

Yes we'll lose some moderates who actually will cast their votes on this issue. Those moderates are a small minority who make their numbers seem bigger by screaming a lot.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

41. sigh

"And that we can use issues like this to further re-enforce the image that Republicans are xenophobes, which they are. "

How about doing what's right for Americans for a change, instead of politics as usual?

I'm sick of the pandering on both sides. It would be nice if we had truly principled representatives for a change.

[Hippo_Tron]

65. The OP was discussing the politics of this

If you want to discuss why or not this is a good policy there are plenty of other threads to do this. The fact is that whatever policy we decide on, we have to sell it.

[DURHAM D]

35. The conversation is not about immigration - it is about identification.

States are at the end of the problem. Identification of workers/drivers is falling to the states. States can not deal with the front end.


It was a stupid little gotcha moment for Timmy to ask about a state issue. Many here apparently think national candidates should be asked about various state legislative ideas. Can't wait to see what they pull out of the hat for Obama or Edwards.

Obviously, Hillary was up on the issue. She clearly showed that she actually knew more about it than the person asking the question. I assume that Obama and Edwards staffers are now developing daily briefings for their candidates on every crack pot idea that comes up in Raleigh or Springfield.

[polichick]

43. Hillary's response was "nuanced" because she's smart enough...

...to see the causes of the problem, and the layers of gov't involved ~ but it was a bad move in that it gave the others (especially Reps) an opening.

It does shine a light on the state/federal problem of immigration ~ in the past some states have sued the federal gov't about this. Bush is into corporate welfare; bleeding hearts are into helping people ~ bottom line is our country is really threatened by illegal immigration and people really care about this.

[cuke]

46. "bleeding hearts"

Did you know that is another right wing construction?

Since when is there something wrong with compassion?

[polichick]

47. I don't give a fig about anything the Reps say...

I'm a "bleeding heart liberal" or a "true blue liberal" or whatever ~ compassion is essential in a progressive world, but it's not "compassionate" to threaten our children's future because we're not willing to think clearly about an enormous problem that we're facing. As I've said before on this thread, we need to export our help, rather than import more and more people.

What I'm suggesting is not about racism, or not caring about people ~ it's about acting wisely in the best interests of our children, our country AND people who may need our help around the world.

[cuke]

48. So then you won't mind not repeating right wing propoganda, right?

There are plenty of other words to say it with, without using their propoganda. I'm sure it's unintentional, but those terms are meant (by repukes, not you) to hurt democrats, and immigrants and hispanics. You can express your opinions about the issue without resorting to such loaded language.

[polichick]

49. I'm proud to be a liberal with a heart that bleeds for others...

...and would never let the Reps decide for me which words to use.

[cuke]

50. So then you won't mind not repeating right wing propoganda, right?

I didn't quite understand the answer. I'm sure you're a good person. I'm just wondering if you will insist on using right wing phrases

[polichick]

51. Lol

I'm sure you're a good person too ~ maybe just not old enough to remember when "liberal" wasn't a bad word. You're letting right-wing thugs define terms for you ~ so you're the one who's buying into their propaganda. Get it? :)

[cuke]

52. Liberals came up with the word "liberal", not repukes

and still no answer.

[DURHAM D]

53. Thanks for getting involved.

I could not clearly figure out what she was trying to say but I was afraid she was saying what you then took from it.

I even had trouble with her use of Reps = Republican. To me that means a member of the House of Representatives. Is Reps the way Republicans refer to themselves? Hmmm - I wonder.

[cuke]

54. A lot of effort went into being unclear

and not answering a simple question

[polichick]

55. What don't you understand?

I said that I'm proud to be a "bleeding heart liberal" and that I don't let Reps choose my words for me. Liberals and bleeding heart liberals were not always seen as bad by Democrats ~ imo it's a mistake to let right-wing bullies define your terms or limit your language; that's what they're hoping for.

[cuke]

58. I understand fine, now

[polichick]

57. It helps if you're not so concerned about what right-wingers think...

Reps is just my shorthand for Republicans ~ most people seem to get it from the context; sorry it confused you.

[Hippo_Tron]

66. The issue was about immigration, though not really about drivers' licenses

Very few people who vote based on this issue aren't going to sit down and rationally think about whether it's in the country's best interest to give undocumented immigrants drivers' licenses. They are going to vote against Hillary because they are angry that she wants to reward undocumented workers, or they are going to vote for her because they believe that it's fair and just to give them drivers' licenses.

I don't mean to say that most of these people are stupid or uninformed, either. One of my professors who is extremely well educated and does political consulting work and is liberal on almost every other issue takes an extremely hard line stance on immigration because he's pissed off that he had to wait in line while other people get to break the law and get amnesty. He says that if he were President he would deport all of them. When I tell him that's not practical he responds, "I would make it practical." Again, he's a completely intelligent rational man who has such charged emotions on this issue that he doesn't think rationally about it.

That is the way most voters who will actually cast a vote based on immigration will make their choice, emotions, and not rationality. Fortunately, I think the fast growing Hispanic population will be far greater than the anti-immigrant vote.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

63. Best bet is as a State's Rights issue. "States control liscensing, not washington"

[moondust]

67. Correct.

Every one of these candidates had better get their act together on this right now and leave no ambiguity. Pugs will put it on the ballot just like gay marriage.

My bet this morning was that some of the pugs were already recording ads linking Hillary and Democrats with Spitzer's bill.