"Clinton’s critics have been so unhinged in their attacks, and so scathing in their criticisms..."

[wyldwolf]

Clinton’s critics have been so unhinged in their attacks, and so scathing in their criticisms, that a casual observer who hasn’t seen too much of Clinton lately starts to think she’s the Wicked Witch of the West. After all, Limbaugh, Fox News, & Co. characterize her as having no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

And then voters see her for themselves … and realize she’s not awful after all. Indeed, she’s quite pleasant, and shows a fairly warm personality, in addition to being obviously bright.

In a sense, Clinton’s detractors have been too successful. They’ve lowered expectations, which manage to make the senator look even better.

It reminds me a lot of the period before the 2004 presidential debates, when Bush-Cheney ‘04 convinced much of the nation that John Kerry could barely complete a sentence without tripping over his own words in some kind of desperate flip-flop. Kerry was “dull,” “wishy-washy,” and “unsure of himself.” The GOP-driven conventional wisdom was that Kerry’s tendency towards nuance made him “aloof” and “overly cautious.” In the debates, he was going to be awful — a Time magazine poll taken before the first debate showed that Americans expected Bush, not Kerry, to “win” the debate, 44% to 32%.

Of course, Kerry did a great job, and his performance in the debates helped narrow the gap considerably. The real Kerry didn’t match the Kerry caricature at all.

I think we’re seeing the same phenomenon play out with Hillary Clinton. People almost expect not to like her, because they’ve been told for years that she’s “cold,” “calculating,” and “unfeeling.” She’s supposed to come across as “ambitious” and “power-hungry.” And then voters listen to her for a few minutes and realize none of those qualities are there.

What’s more, as Kevin argued way back in January, the right has thrown just about every attack imaginable at this woman, and her political standing is still pretty strong. That they’ve managed to lower expectations is just an unexpected bonus for Clinton’s campaign.

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/13162.html

[wyldwolf]

1. ha ha! And one of the comment describes DU perfectly

Hillary’s gotten her enemies so unhinged that they’re no longer capable of a nuanced attack on her — just increasingly shrill ones as they get increasingly flustered that the general population doesn’t see they Hillary they do. Not only have her enemies set the bar too low for her, they’re incapable of setting it higher.

[Bucky]

37. Then it logically follows that most people attacking her in DU are actually employed by her to do so

My God, that woman is insideous!!

[The Backlash Cometh]

52. Well, be prepared for an article tomorrow claiming that Hillary's negative

poll numbers are fictitious.

[wyldwolf]

54. no, silly! Only "progressives" think poll numbers are fictitious!

[The Backlash Cometh]

56. Is Hillary a progressive today?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3589862

Do send me the playbook.

[wyldwolf]

59. everyday. She just isn't a "progressive."

[The Backlash Cometh]

60. She isn't "a progressive," she's just "a 'progressive'"?

I think you can make a better case for, "depends on what the definition of 'is,' is."

[wyldwolf]

62. surely you see the "quotes" around one and not the other? Or maybe not.

[The Backlash Cometh]

69. The quotes are exact for both comments. American, not British quotation style, of course.

It's your riposte that is sloppy.

[wyldwolf]

76. no they're not.

I used the term in quotes. You did not.

[The Backlash Cometh]

82. Oh, my dear. I'm quoting what I wrote, hence, it must be in quotes.

My original statement:

Is Hillary a progressive today?

Your original statement:

everyday. She just isn't a "progressive."

Finally, quoted appropriately,

She isn't "a progressive," she's just "a 'progressive'"?

[The Backlash Cometh]

89. Oh! I see where I misunderstood you. Is this better?

My original statement:

Is Hillary a progressive today?

Your original statement:

everyday. She just isn't a "progressive."


What I should have said was, she is "a progressive" "everyday" just not "a 'progressive'"?

Is that better? My sincere apologies, then.

[Larkspur]

2. People thought Bill was a liberal, because he campaigned as one, but

after getting into the White House, he turned pro-corporate. Now people are realizing that NAFTA, which Bill championed and still does today, is screwing America.

Those that support Hillary, unless they are corporate stooges, will end up suffering buyer's remorse.

[wyldwolf]

4. More revisionism from you. Bill campaigned on welfare reform, tough on crime initiatives,

...and fiscal responsibility - a far cry from the liberals of the day. Even his campaign commercials said he was a "new kind of Democrat."

[mark414]

64. right, a corporate Democrat

[wyldwolf]

67. So, I can only assume you support Kucinich.

[mark414]

97. I support anyone who's not DLC

[wyldwolf]

108. hmmm... ok... but be a corporate Dem is fine as long as their not DLC?

[mark414]

109. no, but it's a small step in the right direction

[Lucinda]

3. You know, that's an angle I really hadn't considered

I knew she could handle things, and that once people see her in action they often say she's nothing like the picture that had been painted of her. But I never thought of it being that much of a bonus, tactically. Interesting! Thanks for the post.

[SaveElmer]

5. Not to blow my own horn...or bang my own Drum...

:-)

But this is an argument I have been making for months...as have a few others around here...

I think the way the campaign has played out so far is showing this to be correct...

[Larkspur]

6. Hillary also deceives

Last year while helping on the Ned Lamont campaign, I met an Independent who said he would support Hillary for Prez because she is a woman and women oppose war. He opposed the Iraq War. I informed him that Hillary voted for IWR and continues to support the war in Iraq. He refused to believe that Hillary would support the Iraq war.

Low info voters are Hillary's base.

[wyldwolf]

7. So does Lakespur

[Larkspur]

14. Nope, Hillary supports outsourcing of good paying jobs. That's a fact

Hillary also refuses to apologize for her IWR vote and she voted for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment on Iran. She's a war hawk. That's a fact.

[wyldwolf]

25. Hillary and Howard - partners in outsourcing.

And Hillary will never kiss your ass in regards to the IWR.

[Larkspur]

113. I don't expect Hillary to kiss my ass...

but I'll still fart in her face.

[wyldwolf]

126. good, because she' not going to

but I'll still fart in her face.

CLASSIC "progressive" statement.

[Larkspur]

131. You were shoving her face towards my ass..

not me. You must have a guilty conscience about Hillary's deceptions.

[wyldwolf]

136. we don't care to hear what you do with your spare time

[Larkspur]

140. Then why do you want to shove Hillary's face towards my ass?

Obviously by answering my posts you do care about what I do in my spare time.

[Larkspur]

114. Howard is not running for President, Hillary is

and she's fully embraced outsourcing because she's a whore for corporate interests.

Howard is wrong to support outsourcing but he's not in a position to change it.

[wyldwolf]

125. but he runs the DNC.

and he's fully embraced outsourcing because he's a whore for corporate interests.

[Larkspur]

130. As I recall, Pelosi and Reid said that Howard Dean does NOT set policy for the Dems

I find it interesting that Hillary-bots like you can't admit that Hillary is wrong about outsourcing, but I can admit that Howard is wrong about it. Just shows that you are a mindless droid for Hillary.

[wyldwolf]

137. As I recall people of your stripe don't give a damn about Reid and Pelosi

[Larkspur]

141. This DTC member does give a damn about Pelosi and Reid

I also disagree with them on key issues, like impeaching Bush and Cheney and supporting corporate lobbyists over the rest of us.

[DURHAM D]

8. Honey - you need a new coloring book. n/t

[Tesha]

13. That and DLC true believers and propagandists.

> Low info voters are Hillary's base.

That and DLC true believers and propagandists.

Tesha

[HeraldSquare212]

9. What's that Truman quote?

"I just tell the truth and it seems like hell to them."

[Warpy]

10. Yeah, crap like this makes Clinton a lot of friends really fast

NOT.

[saracat]

11. There is absolutely no comparison between John Kerry , who is a true statesman

and a real patriot and Hillary Clinton.

[SaveElmer]

12. You are correct...

In addition to being a true patriot, statesman, and groundbreaking Presidential Candidate...Hillary is a better politician than Kerry...

[saracat]

15. Bull pucky. Hillary is not worthy to clean Kerry's shoes. Hillary has

displayed none of the leadership of Kerry in the Senate. Where was she when Kerry called for a fillibuster? You would think a pro-choice female would have been the one to call for a fillibuster! But hey gotta "reframe" be careful what the anti choice people might think of her.

[BootinUp]

16. The irony

of the tone of your posts in this thread is amazing to behold.

[saracat]

20. I will never allow anyone to use John Kerry's name to promote Hillary after what the Clinton's

did to sabotage such a great man.Their tricks in 2004 were horrendous. And most of the folks employed to do their dirty tricks are still working for Hillary, like Carville.I also do not forget Hillary piling on joining the Repukes in trashing Kerry for the "botched" joke. I cannot let someone I feel is a hero be besmirched by an association with as unethical person.

[abq e streeter]

47. that (the botched joke incident) may have been the turning point for me

in losing whatever respect I may have had for Sen. Clinton. She knew goddam well what Kerry meant, but jumped in head first with her phony, cynical "he should apologize " statement . Better to weaken Democratic solidarity in the face of the relentless right wing attack machine, and stab John Kerry in the back than stand up for him and possibly lose the Fox News viewer vote. Hillary's claim of fighting the right wing smear industry is laughable; she's accommodated them time after time . The late great Molly Ivins pointed that out concerning Hillary's involvement in the Terri Schiavo controversy, and HRC's flag burning bill, both of which Molly referred to as "contemptible little dodges". By the way, incredibly, even for the Hillary-is-perfect-in-every-way contingent , one of them criticized me for pointing that opinion of Molly's out, since Molly, being no longer with us, doesn't have a chance to withdraw the (and I quote from that particular Hillary-is-god poster) " gross hyperbole" of that statement. The sad part is, though, I'll still end up voting for the shoved down our throats by the media candidacy of HRC; another repub presidency just cannot be allowed to happen.

[LittleClarkie]

112. As if she ever had the Fox News viewer vote in the first place to lose it.

Meanwhile it continues to be Hillary's supporters who turn me off more than Hillary herself.

And the way she's being shoved down our throats. The smug, "it's inevitable" meme and such. Maybe if I got to know her I would warm up to her, but there's all this shit in the way.

Even so, being the good little Dem I am, if she's nominated, I'll give her the "Kerry treatment" and try to warm up to her. It worked for Kerry, it might work for her.

But I'm not impressed to say the least so far.

And then there's my sig pic to deal with. There are people in their twenties in this country who don't know what it's like to be governed by someone other than a Bush or a Clinton.

Like Hawkeye Pierce with his fish and liver, I want something else.

[SaveElmer]

17. My guess...

Is a classy guy like Kerry would be disappointed in your crude and patently false criticisms...

[saracat]

22. I am sure he is not fond of Sen.Clinton after her complete lack of defense regarding the "so called

botched joke".And what about my criticisms is "patently false" pray tell?

[SaveElmer]

24. Virtually all...nt

[saracat]

27. We disagree.Did she not "leap in on the so called "botched joke'?

Did she "Not" lead a filibuster on the SCOTUS appointment? What was not true? Perhaps you disagree that the Clintons sabotaged 2004? That could be open for debate but you still have to acknowledge that the Clintonistas such as Carville and others who were "assigned" to the Kerry campign and worked against him, still work for Hillary. Whatever.

[SaveElmer]

35. Pointless...

I could tell you Hillary said the sky was blue...

And you would argue the sky was green...

[saracat]

42. And that is the usual response to any criticism if Hilallery's actions. Her Kyl /Lieberman vote was

NOTHING. Her choice of the Mark Penn as one of her chief advisor NOTHING.Her insulting an Iowa voter NOTHING. Her piling on of Kerry NOTHING. She is not held responsible for anything. Whatever.

[SaveElmer]

44. They are no more noteworthy...

That the same types of things other candidates do...yet Hillary seems to be the only one that is the focus of your obsession. Robert GIBBS, NOTHING. Tony Rezko NOTHING, Working at Hedge funds that foreclose on poor families NOTHING, non-apology apologies for your senate career, NOTHING...

[saracat]

45. Again the pivot to attack another candidate rather than address the

issues facing Clinton. Change the topic quick.Sheesh.That is a bit transparent.

[Forkboy]

51. Divert and distract is the M.O. for most of them.

[MonkeyFunk]

36. The irony

is just yesterday she started a thread comlaining about "The nastiness and contempt displayed by those who have endorsed a front running candidate..."

I guess endorsing a runner-up exempts her from nastiness and contempt.

[saracat]

38. After the viciousness displayed toward my request for civility, i realized that the effort was not

appreciated.I am still not attacking supporters.I have not called anyone"stupid" or been nasty to them. I only dislike their inclusion of John Kerry, who I admire in a comparison with Hillary, who I do not.Period.

[MonkeyFunk]

40. I find your attacks on clinton

to be among the most reliably vicious ones on this site. You'd best be prepared to take a little heat directed back at you.

[saracat]

41. But I have not personally attacked her supporters.And the most "vicious thing I have ever said

about Clinton is that she is unethical, which I feel she is. And that is hardly on par with what some have said about other candidates.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beachmom]

28. I don't think that was necessary. Kerry won the primaries by a landslide

and came very close to unseating a war time encumbent president. Word I have read is that Hillary herself considered running in '04, but deemed it unwinnable.

[zulchzulu]

110. High five, Sara!

Comparing John Kerry to Hillary Clinton is like comparing Beethoven to Celine Deon.

[NewHampster]

18. Superb post wyldwolf

Speaks to what I've been discussing with some friends who are dems and "hate Hillary". I snarkedly said that it appears Hannity and rush have done their jobs well. I also asked them the same question I pose to repubs once or twice a week.

Tell me why you hate Hillary Rodham Clinton?

The dems and repubs almost all give the same answer if they give an answer at all. Most say they actually don't know.

The typical answer from Democrats is she's a cold, opportunistic, calculating blah blah. Almost word for word what Rush used to call her 100 times a day.

To misquote Limbaugh. "She's a cold, opportunistic, calculating Feminazi".

Fellow Democrats. Think about this. Is it not possible that the wrong wing speak of the last 15 years has worked? Is it not possible that Hannity, Rush and the others get paid those millions because what they do works?

Think about it please.

[DrFunkenstein]

31. Do Limbaugh and Hannity Oppose Her Vote For The Iraq War?

Or against the Levin amendment? Do they oppose a nuclear attack on an Al Qaeda cell?

Please stop with the conservative tactics of guilt by association and actually pay attention to our legitimate criticisms.

[wyldwolf]

55. I dunno, the only people conferring with the likes of them are "progressives"

[monmouth]

19. The FReepers are going nuts with the rumor that Sandy Burger is

now a part of her campaign. They honestly believe it and are just batshit crazy over it.

[DrFunkenstein]

21. Is That The Same Kerry Whose "Botched Joke" Clinton Blasted During the 2006 Race?

I would say that lowered the bar for her, but the Clintons already developed a long history of compromising other Democrats for their own political gain. Gore wasn't especially thrilled with the effects of the Clinton triangulation on Democrats, either.

Why would she steal at least two news cycles and break the Democrats momentum going into the 2006 elections just to score points against a potential competitor? Especially on such a ridiculous issue?

There is what is good for the Party and what is good for the Clintons. While the two may meet at times, too often they do not.

Her inability to put the long-term goals of the Party (and liberal policies generally) ahead of her own ambition not only fueled her IWR vote - and refusal to vote for the Levin amendment - but also turns increasingly troublesome with her statements on the expansion of the Executive branch's powers.

Finally, I just don't want someone who has to beat the war drum to prove they can be as "tough" as a Republican. That is not only wrongheaded, it is outright dangerous given the nature of our struggle with global-reaching terrorist cells that thrive on U.S. "toughness."

[saracat]

23. Excellent post! But no doubt they will flame you for it.Constructive criticism is NOT allowed.

[MBS]

excellent comments, I agree completely n/t

[zulchzulu]

111. Spot on

The Clintons were up to trashing Kerry's so-called "botched joke" to make it seem like a story. I trust them as much as I trust a junkie hiding in a dark alley.

[beachmom]

26. I agree that negative overkill can backfire. In the case of John Kerry,

it was such the opposite of who he was, the debates were quite mind blowing to casual observers, who did not know his debating prowess. But make no mistake: the media was dead set against him. He had few unfiltered moments in 2004 for people to see who he really was. The rest of the time the media spent it caricaturing and spreading lies coming from the Right. All Democrats will face that. And quite frankly, Hillary's behavior in Iowa yesterday was not helpful, and fueled the image of her burnished by the Right. I thought she lost her cool, and showed she is not the perfect politician many of you seem to think she is. First Commandment of politics is not to be rude to a voter in an early caucus state.

[JNelson6563]

29. Well, actually

I think the public's view of Clinton is a testimony to the horrible job done by Team Clinton to handle the situation back when Bill was President. They ignored the hate-mongers and the monopolizing of the media to their own (and the country's) detriment.

All this talk that Clinton will handle any and all attacks is laughable. So many hated both of them so deeply, long, long before any campaign by Sen. Clinton for the WH there's no undoing it.

It's sad but true. Unfortunately the die-hard Clinton supporters either don't see it, don't care or are in complete denial.

Julie

[wyldwolf]

30. ha ha, Julie! Good one! But remember, you're not discussing this with stupid people

Most of us were around and active then.

[saracat]

33. And again the inference is made that anyone whose view differs is "stupid".

[wyldwolf]

34. sorry, the inference is people are NOT so stupid as to agree with that tripe

[saracat]

39. Another example of twisting.It is obvious that if you think that those people

who do NOT agree with what you call "tripe" are NOT stupid, you are also saying that those who do agree with what you refer to as "tripe" ARE stupid.

[wyldwolf]

43. another example of twisting by you. ha ha!

Obviously you don't know either way, you're just here to play contrarian because you got beat up so bad in your "Kumbayah but Clinton is still bad" thread.

[saracat]

46. No twisting here.I am not referring to other candidates supporters as "stupid " or some of the

other beauts I have seen posted on DU I have seen posted by Clinton people. But whatever. We disagree and never the twain shall meet.

[wyldwolf]

61. no, you just attribute traits to them that are non-existant... how did you say it?...

"The assumption that everything she does is perfect."

[saracat]

63. I have never seen a post by a Hillary supporter expressing disappointment+

or disapproval of any of her actions. I have seen posts disagreeing with Edwards and Obama by his people and other candidate supporters have expressed criticism of their candidates at times, yet never have I seen Hillary being taken to task for anything by her people. Maybe she has been, but I have not seen it on DU .Doesn't mean it hasn't happened. It means I haven't seen it. BTW, what about all the imaginary traits that were assigned to "people like Saracat" in another thread?

[wyldwolf]

68. so?

:shrug:

[saracat]

75. You prove my point.

[wyldwolf]

78. how did I prove you've never seen a Hillary supporter express disappointment in her??

:shrug:

I realize you felt the need to reply with something, you could have a least made sense.

[beachmom]

88. So, I have read honest posts by Obama supporters who were

disappointed in a vote or a position. These were real Obama supporters, but what they weren't were hacks. Now I'm not saying you're a hack (I don't know enough of your posts to judge), but it is inevitable that you are going to disagree with your candidate. So have at it -- what has Hillary Clinton done that you haven't liked? As I am a long time Kerry supporter, I will confess (and have publicly) that I disapprove of him not coming right out and supporting Cape Winds. I am honest about it, and although I am in disagreement with some fellow supporters, this is my honest opinion.

Now it's your turn.

[wyldwolf]

93. I'm sorry, beachmom. I wasn't taking turns with you.

[beachmom]

115. If you can't come up with anything that Hillary has done that you didn't like,

then it's hard to trust you. You're just like the spin doctors on TV.

[wyldwolf]

119. beachmom, why do you think I care if you trust me?

[beachmom]

121. Wyldwolf. You seem to emulate your candidate. n/t

[wyldwolf]

122. you seem the emulate the netroots

Self centered and thinking everyone owes you something.

[beachmom]

132. Nobody owes me anything. Other than the truth. You won't do that, and that's sad.

You have also shown that Saracrat is right. Instead of discussing the issue at hand, you resort to personal attacks, calling me "self centered and thinking everyone owes (me) something".

[wyldwolf]

138. Read the OP. THAT is the issue at hand, not whatever you want to divert to

[karynnj]

139. Gee - aren't you part of the networks?

[burythehatchet]

48. Actually the poster has previously described those who

disagree with it as "yipping chiuahuas (sp?)"

[Forkboy]

53. Hey, that was me!

Wolfie loves him some Forkboy. :)

[ruggerson]

94. I think of you more

as a chinese crested. :P

[Forkboy]

105. LMAO

:rofl:

That was a good one.It's always refreshing to be insulted creatively, and not see the simpleton's retort of "dorkboy" or something. :thumbsup:

[JNelson6563]

49. And that changes nothing

Unless there was a point you wanted to refute? :shrug:

Julie

[wyldwolf]

57. yes, I refute your point the Clintons didn't fight back against the right wing.

:shrug:

[saracat]

66. How do you refute that? Just curious.

[wyldwolf]

71. by stating emphatically that Clinton, did in fact, fight the right wing.

Examples:

Rather than allowing Republican budget plans to sacrifice the common good to their ideology, Clinton shut down the government in Nov. of 1995, effectively defeating the GOP-controlled congress's aims of imposing sharp hikes in Medicare premiums and deep cuts in education and the environment.

During the impeachment sham, there was a reason people like Gingrich suddenly grew silent. Ask Dan Moldea. The only solid link between the Clintons and him was James Carville.

[saracat]

73. What has that to do with Hillary?

[wyldwolf]

77. LOL! Read post 29, then follow the conversation to this point. Staying on topic is crucial.

Give it a try.

[saracat]

79. Again.Your response was about Bill.Hillary had nada to do with the shutdowm.

Gee, I guess Hillary actually ran the country and Bill didn't do a thing. Sheesh. Julie gave some specific examples that would be great if you addresed those, speaking of staying on topic.

[wyldwolf]

81. Again, if you read post 29 that started this subthread, we're discussing Bill. Do you need a quote?

post 29:

I think the public's view of Clinton is a testimony to the horrible job done by Team Clinton to handle the situation back when Bill was President. They ignored the hate-mongers and the monopolizing of the media to their own (and the country's) detriment.

All this talk that Clinton will handle any and all attacks is laughable.

See the name Bill? See the poster denying BILL handled the situation?

[saracat]

83. But the "Clinton being referred to in this quote

"All this talk that Clinton will handle any and all attacks is laughable."

is Hillary.She is the one running for office. Forget about it.

[wyldwolf]

90. the quote was based on Bill's history, which I clearly took issue with

[JNelson6563]

87. Really?

I don't think they did nearly as much as they should have. Apparently their strategy was ineffective. So many people who don't know anything about politics whatsoever are quite certain they hate the Clintons.

This is irrefutable, even by your fluid standards, so, what does this tell us?

Did they fight back? Perhaps but too little too late. The high negatives are evidence that it wasn't effective, regardless of how hard or timely the efforts may have been.

Julie

[wyldwolf]

92. first you said they didn't do anything. NOW you say they didn't do enough

How many more times will you move the goal posts?

I don't think they did nearly as much as they should have. Apparently their strategy was ineffective.

Which is why Bill got removed from office. Oh, wait...

So many people who don't know anything about politics whatsoever are quite certain they hate the Clintons.

oh, yes, those ignorant citizens, Julie! Bill left office with a 66% approval rating and Hillary currently has an 80+ approval rating among Democrats (and it the front runner)

This is irrefutable

I just did. :shrug:

The high negatives are evidence that it wasn't effective

psst! Obama's negatives are now a mere 4-5% lower than Clintons. What does that mean Julie? It means the more well known a candidate, the higher the negs.

[unc70]

91. wyldwolf, are you going to make me come in here? Remember last time.

You just kept tossing the RW/MSM talking points after the debate, taunting others to contradict your overly-simplified, deliberately misleading, and undocumented allegations about the positions of the various candidates.

After various posts by you in mere minutes claiming a win in your challenge for lack of takers, you got several, including me, who took the time to respond in depth, with facts and links enough to win on merit. And how did you try to refute our facts? Selectively posting debate transcripts that stopped just before where your allegations were disproved. And then trying to get cute when called on that, too. Remember?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3578214

[Forkboy]

95. That's our Wolf!

:rofl:

[wyldwolf]

96. if you have anything relevant to the conversation, feel free to wade in

[unc70]

103. No, you go first. When I see you conversing, I might wade in.

Otherwise, I don't want to risk feeling slimey for no good reason.

[wyldwolf]

106. ok, suit yourself

:shrug:

[BootinUp]

127. hilarious little distraction. n/t

[wyldwolf]

129. yeah. "Don't make me come in here. " Come on in... "No, you go first." LOL!

[frylock]

32. yawn

[LittleClarkie]

50. Except that we don't know what the voters think yet

since they haven't actually voted for her yet.

[wyldwolf]

58. yes we do. We see it in weekly polls (hint: they poll voters)

[saracat]

65. I guess we should just cancel the Primary since the Polls are always right.

After all they poll "voters". Just none who don't have land lines, and that would be close to half.But hey elections are so pre 9-11. Lets have a coronation. :sarcasm:

[wyldwolf]

72. is you contention pollsters aren't polling voters?

[LittleClarkie]

86. Would you be worshiping at the altar of the polls quite so fervently if Hillary WASN'T ahead in them

It's very nearly all you do anymore. The polls, the polls, the polls. As if the supporters of all the other candidates might as well come to the light and recognize the inevitableness that is Hillary. Who needs primaries anyway.

[wyldwolf]

100. I don't deny things that aren't going in my favor.

[LittleClarkie]

70. What about the likely voters who have caller ID?

They are not polling voters. We don't know which ones that will be several months from now. Even a likely voter might decide not to vote. They are polling likely voters who haven't actually had a chance to vote for anyone in the primary, what with them being several months away yet and all.

It will all depend on the GOTV effort, and who's actually motivated to get off their duff and vote.

And that can't always be measured.

[wyldwolf]

80. what about them? If they're not polling voters, who/what are they polling? Trees? Cars? Cats?

[LittleClarkie]

84. Then why didn't the lead Dean had in the polls translate out to votes for him in the primaries?

Polls notwithstanding, anything can happen on election day.

Or can you see the future and are certain that every yes on the phone will translate out to someone getting off their butt and heading for the polls.

They are polling people who vote, yes. But they have yet to vote for Hillary in the primaries, hence we will not know if the polls were correct until the primaries start.

You speak of them as if they'd already voted for her and then traveled back in time to wait for the phone call from the pollster.

[wyldwolf]

99. because people changed their minds

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

101. And that can't happen with Hillary?

:shrug: ?

[wyldwolf]

102. has anyone ever said or implied it can't happen with Hillary?

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

74. Thanks for the kind words re: Kerry btw.

And if Hillary does get the nomination, I promise that she will get the "Kerry treatment" ie, I will read all the books and article and such I can get my hands on in order to campaign FOR her instead of against the Republican. I thought that Kerry had the personality of styrofoam before I got started in 2004. But then again I was still a sheeple.

Perhaps I will warm up to her then the way I warmed up to Kerry.

[Mass]

85. LOL. So the argument is that Hillary can win because people do not like her?

Incredibly laughable.

[Semper_FiFi]

98. Kick and recommend n/t

[Jim Sagle]

104. Her defenders are pretty wacked out as well.

[Cha]

123. Her attackers have good

cause..her attacking defenders are just whacked.. Eueawee that's gonna get me some guff.

I'm sure they believe in their candidate with all their corporate loving hearts. Go hillary.

[Alegre]

116. She's A Brilliant Woman Who Was Fighting Back the Hate & Righties

long before any of us starting blogging - OR had computers in our homes for that matter. I admire her beyond words and honestly can't understand where the vitriolic hate comes from on sites like this and other progressive blogs.

I actually wrote a diary on this over at dailykos last night and we got a great discussion going. Will try to cross-post as soon as I can (I'm a newbie and apparently haven't participated in these discussions long enough - but stay tuned!) ;o)

[Alamom]

117. k&r

[jmp]

118. [Vote for Hillary: She's not awful]

Looks like a campaign sticker to me. ;)

[yellowcanine]

120. Yeah, Pubes are king the same mistake with Hillary that Carter and many Dems made

with Reagan in 1980. He WAS a right wing ideologue, but instead of focusing on the ideas and promoting an alternative vision there was too much focus on how scary he was. When he came across as folksy (highly scripted to be sure), not scary, in the debates, the door was opened for people to vote for him. Carter undoubtably won on debating points, Reagan won on style. I tore my hair out over it at the time. Fortunately I had a lot more hair back then.

[DrFunkenstein]

124. I Think They Are Making The Same Mistake As They Did With Dean

A whole lot of opposition research for nothing.

[wyldwolf]

128. funny how prophetic the OP was in regards to the replies in this thread. Check THIS one out --->

... lakespur would "fart in Hillary's face."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3590511&mesg_id=3592455

Talk about unhinged!

[yellowcanine]

135. "fart in Hillary's face." Shades of "Canterberry Tales" If I remember correctly, the

farter got a hot poker laid on his arse by the fartee. So that should give any would be face farters pause.

[Perry Logan]

133. The smartest thing Hillary's critics could do is keep their mouths shut.

In all seriousness, I'm sure the lame arguments and incontinent language used against Hillary have helped her immeasurably. I can attest that hearing this sort of garbage have radically changed my thinking.

Thanks for sharing with us, anti-Hillarites. We love your earthy way of expressing yourselves.

But what you say tells us a lot more about you than about Sen. Clinton. And it just doesn't smell so good. Take my advice: if you don't want Hillary to be President, your best strategy by far is to shut your pieholes.

And I say that with love.

[yellowcanine]

134. If they are worried about Hillary they better get themselves a good candidate

and quit thinking they can put some empty suit like Romney or Thompson or some mean snarly bastard like Guiliani up against Hillary and make it all about her. It will not work.