Where's the outcry against Gravel's stiffing of the credit card companies?

[PurityOfEssence]

Why am I not hearing about this here? There should be some serious outrage, and it's dismaying that there isn't.

In case you didn't hear his response in the last "debate" when asked whether he was fiscally competent enough to be steward of the national purse after his bankruptcy, he said: "...hey, look who I stuck with that debt. I stuck the credit card companies with a $90,000 debt, and they deserved it!"

He's a scofflaw of epic proportions with a statement like this. This is disgusting. Are we to SERIOUSLY consider someone for president who doesn't feel beholden to his word, not to mention THE LAW? This is bullshit anarchic larceny of juvenile proportions: stick it to the man.

Not only does he have no remorse, he glories in it; somehow he feels entitled to this, he almost sounds like he should be rewarded for it as some kind of Jesse Hood, or whoever else pops up in his addled head.

I was waiting to hear if someone would bring this up, yet nary a word. Are we simply not paying attention? Do we collectively feel that this isn't worthy of MAJOR public repudiation? This is truly immoral. Fine, break the law as a private citizen as long as one is willing to pay the price, but this even leads one to believe that he'd run up the tab and skate deliberately, since the eeevil companies deserve to be fleeced anyway.

Okay, let's forget all the morality. Let's just talk about political SENSE. Can someone who says something as flagrantly reckless and selfish as this be elected to ANYTHING? Mercifully the reactionaries haven't seized on our lack of repudiation as "proof" of the fiscal dishonesty and slovenliness they like to tar us with, but I'm sure that'll come if it hasn't already.

Just for the sake of decency, he should be SERIOUSLY taken to task for this. Even if there's more to the story than I know (like some deliberate malfeasance by those credit card companies) to come out and flatly state that it's a VIRTUE to welch on financial obligations is the height of brazen idiocy.

Any takers here?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

1. ROFL.

:rofl:

MKJ

[NMDemDist2]

2. Gravel is an entertaining nutbag

but I was pretty amazed at that response too, and that it was allowed to just pass on by.....

[DURHAM D]

3. He should not be allowed at any other debates. Period. n/t

[pnwmom]

5. He's just an unfortunate distraction.

The OP is right. I can imagine other circumstances where a bankruptcy could be overlooked -- Kucinich's problems with Cleveland, for example, or a candidate who suffered a personal bankrupcty because of medical bills -- but Gravel's attitude toward his personal bankrupcty eliminates him as a serious contender, IMO.

[sandnsea]

4. Bush invented Enron accounting

bankrupted several businesses. Nobody cared about it when he did it.

[Colobo]

11. That doesn't justify anything.

[sandnsea]

21. Corporations are never accountable

Typical double standard. If Gravel had bankrupted a company, there wouldn't even be a question about it. It isn't a matter of justifying anything, it's a matter of challenging the thinking where people make individuals accountable for things the elite never give a second thought to.

[dsc]

47. actually he did bancrupt a company and was asked about that too

in the very same question.

[GoneOffShore]

6. With a bit of luck

Gravel will drop off the radar soon.

And with statements like that, lose any political credibility he might have had. Not that he's ever had any IMO.

[Silence Dogood]

7. GRAVEL for President!

bumper sticker:

"screw the CCC"

"BK is ME"

[reality based]

8. That's what my banker asked me today

I told him to take it up with Joe Biden

[Clintonista2]

9. Aww give him a break, he's only there to make a point lol

Nobody is "seriousley" considering him.

[Colobo]

10. Gravel is ridiculous. A waste of space and time in every debate.

[PurityOfEssence]

13. Might as well break out the rubber noses and inflatable shoes and invite Lyndon LaRouche

Just what IS the cut-off threshold, anyway?

I don't advocate him being banned, but he should be pilloried for this and asked to explain his freeloadin' ass on this one.

Is he just there out of "fairness"? He can't possibly be polling any better than a gondolier in the Sahara at this point. Let's just pass out the yarn wigs to the rest of 'em and have 'em all pile out of a little car onto the stage next time; it makes about as much sense.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. Unlike LaRouche, Gravel actually did some good things in the 70's

Again my solution to these crowded debates is to stop front loading and have a long drawn out primary process. The debates will get smaller when candidates start to drop out and while Iowa and New Hampshire and other early states will get to weed some of the candidates, the big states like California and New York will get to make the decision between the two or three that remain.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. That's what some of the DLCers on DU said about Kucinich in 2004

that he was "a distraction" and "shouldn't be allowed in the debate."

If Gravel is really a nutjob, then he's harmless and entertaining.

If he's got something going for him, he deserves to be treated like any other candidate, since NO votes have been cast.

[Silence Dogood]

33. Kucinich bankrupted the city of Cleavland

because he refused to compromise. Dennis caused unmitigated chaos. Citizens suffered greatly without fire and police depts, teachers went unpaid, school closings. Then got kicked out of office. He was and is a walking disaster.

DK is an extremest just like Bush. The Russians and the Chinese would love his Peace Dept after he advertised Guantanamo as a resort destination and ran a yard sale on the WH lawn wholesaling nukes and weapons of mass destruction.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Yawn

I have to go somewhere, so I don't have time to respond to this one.

[killbotfactory]

12. Credit card companies are thieves and predators

Sure, it's not a smart thing for a serious candidate to say, but we all know he isn't a serious candidate.

[Book Lover]

14. So let me get this straight

I am supposed to feel outraged that Mike Gravel filed bankruptcy and is unashamed with that fact? Who's paying you to slur the man? After all, if he's not a serious candidate, why bother with your OP?

[PurityOfEssence]

22. "Unashamed" is one thing; proud of stiffing a creditor is another

If he had just said that he was not ashamed of it and that it was his last resort, that would have been one thing. He could have even turned it around and gotten some deserved sympathy for being sandbagged with a question like that.

To stand there and be proud of sticking his creditors with the bill is disgusting. A person who feels free to decide which agreements he abides by and which he doesn't is not worthy of ANYBODY'S trust. How do you know that YOU won't be the person who doesn't deserve to have an agreement honored?

Nobody's paying me anything for this; I do it because of a respect for the covenant of society: to live up to one's word as best one can.

As for why I bothered with this even though he's basically a gadfly, I thought I made that clear enough. Since I didn't, it's like this: are we as a group of allegedly somewhat like-minded people to collectively give this a pass without at least some mention of it? It's gleefully selfish, dishonorable, reckless to the very foundation of our economic coexistence and just plain disgusting. I would like some of us to go on record--as at least some have here--that this is not what we are about. It is VERY alarming how many people here have already stated on this thread that it was just fine to skip out on the tab; credit card companies all deserve it anyway.

Yes, credit card companies are out of line. Rates are predatory, charges are misleading, all sorts of things like this happen and politicians are greased with contributions to look the other way. Whatever happened to usury laws? Still, to revel in one's fucking over of financial institutions is deplorable and for us to not call it out as what it is is tantamount to endorsing it. That's the point. It does matter. Even if he's the cranky old uncle, he's still part of the family and the family needs to speak.

[Book Lover]

23. You certainly are living up to your username

Though I would suggest adding "sanctimonious" to it somewhere in there.

[Nutmegger]

15. We're so lucky to have a candidate like Gravel up on the stage with the others.

He called it like it is. He was the first the bring up the L/K amendment. Who else would have done that???

[jillan]

19. I agree. He may be like your goofy uncle - but he constantly brings up

questions to the other candidates that everyone else wants to ask, but is afraid to.

I am glad he is in this debates. He cuts threw some of the bullshit that is being fed to us by all of them.

And - he is right when he says that Harry Reid should bring out the same bill to withdraw the troops every single day.


So leave Gravel alone.

[MetalCanuck]

20. Other than Dennis

none of the others can even compare with Mike, he does tell it like it is and he is the reason today that Bush cannot draft you without cutting his own neck in the process.

[man4allcats]

16. Well, actually I think the credit card companies do deserve it.

Their lending practices are questionable at best even if people do agree to the terms. People agree to buy dope too, but pushers still get prosecuted. That said, I must agree that a cavalier regard for one's obligations is irresponsible. I do think a legitimate case can be made for throwing in the towel. I went through bankruptcy myself, but not before conscientiously trying to avoid it. For me, it was a last resort. I regret it came to that, but there was no other reasonable way out. I guess what I'm saying is it can happen, but don't be flippant about it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

36. That's My Take

If you're broke you're broke...

But what frosts me is you that Mr. Gravel most likely had "fun" buying some of the things with his credit card that he didn't pay for...And then to cavalierly laugh that he didn't pay for them strikes me as irresponsible...

[MetalCanuck]

17. Mike kicks butt!

GO MIKE!! Yes they do deserve it :)

Credit card companies and Banks are monetary vampires.

[PurityOfEssence]

27. Well, I'm DEFINITELY not going to invite you over to any parties

You'd probably make off with my punchbowl, since I obviously wrenched it from the frostbitten hands of some frail orphan somewhere.

I remember back in school when some friends stole a pitcher from a bar. No, wait...actually, I've got that wrong; they "liberated" it, that's what it was.

[rusty quoin]

18. I loved what he said.

[hisownpetard]

24. I can picture Mike Gravel standing on a box in Hyde Park on a Sunday afternoon. If you let him talk

long enough, something he says is bound to make sense.

True, some of his remarks are startling in their candor and seem right on target.
But then he veers off into crazy-land, and you almost have to look away...

[PurityOfEssence]

25. We should spring for a one-on-one debate between him and Alan Keyes

Mike can fulminate and wheeze about giving everyone a guaranteed yearly salary as Alan prattles on in his tinny, precise little blather about pornography and Jesus until Gravel's flailing righteousness causes Keyes to snap, foaming at the mouth, and bite him on the leg.

Fun season, isn't it? Too bad the world hangs in the balance...

[hisownpetard]

28. Too bad, I know. Scary/funny. nt

[2rth2pwr]

29. People like Gravel are the reason rates are higher than they

should be. He asked for a loan, they gave it to him. To state that he was sticking it to 'em is beyond goofiness it's entering dementia.

[PurityOfEssence]

32. They're certainly a really good excuse

The justifications for punitive fees and exorbitant rates are often that they're needed to cover for losses from crime, incompetence and just this kind of cavalier approach to one's obligations.

Sure, they're often just a handy excuse to jack up the cost, but there is a REAL causality here, and it's tiresome that so many people refuse to see the connection or take any responsibility. In the end, anarchic leftists are just as clueless about how civilization works as lawless libertarians are on the right.

We're all in this together, and it only works if we respect each other and hold ourselves accountable first.

[terisan]

34. They are money predators, like some people are sexual predators. They pay off presidents & congress

to get favorable business terms---they are not operating on level playing field because they paid certain people extra money to own the field the rest of us pay for through our tax dollars. They have paid off politicians to repeal the usury laws. Beyond that, they hide behind corporation law to evade personal responsibility for their bad behaviors.
To condemn Gravel and not them is to identify with the predator.

[2rth2pwr]

39. So we should see Gravel like a victim of sexual abuse?

I think I have a casserole I need to check on...(backs away, slowly)

[terisan]

41. A victim who figured out a counterattack or a con man who outconned his conners. nt

[Desertrose]

49. Thank you!

"They have paid off politicians to repeal the usury laws. Beyond that, they hide behind corporation law to evade personal responsibility for their bad behaviors."

"To condemn Gravel and not them is to identify with the predator."


They lure people into debt and have protected themselves while the people are hung out to dry.

Sending people "checks" on their cc accounts and encouraging them to spend up to thier limit is irresponsible- especially knowing the interest rates & penalties they can charge.

DR

[Naturyl]

44. Wow, against a guaranteed income, too?

Yeah, making access to the necessities of life a basic human right is a pretty psychotic idea. I'm drooling a bit just thinking about it.

[Cameron27]

30. I thought he sounded downright nutty

at some points during the debate, but I should probably :hide: after I say that.

[hisownpetard]

31. Well, at least if he ran he'd have the Cranky-old-man vote sewn up, for sure!

[terisan]

35. Where is your outcry against credit card companies paying off politicians to allow usury ?

The government is protecting the thugs over the citizens.

[NoPasaran]

37. The simple answer is that no one is seriously considering Gravel

If our candidates were a solar system, Gravel would have had his planetary ststus revoked.

[Hippo_Tron]

46. So... Gravel is Pluto?

[derby378]

40. Credit-card companies REWROTE the laws in their own favor...

...to make it harder for citizens to pay their bills and get out of debt, not to mention filing for bankruptcy if all else fails. Can you blame Gravel that much for "sticking it to the man" and telling the collection agencies to go screw themselves?

[Naturyl]

42. I didn't mind.

Credit card companies are predatory lenders who make money by aggressively convincing people to take loans they can't afford. Gravel redistributed some wealth from the bad guys to the good guys. I realize that neither Gravel's position or mine is likely to be popular, but neither of us care.

That said, due to people's endless worries about the welfare of super-rich predators, I agree that Gravel probably tanked whatever credibility he had with his remarks. Heaven forbid he should be "unfair" to people who make their luxurious livings by being unfair to the rest of us.

[sufrommich]

43. There is no outcry because nobody takes him seriously.nt

[MalloyLiberal]

48. Why do you even give a ****?

He's a nobody loser who has 0.1% support. Don't give him any attention. If anything tha'tll just raise his support from the Nader lovers.

[Naturyl]

50. The guy who stopped the draft is "a nobody loser?"

He may not have much support, but he deserves more respect than that. He's keeping the heat on the "say nothing and do nothing" frontrunners. Kucinich has my vote, but with a distinguished record of public service spanning decades, Gravel is hardly "a nobody loser."

After reading some Gravel and Kucinich topics today, I'm wondering if this site has now become "DLC Underground."

[MalloyLiberal]

51. yea, for suresies

haha

[JeffR]

52. I'd be seriously outraged if I took Gravel seriously

I'm not because I don't, I guess...

[goodgd_yall]

53. "Deliberate malfeasance"?

Hell, yeah! How about some outrage toward credit companies?

Gravel didn't go into bankruptcy to "stick it to 'em," but he found a way to take some comfort out of denying the CCs some of their ill-got profit. All credit companies charge enormous percentage rates and an appalling number of fees beyond what they need to make a decent profit.