Should the government be a video game nanny like Holy Joe would like?

[ButterflyBlood]

Poll question: Should the government be a video game nanny like Holy Joe would like?

Hillary seems to think so: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/14/news_6129040.html

[rep the dems]

1. No. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

2. You, My Friend, Are a Republican That Hates Powerful Women

Isn't it obvious?

:sarcasm:

[IndianaGreen]

45. Pandering to social conservatives is a sign of weakness, not strength

Holy Joe, Tipper Gore, and Hillary have decided that they trust the federal government as a nanny, rather than rely on a combination of technology (such as the "V" chip for TV programs), and parents exercising their parental obligations to know what their kids are up to.

[madeline_con]

3. We already have everything we need.

A game ratings system and parents.

BTW, GTA San Andreas is rated M, so what if there ARE sexually explicit minigames in it? :shrug:

[Buzz Clik]

4. I opposed Tipper Gore's interference in the music industry as well.

It's all annoying.

[DRoseDARs]

5. Only if there's minimum sentencing guidlines 4 producing crap games like Left Behind: Eternal Forces

Pubic* flogging would be a treat to watch for such crimes against the industry. :)



*Note: NOT a typo...

[progdonkey]

6. would "Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing" merit a death sentence, then?

It gets a whole 1.0 simply because that's the lowest they can go.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/driving/bigrigsotrr/review.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=gssummary&tag=summary;review

Be sure to check the video review. Even my sister who doesn't get PC games at all was laughing her ass off. :-)

[ButterflyBlood]

19. hahah, yes, I've heard about that game before

Check out the FAQ on gamefaqs.com about it.

[keroro gunsou]

7. speaking as a gamer and former Game Stop employee...

hell no.

there is a game rating system in place and there are plenty of resources for parents if they want to do a little research on the games they buy their broodlings.

it never ceased to amuse me when parents would buy a game like grand theft auto for their 10 year old and then bring it back the next day (if not sooner) and proceed to yell at me or a coworker that we shouldn't be allowed to sell games like that, blah blah....

one incident that stands out in my mind and my former manager's (we still laugh about it now) was i had to deal with a completely crazy woman complaining that Doom 3 was too violent and inappropriate for her "darling, innocent" 9 year old. after explaining the rating system (which she seemed to miss after spending 2 minutes reading the box) and what i knew of the game, she then proceeded to blame me for her poor judgement. after about 5 minutes of her raving and screaming (which she was doing) she made the mistake of saying games like that should be banned for the good of society, to which i snapped off, "then what exactly do you expect me to do for stress relief after dealing with someone like you?" that shut her up immediately and made my manager laugh his ass off. the lady realized how silly she was being and calmly got her refund and the hell out of my store.

mind you, this was before game stop made it mandatory to inform people about the ratings and possible content of the game... i swear if you are too lazy or stupid to bother to read a box and look for the rating, then you've got no right to bitch about the game when you return it.

parenting is a full time job, and i for one am tired of having the buck of responsiblity passed onto myself or others. do your damned job or don't bother reproducing. if you are too stupid or lazy, don't reproduce, and save the rest of us the headaches.

/rant off

[progdonkey]

10. the Hell Knight on the cover and the name "DOOM" didn't clue her in, either?

:rofl:

[MADem]

12. You JUST PROVED that the 'system' you tout isn't working

t never ceased to amuse me when parents would buy a game like grand theft auto for their 10 year old and then bring it back the next day (if not sooner) and proceed to yell at me or a coworker that we shouldn't be allowed to sell games like that, blah blah....

And then you proceed to make fun of a "crazy woman" (is that a euphemism for "not up to speed with the latest technology" perhaps? Freaked out because maybe some other charmer of a clerk recommended it to her as a goof, maybe? ) and you explain the rating system to her AFTER the fact.

Perhaps if there were clear ratings on the box ahead of time she could have gotten some sort of "Happy Flowers" game for her kid. Perhaps if the system were PLAIN she wouldn't need to come back to the store twice. I'm sure it just made her day to make that return trip...not.

If the boxes were plainly labelled, there'd be no need for these parents to even be asking a retail clerk for any help at all. Just because parents don't know how to use a computer, or an XBOX, or some of the newer gadgets nowadays, does not make them evil OR stupid.

I hope you never have to deal with the kind of scorn you heap on people, simply for "NOT KNOWING" what the latest and greatest electronic toys are and how they work. It will happen to you one day, you know. Remember that. It WILL happen, even if you think it won't.

Sheesh. Such unkindness. It's just not nice to make fun of people in that fashion. Not everyone is an internet whiz kid or a gaming pro. Not everyone can BE everything. A lot of people who can game like mad would literally die working on a lobster boat, or logging, or trying to operate a family farm. They'd be eaten alive by the fierceness of the work.

Everyone has talents, and some people just don't have them in front of a keyboard or a game pad. That's no reason to crap on them.

[AlCzervik]

13. the boxes are labeled very clearly, here is one of my daughter's and this is

a small case clearly labeled on the corner.

[MADem]

15. But you KNOW what you are looking for. Grandma or Grampa raising

the kids because Dad ran off with a stripper and Ma is in Iraq might not know. They might think that E is an M for Mature on it's side.

Not everyone is video game savvy. Some people think they're compact discs and have no clue at all. It's not their fault--different people have different interests.

An idiot proof system, like something that matches the film ratings, might be the easiest system to introduce.

[progdonkey]

18. this is the cover to DOOM3... exactly what that parent would've seen...

You're saying a parent who buys this and is "shocked" that it's not suitable for her kid doesn't deserve to be called stupid?

Front Cover



Left Inside Front Flap



Right Inside Front Flap



Back Cover



An idiot proof system, like something that matches the film ratings, might be the easiest system to introduce.

That would be the big M in the lower right hand corner on both the front and back. ;-)

[MADem]

22. Yes. I am. Looks like something out of Ghostbusters--designed to be "Oooooh, scary!!"

Or Jabba the Hutt in Star Wars...which had those 'scary' Storm Troopers and Darth Vader in it as well, to say nothing of monsters and creatures up the Ying Yang. But no one had a problem taking kids to see those films, did they?

If there's an "Ewwww" factor, especially when parents or grandparents react that way, kids get a kick out of it. Even parents who don't get technology get that--they were the same way as kids--if the parents hate it, it's cool. And even names, like "DOOM" mean nothing. Everything is "Extreme" This or "Extreme" That--and half the time, it's not extreme at all, it's the same shit, repackaged.

BTW, I can't see the inside covers (the picture didn't come out) --but the parent wouldn't be able to, either, if the game was wrapped up or in a box in a store.

The front cover monster looks like it could be drinking a purple drink at a Star Wars bar...IMO.

[progdonkey]

24. the front flap isn't wrapped up...

I don't know why those ones aren't showing up if the others are. Maybe it's a size issue, since they're a bit bigger. :shrug:

Here's the link to the website I got them from: http://www.mobygames.com/game/doom-3/cover-art. If that still doesn't work, I'll try to describe the inside flap image as best I can.

The picture spans the two sides and is of the "Hell Knight" that's also on the cover but at a slightly different angle and imposed over a red pentagram. The words "THE GATEWAY TO HELL IS OPEN" are written large across the two sides, and there are in-game pictures of some of the various enemies that you face in the game. (Specifically some Zombies, a Pinky, some Lost Souls, an Imp, and a Flaming Zombie, which you can see if you take a look at the list of DOOM3 enemies at Wikipedia here.)

None of this would've been wrapped up on plastic or difficult for anyone holding the package to see, since there's rarely (I'd say never, but just in case there's one somewhere) any plastic wrapping around computer game boxes now (the video games are usually now in DVD style cases, and so wouldn't ever have any sort of flaps). Instead, they just put a small round piece of plastic tape along the bottom and top open edges to serve as a seal (the computer game companies, unlike the movie companies, have learned that people want to be able to get their product out of the box as soon as possible, instead of dealing with annoying plastic "security devices" that take ten minutes to remove).

I'll admit this part here is total speculation, but regarding the name "Doom," I would think that many parents have heard of Doom or "Doom-type games" in the media because it never went unmentioned that the Columbine killers liked to play the original Doom (as did every single other computer game player during the 90s: companies even had to ban Doom from their computer systems because workers were playing online against each other instead of working, it was so popular), though with the hysteria of school shootings largely gone and replaced with terrorism hysteria in the media, I'd understand if the name "Doom" wouldn't click in parents minds now. In all likelihood, this lady's kid asked her to get her DOOM3, she said ok and quickly grabbed it off the shelf without looking (or the kid just handed it to her in the store and she didn't even look at the game to even see the name, let alone anything else), and then when she heard the sound of gunshots and demons screaming from the PC speakers, she only then learned what she bought her kid. And instead of getting pissed off at herself for not paying attention, she re-directed the anger at the guys working at the store.

It reminds me of the time I managed to watch the very violent and R-rated Robocop when I was just ten. I kept asking my mom if she could rent it for me, and she said no, since it was R-rated. Eventually, I asked my dad if he could go and pick it up from the video store for me (I didn't mention the rating, of course ;-) ), and he said okay, and brought home a copy later. I was so happy and only then pointed out that it was R-rated, and he said, "Oh, it is? Dammit." I think he was more disappointed that he got played by a ten year old, but he knew that if he had just done his job and checked the rating (the video place even highlighted the ratings on R-rated movies, so it was pretty obvious), I wouldn't have then been sitting with an R-rated movie in my hands.

[MADem]

28. I could see it at the link. Honestly, it doesn't seem that bad to me

And the bit about fighting evil in the flap sounds kind of, well, heroic...like knights of old, only on Mars. Gee, what could be wrong with that? Space travel AND knights!

[keroro gunsou]

37. one more thing!

DOOM3 was and still is the only game to ever scare the shit out of me, and i was 34 at the time i first played it. then again, i was stupid enough to play it in the dark, with the surround sound cranked... all the ambient sounds and the general creepiness of most of the levels gets to you after a while... and i wasn't a big fan of hearing water dripping and assuming something was behind me, turning to shoot it, then turning back to find the real critter, or a body falling from the ceiling and just hanging there.... :scared:

[MADem]

54. Wow, now see--I never would have gotten that from the cover art

If I were clueless about the game, I'd be thinking along the lines of Star Wars.

The title of the game is a bit of a downer, though (but that might not be off-putting at all to parents who grew up listening to Ozzie Osbourne or watching the newer--circa 1980s-- franchises of horror movies)...and I do recall the 'Columbine connection' but of course, the poor parents who bought the thing before the media associated the game with that event were probably thinking when that story broke, "Awww, shit, I'm unknowingly turning my kid into a school shooter."

[keroro gunsou]

35. in regards to grandparents shopping for games...

MADem-dono:

all video game ratings MUST be on the front of the packaging, it's the system specs that are on the side.

most of the grandparents that i encountered shopping for games brought in a list of what their grand-critter was looking for and i'd make it a point to tell them about the games and the ratings, since i figured they'd be the ones that would be a bit out of touch with the content of the games. though i was surprised one sweet little old lady asked me whether or not a certain game was an RPG or a tactical RPG... and proceeded to chat with me about games with gamer-speak...

heck, several of the grandparents ended up telling my manager that i deserved a raise for being so helpful.

then again, i know more about video games than a normal person has a right to... :evilgrin:

how much more idiot-proof must the ratings be. people aren't so much stupid as they are lazy. if you are too lazy to read a package for warnings/instructions/ingrediants, then i've got little sympathy for you if the contents do not match up to your expectations.

[MADem]

55. You know, the 'dono' bullshit needs to stop. I DO know. That's called a personal insult

and we don't DO that kind of shit here. Just because I have empathy for those who do not know does not mean that I can't figure shit out--I can.

I happen to know a grandparent who went to the trouble of making sure that the grandkid had XBOX 360 and not XBOX, and who went looking for a game for the grandkid. The clerk wasn't nice, and sold the poor bastard an age-inappropriate game. One of our young gamers in the family let the guy know it wasn't a good pick and he was able to return it.

So not all clerks are nice--the guy told the clerk he was looking for a game for an eleven year old, and the clerk sold him the game that HE liked. And if the ratings were so clear, Gramps would not have even needed the clerk's help.

When the movie rating system came into being (I remember the days before it existed) there was this exact same hue and cry over it--everyone whined that the sky was falling. The world didn't end then, and it won't if they ever do resurrect this ancient two year old proposal and implement it.

[keroro gunsou]

61. it is not.

-dono is a old-style polte way a referring to someone in japanese. it's a some what archaic version of -san, used by samurai.

i play an online game with a majority population of japanese speaking players, so i tend to use japanese when i don't intend to.

it amuses my JP speaking friends mind you... ^_^;

[MADem]

75. I know san and sama, never heard dono in everyday use, though.

I am not an especial fan of slicing dicing samurai films of late--I used to watch them maybe thirty years ago, but that was a lifetime away....

[keroro gunsou]

83. kenshin from

Rurouni Kenshin used it a lot. also Keroro uses it to refer to his "master" in Keroro Gunsou.

[Zhade]

65. The poster was being respectful, not attacking you.

NT!

[MADem]

80. That was explained to me. I was not familiar with the term. NT

[Zhade]

43. "They might think that E is an M for Mature on it's side."

Um, only if they can't comprehend the structure of the English language, given that the rest of the box is not written sideways and that an E doesn't look like an M, even if on its side.

You're basically arguing for more restrictions based on people incapable of understanding the written word.

[MADem]

56. Well, that E isn't placed at the same angle as the other words on the box, is it?

It's on a bit of an Enron-ish angle.

I'm not "arguing" anything. The people who are complaining about the ratings system are doing it not to be assholes, but because they've been confused by it in the past. If it were clear as can be, there wouldn't be any complaints.

First they're stupid, then they're assholes, then they're lazy, and now they can't read. Wow. It just couldn't possibly be that maybe the labels aren't as good as they might be.

[Solon]

39. The boxes ARE clearly labeled, and the system is as simple as the one used for movies...

the problem is that Parents DON'T take the ratings system clearly. If a game is rated M for Mature, then the game is NOT for kids, period. This is like parents blaming the MPAA rating system for buying Dawn of the Dead for their kids, then returning it because it was too graphic, and totally ignoring the "R" rating.

[MADem]

57. E for Everyone is obvious. T for teen, too--more or less.

Though I know a few eleven year olds who can handle T for Teen material.

But what IS M for Mature?

Is it like PG 13, or R, or NC-17? Or is it like X?

There are some "R" rated movies that a thirteen year old kid can handle--it depends on the content of the film, the subject matter, and so on. A single boob can give a film an R--it doesn't matter if the subject matter is Shakespeare. Shakespeare in Love was rated R, for example. Billy Elliot, about the dancing little boy, was rated R just for swearing--and that's a film a mature eleven year old could easily handle. Schindler's List is another film that teens under 17 could watch, too.

What IS the meaning of "mature" in these cases? Is it sex? Violence? Cruelty?

There's no way a parent can know, just by looking at a rating, what the content of the game is.

As I have said elsewhere, if the system were so clear, there simply wouldn't be a problem. People don't go looking for trouble just to make the younger generation feel 'put upon.' Hell, there's too much going on in the world for that kind of nonsense.

Maybe they need to go to the old 'board game' type ratings--and put down a suggested chronological age. The "Everyone games" can be rated from three to a hundred and three. Mature games can be rated OVER 17 or 18, if the content supports it.

[ButterflyBlood]

63. This is what the M label looks like

17+ Looks pretty damn clear to me.

[MADem]

78. And when did they come up with that design?

After the legislation was proposed, perhaps?

And after that, the legislation got shoved in a drawer, didn't it?

But hey, don't let those facts get in the way of your big DRAMATIC "current events" story about Hillary for the "Gaming Community."

Oh, and don't forget to turn off your XBOX on Election Day, either...

[Zhade]

42. Um, your argument only applies to blind people. Or MAYBE the illiterate.

See the lower left corner?

Not hard to read.

You lose the argument.

[MADem]

58. No, I don't lose the argument. You can only see the world through YOUR knowledge base.

You're completely unable to put yourselves in the shoes of others. That's not a terribly impressive trait, frankly. This isn't ABOUT winning or losing, anyway. But if you engaged in (dare I say) MATURE debate, you'd see that. The reason this issue was brought up is because people expressed concern. People don't do that unless there's a problem. ESRB is addressing the problem, but their efforts are still in the nascent stages. And why did they do this? To avoid government regulation. And WHEN did they get serious about it? When the legislation was proposed, two years ago.

In actual fact, the ESRB rating system has only recently settled on the C to AO ratings. They used to have one called KA (Kids to Adults) that was later replaced by the E designation. They're still getting their shit together at this point--the system is not carved in stone by any stretch. AND, most importantly, their participation in the process is still voluntary. They self-regulate, and plenty of people take issue with how they rate their material, because there's no set standards.

Upon reviewing the video or DVD, the raters use their own judgment to recommend appropriate rating categories and content descriptors for the specific scenes and depictions reviewed and the game overall. ESRB staff checks the raters' recommendations for consensus, conducts a parity examination where appropriate to maintain consistency in rating assignments, and issues a certificate with the official rating assignment to the game publisher. The publisher may either accept the rating as final or revise the game's content and resubmit the game to the ESRB, at which time the process starts anew. Publishers also have the ability to appeal an ESRB rating assignment to an Appeals Board, which is made up of publishers, retailers and other professionals.

And if a software developer puts code in a game that they don't mention to ESRB, why, ESRB may REFUSE to give them a rating!! There's almost no teeth in their sanction process. Pay particular attention to the DATE mentioned in the paragraph below--it's what they did to avoid legislation, see:

As the game industry’s self-regulatory body, ESRB is responsible for the enforcement of its rating system. Every publisher of a game rated by the ESRB is legally bound, by contract, to disclose all pertinent content during the rating process, including, as of July 2005, content that may not be playable but will exist in the code on the final game disc (i.e. "locked out"). After a game is released, ESRB testers review both a random sample of games well as a number of hand-selected titles to verify that all pertinent content was fully disclosed. In the event of incomplete disclosure during the rating process which affected or could have affected the assignment of a rating or content descriptor, an ESRB enforcement action may be initiated, which could result in revocation of the original rating and the imposition of sanctions, including monetary fines. Corrective actions may also be required of the publisher to ensure that all future game packaging and advertising materials are accurate. Examples of corrective actions include the re-labeling of product inventory and unsold product at retail or, potentially, a product recall. Where warranted in order to ensure compliance with its directives, ESRB can suspend rating services altogether.....Although it does not have the legal authority to implement or enforce retailer sales policies with respect to computer and video games, the ESRB works closely with retailers and game centers to: a) provide in-store signage which explains the rating system; b) support their store policies pertaining to the sale or rental of Mature-rated games to minors; and c) help educate and train store associates and employees with regard to the rating system.

http://www.esrb.org/index-js.jsp

But, please, DO go on with your bad self...you're perspective is, clearly, the only one that matters. You're the arbiter. These folks with two jobs, bills to pay, sick grandparents they're caring for and way too much to do and no time to do it are just lazy, they should just be like you, and know everything about arcane shifting, non-mandated markings on video games--because if they don't, well, they're just "lazy."

Ummmm hmmmm.

[Zhade]

66. The label on the box is not hard to read.

You're the only one arguing that point.

It's already labeled. Tougher measures are not needed. Parents who cannot read the clearly-marked labels are lazy or stupid.

[MADem]

79. Again, no. And this whole thread, it turns out, is a big load of bullshit.

A two year old story and a legislative action that was tabled after ESRB took voluntary action, shopped around as a current events story by a political operative for purposes unknown.

Wheee.

[scrinmaster]

101. If you're going to spend $50 or so on a video game,

Take 5 minutes to do some research about what you're buying. Besides, any store that sells video games has a poster explaining the rating system, if you can tie your own shoelaces, you can figure it out.

Here's an example:

[citizen snips]

73. Parents have an obligation to do their own research.

There are gaming sites that provide screenshots,videos,and reviews about the game and it is not hard to find.

[Hippo_Tron]

88. My grandmother can't use a computer or program a VCR

But when I was a young teenager she could read the video game labels and know that the games marked E 6+, or T 13+ were appropriate for me, whereas the ones M 17+ were not appropriate for me. Thus I never got an M rated video game until I was old enough to drive and buy them myself.

If you take your kids to see an R rated movie and are stunned by foul language, graphic violence, or sex then you are an idiot for not looking at the large sign in the theater that says it is Rated R or not asking someone who works at the theater what the movie is rated.

[MADem]

8. Well, Tipper Gore did something VERY similar. Only with MUSIC. Should she be scorned, too?

Frank Zappa went after her with both barrels for wanting music with explicit lyrics labelled. She won, and it was, and the world didn't end then, either.

What the fuck is wrong with giving clueless parents a tool so that they know what sort of stuff their kids are playing? Must the parent sit down and play the damned game first?

I must say I am a bit surprised at the dripping scorn all over this thread. No one's suggesting banning these things; just ensuring that children aren't exposed through parental ignorance to material that is more appropriate for older people.

Hell, should we have fifth grade field trips to the NC-17 movies?

:shrug:

[progdonkey]

17. forcing a ratings change to AO is effectively banning it...

since most retailers won't stock games that are rated Adults Only (very similarly, very few movie theaters will show NC-17 rated movies), by forcing a change--as she wanted for GTA--you're basically removing it from the shelves just as if you officially banned it.

And the analogy with Gore and Zappa is different, since there already is a ratings system/parental advisory, alerting parents to the content of the games. Clinton wanted (and I presume still does, despite the article being two years old) to add criminal penalties to the ratings system, which is far beyond the parental advisory system on CDs, and would also effectively ban M-rated games, since it would entail so many legal headaches for the stores that they'd just stop stocking it (much as they already do with AO titles).

What Chimpsrsmarter wrote below that she is doing is exactly what parents should be doing: paying attention to the ratings and making choices for their kids based on it. The "Hot Coffee" issue is just political grandstanding, since it's not like it's a T-rated game that has this hidden sexual content. This is a game that is exceptionally violent, where you can go on killing sprees and your only punishment if you're caught by the police is to start the level again outside the police station with no weapons or money; where you can pick up a hooker, drive to a secluded spot, see your money amount decrease by $50 bucks, see your car rock a bit, watch the hooker get out of the car, and then go after her with a baseball bat, beat her to death, and take your money back. (Mind you, neither of those is the point of the game, or why they're popular--they all really do have very well-written stories and a great atmosphere, especially Vice City, which had the Miami Vice meets Scarface feel down perfectly.) If after all that, a little hidden, heavily-pixelated sex scene is what gets someone upset, he/she has much more serious problems!

[MADem]

23. Well, then those games would be sold over the net. Or kept in the glass case.

Or they'll have the big security tag on it. Or they'll be sold in a huge plastic box with a lock on it AND a security tag.

I mean, really--that's the same argument they used for "Explicit Lyrics" and gee, stores didn't stop stocking them, did they? And cigarettes--WE CARD. How hard is it to do that?

And is this two year old initiative law today? Why, I do not believe it is. I don't even think it's on the current legislative calendar.

But what I find unfortunate is a general attitude that parents who don't play XBox games, who don't understand the technology, who aren't up on the latest stuff, are somehow deficient and 'less than.'

I know a little about video games, and your description of Grand Theft Auto is news to me. I knew it was violent, but I didn't think there was an opportunity to kill virtual hookers in it.

I just think there is a tendency to be vicious to people who aren't "up" on the latest gadgets. It's too easy to blame the parents for not getting up to speed when they're working four jobs between the two of them to make ends meet. They are poor suckers, many of them, who want to give their kids a better life than they had, and it's impossible to do on one or two jobs. Even if they're trying to make sure their kids fit in with the rest of their peers, if they're overworked, if they just don't know.

And the fact that this issue was raised TWO WHOLE YEARS AGO really makes me wonder about the curious agenda of bringing it up again. I can't find anything on it recently. The thread reads like this happened yesterday if you don't check the dates.

It's pretty pathetic, frankly. And transparent. I don't like cheap shots, against any of the candidates, and this. I think, is one. IMO. It doesn't raise any other candidate up when old shit of questionable accuracy is dragged up and dressed up like it is new. It just raises questions. Like, why do that kind of stuff?

Frankly, I think they ALL can compete on real issues--like the war, the economy, the direction of the country. To try to make hay out of a two year old story is pretty lame.

But it does bring up other issues, like dealing with people kindly who aren't as tech-savvy as others. I get excoriated all the time for not having a cellphone. Fuck it. I don't want one, I don't need one. I've survived my entire life without one, except when I was forced to have one at work, and it's not a "must have" for me. Leave a fucking message, I'll get it when I get it--that's my attitude. I'm not at the beck and call of the phone--it serves ME, not the other way around.

Eventually, there will come a day when even the most rabid technofreak is left behind. It happens to EVERYONE. They get tired of keeping up and they settle down with their equivalent of their eight track and their vinyl albums in their dotage. They watch Lawrence Welk (or will it be American Idol reruns, who knows?). They'll pull their wrinkled skin to show their companions in the 'Home' their cool tattoos that they got seventy years earlier. The hardware will plop out of their piercings, which will stretch and thin with age. And young people will, as they always do, make fun of them, and that will say more about the people who are doing the ribbing than the folks enjoying their eight track equivalents.

When I was young, I thought I'd always be 'up' on the latest music. I was convinced of that 'fact' about myself. Now, I think most of the latest music is absolute crap performed by talentless bums who place a premium on (regardless of gender) appearing half naked to sell their wares--but all that skin doesn't cover for the fact that the pipes, even electronically manipulated, just stink.

But then, I'm an old fart, aren't I? Old farts aren't supposed to like the latest stuff... The Circle is Unbroken....

[progdonkey]

29. it's not really a matter of being tech-savvy...

There's been a rating system for maybe ten years that's modeled almost exactly on the movie system (E=G, T=PG/PG-13, M=R, AO=NC-17), so if someone can read the rating on a movie, they should be able to read and understand the rating on a game, without having to know anything about the game itself, what system it runs on, etc. I don't think it's too much to ask for parents to take the ten seconds to familiarize themselves with the rating system, and then do everything they can to make sure their kids are only playing the games that are at or below the rating they feel is proper. They won't be able to be absolutely sure, of course, but at least they'll be doing their part. I can't really have any sympathy for parents who don't care enough to take those ten seconds, yet expect the people who work at the game stores to know how old they're kids are and do their parenting for them. I frankly don't want to have to pay for shipping or have to go through extra hurdles to get a game I have every right to own just because some parents don't want to even bother reading the ratings that are right there on the games.

I'll agree about the two years old thing, though perhaps since she's a candidate, it's legitimate to bring up past things she's supported. Still, it would've been good for the OP to have mentioned that the article being linked to was two years old.

The tech-savvy thing I would think really only applies to the actual systems, like what's the difference between a PS2, PS3, Gamecube, XBox, XBox360, PCs, etc. That's where you can really just get easily confused if you're not totally up on everything. The games, though, should be thought of just like movies, only interactive, and understanding them requires just as much understanding as do movies. Indeed, computer games have become the primary entertainment source for my generation (25) and even older. Not because we're raised on TV and have fried brains, but because games have become very advanced and can offer storylines that are far deeper and much more open-ended than any movie or book and much more entertainment bang for your buck ($9 for a 1.5 hours at the theater, or $50 for 50 hours or more on your PC). Of course, that doesn't go for every game, of course, but just as a book can be either utter trash or the Odyssey, a game can be either Big Rigs: Over the Road Racing (see my comment above--if you click on the link and scroll down and click for the video, I swear you'll laugh at how bad it is, even if you don't know much about games) or God of War (just keeping with the Greek mode there, though that is a perfect example of a game that is very violent but for good reason, and yet has an amazing story and excellent narration, and it's M-rated). And, just as with books and movies, there are ones meant for kids, for teens, and for adults, and it would be just as pointless to prevent adults from having games made for adults because some kids might get their hands on it, as it would be to prevent adults from having books that might be unsuitable for kids.

Cigarettes are totally irrelevant to this, since games aren't just this unhealthy addictive drug. It's all entertainment, with all the inherent positives and negatives. Certainly, there are those cases of people getting addicted to the massive online games like Everquest or World of Warcraft, but every single case is of people who already have some pre-existing mental issues, which admittedly aren't helped by the games, but aren't caused at all by them. The real world is so miserable for them (whether actually or just in their perception), that the online world is preferable--if their real world weren't so miserable, that online world wouldn't be such a big deal.

I'm also not a big cell-phone person, so you're not alone there. I have one just in case I really have to get in touch with someone/emergency service, though it is also helpful when you're young and haven't bought a house, and you want to have a phone number that you can just take to any apartment (or dorm room) at any time and not deal with setting up a landline phone service.

Lastly, since we seem to have found ourselves in two separate conversations with each other on this one thread, can we just make this the only sub-thread that we'll continue on, if it all? Save some jumping around. ;-)

[MADem]

31. Well, the point about the cigarettes wasn't to equate the two, simply to demonstrate

that just because a product is age-limited, doesn't mean that a store has to stop selling it.

Honestly, I know people who just do not have a clue. They don't understand the TV ratings, they don't know how to use their V chip or their cable blocking capability, they are challenged by "the wand" (aka the remote). They think the XBOX games are CDs, the DVDs are video games, and they've no idea. The kid asks for something, the parent will even ask their equally clueless friend (who says "Oh yeah, I bought that for Billy") and the kid is off to the races.

In my large old house, we have a television from 1948. In our vacation home (sounds fancy but it isn't) we have an ancient 'record player' capable of playing 78 RPM records. We don't use the TV anymore (the round screen is a bit off-putting) but it still works--once they stop with the analog antennae broadcasts, we'll have to get the signal through a converter box' I suppose. The record player works just dandy. We have these things because relatives who have since gone on got tired of changing to the new technology, and took good care of these things.

I just don't think clueless parents are evil, especially when they're working their asses off trying to give the kid the things his friends have. Half of them are internet idiots, so they can't even look up what the kid is asking for online.

I wish store clerks would be kinder, more approachable, a bit more helpful to these folks. That might solve the problem--a little customer service. I won't hold my breath on that score though, unfortunately....

[Zhade]

46. Your last line is somewhat unfair, given that large displays in the stores...

...clearly explain - with pictures! - the rating system in use.

You're going to have to accept that a lot of parents buying these games are lazy assholes who think they are there to be waited on hand and foot, their obligations as parents notwithstanding.

[MADem]

51. Well, no, I am not going to accept that. Because plenty of clueless parents that I know are NOT

"lazy assholes." They want to get their child something that he will like, they want him to fit in with his peers, they want to be responsible, they just don't get the new technology. And they're working two jobs, so they don't have time to take "Gaming 101" in their spare time.

And I was in one of those stores just last week--no giant sign on display. Oh, well.

And 'waited on hand and foot?' It would be nice if clerks didn't cackle and laugh at these people for not knowing, on the rare occasion that they can get the attention of one. Then again, ya get what ya pay for, and I rather doubt those jobs pay all that well, else there wouldn't be as much turnover in them as there seems to be.

[Zhade]

67. If they can't take the time to read the easily-understood ratings...

...that are REQUIRED in every store, that's their problem.

[MADem]

81. At the time the proposed legislation was written, two years ago, the ratings weren't so clear.

They were made clear IN RESPONSE to this legislation, in order to obviate the need for it.

This thread is a load of horseshit, designed to throw mud at a candidate in a really sleazy fashion.

It's something that Obama would NOT go for -- he'd be appalled at this kind of tactic. I didn't see anything in his speech about telling old lies and half-truths about your opponents to rally your base, did you?

That is why this campaign can't only be about me. It must be about us - it must be about what we can do together. This campaign must be the occasion, the vehicle, of your hopes, and your dreams. It will take your time, your energy, and your advice - to push us forward when we're doing right, and to let us know when we're not. This campaign has to be about reclaiming the meaning of citizenship, restoring our sense of common purpose, and realizing that few obstacles can withstand the power of millions of voices calling for change.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2010400,00.html

[Zhade]

44. That's not the issue at all.

"But what I find unfortunate is a general attitude that parents who don't play XBox games, who don't understand the technology, who aren't up on the latest stuff, are somehow deficient and 'less than.'"

The argument is that they're deficient when they can't read an easily-seen, clearly-marked, nigh-impossible-to-misunderstand rating label right on the front of the box.

And they are. If they can't take the SECOND it takes to read and comprehend the rating label, and then get angry/push for bans/sue over THEIR incompetence as both parents and adults, FUCK THEM.

My best friend works for Activision, and lazy ignorance like theirs threatens her career when they push for restrictions based on their stupidity.

[MADem]

52. FUCK THEM, eh? Nice sentiment.

No one is suggesting BANNING anything--that's not a feature of this two year old proposal that hasn't been raised in, gee, two years.

You used to be able to wander into any vending area and buy cigarettes from a machine. This was back in the dark ages, see...and young kids had easy access to cigarettes. Now, they're behind a counter, and you have to show an ID to get them. But they're still sold. The 'cigarette world' didn't end, and that's notwithstanding the subsequent 'no smoking' rules in bars and restaurants.

So your 'friend' losing her job over limiting sales to minors of certain video game materials? I doubt it. She'd probably get MORE hours as a result of it, so someone could watch the counter where the age-limited material is. Or the game designers would put more effort into games that are appropriate for teens and below.

One day, I promise you--it WILL happen to you. You will be overtaken by technology. You won't be buying the latest and greatest thing every week, because you'll have other priorities, or your income will be needed for other purposes, or you just will decide that you don't need all that crap.

I hope people are kinder to you than you seem to be to them when it happens.

[Zhade]

68. Excuse me - when I say friend, it's not a fucking lie.

Kindly don't mock my friendship.

And if tech overtakes me, guess what? I'll remember my responsibility to INFORM MYSELF.

[ButterflyBlood]

20. Yes, I also disliked that

I despise moralistic censoring nannies.

[keroro gunsou]

36. MAD-dem-dono....

there is a content rating system in place already. again, parents try to use video games as something they are not: a babysitter. video games are entertainment, an older brother or sister is a babysitter.

parental ignorance is not the problem, it's their laziness.

[MADem]

53. Of course there is a system in place. It isn't WORKING, that's the point.

I am telling you, I KNOW parents who are NOT lazy. They're involved with their kids, they try to do right by them, but the system is just not as transparent as you seem to want to insist that it is. Because if it WERE that obvious, there wouldn't be an issue, would there?

The rating system isn't as clear for some of these non-computer literate, and non-game box literate, parents as you want to believe it is. Because if it were, there wouldn't be efforts to make it more user-friendly.

But hey, it's easier to call them all "lazy" I guess. That's an unfortunate and common invective used to separate out a group of people that one wants to perceive as "less than." We've seen it used throughout history...nothing changes, I guess.

[Zhade]

69. It's right on the box. You can't get clearer than that.

NT!

[MADem]

91. But it wasn't when the legislation---the OLD legislation that has since been tabled--was proposed.

This whole thread is a BS ploy about old news. The new AO label and the division of the E ranking was a result of this proposed legislation.

[AlCzervik]

9. no but i'm for a ratings system, i have a daughter that has a playstation 2

and it is helpful to me when she's buying a game or i'm buying one for her. she's 12 1/2 but at my house it's either "E" for everyone or it's nothing, yeah i'm probably not the funniest mom on the block but i'd like my daughter to just be 12 while she is 12.

[southerncrone]

11. I vote we get rid of video games altogether. They are major contributors to the

child obesity problem this country faces, as well as a diversion from doing homework, chores, etc. that kids need to focus on. TV is bad enough, add video games & together they spell disaster.

Just stating my opinion. Ok, I'm ready for the flaming to begin. I won't respond, but you can go ahead & state yours.

:nuke:

[MADem]

14. I strongly disagree. I think we should do better with the technology.

Put the Wii on steroids, as it were. Make kids PEDAL for racing games, run on a treadmill and jump to get over obstacles on the screen, physicallly have to push against resistance to use controls, like rowing, and force them to actually use their muscles in order to interact with the game.

There ARE a few good ones--that DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION thing with the colored pad they jump on gets the kids up off their asses. The game designers just need to KEEP GOING, and make virtual reality more of a reality.

[Hippo_Tron]

95. Ironically, DDR has existed since the original Nintendo Entertainment System

http://nindb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/nes/ae.shtml

The game was called Dance Aerobics and it had a pad very similar to the ones used for DDR. Sure, they didn't have the catchy music and the arrows flying across the screen are easier to see, but the technology has been around for ages. The NES also had a track game that required you to run in place and jump for the hurdles. Subsequent systems haven't had these interactive features and that's probably due to the fact that they were ahead of their time.

To be fair to the kids, though, it's not always their desire to play video games that keeps them indoors. When I was younger I always wanted to go play with my friends unsupervised in the park. My parents would always tell me about how I could do that back when they were kids but that I can't because there's crime now. I would've taken riding a bike or climbing a tree with my friends over a video game any day, but because I always needed parental supervision it wasn't nearly as appealing.

[progdonkey]

21. you're assuming that only kids play games...

Video and computer games have become a bigger industry than the film industry in the last few years, because the games have become so advanced--both graphically and narratively--that adults (many of whom grew up with the more simple video games of yesteryear) are choosing games over movies for entertainment. Honestly, try any of the Call of Duty games, and you'll find an experience that rivals Saving Private Ryan in bringing the horror of WWII to you. The GTA series gets a lot of grief for its heavy violence, but it's just as violent--and just as narratively complex--as the Sopranos, Scarface, Goodfellas, etc., because that's its milieu.

We left the era of "video games are a mindless, storyless diversion for kids" about fifteen years ago.

[MADem]

25. You know that commercial that used to run that showed two oldsters

bathed in the light of a TV screen with serious, intent expressions on their faces? As the camera pans back, you see that they have game controls in their hands and they're battling one another.

I know a couple of seventy year olds like that, who grabbed the grandson's old XBOX and games when the kid upgraded. "Oh, we'll keep it here for our grandkids" they say, and they're always screwing with the thing themselves. It's kinda funny.

And I know quite a few folks between forty and sixty who enjoy games on the computer as well.

[Greyhound]

33. Then I think that you should not allow your kids to play them.

What is this compulsion that so many Americans have with forcing their opinions on others? It is the very antithesis of what America was supposed to be about.

I see no difference between your advocating a ban on video games, and the anti-choice morans wanting to ban abortion. It simply is none of your business.
:silly:

[Forkboy]

34. Some stats for you

TOP 10 INDUSTRY FACTS

1. US computer and video game software sales grew six percent in 2006 to $7.4 billion – almost tripling industry software sales since 1996.

2. Sixty-nine percent of American heads of households play computer and video games.

3. The average game player is 33 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.

4. The average age of the most frequent game buyer is 40 years old. In 2006, 93 percent of computer game buyers and 83 percent of console game buyers were over the age of 18.


5. Eighty-five percent of all games sold in 2005 were rated "E" for Everyone, "T" for Teen, or "E10+" for Everyone 10+. For more information on ratings, please see www.esrb.org.


6. Eighty-seven percent of game players under the age of 18 report that they get their parents’ permission when renting or buying games, and 89 percent say their parents are present when they buy games.

7. Thirty-five percent of American parents say they play computer and video games. Further, 80 percent of gamer parents say they play video games with their kids. Sixty-six percent feel that playing games has brought their families closer together.


8. Thirty-eight percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (30%) than boys age 17 or younger (23%).


9. In 2005, 25 percent of Americans over the age of 50 played video games, an increase from nine percent in 1999.

10. Forty-four percent of game players say they play games online one or more hours per week. In addition, 32 percent of heads of households play games on a wireless device, such as a cell phone or PDA, up from 20 percent in 2002.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/top_10_facts.php

emphasis mine.

[ToeBot]

40. "Open your mind, and shut your mouth." ???

Surely you meant, "Sit down, shut up and do what I say."

[Zhade]

47. A completely ignorant opinion at that.

Try looking at the high-fructose corn syrup in EVERYTHING you buy - that's the shit killing us, not games.

[ButterflyBlood]

49. Probably the most authoritarian view I've ever seen on this forum

Don't like something? Let's go ahead and ban it. It's for the greater good! Yes, we've heard this before...

[Hippo_Tron]

96. Kids would spend more time playing outside if they could do so safely

As I stated above, my parents always told me how back when they were kids they could do play outside with their friends unsupervised because there was no crime back then. Kids today don't have that luxury and having to have constant parental supervision takes the fun out of a lot of things. Personally, I would've played outside with my friends for hours every day after school if I could've done so without my parents having to be within sight.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

27. It's not what her opponent goes for, that's for sure--that kind of carping

Poor Senator Obama--he has vision, energy, and he's on the high road, and some of his supporters just are NOT helping him at all. Ya gotta ask yourself, what's up with that?

Here's what he said at the outset, I found this indeed most inspiring, though I remain undecided at this point. I sure can't get why people who claim to support the man aren't 'on his team' and following the lead he described so eloquently in his launch speech:

This is not a game. This can't be about who digs up more skeletons on who, who makes the fewest slip-ups on the campaign trail. We owe it to the American people to do more than that. We owe them an election where voters are inspired–where they believe that we might be able to do things that we haven't done before. We don't want another election where voters are simply holding their noses and feel like they're choosing the lesser of two evils. So we've got to rise up out of the cynicism that's become so pervasive and ask the people all across America to start believing again.

It's the old "With friends like this, who needs enemies" approach--wittingly or unwittingly. At least, that's how it plays to me. I'm not "inspired" to turn away from Clinton as a consequence of this old legislative proposal. Or to turn towards Obama, or Edwards, or Richardson, as a result of this information. It's not working. I'm still gonna wait for the debates, and make up my mind when I actually see them all on their feet, duking it out.

There's bigger fish to fry in the world today than putting ratings on video games, frankly. There's more important topics than two year old legislation that's been shoved in a drawer somewhere.

[MonkeyFunk]

26. You're nothing if not predictable

I'll say that about you.

[qdemn7]

30. A Federal Crime??

Oh yes, please do that, create ANOTHER part of the USC. That will give our poor under-worked FBI and US Attorney's something to do, investigating and prosecuting Video Game Store Employees. Got to make sure those US Government employees are earning their paycheck. :eyes:

[Hippo_Tron]

32. Estes Kefauver did the same thing with comic books

And politicians in the 1960's did it with rock music. Politicians will always try to exploit controversy for their own gain, it's the nature of politics.

[Zhade]

38. Wow, some people here are pro-censorship.

What an authoritarian mindset that reveals!

[ButterflyBlood]

48. sad but true n/t

[MADem]

59. Who here is "pro censorship?" No one. Just because people would like

clear markings and limits on access to content for younger consumers doesn't make them "authoritarian." No one is talking about BANNING anything, which is what censorship does.

Sure, why not let the five year smoke a cigar and play Grand Theft Auto...

I mean, come on. That's just, well, childish.

[ButterflyBlood]

62. THERE ARE CLEAR MARKINGS ON THE GAMES

Anyone who thinks there isn't clearly has no clue what they're arguing about.

[Zhade]

70. I wonder how some people decide what movies to watch.

I mean, that rating system is just as hard to understand.

:eyes:

Jesus - IT'S ON THE BOX. You know?

[MADem]

77. If they were so clear, no one would have complained, would they?

And those CLEAR MARKINGS you are shouting about were CHANGED to be clearer shortly after the time this legislation was first proposed. When the upgraded markings went into effect, the legislation was put to the side.

That would be TWO YEARS AGO.

Of course, you sorta forgot to mention all that, the better to get people riled.

Go start another thread about how bad another one of Obama's opponents are, why don't ya? Dig up something on, say, Edwards this time, for a change, eh? Try to make it a bit more factual than this lame effort. And maybe a shade more contemporary.

You aren't helping Senator Obama at all, though you think you are.

Your slash-and-burn tactics are all about everything that he abhors.

[Zhade]

71. Check the yes votes before stating something that's not factual.

Some voted yes - that IS pro-censorship.

Not to mention a poster upthread DID call for a ban.

[MADem]

92. A single person suggested banning all video games.

That's not a bunch of people. That was one person who said they did not like them because they made kids fat, in the posters' opinion--not because of ratings. There's no great move to censor here.

[meldroc]

41. Hell no. There's too much censorship in the industry already.

If the parent's can't figure out what the big bold M on the box means when they buy a game for 10 year old Johnny, they're too stupid to be allowed to reproduce. Not my problem. I'm not giving up First Amendment rights for myself or game developers just so people who are too dumb to understand ratings can keep their kids from seeing some gore or pointy bits. Learn the ratings system. It's not that hard. You don't have to let your kids play M rated games if you don't want to. That's all you get.

It's not like I didn't see blood and guts and sex organs when I was a kid. The tykes will survive the experience.

[Yukari Yakumo]

50. My 2 cents

Hill will probably avoid this issue like the plague. Or at least she should. Mainly for one reason, this issue almost always backfires. Just ask Tipper.

And she'd better hope her rivals doesn't try to bring it up. It wouldn't take much to paint her as a Big Brother type of politician, and that would cost her liberal and independent votes than it would gain conservative votes.

[MADem]

60. This whole thread, though, is based on a lie.

What you said is cogent--that bit about her RIVALS bringing the issue up. That is what is happening here, see?

The proposed legislation was written two years ago. The ESRB responded to the concerns that produced the proposed laws with the ratings system that we see today, that they are STILL working on because it's got holes in it big enough to drive a truck through (arbitrary ratings, no enforcement capability, not everyone on board) but the reason they did that was to give Congress a reason to shove that legislation in a drawer and forget about it.

This is not on any front burner on the Hill. The sole purpose of the thread was to throw some poop at a Presidential candidate.

But that's just how some people roll...it's really unimpressive.

[Solon]

64. The ESRB ratings system has been around since 1994...

It is comparable to the other, more well known, voluntary rating system the MPAA, however, unlike the MPAA, which is an industry association that ALL major movie studios signed up to, and also controls which movie theaters get which movies, the ESRB doesn't have that type of power. For over a decade, the ESRB has existed, and most major game studios and distributors have used the system since it was established, however, they still don't have the control of the MPAA. Mostly this is because, up until recently, most retailers did not enforce the system that the ESRB has been using.

Most commercial games use retailers, department stores, malls, and video game stores, as a means to reach customers, and most of these store did NOT enforce the ESRB ratings. A child could theoretically go in and buy an M rated game anytime they wanted, and the ESRB, nor Game makers themselves, could do anything about it. Now, at least, the system is slowly but surely being enforced by many retailers, some of the largest department stores are beginning to enforce it, and even the small game shops are also beginning to enforce it.

Of course, the interactive nature of games themselves also is a problem, and makes things more complicated, in addition to additional things, such as hidden "Easter Eggs" or unused portions of data or code that the ESRB and most customers never access. There are also free games on the Internet which are never reviewed by the ESRB nor can they be. When any chump with a computer and some programming skills can make a game, its rather hard to keep track of that.

While, in the case of Rockstar a couple of years ago, had some blame, particularly in saying the "Hot Coffee" mod was NEVER a part of the game, this certain flap cannot condemn an entire industry, no more so than the nude image found in "The Rescuers". Should we say that the MPAA should have raised the rating of a G rated movie like the Rescuers because of that image, one that cannot be seen without using a Digital player?

Of course, while I agree that bringing this up now is somewhat disingenuous towards Hillary, and less so towards Holy Joe, who deserves the lion's share of criticism. I do find it disconcerting that such blatantly Unconstitutional legislation is ever considered by any Congressperson. All legislation that attempts to regulate the content of video games or movies has been overturned in the courts, both at the state and federal level. Shouldn't there be a time when the government should just give up on stuff like this, and instead rely on public pressure and education to win out?

[MADem]

74. Yes, but they moved to get more precise with the AO rating in RESPONSE to this proposed legislation

That ESRB website I noted upthread tells us how much teeth they have, which ain't much.

But at least they're moving in the right direction. That legislation was tabled because all it was, really, was a bit of that "public pressure" you mentioned. It got the ball rolling after it had sorta rolled to a stop.

The real point, though, is in your last paragraph--this is not actually about those games at all, it's about trying to do exactly the opposite of what Senator Obama has been talking about--and that's just not helping him. He doesn't want to win by trashing others; he wants to make his case, state his ideas, and win it on the merits. I don't understand why some people don't 'get' that--and instead, persist in this bullshit game of posting half-truth threads about his opponents. You'd almost think they were hired by the opposition--they sure aren't boosting his campaign at all with these nonsensical and easily debunked shenanigans.

[Solon]

89. Actually, one of the biggest criticisms of the ESRB is similar to what critics say of the MPAA...

That both are far too lenient towards violence in their ratings, while at the same time far too strict on sex/nudity. This could be just a reflection of our culture, but the fact of the matter is that a game like GTA: San Andreas is quite violent, yet THAT didn't cause it to get an AO rating, no it was clothed sex(the original code, left in the game, had no nudity), which is quite tame compared to movies of "R" rating or so, which would be equivalent to the "M" rating in games.

As far as the system being arbitrary, of course it is, there is no objective way to judge violence or age appropriate material except through arbitrary means. Its actually quite subjective, and systems like the ESRB or MPAA ratings should be considered rough guides as to content, rather than some objective, exact standard. If anything, games like GTA: San Andreas, which on the gore/violence level aren't any worse than movies like 300 or most action movies, especially of the Coppola or Rodriguez type, shouldn't have really had a "bump up" of its rating level just because of a mini-game of simulated sex.

The biggest problem is that there is still a perception that video games are "for kids only", rather than considering them as a general entertainment medium similar to movies, music and even books. The fact of the matter is that the largest video game playing demographic are people between the ages of 17-35. Because of this erroneous perception, some politicians, hoping to earn some brownie points with the "protect the children" craziness that grips the nation at certain times in its history, end up overreaching.

[MADem]

90. I agree with everything you've noted. You've got an accurate perception of the issues and the

realities.

[Zhade]

72. Your entire post is based on erroneous assumptions.

For example, the ratings sytem has been in place much longer than you state.

EVERY game sold REQUIRES a rating - so every game company IS on board.

[MADem]

82. You aren't reading what I am writing. I realize ESRB has been around since

the nineties...they used to have a KA rating (Kid to Adult) in fact.

What I am saying is that the ratings system was changed IN RESPONSE TO THIS proposed--not enacted--legislation. This proposed law was a push to ESRB to get off their asses and police themselves, which they did.

The AO rating came about as a result of it.

And you are wrong about the REQUIREMENT for a rating on all games. There IS no requirement. No law about it one way or another.

The entire structure is VOLUNTARY. Read the ESRB site. They have no enforcement capability. The companies that make games enter into a VOLUNTARY contract agreement with ESRB, because it can increase sales if they get the 'right' rating for the game in question. Some genres like the more mature ratings, others benefit from the E...it depends on the subject matter of the game.

[SaveElmer]

76. Shouldn't this thread really be on the...

"Stupid and Irrelevant Topic already discussed to death" Board...?

[mtnsnake]

84. Careful

or your post will be deleted, too, just like mine was for asking practically the same question.

Here we are well into 2007 and we're still harping on the same article from July of 2005...AND making sure to get a dig into Hilary about it at the same time. Can't just get on Lieberman without making it about Hillary, you know.

[MADem]

93. I do believe you have a point!!

It really should be in the two-year-old archives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BreweryYardRat]

85. Hell no.

If parents would actually take two fucking seconds to read the description of why a game got the rating it did and make an educated judgement on their kid's ability to handle it, there'd be a lot less complaints.

For example, one of my favorite games is Hitman: Blood Money, where you play a contract killer. It got an M for (if memory serves) "strong violence throughout, strong language, drug use, and sexual innuendo." Not what I'd consider appropriate for anyone under 15 or so, and before the "legal" age of 17, I'd damn well consider if my kid was mature enough to play a game like that.

[NormanYorkstein]

86. Wow that's an objective poll

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

87. Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Joe Lieberman Join ESRB

Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Joe Lieberman Join ESRB to Launch Nationwide Video Game Ratings TV PSA Campaign

Best Buy and GameStop Team Up With Rating Board For Public Awareness Campaign
(December 7, 2006)



(WASHINGTON, D.C.) - U.S. Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) and Joe Lieberman (I-CT) today joined Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB) president Patricia Vance on Capitol Hill to launch a new nationwide television PSA campaign that encourages parents to use the video game ratings when buying games for their children. Best Buy president Brian Dunn and GameStop president Steve Morgan appear in the PSAs, affirming their respective company’s commitment to support the ESRB ratings and their store policy not to sell Mature rated games to children under 17 without their parents permission.

--

"I continue to be concerned about the impact on minors of playing violent video games intended for older players. Thus, I am very pleased that the ESRB and the retailers are taking these positive steps to reach out to parents to educate them about the rating system,” said Senator Lieberman. “I have long said that the ESRB ratings are the most comprehensive in the media industry. There are many age-appropriate games that are clever and entertaining. Parents should understand and use the ratings to help them decide which video games to buy for their families."

--

The ESRB video game rating system was created in 1994 by the entertainment software industry in order to provide consumers, particularly parents, with information about the computer and video games they consider purchasing for their family. Virtually every game sold at retail carries an ESRB rating. Consumer research shows that 83% of American parents with children who play video games are aware of the ratings, and three in four use them regularly when choosing which games they deem appropriate for their children.

http://www.esrb.org/about/news/12072006.jsp


Slightly more recent anyways.

[MADem]

94. Yes, and no mention of ANY legislation! Because it was tabled as ESRB cleaned their own house.

But hey, easier to toss two year old mud, I guess........

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

97. If it's got nothing to do with legislation...

why are two senators even involved?

[MADem]

98. The legislation was the "threat" two years ago to get ESRB to act on their own.

It worked.

[Forkboy]

99. I was just posting the most recent thing they had on this.

[The Gunslinger]

100. I think the rating system is good now.

I understand it and so does my 6yr old.