Oh Boy!! Ralph Nader is threating to get in the race if Hillary wins the dem nomination

[bigdarryl]

He stated she's a BAD version of Bill Clinton. WOW!!http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,252392,00.html
FOXNews.com - Ralph Nader Says He Might Run in 2008 if Hillary Clinton Wins the Nomination - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum

[David Zephyr]

1. He'd make a better president than her any day of the week.

Good for Ralph.

[DainBramaged]

8. Really, is Bush better than Hillary?

He's the reason we're stuck with asswipe Bush. You Nader fools will never get it.:eyes:

[David Zephyr]

29. You are a funny one. I'll be laughing all weekend.

Signed, your devoted Nader "fool". Ha!

[DaveinMD]

89. what's so funny

Nader gave us Bush instead of Gore.

[Clark2008]

147. No he didn't.

Nader only got 20,000 votes in Tennessee, not enough to have offset Gore's loss. If Gore had won his home state - my state - then he wouldn't have needed Florida.

Gore "lost" because the media hounded him relentlessly with made up stories about inventing the Internet and Love Story and called him boring and spoke of Earth tones. Gore "lost" because the Supreme Court refused to count all the ballots.

Gore didn't really lose and Nader had nothing to do with it.

I also believe Nader's running won't make a difference to HRC should she be the nominee. She'll lose with or without him.

[DainBramaged]

111. How did Ralphie work out for you? Happy with Bush?

[Joe Bacon]

120. Let's ask the 3,133 families of dead soldiers if they love Ralph Nader!

Yep, I got a feeling they're not gonna be members of the Ralph Nader Fan Club.

[DainBramaged]

129. Stop now, If GORE had not been nerfed by Ralphie

we wouldn't be talking about the dead in Iraq. How loathsome.

[Forkboy]

132. Eeeeesh

:eyes:

[focusfan]

38. Your Right

I believe the repukes pay that Nader jerk to run.

[pnwmom]

58. They absolutely do. They donate to his campaigns and give him

lots of assistance.

[Greyhound]

93. Nader Schmader. The idea that so many here advocate, trying to dictate

what an American citizen do with their sacred vote, is frankly appalling.

If we do our job right, he is completely irrelevant. Instead of a scapegoat, let's try searching for our own potential weakness and inadequacies, and then address them. Nader is a one issue "candidate", and IMO it is the issue from which all the others arise, so why not deal with it?

[Clark2008]

148. EXACTLY!

For the record, I was a Gore supporter from way back. I voted for Gore in his home state of Tennessee. I supported Gore whole-heartedly.

But, I fail to see how Nader has any effect on anything.

People shouldn't tell others not to run and they shouldn't tell others not to vote for who they think would be a better president. It's totally undemocratic and unDemocratic.

If Democrats would stop letting the media pick their nominee, then we wouldn't have a fucking problem with ANY third-party candidate. Dems will win when we get back to our populist roots.

[Greyhound]

165. Indeed, the "loony left" has, throughout history, always been right

and that has not changed. But for some reason, despite all the evidence, we consistently side with the nay sayers and those pushing an agenda destined to fail them. Just how many kinds of stupid are there?:shrug:

[William769]

22. Let me take a stab in the dark.

You voted for him in 2000?

[David Zephyr]

31. Check the archives, sweetheart.

Your crystal ball is cracked, dear.

[William769]

35. My balls aren't crystal, but thanks for asking.

I said take a stab in the dark. Your original comment is laughable at least, disingenuous at most.

[David Zephyr]

77. Your mind is in the gutter. And your post is pathetic.

Don't use my posts to fixate on your genitalia in public. Creepy!

[William769]

82. Your the one that called me sweetie.

[DaveinMD]

24. yeah good

let's elect another Republican. That'll show them. Ralph hasn't done anything constructive in 20 years.

[David Zephyr]

33. He didn't vote to make war with Iraq and he didn't attack John Murtha

the way Mrs. Clinton did.

3,000 young Americans are dead, over 1 million Iraqi civilians are dead (hundreds of thousands of children) and you want to lecture me about Hillary Clinton?

Tell her to apologize to John Murtha and then come back to me about this woman.

[William769]

39. She has nothing to apologize for.

[papau]

67. I agree - I can't recall a word that Hillary said that was insulting Murtha n/t

n/t

[havocmom]

40. Would all that have happened if Nader hadn't split votes in 2000?

And just how much GOP money DID he take back then?

[David Zephyr]

45. I doubt that Nader ever has taken 1/10% of the corp. money the Clintons have.

Please.

[William769]

46. Doesn't need the Cooperations money with the RNC behind him.

[David Zephyr]

53. Murdoch is behind Hillary. I guess your anger is selective.

WELFARE "REFORM": Bill Clinton's gift to the poor in America. Some progressive.

NAFTA. Bill Clinton's gift to the American worker.

KYOTO ACCORDS: Bill Clinton's thumbed nose to the environment.

DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL: Bill Clinton's award to American soldiers and Marines who are gay and lesbian.

WORKING TO REMOVE HOWARD DEAN FROM CHAIR OF THE DNC: Bill Clinton's love for the Democratic Party.

Your post was about Nader taking corporate money. I responded and then you changed your argument.

No one supported his presidency more than me, but I am not in his cult.

[William769]

56. Just so we are clear on this, I didn't and still don't have a problem with Bill Clinton.

My post wasn't about Nader taking corporate money your was about the Clintons taking corporate money. Just so we are clear on that.

BTW I would rather have them take corporate money than from the RNC any day. Also Murdoch giving money to a Dem I don't have a problem with. He's corporate.

[papau]

70. Murdoch is behind Hillary? He allowed staff to hold a breakfast fundraiser - and said

he was supporting the GOP. Maybe because it was held in the News Corp building and he actually showed up, she is now a GOP candidate? How the hell that became Murdoch is a supporting Hillary for president I will never understand. Last I looked, he had not even contributed one dime to her campaign so far.

Nader was a GOP candidate in the last 2 Presidential elections, receiving only, more or less, GOP, petition support and money. At least Lieberman votes left on social and union issues, as he takes GOP money and votes. What is Nader's redeemimg quality? - that he says the Dems shouldn't govern because things must get worse before a 3rd party that is "real change" is viable? Does anyone not believe that Bush was "real change" from Clinton in 2000? Thanks Ralph.

Nader's wishing that things will get worse in America does not make him a hero - in my opinion.

[havocmom]

102. Nader reminds me of the fundies who want to hurry the end of times along

for their own demented reasons. He wants things to get bad enough and he will do what he can to make sure they do get worse.

THAT is not the sign of a progressive, is it? Seems a lot of Nader-ites just can't accept their part in the split vote that made the bush steal possible in 2000.

Blame a Clinton--- damn, I get tired of GOP and their shills doing that, don't you? ;)

[papau]

113. I agree - Nader's making things worse so they will get better is not progressive or liberal - it's

just backing the GOP.

:-(

[sabbat hunter]

171. clinton

welfare reform: actually did help. it added job training to get people off of welfare, changed some to workfare. nothing wrong with that in my book. if you need welfare you can still get it

NAFTA. many liberals, including myself, thought it would be good

KYOTO accords, bill clinton signed the accords, bush torn them up
dont ask dont tell. was far better than what was previously. he wanted more but couldnt get it at the time. sometimes comprimises must be made

nader is horrible at this point he ran in 2004 to feed his own ego and may do it again in 08.

[havocmom]

64. So, he's a GOP tool

what part of that don't we all understand? And the GOP worked pretty damned hard for the CORPORATIONS

Oh, some of us DO understand.

Let's see: GOP ruled the Hill and the Oval gave us war and enriched corporations

DEMS taking the Hill gave us a raise in the minimum wage and a slew of energy for investigations.

Hmmm, which is better for the nation and world? :think:

Nader = GOP stays on top.

Ralph is a jerk interested in grinding an axe instead of working toward progressives real positions of power.

[Canuckistanian]

66. No, of course not - he sells out cheap

If there's anything I detest more than a sell-out, it's a cheap, low-budget, toadying sell-out.

Ralph has provided NOTHING to the national discourse. He only shows up at election time to "shake up the system", while providing NO alternative concepts, no popular movement, no organizational skills or background research.

Ralph is all about Ralph.

Any rejoinders?

[havocmom]

101. AH, degrees?

Interesting. OK to hollar about so-and-so taking such-and-such, but when it's pointed out the same is true with the White Knight, we start making excuses?

I see.

So, corporate $$? Good or bad or it all depends on who cashes checks?

How about it depends on the results? Who gives what back? Who's dying on the vine campaign keeps going long enough to have an impact, a small one, but a meaningful impact: bush close enough to make the steal in 2000?

Was Hillary responsible for THAT?

Hey, I'm not crazy for the woman as a nominee, but damn, was 2000 her fault or did Ralph have more to do with that one?

Have a good life.

[Joe Bacon]

123. Nader got most of his 2004 money from his corporate pals!

Read it and weep

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/09/MNGQQ7J31K1.DTL

[Clark2008]

149. Nader didn't win enough votes in ANY state to have effected

the outcome.

For example, Nader only won 20,000 votes in Tennessee - not enough to have off-set Gore's loss in his home state. If those 20,000 had voted for Gore - and I doubt all of them would have anyway - he STILL wouldn't have had enough to carry Tennessee.

And, let's not forget, if Gore had won his home state, he'd be president regardless of what happened in Florida and with the Supreme Court.

Nationally, Nader's total vote count might have made a difference, but that's not how we elect presidents. We elected them state-by-state with the winner-take-all Electoral College system.

Want to both protect Dem nominees in close states (Gore only lost Tennessee by 3 percentage points)? Then work to either abolish the Electoral College system or change it so that it's more representative of the popular vote (for example, Gore would have gotten 5 of Tennessee's 11 EC votes if we divvied up EC votes by the percentage of the popular vote).

[rinsd]

55. Hillary Clinton attacked John Murtha? When?

[pnwmom]

61. He ran hard in Florida in 2000 and insisted Gore was as bad as Bush.

He deserves no one's respect now.

His organization benefits financially from having a bad President in office -- donations go up. That's why he's happy to have had Bush for the last 8 years. And why he's determined to help the Repubs again.

[DaveinMD]

88. Nader

got Bush elected in the first place. That gave us this war.

[Joe Bacon]

122. GREEN = Getting Republicans Elected Every November!

Republicans LOVE to give a lot of green to the Greens!

[LoZoccolo]

34. I have more hearts than you do.

This is because less people like you.

[havocmom]

41. Could also mean you spent $5 or more

:shrug:

[David Zephyr]

81. Ah, now you've made me cry.

You are so cruel. Boo hoo.

[Forkboy]

133. Wow

I'm really hoping your post was in some kind of jest,because this is truly on the freshman high school level of thinking.Maybe next we can compare penis sizes to see who's correct on the issues too.

[MadHound]

152. Naw, it's not even up to freshman level

Most kids drop that kind of thinking and reasoning by the time they hit third grade. Sadly though, it seems that a distinct group of people fail to mature either cognitively or emotionally. Sad and pathetic really.

[terisan]

36. As I recall Nader thought overturning Roe vs. Wade was ok

I think, as a woman, I'd rather hang on to my rights.

Did he get Republican donations when he ran?

What can you cite about him that would make him a better president ?

[David Zephyr]

42. Here's how: I-R-A-Q.

[havocmom]

44. We might not have had bush to send us into I-R-A-Q

if ol Ralph hadn't cashed those checks from the GOP that kept him in the race to split vote

[William769]

47. Touche!

[David Zephyr]

63. Which is why Hillary supported the war in Iraq and attacked Murtha.

Terrific logic.

[DainBramaged]

112. She NEVER attacked Murtha, find us the quote and then spew

Lies and falshoods, just like our feinds at FAUX news.

[ProudDad]

Didn't get any money from the GOP

Check your facts...

[ProudDad]

73. You're wrong.

Time to get your facts straight:

The Nader Program:

Nader stands for:

* universal health care
* a $10/hour living wage
* the abolition of the death penalty
* equal rights for gays and lesbians
* for a woman's right to choose
* an end to corporate hegemony in politics
* the repeal of Taft Hartley (anti-union law)
* getting rid of the WTO, the World Bank and the Imperialist Monetary Front (IMF)
* making it easier to organize unions

I repeat: FOR A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE. FOR A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

What part of this don't you agree with???

How much of this agenda do you think the Dems will pass???

----------------------------------------------

As for the bullshit about Nader getting RNC money:

"The Nader campaign contended that the donations it received were given by "people who agree with him on the issues and want him to get his message out to the public." Nader also responded to such claims by pointing out that Democratic opponent John Kerry received $10.7 million dollars from donors who also contributed to Bush or to some other Republican candidate - nearly 100 times that of the $111,700 Nader received."

----------------------------------------------

Here's a list of some of the evil he has been responsible for over the years: :sarcasm:

Non-profit organizations

In 1980, Nader resigned as director of Public Citizen to work on other projects, especially campaigning against what he believed to be the dangers of large multinational corporations. He went on to start a variety of non-profit organizations:

* Capitol Hill News Service
* Citizen Advocacy Center
* Congress Accountability Project
* Consumer Task Force For Automotive Issues
* Corporate Accountability Research Project
* Disability Rights Center
* Equal Justice Foundation
* Foundation for Taxpayers and Consumer Rights
* Georgia Legal Watch
* National Citizens' Coalition for Nursing Home Reform
* National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
* Pension Rights Center
* PROD (truck safety)
* Retired Professionals Action Group
* The Shafeek Nader Trust for the Community Interest
* 1969: Center for the Study of Responsive Law
* 1970s: Public Interest Research Groups
* 1970: Center for Auto Safety
* 1970: Connecticut Citizen Action Group
* 1971: Aviation Consumer Action Project
* 1972: Clean Water Action Project
* 1972: Center for Women's Policy Studies
* 1980: Multinational Monitor (magazine covering multinational corporations)
* 1982: Trial Lawyers for Public Justice
* 1982: Essential Information (encourage citizen activism and do investigative journalism)
* 1983: Telecommunications Research and Action Center
* 1983: National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
* 1989: Princeton Project 55 (alumni public service)
* 1993: Appleseed Foundation (local change)
* 1994: Resource Consumption Alliance (conserve trees)
* 1995: Center for Insurance Research
* 1995: Consumer Project on Technology
* 1997?: Government Purchasing Project (encourage the government to purchase safe and healthy products)
* 1998: Center for Justice and Democracy
* 1998: Organization for Competitive Markets
* 1998: American Antitrust Institute (ensure fair competition)
* 1999?: Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest
* 1999?: Commercial Alert (protect family, community, and democracy from corporations)
* 2000: Congressional Accountability Project (fight corruption in Congress)
* 2001?: League of Fans (sports industry watchdog)
* 2001: Citizen Works (promote NGO cooperation, build grassroots support, and start new groups)
* 2001: Democracy Rising (hold rallies to educate and empower citizens)


Oh, the humanity...

[pnwmom]

57. He's the brainiac who said there was no difference between Gore and Bush.

Nader's obviously not smart enough to make a good President. We can't take any more years of having a narcissistic idiot in the White House.

[LynneSin]

153. So you really loved these last 8 years of George W. Bush

You can thank that asshole Nadar for that one

[rinsd]

2. So what? Does anyone really think he'll ever play spoiler again?

[ronnykmarshall]

3. Fucking asshole.

It ALLLLLLLLL about Ralph.

[TheCowsCameHome]

4. I hope he runs

Right across the border and never looks back.

[Double T]

5. Ralph should sit down and STFU!!!!!

[bigdarryl]

It's becoming painfully obvious this MF'er wants to see the democrat party loose again

[sabbat hunter]

21. democratic party

please remember it is the democratic party not democrat :)


that being said the only reason nader runs is to boost his own ego.

[Evergreen Emerald]

107. !

et too bigdarryl?

[Bluestar]

11. What YOU said! n/t

[Colobo]

6. If Rudy is the GOP candidate

Then I expect some candidate from the far right to run as Libertarian or Independent... that should balance things out.

I don't like Hillary very much, but I think Nader sucks. If your goal in life is to be a spoiler, then your life's got to be very miserable.

[rinsd]

9. Ron Paul is supposed to be running (nt)

[Mojambo]

I agree with him about Hillary, but I won't support his run. n/t

[LynneSin]

154. BINGO!!!

I feel the same exact way

[chelsea0011]

7. Excellent. 8 More years of Republicans. He is one egomaniac.

[BootinUp]

10. Ralph is a misguided fool. Someone oughta

tell him to campaign for the repukes straight out.

[AX10]

12. I would vote for Hillary over Nader anyday.

Hillary is not my first choice, but Nader is just a prick.

[pnwmom]

62. Absolutely. Or any Democrat.

[Poll_Blind]

13. Nader's shtick nolonger plays anywere. n/t

PB

[whistle]

14. Ralph Nader is a reTHUGlican shill

[rinsd]

27. Shill? No. Dupe? You betcha!

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0720-15.htm

[wyldwolf]

15. Get that .0001%!

[Lost-in-FL]

16. Here's the ticket!!

Nader/Lieberman '08

"Cause two spoilers are better than one"

[skipos]

17. Nader 2000 was so awesome for America. Lets do it again!!!

:woohoo:

[Vickers]

18. He's a master political strategist.

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mtnsnake]

85. LOL!

:toast:

[Geek_Girl]

20. If Hillary wins I may just vote for him

nt

[William769]

23. Thats the spirit!

:eyes:

[DaveinMD]

25. good job

The Republican Party will thank you.

[LoZoccolo]

37. Whether or not Hillary wins, I won't be hearing from you until then.

[SaveElmer]

26. Lyndon Larouche has a better chance of making a difference...

Nader has abandoned everything he supposedly stood for in order for some cheap publicity...and after 2000 his relevance to anything came to an end...

[Faygo Kid]

28. The Harold Stassen of Our Era

Got to say this, Ralph Nader has had a greater impact on the world than untold other famous people in history. Much of his impact was excellent, too. But. . .

[Virginia Dare]

30. Screw you, Nader...n/t

[Lost-in-FL]

32. She's not going to win...

So sorry for the Nader fans out there. I do not know what's worse, a Right wing troll or a Nader supporter...

[William769]

43. Or defeatist Democrats?

[Lost-in-FL]

48. I am talking about the nomination...

She won't get it, there's lots of choices and there are still some out there that might jump in too (Gore, Clark, etc.).

[William769]

49. Wasn't pointing fingers, just adding to your list.

:hi:

[Lost-in-FL]

50. ...

:blush: :hi:

[Colobo]

52. I hope you are right

Obama, Gore, Clark, Edwards, Richardson... all of them are much better than Hillary.

[MasonJar]

51. As I said emphatically on another post, this is DU the last I looked,

which stands for Democratic Underground. Whomever the Dems choose we support. I will never forgive Nader for one single vote that he stole from Al Gore, who offered Nader all his Texas votes in exchange for Nader's Florida votes. Nader said no, and also said that there was no difference between Gore and Bush. Half of the world's problems fall on his miserable and arrogant shoulders. He is a laughing stock.

[Lost-in-FL]

54. Nominated for best response!!

:thumbsup:

[David Zephyr]

75. Al Gore never blamed Ralph Nader. The Bush family and the SCOTUS stole the election.

What Nader is saying is that the Democratic Party has a lot of great progressive talent and can do better than another Clinton.

[earthlover]

105. oh please...

If Nader had not run, Florida would have been won by Gore easily and nobody would even have heard about "hanging chads", no recounts, no Supreme Court, a clear victory. Thanks for giving us Bush, Ralph!

[ProudDad]

76. I see, who elected you commissar for purity on this board?

Democratic - Definition:

* characterized by or advocating or based upon the principles of democracy or social equality; "democratic government"; "a democratic country"; "a democratic scorn for bloated dukes and lords"- George du Maurier

* representing or appealing to or adapted for the benefit of the people at large; "democratic art forms"; "a democratic or popular movement"; "popular thought"; "popular science"; "popular fiction"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* The term democracy indicates a form of government where all the state's decisions are exercised directly or indirectly by a majority of its citizenry through a fair elective process. When these factors are met a government can be classified as such. This can apply to a multitude of government systems as these concepts transcend and often occur concomitantly with other types.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic

---------------------------------------------

Back when I joined DU the pervading sentiment was the 1st and 3rd above without mindless obeisance to any particular political party/cult.

Someday we may have a "fair elective process" in the U.S., IRV and Public Financing of Elections should do it.

Then both the Dems and the pukes will become obsolete or at least marginalized.

[David Zephyr]

79. Democratic Underground, Not the Democratic Party's Basement.

Big difference.

And for the record, I would vote for Hillary if she becomes the nominee, but I'll get drunk on the way to the polls.

[Clark2008]

150. Or we leave this board.

Which is fair enough.

If Edwards is the nominee, I can't, in good conscious, support him and would leave this board as not to violate its rules.

But, you wouldn't find me on Conservative Underground, either. I'd write in a vote or vote third party because I wouldn't support the Republican nominee either. Not that Edwards (or Obama or HRC, for that matter) would carry my state, so my vote is of no great loss.

Sometimes "sucking it in" and voting for the Dem nominee isn't enough.

[question everything]

59. Let's see. The economy under Clinton had a real "trickle

down" effect.

More than a trickle down. The expansion economy raised the standard of living for everyone. He turned the worst - until 1992 - budget deficit to a surplus.

He vetoed ban on late term abortion and nominated two capable supreme court justices.

He send troops to Bosnia to save innocent people and, yes, Hillary Clinton tried a real dent at health care reform.

What have you, Nader, done for us lately, except to look at the mirror and to say "Me, Me, Me?"

[ShortnFiery]

60. Good for Ralph Nader! I did not vote for him, but he's partly right.

HRC is bought and paid for by the Corporate Elite as are all the DLC democrats. In that ONE regard (not the occupation of Iraq), the Democrats and Republicans are similar. :shrug:

[havocmom]

65. And where did the GOP $$ Nader took come from?

Girl Scout Cookie Sales?

Nader took corporate cash and he took it from the RNC.

[ShortnFiery]

68. I stated for that ONE issue (she's bought off by corporations)

No, I have no beef with you because HRC has not been nominated. If she is, I won't vote Nader but for the Green Party Candidate. If HRC is nominated, I'll thoughtfully take a break from posting my comments on DU, because I will be SUPPORTING the Greens.

Hate me if you wish but it was only my Husband who talked me into voting for Clinton the second time (1996). I was honestly disgusted with his womanizing and I believe that he's far from cured, i.e., they have an open marriage. Further, the economy was on an upswing and Clintons are for NAFTA and continued Welfare Reform. :thumbsdown:

Nope, no way in hell will I vote for HRC. If I have to give up DU, then regretfully, so be it. :(

[David Zephyr]

72. The solution is simple: Democrats need to nominate someone other than Hillary.

Senator Obama, General Wes Clark, Senator Edwards, Al Gore...

There's more in our deck than other Clinton.

Stand you ground. Our Party is rich with talent.

[Colobo]

74. Exactly

We have way too many good candidates out there...

[Virginia Dare]

84. I might stand my ground...

but it won't be because of any threats that Ralph Nader has made.

[Clark2008]

151. I'd vote for HRC over Edwards.

I could never bring myself to vote for him. At least HRC doesn't talk out of both sides of her mouth and change her positions when it's policially expedient to do so.

[ProudDad]

78. I'll repeat for your benefit

John Kerry got 10 times as much 'GOP money' as Nader did.

He didn't give it back either...

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

87. but you have no problem with bill and hill taking tips from dick morris?

no wonder we got nafta, gatt, welfare deform and 96 telcomm act

[havocmom]

100. Where did I say ANYTHING about that?

Look! Over there! Don't look at Nader... look! Over there!

:rofl:

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

108. my point is you accuse nader of being a clost gop guy....

but you give hillary a pass for morris, whose advice pushed through the reagan agenda well into the 90s.

[havocmom]

125. Morris was not a topic in OP or my previous posts

Until replying to your red herring, I have NEVER put morris in a post at all so how do you figure I give her a pass re Morris WHEN I HAVE NEVER WEIGHED IN ON THAT ISSUE?

Want to talk, fine. Want to put words in my mouth, bugger off.

[papau]

71. But that also applies to Ralph being funded by the GOP - until Fed's fund elections the

corporations will, and influence will follow the money.

The question is how much influence - the GOP sold the regulatory agencies, pentagon contracting, and Justice/Courts and Treasury/Tax to the corporations.

The Dems seem to stop at a tax loop hole and a research grant or two.

[Virginia Dare]

83. Whomever the Democratic Nominee is will have been...

bought off by the Corporate Elite to some degree. Nobody stands a ghost of a chance at the nomination without at least some significant corporate support. Even if Hillary Clinton drops out, everyone else left in the game will be begging for her endorsement and most of all MONEY.

The answer to this problem is real ELECTION REFORM, but Ralph Nader will never make it happen by running around playing spoiler and crybaby.

At one time he had a real chance to make a difference but he let his ego get in the way. Ralph Nader is over, done, he needs to just go away.

[citizen snips]

69. He will have no chance of winning.

he is nothing but a self-promoter.

[ProudDad]

80. And That's Not All

Here's Ralphs EVIL platform:

* universal health care
* a $10/hour living wage
* the abolition of the death penalty
* equal rights for gays and lesbians
* for a woman's right to choose
* an end to corporate hegemony in politics
* the repeal of Taft Hartley (anti-union law)
* getting rid of the WTO, the World Bank and the Imperialist Monetary Front (IMF)
* making it easier to organize unions



He's in it to try to get the Dems to do what's right for the people.

[Virginia Dare]

86. He's going about it the WRONG WAY....n/t

[Laurab]

94. And of course, give votes to the repugs. n/t

[SaveElmer]

95. Bull...

He is an absolutist who loves publicity...

He is a Republican tool and a liar...

The day he said there wasn't a "dimes worth of difference" between Al Gore and George Bush he branded himself as such!!!

[Joe Bacon]

124. Not true, Nader HATES unions

Ralph Nader HATES unions and actively breaks them when HIS workers try to organize!

Nader busted a union among his own workers!

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#antiunion

Nader abuses his own workers

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm#overwork

"Big business never pays a nickel in taxes, according to Ralph Nader, who represents a big consumer organization that never pays a nickel in taxes." -- Dave Barry

"We spent a hundred years trying to clean sweatshops out of our system and what happens? Along comes the first major reformer of any impact, and he starts doing the same goddamned thing. ... My wife had to tell Ralph once to stop phoning after midnight." -- Jim Turner, former Nader lieutenant

Jay Leno: "What do you do for fun?" Nader: "Strawberries" -- The Tonight Show

[PresidentObama]

90. What an asswipe.

If Hillarys wins the nomination, she'll be the next President. The Democrats have plenty of great candidates, and any one of them can and will defeat the GOP. If Nader runs or not!!

[against all enemies]

91. He makes me sick. What an egotistical asshole.

[Trajan]

92. As much as I used to admire Nader ....

A Nader candidacy would split the Democratic party vote, and possibly hand the election to someone the likes of Brownback ......

Now THAT is fucking scary ...

Hillary's 'mistake' in the IWR is a problem, yes .... but do we decide to take it out on ourselves ? ...

Do we punish ourselves for the IWR ? ..... hardly ....

Nader, as much as I admire him personally, will NOT win an election, and would only serve the interests of the GOP ....

For that reason: Nader MUST stay out of the race .....

[MadHound]

96. Oh boy, all the Democrats can get frothy at the mouth now,

And blame all of their problems and a potential loss on Nader's 1% showing in the election. Ooooo, big, bad scary Nader, the convienent fall guy for all of the Democratic failings and fumbles.

Hell, Nader is providing the best cover going, as long as he's around the Democratic party doesn't have to engage in any serious retrospection or reflection. Blame it all on the all powerful Nader who pulled in .35% last time around and 2.74% the time before. Nader apparently has the strangest super powers around, being able to cause Great & Mighty Shakeups in Power, all with itty-bitty vote totals.

The party has at least got to have the honesty to admit to itself that it has major flaws and correct them. Otherwise Nader will be the least of its problems.

[SaveElmer]

97. Not all of them...

Only Florida 2000...

He's still an asshat though!

[MadHound]

103. He wasn't part of the problems with Florida, not even close

Even the DLC head at the time, Al From, knows that:
"The assertion that Nader's marginal vote hurt Gore is not borne out by polling data. When exit pollers asked voters how they would have voted in a two-way race, Bush actually won by a point. That was better than he did with Nader in the race." <http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=127&subid=179&contentid=2919>

Then there is the matter of that Supreme Court decision.

And after that decision was made, and all the outrage and interest had faded, a consortium of newspapers went in and did their own recount, and found out that Gore actually won. Strikingly enough, this report that was released in mid-November after the NORC consortium initially said they were going to release it in early Sept. But then we had 911 and NORC sat on the report for another two months, thus allowing Bush to wave the bloody shirt and get us rolling down the warpath straight at the wrong target. Anyway. <http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1115-01.htm>

These are just a few of the reasons that Nader didn't cost Gore a damn thing, in Florida or elsewhere.

[SaveElmer]

104. ...

http://2act.org/p/33.html

The % of Nader voters that would have voted for Bush/Gore in a a two-way race:
Gore Bush
47% 21% VNS, largest sample
47% 24% CBS, sample = 85
30% 15% NES, sample = 33.
38% 25% Democratic exit poll
Dem Rep
45% 21% Nader voters / House candidates (NES)
52% 12% Nader voters / Senate candidates (NES)

Nader cites the Democratic poll most often because it indicates the least damage. But it is also one of the least if not the least reliable. Even if the poll is the best indication of Florida voters, without Nader, Gore would have gotten 13% of 97,000 more votes thatn Bush from Nader voters, and would have won by 12,000 votes instead of losing by 537.

Not that Nader cared as he made clear in this interview


Nader Admitted Not Minding Spoiler Role
Sep. 14, 2000
Rolling Stone, #849, Sept.14, 2000
Rolling Stone: "In 1996, you told the New York Times, 'If I really wanted to beat Clinton, I would get out, raise $3 or $4 million, and maybe provide the margin for his defeat. That's not the purpose of this candidacy.' Since you're planning to raise $5 million and run hard this year, does that mean you would not have a problem providing the margin of defeat for Gore?"
Nader: "I would not—not at all."

[MadHound]

115. Still seems like a mighty far stretch, here's why.

First, from a site that your site links to "CNN’s polling data said that if neither Nader nor Buchanan had run, Bush would have beat Gore 48 to 47 percent, with 4 percent who voted not voting"<http://www.votenader.org/why_ralph/index.php?cid=3> But you're probably not excepting anything from the Nader camp, so I'll proceed. Oh, by the by, how do you explain From's statement? The DLC does have, after all, some of the best exit polling going on out there:shrug:

But another point for you to consider. In his book "The Best Democracy Democracy Money Can Buy", Greg Palast writes about two very salient subjects. The first is how Gore scewed himself out of 600,000 votes in Florida. You see, Gore's corporate master, BP Oil was very much wanting to get into off shore drilling, close to the coastal waters of Florida. Thus, Gore was for this also, and his stance pissed off aprox. 200,000 registered Democrats and aprox 400,000 self described liberals to the point that they voted for Bush, instead of Gore. Now those figures could be off by a couple of orders of magnitude, and it would still mean that the vote shift that Gore fosterd with his uncompromising pro drilling stance pissed off enough people that it cost his the election. This is what happens when you put corporate interest ahead of human interests.

Secondly, Palast goes on to mention how, early on in the recount process, he handed Gore the entire Votescam scandal on a silver platter. The proof of votescrubbing, the disenfranchisement of voters, the whole enchilada, all wrapped up nice and neat. Now then, imagine that you've been handed the means to not only win the election, but also to banish your opponent to the political wilderness forever. What would you do? Would you use that information? I know I would, and certainly most other folks would. But sadly, Gore sat on that information, and thus lost the election and doomed this country to eight years of war and bloodshed under Bush. You can find all of that and more in this book<http://www.amazon.com/Best-Democracy-Money-Can-Globalization/dp/0452283914> I suggest that you read it sometime.

The fact is Nader didn't cost Gore a goddamn thing. This tired old canard about Nader costing Gore the election in Florida is simply a feel good excuse that let's the Democratic party explain away a disastorous campaign by Gore, allowing them to scapegoat somebody else and ignore the glaring problems within the party for another four years or more.

There are a number of reasons why Gore lost Florida, and Nader isn't one of them. Perhaps if the party had done the requisite soul searching required when one takes responsibility for one's loss, they would have corrected said mistakes and won in '04. Instead, they ignored the problems, hoped they would go away, and got burned again in '04, an election where some again, laughingly blamed Nader and/or the Greens(though interestingly enough it was the Greens who first brought the matter of faulty Ohio election machines to the public's attention, not Kerry who had the most to gain).

Again, rather than continue to blame Nader, place the blame squarely where it belongs, with the Gore campaign and the Democratic party. Accept it, learn from it and move on. Otherwise all you're doing is wrongfully blaming the wrong person, and preventing the party from winning again.

[SaveElmer]

121. The least favorable exit polling...

Had Gore beating Bush by 13% among Nader voters...with 36% in neither camp...

Simple math and logic tells you that had that split been maintained Gore would have beat Bush easily...arguing that the majority of Nader voters would have voted for Bush is nonsensical.

The CNN poll is nationwide and not specific to Florida...

And Naders use of the Democratic poll where he states 60% would not have voted for Gore is dishonest...he is assuming the voters who said neither would have gone for Bush...which is ridiculous. His defense rings of self justification for aiding in the imposition of George Bush on the country...

I did not say Nader was the only factor. Just because he can now blame the Supreme Court for keeping him as the sole goat...the fact remains Ralph Nader purposely and willfully set out to cost Al Gore the 2000 election...

And for that he deserves scorn and ridicule!!!

[MadHound]

127. Way to ignore all of the other evidence and problems that I have pointed out earlier

Facts that do indeed show that it wasn't Nader who cost Gore the election in Florida, but Gore himself. Or did you miss that little point about the 600,000 votes Gore pissed away in Florida in order to please his corporate masters at BP.

Oh, and while you are citing a poll that Nader cites(by the by, do you have the original poll?), I am using information direct from Al From and the DLC, folks who have every reason to scapegoat Nader, yet they fail to do so.

Oh, and what about that Votescam thing that Palast handed to Gore on a silver platter? Got any explanation for why Gore failed to call Bush on this issue of disenfranchisement, or is it all still Nader's fault:eyes:

For your information, and as I've shown on this thread with a plethora of evidence, Nader was not a factor in Gore's loss, period. And Nader didn't "willfully set out to cost Al Gore the 2000 election" he set out to make the point that we're living under a two party, same corporate master system of government. That is the hard truth of the matter, and the sooner the Democrats wake up and realize this, and correct it, the better off we'll be. Besides, it is Nader, or anybody else's Constitutional right to run for any office in the land. Do you favor that right, or only favor it win it helps out Democratic candidates, ala Clinton and Perot '92?

Thanks for once more proving my point that Democrats would rather scapegoat Nader and blame the problems of the world on him, rather than doing the hard work of identifying the substantial problems that existed and still continue to exist in the party in order to correct them and bring about a stronger party. It was many of these same problems that continued to haunt Kerry in '04, unltimately costing him the election.



Good job there, your head is firmly implanted in the sand like all of the rest of the good Dems:thumbsup::eyes:

[jonnyblitz]

99. outstanding post! I am not a huge fan of Naders and would

never vote for him but I always believed he was a convenient scapegoat for the reasons you cite.

[Greyhound]

118. OMG, have you lost your mind?!? It was Nader and his evil minions (you can tell they're evil because

of the horns and their pointy tails) that caused all of our problems. YOU ARE A BLASPHEMER! BE GONE YOU EVIL POINTER OF FACTS!

It is a well known certainty (here) that if only Mrs. Nader had an abortion in 1936, there would have been no vote counting fraud, Katherine Harris would not have existed, and therefore, Choice point would never have been directed to deny 100,000 Florida citizens their rightful vote, and Donna Brazile would have managed a campaign so irresistibly compelling that Jeb himself would have been personally directed by GOD ALMIGHTY to vote for Al Gore!

And with the scraping of that single uterus, we would now be living in the paradise that was truly meant to be, but noooooooo Ralph Nader, may he be eternally eaten alive by fire ants every day and resurrected every night, had to go and stir up OUR RIGHTFUL SUPPORTERS, turning their simple minds with such nonsense as "corporations have too much power and undue influence in our government, and "working people" have a "right" to earn a living by simply spending 1/3 or more of their lives in pursuit of someone else's ambition, and worst of all that they HAVE A RIGHT to vote their conscience!

NOW BEGONE! REPENT OF YOUR SINS AND MAKE 1000 ACTS OF CONTRITION THROUGH SELF-INFLICTED PAIN, AND TROUBLE US NO MORE!!

[Forkboy]

134. I think you hit the nail on the head

What gets me is the disdain for democracy so many of the Nader haters seem to have.They only like people voting when it's for the same person they like.It's exactly the same thinking we see so much of on the right,and it's always sad to see it displayed so vigorously on the left as well.

And not only that,but the level of hatred borders at times on being Ann Coulter-like in it's vapidity and bile.You'll see people who claim to be against war or violence wish him dead in all sorts of ways the first chance they get.It's quite a disconnect to behold sometimes.Many of the people here on these threads (not all!) remind me a lot of the Republicans,and I bet if even a few of them could step back from their hatred they might be shocked at what they see in themselves.

Or maybe not.Hate is easy.

[GreenTea]

98. It'll be nice to have any liberal in the race...However, Nader is in danger of becoming the new

Lyndon LaRouche.

[hulklogan]

106. Hopefully he won't be a factor in the election

The stakes are too high, aren't they?

[ripple]

109. Nader was in the 2004 race, as well

He wasn't a factor.

This is a classic case of yelling FIRE! in a crowded theatre, with Fox News fanning the flames.

[TheFarseer]

110. Good

I'll have someone to vote for.



Allthough I hope there will be a better third party candidate than Ralph Nader running for the third time.

[PhilipShore]

114. Nader is a MSM Repuke puppet

He was in the past a great liberal consumer rights advocate, now he is a -- failed -- Repuke puppet.

As a liberal -- I am outraged, that the Repukes have funded his campaign from day one, because of his anti-semitic philosophy. Nader's support for Palestinian terrorists rights, is not at all a liberal philosophy.

Nader-Israel

http://www.jewishsightseeing.com/usa/campaign_2000/nader_israel.htm

He would not even be in the spotlight today -- had not been for the Repukes fueling the fire. They knew he was anti-semitic -- so they made him into a great MSM liberal god.

As a liberal, I never seen him as a great liberal god, he wrote a few books -- of interest about consumer rights, but thats all, in fact that has more to being a arm chair liberal, rather then a genuine liberal, such as a Einstein, Gandhi, Jesus Christ, JFK, or King etc.

[Jennicut]

116. No difference between Gore and Bush, Ralphie?

What a tool! Just that statement alone makes me think of Ralph Nader as fingernails on a chalkboard. We can all see how alike Chimpy and Al are now. I never contemplated voting for Nader and never will. The fact the Repugs contributed to him makes me angry. I do not like Hillary as the Dem candidate but will never vote for Nader EVER! To those who make him out to be a hero, its lovely that he allowed himself to be used and funded by Repugs. He may not have cost Gore the presidency but he sure didn't seem to mind if he did. Ironically, Nader now considers himself an Al Gore fan and was at a booksigning of Gore's over the summer of 06. If we had an actual legitimate 3rd party candidate than I would consider voting for them but so far I see no one capable of pulling in enough votes to make a difference or who won't just end up splitting the vote and giving the election to the Repugs. The last real 3rd party candidate was Teddy Roosevelt and he still ended up handing the presidency to a Woodrow Wilson the Dem. So I guess Iwill have to fight for Obama or someone else for our candidate or end up holding my nose and vote for Hillary.

[Rowdyboy]

117. Nader makes me nauseaus....I'll vote for Clinton or ANY Democrat in 2008

Ralph Nader should be consigned to the 7th layer of Hell where he belongs. Yeah, I know all about his "good work" for consumers in the 1970's. I lived through it. Screw all that. He's become a major Republican tool, as guilty as Joe Lieberman of helping this (mal)administration.

[Mark E. Smith]

119. GOP must have mailed him another big check

Things aren't going so well and they need their boy Ralphie back out
there on the streets fucking things up.

[ncteechur]

126. If you plan to vote for Nader this time, get the hell off this forum and go

some-the hell-where else.

Nader is shit.

[MadHound]

128. Who the fuck appointed you admin, mod or great political god around here?

STFU pal, mandatory loyalty oaths and political censorship is obscene no matter which direction it comes from, right or left.:grr:

[incapsulated]

130. If you are supporting Nader you will not be allowed to post about it

Come election season. Just like last election.

You know why?

Those are the rules because this is the fucking DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND not the SPOILERS FOR REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS UNDERGROUND.

[MadHound]

140. No, if I'm supporting Nader come election season, I won't be allowed to prostylitize about it.

A bit of a difference there.

However, that is no excuse for jackasses and jerkoffs telling people who won't support Hillary in the fall where to go and what to do. This person is not an admin or mod, and has absolutely no right to be taking that sort of attitude with anybody. For, and as a rules lawyer you should know this, DU rules specifically state that this board is for Democrats and other progressives.

Having been here for a number of years and all of the election cycles since the inception of DU, I'm getting damn sick and tired of all the bullying around here, loyalty oaths, etc. Especially when we're damn near two years out from the election and a year out from the primaries. Give it a fucking rest already! There's plenty of time left for people to demand loyalty and try to bully everybody into goosestepping into line.

[incapsulated]

142. Sorry, when it comes to Nader

I have ZERO sympathy.

[Forkboy]

131. Quick,,,to the PanicMobile!!

:eyes:

[Township75]

135. I am more concerned about Hillary getting the nod than Nader running.

Nader is irrelevent, he won't get a handful of votes this time around after 2k.

He will be just like Perot...they had their 15 minutes in one election, and now they are despised. No one should get worked-up over him.

[DainBramaged]

136. You shouldn't be SHE is a Democrat

So will you abandon the party is she is nominated, or is hating Hillary just sport? Which is worse, Hillary (and Bill) or another Rethug?

[Township75]

138. Huh?

I'm curious why you are asking those questions.

"You shouldn't be SHE is a Democrat"
So, all Dems are great, huh? Maybe some of us haven't cared for NAFTA or the IWR...maybe there are better Dems than her for the nomination.

"o will you abandon the party is she is nominated, or is hating Hillary just sport?"
What's the premise of your question? Is it that not being 100% supportive of Hillary means I hate her or that I am going to leave the party.

"Which is worse, Hillary (and Bill) or another Rethug?"

Depends on the Rethug...sometimes there isn't much of a difference (sometimes there is).

[DainBramaged]

141. "Depends on the Rethug?"

So you're saying a Rethug is a better choice than Hillary?


I will only work for the nominee, I will not be disappointed when and if my candidate does not make the final vote. And it's all fun to play who will be chosen 19 months before the election, but guess what, NO RETHUG is better than ANY Democrat, NONE.

[Township75]

146. Once again, you don't answer questions, just respond with accusations

I didn't see one answer to any of my questions, and it doesn't surprise me. I am beginning to see a pattern....if you don't support Hillary 100%, you are supporting Nader. If you don't support Hillary 100%, you think a Ruthug is better than her. IF someone asks you to back up those claims, just shout an accusation louder.

So where did I threaten to vote 3 rd party? Nevermind, I can anticipate your response.

[DainBramaged]

158. Here's my response, I never said ANYWHERE I support her

Your questions are moot. And so is this thread. There will be THOUSANDS more bashing the shit out of her before our convention.

And she could possibly NOT get the nomination. Then you can all cheer for your success in bashing a woman and keeping the Office of the President male for another generation or so.

Goodbye.

Bring me a shrubbery.

[Township75]

160. Keep the baseless accusations coming...

"I never said ANYWHERE I support her"
did someone accuse you of that? I know I didn't

"Then you can all cheer for your success in bashing a woman and keeping the Office of the President male for another generation or so."
I'll be cheering for that? That's my intention? I guess there is only one reason to criticize Hillary and that is to keep the office male dominated. Or maybe that is the only response you could come up with.

My questions may be moot, but they are more relevant than any accusation you ever levelled against me and never backed-up. Keep the pattern going, it's getting entertaining!

[DainBramaged]

163. Self-delete

I'd rather break rocks than play your game. Don't vote for Hillary I dont give a shit.

[DainBramaged]

162. Self-delete

Not worth my time. Don't reply I won't see it.

[DainBramaged]

161. Self delete, not worth my time

[election_2004]

137. Neither Ralph nor Hillary will get my vote!

Neither will McCain, Romney, Huckabee, Brownback, Hunter, or Tancredo.

[Colobo]

139. Maybe...

Obama or Edwards... ? :)

[election_2004]

143. If either of them is the Dem nominee....

I would more than happily vote for either Obama or Edwards over any Republican in the field.

But there are other choices, and right now Richardson and Clark (if he runs) would be at the top of my list. They're not the only ones whom I'd consider voting for, but I'm not going to rubber-stamp someone in the General Election just because they have a "D" after their name.

[DainBramaged]

166. Even if we lost by a few hundred votes AGAIN, you'd NOT vote for

the "D" you disliked? How bizzare.

[DainBramaged]

144. So if by chance she wins, we're short a vote?

[election_2004]

157. That's correct....

Although my vote won't really matter one way or the other, because I live in California where she'd win our 55 electoral votes by a landslide.

[DainBramaged]

167. I did a Deja Vu moment and realized how foolish it is to assume

when they stole Florida by a couple of votes. Jesus, now I understand how the Rethugs win all the time.

[sellitman]

145. How come Nader is so upset with Hillary?

You might think that after 8 years of dumbya he might be upset with a Republican first?

That is very telling if you ask me.

King Ralph is a laughing stock if you ask me. The trouble is I'm not laughing.

[ToeBot]

155. I suppose it's best to hope that Republicans are still in total disarray...

throughout 2008; allowing Dem's to win by default. Again. 'Cause if the current state of affairs is any sort of barometer, it's unlikely they (the Dem's) will be providing real leadership - at least as far as presidential contenders are concerned. By all means, let the media, the pundits and the republican puppet masters nominate Sen. Clinton, as it's always possible the GOP will remain a disaster-in-motion. (And a backhanded victory is better than a loss!)

If the Democrats run a candidate that some don't wast to vote for, then accept that those votes are lost. Get pissed if it makes you feel better - phony moral outrage makes for entertaining reading. Political parties don't own votes, they earn them.

[Madspirit]

156. Blood on his hands

Nader already has so much blood on his hands from this war, he should be ashamed of himself.

He's old.
I can hope for a heart attack for him and I do. He's trying to guarantee another Republican in office and as someone living in poverty who needs health care and stuff, I take his running as a personal assault.

It's so sad how much he loves having a Republican president. I hope he dies.
Lee

[Pushed To The Left]

159. Somebody needs to convince Tom Tancredo or Pat Buchanan to run as an Independent!

The right wing vote would split a lot more than the progressive vote would for our candidate and Nader!

[fuzzyball]

169. Are you willing to send some $$ to Tancredo or Buchanan?

Without money they can't make a run.

[Pushed To The Left]

170. I'll give my money to the Democratic candidate!

However, it would be great to see Tancredo pull a Nader on the Republicans!

[DainBramaged]

164. This thread is a backhanded attempt to bash Hillary yet again

If we lose the election in 08 when and if she gains the nomination, and you anti-Hillary trolls decide to vote for anyone but Hillary, you and your children will again reap wat you sow.

How fucking sad.

[fuzzyball]

168. Nader is the ghost of Ross Perot in reverse...

There is nothing to be gained by wasting energy on Nader.
The best way to neutralize Nader is to make sure our platform
appeals to voters more than GOP by a substantial margin.

That's it! That will make Nader irrelavent.

If we can't appeal to majority of voters then Nader or no
Nader, we will lose. It's that straight forward.