I just saw Kerry on Donnie Deutsch and I have very mixed feelings

[Hippo_Tron]

Every time I see him it makes me so sad to think about how much better off this country would be if he were president. It is almost un-imaginable how different last year would have been with Kerry instead of Bush in office.

That being said, Deutsch started talking to him about what he did wrong on the campaign and frankly he was dead on. He said that Kerry really tried to avoid being himself. But the biggest thing that he didn't do was at the debates when he was addressing the attacks on his service he didn't say, "How dare you Mr. President, I served, you didn't." Kerry said that he wanted the focus to be on the issues not on him but Deutsch reminded him that like it or not, voters vote for the candidates. Kerry made the exact same mistake that Cleland made in 2002. Cleland should have responded to Chambliss with a Chickenhawk ad just like Kerry should have done with Bush.

I'll admit that for a moment when he talked about possibly running in '08, I was inclined to get behind him no matter what because it reminded me so much of why I liked him in '04. But I'm not sure that he has a full appreciation of how important the process is and how to play the game effectively. Then again, I'm not sure that other democrats do either.

[ginnyinWI]

1. I think he has learned lessons like that

From other interviews I've seen lately, it seems that he knows he should have fought back harder on the smears and distortions. I don't think he wants to say too much publicly now, though, both because he's not yet announced another run, and also because he doesn't want to give a lot of second-guessers opportunities to do another round of post-mortems. He just says, "I know what mistakes I've made and I take responsibility." Reading between the lines, I think he means the consultants and managers, but there is probably more, too.

I agree with your premise. It is about the candidate and their character much more than it is about issues. Once you trust your candidate, you trust them to make the right choices on the issues. This is what the GOP focuses on--character, character, character (even when they don't have any). And with Dems it's issues, issues, issues--as if giving the right answers gives you a passing grade on the test, and you're in.

This was very apparent to me watching the Veep debate. Everything Cheney said, just about, referenced how strong and capable they were, and how incompetent the Dems were. And Edwards just kept pounding away on facts and issues. It was like watching two different conversations.

[enough already]

23. It wasn't just the swift liar smears he didn't fight back against.

He didn't fight back when it was clear that Bushco and Diebold stole the election either. I'm not willing to take a chance again on someone that hasn't clearly demonstrated he'll fight these nazis head on.

[blm]

29. Who HAS taken on the issue of machine fraud?

As it stands right now, the only evidence anyone even BELIEVES it exists comes from Kerry. He just learned about it too late. The machines need to be secured BEFORE the voting. After is too late.

[blm]

2. I heard something he said that showed he clicked on what happened....

Remember after he said he accepts responsibilty - ok, any leader should say that - but after he said that he learned that some things are happening within the campaign that prevent you from seeing other things that are going on.

This is what I think - and it centers around the swifts - Kerry thought they WERE doing the proper amount of countering the swifts by getting the truth and the facts out there, so when the Tribune editor's story came out about being ON the boat with Kerry in nam, they were thinking they scored. Same with the Firefighters Convention speech where he mounted his most direct attack on the swifts and the Bush WH connections to them.

What he WASN'T seeing was that the BROADCAST MEDIA wasn't picking up on any of the counters. On the road at all the rallies and keeping up with news on every issue, he wasn't made aware that the BROADCAST MEDIA was ignoring his defense and his counterattacks.

Look in the Research Forum, the thread that gives the details of moves against the swifts. The only ingredient missing is that BROADCAST MEDIA ignored the counters, refused to state what they KNEW were the facts, while giving the swifts all the time they needed.

Whoever was in charge of monitoring the BROADCAST coverage for the campaign failed to gauge it properly. Had Kerry been more aware of the efforts of the media to downplay his counters, he could have developed a plan B - like pulling a Perot for a half hour of primetime.

[ginnyinWI]

3. I did some monitoring in WI.

I was a volunteer doing media monitoring during the last month before the election. I had to watch the same half-hour of local TV news every weekday, take notes of all the content and then email it every night to a state chair who would be able to evaluate what was going on. I also taped the programs and held the tapes for several days in case anybody wanted to go back check anything out. If something really crucial came up I was to be prepared to drop the tape off with somebody that same night to get a rapid response.

This is what they should have been doing for maybe the last six months of the campaign, not just at the end. I'm not certain whether it was Kerry/Edwards or the Dem Party of Wisconsin coordinating all the volunteers that did the monitoring, but it's this kind of help that future campaigns should get up and running early.

[karynnj]

7. Fantastic analysis

In a way, it's like when we look at the research list - they disproved so very many things. The media should have rejected the entire SBVT package after even a few major lies (no errors, lies)were proven. People who were provably not there claiming to witness stuff.

[ginnyinWI]

8. unfortunately, that stuff made for "good" TV.

The media couldn't resist anything that inflamatory. Couldn't take the high road. Just like they loved the Zell Miller spit-ball stuff.

[sendero]

18. And THAT is why..

.. the response has to be just as over-the-top as the attack, because that is the only way the broadcast media will run with it.

This is media 101 in this day and age, and there is no excuse for anyone trying to run a national campaign not getting that.

[blm]

19. That doesn't explain WHY media ignored the Firefighters Convention speech

where Kerry personally attacked back at the swiftliars and their allies in the WH.

If it is true they were going for a dramatic showdown, then why didn't they even REPORT the Firefighters Convention speech, let alone cover it the way they would Bush during the campaign?

It was August 19th and right in the heat of the Swifts claims against him. Why was media ABSENT for that particular event?

[sendero]

20. I'm not going to argue.

... that the media is not biased, if you will refrain from making the argument that there is NO WAY for a candidate to get something he wants on the air.

[blm]

21. It may surprise you, but I don't consider our exchanges arguments. ;)))

In fact, if you were not on this board, I would miss you.

I do state in one of my posts that Kerry said last night that some things in the campaign keep you from knowing other things happening out there.

I think if he KNEW his counters weren't getting the broadcast media he would have done something more dramatic ala Perot. In that regard, whoever was monitoring the follow up by BROADCAST media failed to give an accurate read up the ladder.

[sendero]

22. Well..

... I've certainly made my position clear, I'd rather see someone other than Kerry in 2008. That said, I'm sure he's had time to do a post-mortem on his 2004 campaign, and I'm sure he'd do better if he did it again.

In fact, if I could live any portion of my life over, I'm certain I could do better the second time around :)

[blm]

11. The media rejected Fortunate Son for just ONE thing that was unverified.

Didn't matter that everything else in it was footnoted and verifiable - the media said the whole thing was discredited.

[karynnj]

13. Same with the Rather story

There was a lot that was backed up and verifiable - but the entire story disappeared discredited when documents could not be authenticated. (That the secretary who said that they were not original also said that she did type things with similar information was totally ignored.) If the SBVT were handled the same way, they would have gotten no press at all - as there were blatant lies pointed out the first time the information surfaced. The truth of the matter is that our media knowingly allowed John Kerry's character to be defamed to help Bush. (It still bothers me that self satisfied creeps like the Fox News people and Scarborough feel they can sit in judment of Kerry, who is a far better man than they ever had the potential to be.)

[Bridget Burke]

15. "Fortunate Son" is Bush's title....

Kerry was a Senator's son, but he did go in harm's way.

Bush's daddy got him a cushy slot in TANG but Bush couldn't bother to finish his obligation.

[Mass]

16. Kerry is not a senator's son. His father was a diplomat.

For the rest, you're right.

(Gore's father was a senator).

[TayTay]

17. Kerry's father was a 2nd generation immigrant

His mother was one of 11 children. He went to those 'privileged schools' because an aunt paid for them.

He was less well off growing up than the media let on. He worked his way through school. (He had a union membership in the Teamsters, btw. Had to pay the bills.)

[karynnj]

31. Fortunate son was also the name of a very

negative W biography that came out in 2000 that the PUBLISHER buried when one claim (of many) was questioned.

[NYCGirl]

32. That book is available at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1887128840/sr=8-2/qid=1146679244/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-4763989-5681634?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[karynnj]

48. Thanks

It was for sale in 2000, but then seemed to disappear, so I believed what I had read on line. Thanks for the correction, I won't repeat the misinformation again.

[nickinSTL]

24. I agree...I think he might have been too insulated

from the MSM coverage.

He needed to buy ad time specifically to counter the swiftboat attacks.

[Dr Fate]

26. His mistake was not PERSONALY countering it by calling Bush a "liar"

And using that word.

That would have shifted some of the focus away to a discussion of whehter Bush was using dishonest tactics to smear vets.

He should have said "Bush is lying"- and then force the media to split the hairs as to whether Bush was directly behind the SBVs or not.

Kerry: "Please, Wolf, do you think we are stupid?- OF COURSE Bush is behind it- WHO else would be? Bush is behind this and he needs to stop LYING about my record- or I'll start telling the truth about his LACK of a record."

Too late now- I dearly hope my man has learned.

[blm]

28. He sounded like it last night -

Funny, how those who haven't had years of being attacked think that somehow they'll find the exact words to escape it.

In Kerry's case, I think he had so many decades of being attacked by GOP administrations that he let too much roll off his back because he was used to it.

Media's changed alot. It's a tough lesson to learn, but Gore and Kerry have learned it in spades.

[Dr Fate]

30. I know that Kerry would be a great a president.

I just hope he has learned how to be a better campaigner so that he can get there.

I honestly think the way to do is is to ignore these "strategists" and just be honest and blunt.

I can tell you that blunt, direct and agressive come backs will shut them up every time- its nothing but the old school-yard bully thing. Someone only needs to TRY IT and you will see that it works.

In any event, I've been a supporter for Kerry '08 since his gutsy filibuster speech. He was the only one who really got out front and made the case.

In summary- I have no doubts about Kerry as a leader and President- I still have tiny doubts as to whether he really did learn his lesson as to campaigning- I look forward to have those doubts removed.

Who knows- perhaps the public in '08 will be ready for a PRESIDENT as opposed to campaigner.

[blm]

33. Y'know, I really believe that there will be a backlash to campaign tactics

The post Katrina country we live in is craving COMPETENCE and I really think many have learned that emotional issues like gays and abortion have been used as tactics for too long now. They seem burned out over those issues.

[Dr Fate]

34. I'm leaning that way too- but I'm not 100% sure...

You would still have to package yourself that way:

"Look- I'm not a used car salesman like my opponent is- I'm not the best campaigner in the world, I know that- but who do you want making decisions- a campaigner who acts like a game show host, or a man who can make a good President? The Amercian people need a PRESIDENT- not a campaigner..."

I tend to think the public would like to hear somthing like that. It would still not absolve the candidate from being blunt and agressive when attacked.

[blm]

36. Heheh.... I like your approach. "I don't do soundbites, I do solutions."

.

[Dr Fate]

37. Which is a great sound bite in itself! n/t

n/t

[mitchtv]

44. Do you want a man who does his duty? or that LIAR

who LIED about the war, Exposed our CIA agent?. I agree with you, he should have called Chimp a liar, his biggest mistake in the debates, Also, he could have said " what are you wearing under your jacket, Mr. President? C'mon take off your jacket let's see what that box is.

[Dr Fate]

45. Blunt & agressive yet truthful are 3 words all DEMS need to learn. n/t

n/t

[JI7]

4. about the Vietnam service thing

there are also many who constantly complain he brought it up at all. remember all the jokes about "i served in Vietnam" . no matter what some will complain.

as for whether he runs again and whether to support him. it will be more clear when we see everyone who runs and are able to compare them at debates and other events. it's kind of early to feel any pressure to support anyone if you are not sure.

[serryjw]

5. You don't usually get a 2nd chance to make a 1st impression

We know Kerry as most of the national leaders, most don't. I can't tell you how many people are still unsure of Kerry's military record. I personally think he is a good man but would not support him in 2008. I would love to see him as SecDEF or NSA but not prez.

[karynnj]

12. That type of comment may be even more reason

that Kerry would want to set the record straight. He has lived a very clean life and deserved the good name and reputation he had prior to Rove's character assination. Kerry, if he runs again, to win the primary will need to take back that issue. He absolutely IS a war hero. His service record was (and is) stellar. The FR wish otherwise, but it is Bush with blotches on his record.

If, by magic, everyone knew that Kerry was a war hero when young, would you support him then. (This is rhetorical - so I'm not asking if this could be done.)

[serryjw]

35. ....and McCain has a black child!

They could have attached him on his liberal voting record, that's politics. The ONE issue WE/HE should have been safe on is his military record. Forget the war hero stuff. He served in combat at the most dangerous place on earth..Mekong Delta, while pissypants was living the high life working for his father's friend senate campaign. The MOMENT he didn't fight back,people believed that there was some truth to the swiftboaters accusations. You can't make this better 4 years later, no one believe anything he says. Sometimes in life you F*CK up so badly you can't fix it, this is one one those times. He is in the senate & can be a cabinet member under a democratic president.

[karynnj]

49. I'm not sure

At worst, he is "slow to anger", "too patient", "Concerned with issues that needed fixing rather than throwing dirt back and forth". He could say that he was wrong to think that having the offical record and the other people really there would be enough. He could play to people's sense of fair play.

For example, think about your own life. If your boss came to you saying that he thought you might have distorted your high school (or college) record. He then went on to say that a couple guys came in claiming you got a "D" in calculous, not the "A" in your transcript. You say, 'But my transcript ..." and he says well, can you prove it. There are some achievements that you likely feel are well documented and unquestionable.

That's essentially what happened. Kerry did from the beginning answer that the Navy gave him those medals. (The Navy even verified that standard procedure was followed. In addition, Nixon checked Kerry's records 2 years after he left the Navy - on the tapes, they were upset that he "was sqeaky clean". That Nixon ordered people to destroy Kerry and they did spread false stories when he ran in Lowell, MA for congress - creating such a poisonous atmosphere that he had rocks thrown through his window - one nearly hitting baby Alexandra in her cradle. If there was any wrong in his records, it would have been used to discredit him then.)

[serryjw]

50. You nailed exactly the problem democrats always have

You give the country too much credit for critical thinking skills. This is a country that can name every player in the OJ trial but can't find the Pacific Ocean. Iraq or name one SCOTUS Justice. Americans don't know 10% of what Bushit & Co has done in the last 5 years, You want them to KNOW what Nixon did to Kerry 35 years ago? Silly girl!

If you want to win you need a charming (IMHO, Clarke) that KNOWS how to play dirty and CYA. He didn't go that far in the military w/o CYA skills.

[blm]

14. I will - who else are we certain will open the books that need opening?

There are only a handful of people who can be counted on to do that, and Kerry is at the top of the list.

[Dr Fate]

25. Donny is right- Kerry should have said "Bush is LYING about my record"

And then when some media twit says "But-but- Bush is not saying it- the vets are" He should have responed- "You must think Americans are stupid- you and I both know damn well that Bush & Karl Rove are behind this- cut the BS for a change. He is liar- you know it and I know it."

Will DEMS will ever learn?- we need to be blunt and agressive if we want the respect of swing voters.

I have a feeling "in my gut" (those nerve ending, ya know)- that Kerry has learned his lesson. His filibuster speech indicates this. I hope I'm right.

If he runs again- he needs to issue a statement that if anyone LIES (and use that word) about him, his family or record, he will "Kick their ass." Yes. I'm being serious. Swing voters love that crap.

[peacetheonlyway]

59. Dean would not have a problem saying "Bush Lied about me"

in fact, Kerry was the one who funded the ads against Dean in NH and Iowa....

rest assured, this man plays by the same Skull and Crossbones rules that Bush plays by.....

only he hides his big business cronyism better than Bush....

[LittleClarkie]

62. Okay, I thought you were reasonable. Now I know different

1. that Kerry was ONE of the ones who funded the ads against Deain in NH and Iowa was a rumor that have haven't seen proven yet.

Even if he did, what did you think, Dean was going to get the red carpet rolled out for him by the other candidates?

2. Surely you're not saying that the fact that they belonged to the same frat means anything at all. That's just sad. S & B = B & S

3. You still haven't answered my question from another post. Where did you get the figure "40 million" in regard to what you think Kerry stole for election investiation.

[peacetheonlyway]

72. Kerry funding Dean attack ads..

here is the most authoritative outline of who funded the Dean attack ads..

the links to Kerry are pretty clear...
http://www.counterpunch.org/lewis03062004.html

and the link to the $40M will be found later... I'm tired and it's late...

you'll have to trust me.. Kerry ran away with 40M$ in American donations and booty and didn't spend dime one on the Ohio recount..

would you like jon bonifaz's email.. i'm sure you can write him here on his website.. he's running for SOS in Massachussets and can give you personal information about Kerry's effort in that legal cause...

[email protected]
http://www.johnbonifaz.com/contactus

answer me a larger 2 questions:
1. Why should we settle for a man who lost the first time versus a possibly stronger candidate that can win this next time?
2. How did John Kerry keep his promise to have every vote counted? are you aware the New Mexico recount was shut down as well?
how did he keep that going?

give me names...

Why don't you call his lawyer Don McTique and ask whey Kerry was absentee in all the major recounts??? here is is contact details...
"Our action is not tied to some hope of changing the outcome of the election. We're being consistent with the Kerry campaign, and the Democratic Party's interest in seeing all eligible ballots are counted," McTigue said.

QUOTE FROM Ken Blackwell the GOP Gov. of Ohio:
Let me quote one succinct statement about the outcome: “Overall, Ohio has a good system. Like any system, if you scrutinize it enough, you're going to find weaknesses.” This quote is from Don McTigue, a Democratic election lawyer who worked in the secretary of state’s office in a previous administration, and who was deeply involved in the election and its aftermath.

I happen to agree with Mr. McTigue. Overall, Ohio has a good system, and it performed well under extraordinary stress. And yes, it has some weaknesses. I will speak to some problems and our plans to address them.


Kerry hired someone who did not start from finding the truth and counting votes, he instead hired someone to pretend he gave a shit about the votes of honest Americans in Ohio...

that you can't see this is sad to me.....

[LittleClarkie]

74. Don McTigue was Kerry's lawyer

Kerry did hire someone who cared. You have the wrong name. He had a different lawyer, but fired that one and hired McTigue quite a while ago. I used to be able to say that McTigue was representing Kerry in Ohio, but that case was dismissed and hasn't been reinstated yet.

Good lord, woman.

And, I'm sorry, but Counterpunch is a rag.

[peacetheonlyway]

76. Pekarkis was his early lawyer and stayed involved

and Don McTigue was the one telling the Judge Kerry did not personally wish to fight the recount...

death knell to America..

Kerry will never be able to walk away from that blunder....

I don't worry about your personal attacks...


i'm telling the truth and that's all that matters...

[peacetheonlyway]

77. Pekarkis represented Kerry

as late as January for the PDA conference...

he was doing work for Kerry as last as then...

so don't split hairs with me, I was physically there and met the man and have his card somewhere.....

found Pekarkis to be a total pompous arrogant person that seemed to remind me of Kerry...

entitled white boy...

like all the rest of these hoohas that run the country...

i'm with Michael Moore... Stupid White Men just about sums it all up for me....

[LittleClarkie]

78. I've never even heard of the man you're talking about

But here's what I found.

"John Kerry's new Ohio lawyer, Don McTigue, is trying to stop the recount fraud. Here is the 11-point letter he sent to county election officials on Friday. McTigue is right on the mark, demanding true random sampling of precincts (to prevent exactly the manipulation by Triad in Columbus above)... ballot images stored in the each of the redundant memories of touchscreen machines... programming and calibration of the tabulating system, scanners, and electronic voting machines verified by independent experts... verify the logic and accuracy of the computer tabulating program for each precinct... visually inspect all undervote and overvote ballots... inspect envelopes and related paperwork for all uncounted provisional and absentee ballots... etc."

And I know people who've met Sen. Kerry and have the exact opposite opinion of him.

Btw, I didn't attack you, just your source. Or did you want me to dig up what they said about Dean as well? Was he a hawk in dove's clothing? Was he a fake populist? Was THAT equally as true?

[peacetheonlyway]

81. that recount was never fully completed

shut down by the Ohio Attorney General Jim Petro and Gov. Blackwell.

so I guess we could say Don McTigue failed America or he did what Kerry wanted him to do,

do nothing

and let the recount go quietly away into the night which it did...

not of course without 3 respectable lawyers and freedom fighters.. Bob Fritrakis, John Bonifaz and Cliff Arnebeck getting $100K lawsuits flung at them...

nah.. Kerry abdicated his fight to the little guys, let them fry in the frying pan and then just quit..

kerry is a quitter.... he was a hero once but in 2004 he was a quitter...

he still deserves nothing of our time or attention....

[LittleClarkie]

82. When was he supposed to have done that, exactly?

In August of 2005, John Conyers asked John Kerry to stay in the fight. And Kerry did at that time, iirc.

http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2005/08/congressman-conyers-urges-kerry-and.html

[TheDonkey]

6. Kerry admitted he should have attacked

the lies better. Even calling them "lies" was something that he rarely would try to say in 04. That is good because it was the campaigns biggest fault.

[Dr Fate]

27. But he still wont say "Bush lied about my Military record"

It's not enought to say "the lies"- he should be blunt and say "The lies that Bush and Karl Rove told about me and other Veterans"

I'm not splitting hairs here either- this is what he should have said for maximum effect.

[Old and In the Way]

9. Kerry tried to run a reasonably positive campaign in 2004.

He was going to be faced with a hostile Republican majority in Congress and I think he felt he could win by taking the high road in the election. Unfortunately, too many people still hadn't figured Bush out. Of course, I think Kerry won anyway, based on the great analytical work that TIA did....so he really didn't matter what his strategy was in the end. No doubt he'd have been set-up to take the fall for all of the mismanagement of the Republican Congress. I think it is far better to get a Democratic Congress who can assure fairer elections going forward and set the table for a Democratic President to make structural changes in our domestic and international policies..

[serryjw]

38. What they did to Cleland is unforgivable

That is a negative campaign BUT when you are attached when you lay your life on the line for your country; that's not NEGATIVE politics & the record must be set straight. While Bushit was defending Texas Kerry was getting his ass shot at........HOW can anyone NOT see the difference?

[peacetheonlyway]

41. CLELAND WON BY A LANDSLIDE in GA.....

but the diebold machines installed in 2002 were there to make sure he didn't win.

so stop saying it was a few bad commercials that caused cleland to lose..

The republicans fight dirty on all levels and why would you think some bad commercials is all it takes to swing an election...
it takes disenfranchisement and phone jamming and electronic voting machines centrally controlled via satellite chips and it takes 159 counties in GA choosing NOT TO GIVE A SINGLE CITIZEN a copy of the electronic ballots.. it takes a whole lot of people to agree to have let Cleland lose.. so little modification on the history lesson here....

election fraud in the form of Diebold machines is the proof and the reason why Cleland didn't win....

[serryjw]

42. EXCUSE ME! I never said Cleland LOST OR WON!

so stop saying it was a few bad commercials that caused Cleland to lose..


What I DID say was it was UNFORGIVABLE what they did to Max & it was! Don't READ some thing into a post that is not there.

[Hippo_Tron]

52. Because a few bad commercials destroyed Dukakis

Dukakis walked out of the democratic convention with a 17 point lead over Bush. Then the negative ads started and that 17 point lead turned neck and neck. His poor performance in the debate on the death penalty question sealed his fate, but Lee Atwater's smear campaign that played on the fears of stupid people is really what destroyed him in the long run. These smear campaigns are incredibly effective and when democrats don't fight fire with fire and do it in a timely manner, they lose elections.

There was also definately no Diebold in 1988, either.

[wisteria]

10. Oh, believe me, Senator Kerry learns from his mistakes and doesn't repeat

them.

[peacetheonlyway]

40. he's had 100 opportunities to fight election fraud

and hasn't done a single thing in that regard.

and where was he when Barbara Boxer stood up? He staged a visit to Iraq.. can you say coward...

he may have been a man of the people when he was younger, speaking out against the war, but today, he is a milktoast politician with no guts and he certainly will have no glory....

[karynnj]

46. He staged a visit to Iraq because he's a coward

That is beyond absurd.

He was in Iraq doing his Senate job for the Senate foreign relations committe. If you heard the Rice confirmation hearings, you would have seen that that time was put to excellent use. He called Rice on a long list of lies. He also was able to get out, even through the media we have, that Bush & co turned down 4 countries' offers to train Iraqis quicky in their countries. (Note that the Bush reason for not getting out or not tuning missions over to the Iraqis has been that there aren't enough troops.)

There was nothing Kerry could have done in the Senate that day. What Boxer bought by signing the complaint was that there was a discusion on the irregularities, especially in Ohio. Kerry being there would have been a distraction and would have diverted the discussion away from the problems. The BCC supposedly didn't want him there for that reason. As to coward, what risk would he take sitting in the Senate. It may have been painful, but no more so than sitting at the innagraul address with the media cameras on him - including when the sore winners actually chose to boo him. He's tough and he's been through worse.

He actually has spoken about the irregularities and the suppression - which are proven. One time was a rally last fall with John Lewis in Boston. The first time was at MLK day in 2005 (2 months after the election) in Boston. He will be speaking at Kenyon College's graduation this spring - as they're the kids who waited as long as 10 hours to vote - I assume we both know thw topic and know that they didn't choose Kerry at random, nor is it likely that Kerry didn't feel obligated to accept.

[peacetheonlyway]

60. That's the point

he spoke out against election irregularities and suppression 2 months after the election...instead of right after the election...

conceding quickly was his biggest mistake and John Edwards and John Kerry fought viciously on election night about that.... John Edwards was the one that came out and said "we'll count every vote" and to my knowledge he worked 10 x harder at doing it than Kerry.....

bottom line, it's only gaining political point to come out AFTER THE FACT.. he did not show conviction that he won and that cowardice is what caused america 4 more years of suffering the same way Al Gore should have tried more options to save his candidacy like calling the police on the brooks' brother revolt to allow the Miami recount...

it's pansy democrats that we no longer stand. Howard dean and is an example of someone that IS NOT PANSY....

On the Day Boxer stood up 8 other democrats were going to back her and then last minute backed down.. Kerry could have used his leadership to join boxer as well as recommending other democrats stand with her..

again, he is totally responsible for every action.. his not standing and voting with Boxer is making him complicit in America's lost election system , and that my friend is the single most important crime any democrat can commit on America...

no honest elections.. no honest elected officials, no honest government, no honest anything.... if he does not get the importance of fighting election fraud, he does not deserve one red cent for running for president in 2008...

[peacetheonlyway]

61. WAR IN IRAQ

and crony politicians like Delay, Frist, etc. getting into office
are mere byproducts on fundamental flaw in our democracy...

WE Don'T have representative government but instead election fraud...

any attempt to fix the branches of the problem rather than the root cause will allow the disease to spread....

[peacetheonlyway]

39. Don't Vote for Kerry in fact we need to take him outta the game QUICK

he stole 40$M in hardworking democrats $$$$ with the INTENT of running for office..
but he bumbled his way thru the whole thing with not one ounce of integrity

and point blank bowed out (his lawyers on his behalf) of the fight to do a recount in Ohio.
he's a pussy, and a wimp and does not deserve one more penny

He bowed out so he could save his money for a 2008 bid.. he's a greedy opportuninist bastard
who like Hillary clinton does not deserve one more penny or ounce of the democratic voter's time or money.

I pledge to work my butt off for anyone but these 2 candidates.. because I want a democrat to win, but I prefer
a progressive democrat, a darkhorse like Dean that will raise 3 times what these 2 opportunists will raise because
that progressive will speak to the rest of america, not just the corporate interests...

[blm]

43. Kerry is still in two courtcases in Ohio - you are spreading bad info.

He also has never accepted corporate pac money in any of his senate races, so to claim he represents corporate interests is absurd - you don't get the best environmental record in the senate or work on Kyoto when you're a corporatist.

There is NO WAY to challenge the machines AFTER the vote, as riggged machines are set up for onetime use. The machines need to be SECURED for ALL candidates on the ballot by the DNC and its state representatives on the election boards.

Kerry couldn't spend all of that money because of election rules once he accepted the nomination. He also used some of it for the Ohio election cases he is still in, gave a huge chunk to Gregoire for her recount, and he gave a large chunk to Howard Dean for the DNC and many Dem candidates around the country.

Get your facts straight and stop spreading internet rumors.

[karynnj]

47. I'm already at least 99% sure that if Kerry runs, I support him

[LittleClarkie]

51. Catch us if you can

Where did you get that $40 million number, btw? If you check www.opensecrets.com, you will see that he had about 8 million at the end, including GELAC, which is about how much Gore had at the end of his run, which makes the criticism of Kerry from Gore's former campaign manager, Donna Brazille, quite hollow.

[mitchtv]

54. Donna Brazille , quite hollow

thos last four words make sense all by themselves

[peacetheonlyway]

55. she was a kiss ass pundit on MSNBC weeks before election

slamming all democrats...

she is beyond hollow, she does not deserve the word democrat next to her name...

Note to Howard Dean: Don't trust that woman, she's a backstabber....

[LittleClarkie]

56. She was also way too agog at the thought of Condi Rice as SoS

It does bug me that her comments re: Kerry right after the election continue to live on.

[peacetheonlyway]

58. I was the biggest kerry fan on the planet

till he took a walk on the Ohio election recount...
it's almost unexplainable what he was thinking ...

but Donna Brazile is NO DEMOCRAT'S FRIEND..

word is she was 'extra baggage' that DNC head Terry McAuliffe made Dean promise to pay for her and her bloated expensive legal staff to stay on board..

either way, their election fraud report which she was mostly responsible for, suggested that America invest in Optiscans versus DRE Machines because they require a paper ballot but what they sadly dismissed is the same technology used to count optiscans is used in DRE machines (in diebold and ES&S same vote rigging engine) and they are essentially recommending a vote rigging technology...

so bottom line Donna has been also a traitor to the most fundamental American right, the right to vote and she too will go down in history as hurting not helping restore democracy in America....

[LittleClarkie]

63. So why did you take her word for anything at all

like how much Kerry had left over after the campaign?

[peacetheonlyway]

64. $40M

was what I read in a canadian respected journal....
I will have to fish up the site...

the Canadian Journalist was remarking at America's lying down like a dog when
essentially a criminal took the white house and his biggest opponent

quietly
and silently sat by while it happened
so he could take away his pot of $40M and go try for the 2008 election...

in fact, there was some idea there was some collusion of Kerry and Bush because it was awful odd how a man practically broke by Iowa and NH ended up winning the Democratic nomination...

lots of funny business around a pro-Kerry PAC funding the attack ads on dean, etc.

[WildEyedLiberal]

89. No you weren't.

I have read what you have said in this thread. You were NEVER a Kerry fan. Ever.

Your trolling needs some work. You're not very good at it. Back home with you!

[peacetheonlyway]

57. facts RE: The Ohio Recount and Kerry's History

These are the facts related to John Kerry's participation in the Ohio Recount sponsored by the Greens/Libertarian party.

#1 When the judge asked 'did John Kerry want to personally join the Ohio Recount suit' the lawyers said NO. (Kerry's Lawyer was Peter Pekarkis)
#2 He has stayed a party to the suit thru financial contributions only but David Cobb and Jon Bonifaz both said, Kerry contributed little to nothing to their efforts funded MOSTLY BY LIBERTARIANS AND GREENS (which cost over $100K and was never fully completed)
*** NOTE TO WORLD the recount in Ohio was never fully completed... facts on this can be found here..

if Kerry is a party to other recount lawsuits, please educate us.. because the MAIN AND MOST IMPORTANT LAWSUIT, he was AWOL...

John Kerry Took a Walk on the American Public by not fighting in Ohio and not fighting for election fraud to this day, he is only partially participating to not look like the loser that he his, but this a far cry from giving full support.

STILL DON"T BELIEVE KERRY TOOK A WALK ON AMERICANS AND RAN WITH THE MONEY....
watch this video with Lead counsel, Cliff Arnebeck, lead lawyer in the Ohio Recount saying outright
"KERRY TOOK A WALK"... his own words... WATCH THE VIDEO OF NASHVILLE ELECTION FRAUD CONFERENCE...
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/986


History will always record Kerry's cowardice on the Ohio Recount Lawsuit..... and it's only cowardly democrats that give that man one more thin dime.. it's our thinking that honest democrats lose like HOward Dean that is wrong thinking.. honest democrats get RIGGED, SLAMMED, LIED ABOUT and GOP USES CRIMINAL actions to shut them down... we just need to prosecute criminal behaviour and our honest democrats can win...

and it looks like in your other threads, you don't even give Kerry the Frontrunner possibility, making it odd you would fight me on kerry on this one issue...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2604410&mesg_id=2605376

[Minnesota Libra]

53. You mean to tell me you haven't been through enough since 2000 to.........

....make you willing to back "the man in the moon" :eyes: or the "devil" himself :sarcasm: if that's what it took to beat the WH Idiot and his party??:banghead: Well, enjoy then you've got two more years of this crap.

[peacetheonlyway]

65. I just want Howard Dean back running again..

is that so much to ask???

FYI.. here's a good article on how Kerry funded the attack ads on Dean in Iowa and NH....
kerry is not the nice little boy next door... remember, he married rich cause he was a broke playboy with expensive skiing habits....

http://www.counterpunch.org/lewis03062004.html

as long as kerry gets to spend other people's money he's happy

what I like about Dean is that he likes to conserve people's money and that is the kind of person we need to turn around this deficit....

[LittleClarkie]

68. If that's such a wondrous resource

would you like me to search for all the articles where they slam the hell out of Dean?

Strike one: Skull and Bones reference

Strike two: Counterpunch as a credible source.

[karynnj]

87. Why disseminate lies

Counterpunch is a rag - they have spewed unsupported stories about most Democrats. You can believe that Kerry married Teresa for money if you want. Though why a woman who was gorgeous, very wealthy, brillant, and very involved on environmental and health issues would be interested in a "broke playboy with expensive skiing habits" is beyond me. (Aside from the fact that skiing is far less expensive if personal friends and relatives have own ski lodgings and Kerry is known to have spent most weekends in MA with his daughters.) How do you explain the respect and affection that Andre and Chris Heinz clearly have for Kerry.

As to the deficit, Kerry has been pretty much a fiscal conservative. Watch some of the hearings of the Finance committee - it might shock you, both that Kerry is clearly respected (even by the Republicans) and he is very very knowlegable - likely because he has worked very hard on his job as a Senator.

Maybe you should question why the Counterpunch guys have hated Kerry since the 1970s. As to the article, they are seeing a connection that may of may not be there. It is clear that some Democratic donors funded this, it's not clear there was any knowledge or control from any candidates. Look at the quilt by asostiation:

"Among the greatest beneficiaries of these donations was Gephardt, who received more than $417,000. In fact, at least 23 of the 28 people contributing to Americans for Jobs had donated to Gephardt in the past. Some of the donors are also aligned with Kerry and gave almost $60,000 to his campaigns over the years."

So, they are saying that 28 big Democratic donors in total gave Kerry almost $60,000 over his career. Kerry had 4 elections as Senator and 1 as Lt Governor. These are some of the biggest donators to the Democrats. This proves nothing. Kerry did incidently criticize the ad. This article clearly doesn't prove anything. (By the way, Torrecelli divided his money over lots of candidates and organizations - it was legal. He had the money from the 2002 race where Lautenberg replaced him - and he should have given all the money to him. This says nothing about Kerry.)

[wizdum]

66. Kerry won Ohio, Blackwell and Rove stole the election. They are dirty.

[peacetheonlyway]

67. that's like saying it was only Hitler and Goebbels

that caused 6M jews to die..

it took hundreds of thousands German Nazi's to participate in the madness and we have the same thing here...

our congressmen, our congresswomen, our democratic challengers our police officers carrying out homeland patriot act rules our solidiers carrying out torture orders....

it all goes back to that one individual's responsibility for things... and the individidual responsibility of John Kerry to fight for Americans on Nov. 3rd 2004, well he failed miserably in his assignment.

he conceded

game over.....

America lost....

he is done getting a chance to hold leadership in this country...

[LittleClarkie]

69. We shall see

As for Dean, I'm quite happy to have him as my DNC Chairman. I thank him for the four field organizers he's placed in my state. He can't run for President this time. He's busy building the party.

[wizdum]

70. Yes, he shouldn't have conceded. He should have fought like hell...

...and brought the voter fraud issue to the forefront of debate. But he bowed out too easily, and some people suspect it is because dubya and he were both members of Skull and Bones. I regretted voting for him after he bowed out without a fight. He could've really shook things up at that point. Strange that he decided not to.

[LittleClarkie]

71. Anyone who seriously believes that re: Skull and Bones

never took a proper look at our candidate in the first place.

And he wasn't going anywhere without a smoking gun.

Not to mention blaming him for the fraud is like blaming a girl for getting raped because she looked pretty that day. He was the one on whom the fraud was committed.

[peacetheonlyway]

75. I might agree Kerry was

the victim of fraud,

but to use your analogy he ran away instead of taking on a serious fight for his honor and dignity.

at this point, only my opinion, the man has not one shred of dignity left in my book..

but you are free to give your money and time to a candidate so crappy he failed to win americans in a landslide because of his lack of courage and his badly run campaign...

you can give away all you want..

but I will bet my bottom dollar that a dark horse wins nomination again, cause americans are sick of both parties right now... they want fresh ideas and not stale ones....

[wizdum]

80. People are entitled to believe what they want...

...whether or not you agree with it. Kerry was in a position of power post election, despite his defeat, and with leadership comes responsibility. That means he should've stepped up to the plate and used his position of leadership to oppose dubya aggressively, and he should've started by making a major stink about the bullshit that went down at the polls in Ohio. He should have raised concerns about diebold and their links to the republican party, and he should've not played nice AT ALL. The country is going to hell in a handbasket and the criminals are in control. This is no time to make nice. There was no shortage of smoking guns in Ohio for Kerry to focus in on. IMO, he dropped the ball. Many democrats turned to Nader in dispair for help. I won't vote for Kerry again because of it. He failed to lead when the opposition was hungry for a champion, defeat or not. And it is my perogative not to support him. Making comparisions between Kerry's post election behavior and a woman that was raped for being pretty is quite a stretch. Though Kerry did behave more like a victim than a leader during the presidential campagin. His fighting spirit was MIA. Real leaders naturally lead even in times of adversity. That's why they call them leaders.

I like Feingold. He is not afraid to lead. Kerry is too cautious. I don't dislike him. I respect him. But he doesn't have the leadership required to take the country back from the criminals and bring about the radical change America so desperately needs in this time of crisis. Nice portrait of him with your post though.

[windbreeze]

85. Believes what about Skull/Bones?

Just curious what you meant in regards to that?
I watched two videos, AFTER the election...one with Kerry...one with Bush....both were specifically asked the same two questions, did they belong to Skull and Bones... and what could they tell us about the group....oh wait, before I forget...the interviews weren't done at the same time...but the funny thing was, after each admitted they were members of that particular group...their answers were WORD FOR WORD...the SAME EXACT ANSWER....they even looked down and kind of snickered in the same spot while saying how they couldn't talk about it...
I ain't blaming anyone for anything...but I will say...watching those two individual interviews, and hearing them both give the exact same answer...gave me a damned creepy feeling, and made an impression I am not going to forget...I would not like to have to vote for him again...no matter how wonderful he supposedly is...and I DID vote for him last time..
windbreeze

[LittleClarkie]

86. Sorry, I... heh... can't say

Just that S & B = B & S

And that if that's what you think of Kerry, you never did look at him all that closely.

[peacetheonlyway]

88. I'm with you windbreeze

i have 2 friends who went to yale.

never have I seen a case of adult brainwashing so strong in my life.
Both men suffer from trying to live up to their yale backgrounds and never quite feel they get there...

one particular friend thinks he's not living up to the Yale tradition to pursue an artsy career instead of mortgage or investment consulting.... sad effect of a college breeding that breeds arrogance to the point of life changing decisions to live up to an ideal instilled in college...

regardless of the skull and crossbones aspect, I do believe yale graduates like harvard graduates have a loyalty to each other as having gone thru the same 'bootcamp' and to the university for its wonderful early adulthood brainwashing and imprinting..

it still goes back to entitled white boy bullcrap......

[peacetheonlyway]

73. right on Wizdum

i'm with you bruder or sistah....

[mr.alleycat]

79. Right On

Lookie many of both parties dance to the same masters tune.
What I see is they play us.
They hoot and howl about the other to give us hope.
Hope keeps us out of the street.
They were right when the term was coined, "culture of corruption", but it works both ways :(

[wizdum]

84. Sure does...

...both sides are on the take. With only two parties, there is no one to keep things honest. The cookie jar is so stuffed full of hands that the people are deprived of nourishment. The American people may have to rise up and start kicking ass to correct the situation. And if they have to keep selling blood to get gas, that'll happen sooner rather than later.

[ProSense]

92. So let me understand...

Bush stole the election and condone the SBVT despite this "code" you claim, and Kerry, the elder of the two, didn't fight because of this "code"?

So Bush has no allegiance to this "code," but Kerry does?

Ridiculous!

[mr.alleycat]

83. I'm Sorry

But Kerry isn't the answer.

Ask yourself..
When was the last sitting senator elected to the office of pres?
When you play chess, you need a clear understanding of the board.

[WildEyedLiberal]

90. Oh my God, there are like four freeper trolls on this thread

All saying the same thinly-veiled trolling shit about John Kerry.

Thanks, freeper trolls, for reinforing that Repukkkes are terrified to death of John Kerry.

[ProSense]

91. They are getting desperate!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1015710&mesg_id=1015710

[seabeyond]

93. i htink htis is advantage to kerry in '08. ameican people poll they want

nice. no atttacks. that is what kerry and edwards did i think, gave what the amercians were asking. americans are fickle too. that was the miscalculations. kerry admits his errors. in his gut he knew he should come out. august, he could not spend money and allowed his people to convince him not to. not to mention swift boat came out in april and was dismissed. hwo knew msm would take it up like they did.

again, he admits his error

they have put all hte trash out on kerry for 2004. there is nothing new. it will not play in 2008.

a new candidate in 2008 will spend most of their time defending every second of campaign blitz after blitz that the repugs throw at them. kerry will not have the same garbage because he has already been thru

i see htis as kerry advantage in 2008

not to mention he has shown in the last year and half that everything the repugs are throwing out, he immediately address, harshly, clearly. i think this is kerry showing us what he will do in 2008 campaign

i personally wnat kerry to run for a number of reasons. i think he is the guy