Clark's appeal vs. Dean's appeal

[Jack_Dawson]

Every Clark/Dean thread reads the same way. Deanies question Clark's "democratic credentials". Clarkies impugn Dean's "electability".

While both camps have a rabid following, Dean's numbers are higher, ostensibly because he's been in the race a year longer. However Clark seems to be peeling off major support from other campaigns (Kerry, Graham, Clinton). And there seem to be a number of Dean defections to the Clark camp.

Both candidates have a lot going for them, but I've heard many stories of disgruntled republicans saying they would vote for Clark over Bush, but I don't think I've heard a single story of an angry republican voting for Dean over Bush.

In other words, Clark's appeal seems to be not necessarily "stronger", but rather "wider" than Dean's. And if Clark can steal votes from Bush, doesn't that make him the stronger candidate? This is in no way intended as flamebait but rather an open question...and I'm open to other points of view. Just answer me the following question:

To whom does Dean appeal that Clark does not?

[Racenut20]

1. I think you see it right.

Clark can go places Dean cannot. Like to the swing states in the Midwest and upper South.

[thebigidea]

3. well, lets see if he can with the nomination

if he's that great a candidate with massive appeal, it should be a cinch, right?

[MIMStigator]

46. Clark is a heavyweight and Dean is a lightweight

eom

[Demobrat]

2. People who are more concerned about

health care, education and jobs than chest bumping over the bullshit WOT.

[Padraig18]

4. I know several Republicans who plan on voting for Dean

Chimpy has 'crossed the Rubicon' in their minds, and they like a lot of things about Dean.

[Turkw]

35. I know of one Republican blog that supports Dean's nomination, does that

count?

http://www.polipundit.com

[Padraig18]

38. It does.

:)

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. I won't touch that with a ten foot pole!

:7 However, I will add that Clark also pulls in votes from Veterans, Current active Military and our wonderful senior citizens! :bounce:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

6. Is that a big vein in the middle of the General forehead?

[Jack_Dawson]

8. LOL - Yep just like Julia Roberts' vein

Happens to better-looking people.

[Crunchy Frog]

18. Because of the massive blood supply

going to his brain.;-)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

39. He should have a Doctor look at that vain.

[billbuckhead]

9. Howard Dean should be Howard DINO

Over 10% of Vermont voters voted to the left of Dean in his last election. I guess those who know Dean best, know he's a "centrist".

[Padraig18]

15. Yeah, bill, the hated him so badly that...

... they only elected him to five successive terms as governor. Yup, they sure despise him.. :eyes:

[stickdog]

51. And you're not? (nm)

[HFishbine]

7. "To whom does Dean appeal that Clark does not?"

Democrats and independent voters:

Democrats Nationwide
---------------------
Dean: 31%
Clark: 10%

New Hampshire Independents
-----------------------------
Dean: 39%
Clark: 9%

Iowa Independents
-----------------
Dean: 27%
Clark: 4%

http://www.zogby.com
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm

on edit: and apparently, republicans too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=932188

[Jack_Dawson]

10. Zogby also saw Sharpton finishing 2nd in S.C.

[HFishbine]

21. Yeah, and....?

???

[slinkerwink]

23. they can't face the facts that Dean has a larger gathering of independents

republicans, and moderate voters.

[mjv135]

58. Dean? independents?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Republicans? oh, yeah, lots of repugs contribute to your campaign, even Rove cheers you guyus on.

McCain is looking forward to your wide southern appeal too!

[Myra]

16. It's amazing how much Dean supporters depend on polls

Yet polls seem to be as much of a propaganda device as the
mainstream media. In fact, they're conducted by the mainstream
media, right?

"Congress and Media are silent as the executive,
through propaganda and skewed polls, seduces the public mind..."
- Gore Vidal, Dreaming War, 2002

[HFishbine]

25. We're not "depending" on polls

We're depending on an unprecedented grassroots campaign. But when it comes to pure speculation versus the emperical data of polls, it makes sense to point out that assumptions asserted here are not always in line with reality.

[Jack_Dawson]

49. Kick

[Padraig18]

27. We don't 'depend' on polls.

We cite them only, as proof of what our campaign is accomplishing. Don't attack the messenger--the media--- attack their methodology, or something of a substantive nature.

[Turkw]

22. zogby, smoby, zogby always has "interesting" results

gallop, pew, everyone else can poll with similer results, and zoby is always different. Couldn't be the biased and leading questions they use at Zogby, could it? Dean always comes up on top with zogby when compared with democrats.

[HFishbine]

30. Fact Check

More babbling. Dean 31, Clark 10, was from Gallup.

[Turkw]

33. No, I was refering to the post referencing Zogby, Gallop goes up and down

I trust Gallop much more than Zogby. I have also seen some of the questions that Zogby uses, and they can be very biased and leading.

[Jack_Dawson]

44. Kick

[stickdog]

54. Like when Zogby said Gore/Bush was an even race,

while everyone else had Bush by 4+ points?

[Democrats unite]

26. does the poll here on du count?

Since I have been watching it Clark is always in the lead. Or it just the polls that show Dean in the lead that count?

[ibegurpard]

11. Here's one

The organizer of the Dean meet-up that I attended here in Billings, MT was a former Republican voter angry at Bush.

[Jack_Dawson]

14. Really?

That's cool. I'm not being flip I honestly haven't heard any stories like that. I guess I have now. That's cool.

[edzontar]

12. Clark seems to have a gaggle of tennage girl supporters...

See the excerpts here...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=932147

[Myra]

20. Guess all kinds of people focus on looks.

He was "criticized" in this thread for having a vein in
his forehead. Pretty compelling stuff for the discerning voter.

[Bucky]

24. Not teenagers. We're 35-65 year olds who just act like giggly bowheads

I'm serious. Clark really does seem to bring out the giddy knucklehead in me. And dammit, I'm not ashamed of it.

[Jack_Dawson]

28. LMAO!!!

[crissy71]

31. You can put my wife on the list

But I'm not jealous :shrug:

[GobGoober]

13. Uncommitted Independent here

Either of them would do in a pinch. Many of the independents I know don't want Bush in there again, but you know what? Some of us will go for Bush over some of the potential choices the Democrats have in the running right now.

My best advice to the democrats, put up either Clark or Dean.

[Jack_Dawson]

17. In that order?

I think it's a good order.

[GobGoober]

19. Any order doesn't matter

Just don't put up somebody who's been following whatever Bush does. If I have a choice between Bush and a fake Bush, I'll vote the real deal.

[Turkw]

29. Same old Dean theam, we can take shots at your guy, but

cry foul if you come close to disagreeing with our guy.

[dsewell]

32. Dean appeals to those who are tired of blandness?

The one big flaw I see in the "Dean = McGovern = Dukakis = Mondale = lose by a landslide" scenario is that Dean is very different from those three. He shares their (perceived) liberalism, but he doesn't share their Mister Rogers-ish qualities. The only way I can really imagine Dean winning the general election (short of a total Bush meltdown) is if his pugnacious, take-no-hostages brand of populism appeals to a lot of voters as a sheer quality of character.

I'd say Dean appeals to people who think there is a culture war going on in the country, and want to be on his side; the whole dynamic of the campaign reminds me some of the Republicans in the election of 1860, when abolitionism and distaste for the South were powerful motivators.

Clark, I guess, appeals to people who would like to think it's possible to reunite the majority of Americans under something approaching sanity. In a sense I think he's a more utopian candidate than Dean; he represents the kind of cohesion that the country had for a brief while after 9/11, when all but the trademarked fringe thinkers (Falwell, Chomsky, etc.) felt that our common identity as Americans was the main thing. Dean and Bush assume that the cohesion was temporary, and have stated out opposing positions across the current divide.

Myself, I'm a Clark supporter largely because I'm tired of seeing the Battle Between the Red States and Blue States (or constituencies, or demographics, or whatever) as the master narrative of our time. I'd like the country to have a president who is not thoroughly loathed by huge segments of the population, as Clinton and Bush have been, and among the current nine I'd guess that only Clark, Edwards, and possibly Gephardt would be able to escape that fate. So that makes be a centrist—but if Dean wins and I have to pick sides, it's Dean all the way (just as I would have been wearing blue in the Civil War).

[BigBigBear]

40. George McGovern

was no Mr Rogers. He was a decorated WW2 veteren and one of the most respected members of Congress. He was tough as nails, and dead right about Vietnam.

[Myra]

42. "a more utopian candidate than Dean" = my conclusion

I prefer to support the candidates that I think are the best
(Clark and Kucinich) rather than settle. There's plenty
of time for settling if my preferred candidates don't win the
nomination.

[deminflorida]

34. Dean appeals to all those Democratic Patriots that voted for

Ralph Nader in 2000.

[Larkspur]

36. No, I voted for Al Gore in 2000 and like Al Gore I support Dean

Clark appeals to those who prefer the status quo of a Repuke-lite Democratic Party. Clark will never bring true reform because his campaign aides are Clintonistas who want to keep their niche of power within the national Dem Party.

[eileen_d]

48. Did your nose grow when you posted that?

Because it's a flat out lie. You cannot prove it, no matter how many times you keep posting it.

[Crunchy Frog]

37. Actually

I voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 and I find Clark by far the most appealing candidate.

[stickdog]

55. Like Al Gore, right? (nm)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

41. The way I see it, Dean appeals to those who make "emotional" decisions

based on their "feelings." A "feeler" vs. "thinker" in the Myers-Briggs spectrum. A person who tends to think in a more detached, logical "thinker" way will most likely not support him. They will examine the issues, look at a person's record - pick them apart. A "feeler" will say "I like that person - therefore I'm going to vote for them." It's very hard to appeal to a feeler once they've made up their minds by using logic or hard cold facts.

[Jack_Dawson]

43. That's not the first time I've heard that

Does that mentality hold up in the long run?

[poskonig]

52. I'm an INTJ for Dean.

I'm as logical as they come.

[stickdog]

56. Exactly. Meanwhile, "thinkers" thought us into the Iraqi quagmire.

Maybe you and they should think again.

[dansolo]

45. They both appeal to me

I believe that both of them can beat Bush, but Dean appeals to me more.

[thinkahead]

47. I just wish

Clark would learn how to answer a question directly rather than talking around the answer or going off on some tangent for 5 minutes. And he sometimes seems like he is trying pull one over on me when he doesn't really need to - maybe he's too smart for his own good. These are my main criticisms of Clark - and I fear he does it out of inexperience. He has yet to master the "I feel your pain" ability anywhere near the level of Clinton, so I wish he would stop trying.

Of course he has a great resume, and is pretty to look at, and as far as hero-worship goes here on DU, I think Clark beats Dean hands down. Whether or not he would make a good President still eludes me, but I want to believe.

As far as substance and message go, Dean has already answered my last question with an emphatic "yes".

[stickdog]

50. Rush Limbaugh could siphon off even more Republican votes from Bush.

Let's nominate him.

[indigo32]

53. I like em both thx

eom

[robbedvoter]

57. Dean wamts to take the country back - Clark wants to take it forward

That reflects in the make-up of the supporters too. I am not in this to send a message - that was Nader's schtick in 2000. I am here TO WIN and endure a better fiture for my kids.