Does Israel WANT an all-out war with the Palestinians?

[tgnyc]

Israel has apparently decided to stop turning over to the Palestinians taxes that it collects on their behalf. That is, Israel will now keep $55 million of the Palestinians' own money each month. What's up with that?

[Maiden England]

1. So would you deal with someone whose aim was to kill you?

Huh?
I bet not.

Until Hamas renounces their position to destroy Israel, its going to be really hard to find anyone willing to do business with them.

[wuushew]

6. Hamas has honored the cease fire.

Their ideology while foul has not killed anyone directly. Cutting off needed money to a barely functioning government will cause very real and serious repercussions in the here and now.

Likud itself was chartered on an extremist platform but political reality somewhat ameliorated their actual position from party rhetoric.



Israel needs to turn the other cheek.

[cantstandbush]

23. Since Israel has WMDs, planes and Palestinians do not, YES!

All the Palestinians have is home-made bombs and bodies. Israel has unlimited WMDs on their own and what they don't have, we will give them. Who wouldn't want an all out war under those circumstances? The diplomatic/moral war is the only one Israel can't win.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

60. exactly as you say. And YES. there are elements within Knesset and Likud

that want that very thing.

[cantstandbush]

25. Like Israel doesn't aim to kill Palestinians. Israel has a state policy

of assassination and in any country. Why haven't they been taken to the UN about that? Good question.

[FreedomAngel82]

55. Don't the Israeli's want to get rid of the Palestinians too?

[iconoclastNYC]

69. So I bet you think that the British

Were foolish for dealing with the IRA?

[in_cog_ni_to]

2. Hamas has said:

"We will not stop our fight until we see the blood of every Israeli man, woman and child flowing through the streets of Israel."

What's up with that?

[JAbuchan08]

3. Some people think that Israel is in the right by default, because of

terrorism originating in the West Bank. It allows them to rationalize everything from discrimination against Arabs in housing to underrepresentation of Israeli Arabs in the Israeli parliament. Discrimination is necessary to maintaining a demographically Jewish state.

[gratuitous]

4. I think some Israelis want that

Especially as long as it's American soldiers doing the killing and dying, and the American taxpayer funding the massacre.

[sabra]

5. can you elaborate on "some Israelis"?

peace.

[gratuitous]

9. Feel free to do your own research

If you're totally ignorant of any strain in the Israeli citizenry that regards Palestinians (and the larger Arab world) as little more than insects, I'm afraid I'm not inclined to educate you, or give those sort of people more publicity by linking to news stories or web sites that might be interpreted as support for their position.

ON EDIT: However, I will quote a passage from Chris Hedges' book "War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning" (pp. 92-94):

The conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians has left each side embracing death. They each believe that they are the only real victims. There is a celebration of suicidal martyrdom and justification of the tit-for-tat killing of noncombatants.

On a recent trip to the region, I visited the Khan Younis refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. As the searing afternoon heat and swirling eddies of dust enveloped the camp, I sought cover, slumping under the shade of a palm-roofed hut on the edge of the dunes. I was momentarily defeated by the grit that covered my face and hair, the jostling crowds, the stench of the open sewers and rotting garbage.

Barefoot boys, clutching ragged soccer balls and kites made out of scraps of paper, squatted a few feet away under scrub trees. Men, in flowing white or gray galabias -- homespun robes -- smoked cigarettes outside their doorways. They fingered prayer beads and spoken in hushed tones as they boiled tea or coffee on sooty coals in small iron braziers in the shade of the eaves. Two emaciated donkeys, their ribs outlined on their flanks, were tethered to wooden carts with rubber wheels.

It was still. The camp waited, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air a disembodied voice crackled over a loudspeaker from the Israeli side of the camp's perimeter fence.

"Come on dogs," the voice boomed in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!"

I stood up and walked outside the hut. The invective spewed out in a bitter torrent. "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's a cunt!"

The boys darted in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separated the camp from the Jewish settlements abutting it. They lobbed rocks towards a jeep, mounted with a loudspeaker and ptrotected by bulletproof armor plates and metal grating, that sat parked on the top of a hill known as Gani Tal. The soldier inside the jeep ridiculed and derided them. Three ambulances -- which had pulled up in anticipation of what was to come -- lined the road below the dunes.

There was the boom of a percussion grenade. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scattered, running clumsily through the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind the dune in front of me. There were no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shot with silencers. The bullets from M-16 rifles, unseen by me, tumbled end-over-end through their slight bodies. I would see the destruction, the way their stomachs were ripped out, the gaping holes in their limbs and torsos, later in the hospital.

I had seen children shot in other conflicts I have covered - - death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo -- but I had never watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.

[sabra]

11. this is why I stay away from the dungeon (I/P conflict forum)

BTW, being that I am an Israeli citizen, I feel I do have a handle on what is going on. I just wanted you to give more details... The "some Israelis" statement just reminded me of a Bushtalk type of phrase.

peace.

[pocket]

13. dual citizenship, or just Israeli?

just curious.

[sabra]

14. dual.

living in Chicago now...

[gratuitous]

15. Ah, I understand

I was intentionally vague with the locution "some Israelis," but I'd also be quick to point out that there are "some Americans" as well as "some in the Arab world" who are thirsting for a full-scale all-out war of all against all in the Middle East. Because they're convinced that the killing and dying will be done by and to someone else with other people's money.

[0007]

76. Were you quoting from "War Is a Force that Gives Us Meaning?"

[tatertop]

7. They want an excuse to start slaughtering Palestinians wholesale

Sabra and Shatilla Redux x 100 would be the likud dream come true
Toward this end, they will terrorize the Palestinians
into 'starting' a wider conflagration.

[pocket]

12. they are trying to provoke another intifada

so they can claim self defense when they start butchering Palestinians again.

[Colorado Blue]

22. Oh BALONEY. This is really an outrageous comment.

And please, educate yourself about Sabra and Shatilla.

This is a favorite propaganda tool with which to beat up the Israelis but in fact it was a Lebanese massacre, committed during a time of terrible strife and following some truly brutal atrocities perpetrated by the PLO against the Lebanese people.

In fact the PLO wouldn't have been in Lebanon in the first place if they hadn't been evicted from Jordan for perpetrating terrorism there, including an attempt against the life of King Hussein.

The following links are from a Lebanese site, which details the war. There's a section about Sabra & Shatilla. The massacre at Damour might put the incident at Sabra & Shatilla, dreadful as it was, into some perspective.

You can look up Black September in Jordan all by yourself.


http://www.cedarland.org/damour.html

http://www.cedarland.org/war.html

[Ian David]

8. Only the Christian right-wing like Pat Robertson want that.

They believe that Jesus can't come back until Israel and all the Jews are destroyed in The War of the Apocalypse.

The Republican Foreign Policy has always worked towards that goal-- Keeping Israel intact and "safe" until it's time for it to be destroyed.

[ZapaPaine]

10. Israel has been at all war with Palestinians for 60 years

This is nothing new. The war might not be military, but war can be conducted in various ways. You can take tens of thousands of acres through expropriations, through the building of access roads in which only Israelis can drive on, through the building of walls. You can deny Palestinians of very important higher grounds, as well as rob them of their wells, fields and crops. You can make their lives miserable by preventing them from working (hence the 60% unemployment rate), or by dehumanizing them at checkpoints. You can fail to prosecute settlers who murder Palestinians but put in jail Palestinians who kill Israelis. You can subject Palestinians to collective punishment, restricting their movements, denying them of thier livelihoods, their earned income taxes (earned from living and working in the Occupied Territories), and you can systematically, but clandestinely, ethnically cleanse them from Jerusalem. Of course the hurtful apartheid against them does not help, either. War comes in may forms, and it has been going on for decades. When you want a people out of land you desire you can make life impossible for them so that they may decide to leave on their own. Then, it is not called ethnic cleansing by the world's politicians. We know different.

[Colorado Blue]

28. Oh for heaven's sake.

Aren't we leaving out a few details? For example the fact that Arab agression against Jews began in ernest (in recent times) in the 1920's, the entire Middle East has been rendered Judenrein except for Israel, with the exception of a few thousand people; that the very presence of Jewish people is considered an evil?

Your statement, "When you want a people out of land you desire you can make life impossible for them so that they may decide to leave on their own. Then, it is not called ethnic cleansing by the world's politicians. We know different," is actually very appropriate. What do you call more than 80 years of terrorism and war against the Jewish people of the Middle East?

READ:

http://www.jimena.org/

[ZapaPaine]

45. It began as a result of Jewish immigrants stealing land and...

terrorizing the indigenous people of Palestine after the Belfour Declaration. Arabs lived in peace with Middle Eastern Jews until Palestine began to be terrorized, stolen and ethnically cleansed. Read up on history.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[iconoclastNYC]

71. but...but....but....

It's not a WALL...that's just antisemitic propoganda....it's separation barrier....you know....just like the Berlin Separation Barrier.

:sarcasm:

[ZapaPaine]

84. I heard its made of paper mache and cardboard with

flowers adorning it and candy attached so that sweet Palestinian kids can eat them. That barrier sure is pretty!

[meganmonkey]

16. I give this

thread 15 more minutes before it gets moved to he I/P forum, and then is promptly locked for not following the rules of said forum.

Meanwhile, :popcorn:

[ZapaPaine]

18. In that case...

before lockup, let me say that this full all out war on the Palestinians has been done with the full support of the US, with billions of dollars in military weapons given to Israel and, since 1950, with over $50 billion in "loans" and grants given the Israeli government. So, you tell me, what purpose is served by withholding much needed taxes other than to foment anger and conflict? This will only make things worse. But logic has not existed in the Middle East for decades.

[meganmonkey]

19. No need to convince me, friend

I will most certainly not defend the withholding of these taxes by the government of Israel, and I am well aware of the US' role in arming Israel.

I just find these threads more interesting to read than participate, generally speaking. It is difficult for a productive dialogue to occur on this topic here at DU.

[ZapaPaine]

20. I hear you..

Thread I was responding to got sent to the I/P hellhole and I was introduced to the Israeli defenders, apologizers and revisionists that lurk there. Man, you can't communicate with these folk. It's like trying to converse with a brick wall that only spews distortion after distortion. Talk about DENIAL. How someone can try and defend and rationalize the crap that is done in that part of the world I cannot understand. There must be a psychological disorder named for it.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

17. If you mean the leadership

You are damn right they do...

[izzybeans]

21. this is called stealing where I'm from.

And their government has credibility with anyone why?

[Chi-Town Exile]

26. zzzzzzz!!!

Get on board the Anti-Semite Express!!!

[meganmonkey]

29. So you think criticizing the gov't of Israel

makes one an anti-semite? I criticize the US gov't every day, and I am not anti-American.

I have never understood this. :shrug:

[Chi-Town Exile]

32. You seethe with hatred against the Israeli people ...

Just remember that they are in the same boat as we are.

Stuck with a horrendous administration.

Sorry, I get real sensitive about the Israel bashing because as a Jew I have no place in American politics ... I can't go to the Republicans and obviously, the Left doesn't want me either.

[meganmonkey]

36. I think you may be confusing me with someone else

Where do you see any hatred coming from me?

I don't do hate. I find it counterproductive. Sort of like calling people anti-semitic for disagreeing with the Israeli government.

Peace.

[izzybeans]

40. Sounds like nobody I know.

I call B.S.

[ZapaPaine]

34. Looks like this train has been invaded..

The Israel-firsters, apologizers, defenders and revisionists are on board. Get ready to run into a thick brick wall.

For them, as well as anyone else, I suggest reading this passage from "The Untermensch Syndrome", an article I read a while back... Enjoy:

"The labeling as anti-Semitic of anyone critical of the state of Israel’s policies in the continued destruction of Palestinian identity and the increasing domination into American foreign policy no longer has the sting of threat or intimidation it once mastered. For too long this masquerade has been used to silence those opposing anything Israel, shouted at anyone disseminating truth and seeking justice. Like the boy who cried wolf, this charade has lost its power or hypnotic control, and today only serves to breed more anger and resentment against the apologists and smear mongers protecting the cancerous tentacles of Zionism and the crimes against humanity it spawns.

A once powerful marketing tool used to sequester valid criticism and deny truth to millions has been eroded thanks to its overlords’ continued over abuse and labeling of the term ‘anti-Semite’ to anyone even remotely critical of anything associated with Israel and the tentacles of Zionism. To criticize Christianity does not make one anti-Christian. To criticize Islam does not make one anti-Muslim or anti-Arab, just as uncovering truths about the Bush administration does not make one anti-American or unpatriotic. To speak truth about any government in the world does not make us racist or xenophobic to the people of that nation. Why then should criticism of Israeli and/or Sharon’s policies subject us to false labeling and acts of intimidation whose only purpose is to silence truth into submission and hijacking justice from ever emerging and being served?

The time has come to stop bending over to the dictates of intimidation and scare tactics used by Israel’s protectors, defenders and apologists. The time has come to say “Never Again” to such fictional libel and slander whose only purpose is the continued subjugation of truth and awakening. The labeling of “anti-Semite” does not bother us, nor does it stop us from writing truth to justice and reality to intimidation because we refuse to be frightened into submission and silenced into acquiescence by a mechanism we know to be false. Our convictions, search for truth and want for justice supercedes the trash invented to protect the malfeasance ruining humanity and the crimes perpetrated against our fellow human beings. The time has come to stand up and be heard, refusing to believe the smears and the labels, instead living life in truth, devoid of veiled threats and intimidation tactics whose power over us continues to erode thanks to its incessant overuse and abuse. So smear if you must, defenders, appeasers and apologists of human wickedness, continue to blindly believe in the majesty of a fiction you know to be false, ensuring your daily complicity in the crimes against humanity being committed by those you protect and defend.

We are above your labels, above your intimidation and smear tactics, following the path of truth in the voice of our writings and in the convictions of humanity. If pursuing truth, fighting criminality and awakening justice makes us anti-Semites, then guilty we are. If seeing the dehumanization, exploitation and utter destruction of the Palestinian people makes the voices of reason anti-Semitic, then guilty we stand. To defend the humanity of other Semitic people is to defend humanity itself. To speak out against injustice and dehumanization makes us human, to defend it makes you complicit."

How you like them apples??

[Chi-Town Exile]

39. Some claptrap from self-hating Jews. Spare me.

When they start putting YOUR people in ovens then you can complain to me.

Sorry, I have nothing to apologize for ... only thousands of years of Anti-Semitism. And all you supporters of the Palestinians fall for the Jew-Hating rhetoric every chance you get.

You're being duped and used as pawns.

Wake up!

[Poll_Blind]

48. So Jews who disagree with your are self-loathing Jews, then?

That, in my opinion, is the worst insult anyone can levy against a Jew, and you've just done it.

PB

[izzybeans]

58. Yeah a self-loving Jew would fully incorporate the injustice

they've experience and turn it into blind rage. I guess. :shrug:

This is what happens when projecting yourself on to others takes over.

[Poll_Blind]

They consider Gush Shalom self-loathers too. n/t

PB

[Chi-Town Exile]

68. If you're going to start analyzing people, I suggest that

you get on the couch first! :evilgrin:

[ZapaPaine]

52. Ah, the always popular Anti-Semitic card is being played

over and over and over again, like a broken record, to the tune of hiding crimes against humanity, intimidating critics and surpressing the truth. Did the boy cry wolf enough before not being listened to anymore? I know I stopped listening a long time ago.

[Chi-Town Exile]

57. If you are that ridiculous to think that by standing up for my

ethnic group (that still has people walking around with tattooed numbers on their arms, btw) means I am sweeping questionable behavior by the Israeli government under the rug, than you are quite obtuse.

You guys just don't get it ... when you smear American Jews that support Israel you are no better than a skin-head.

[izzybeans]

61. Still in the dream world I see.

Where in the world are getting this stuff?

[ZapaPaine]

74. Man, the Holocaust was pure wickedness but please...

stop using it to justify calling critics of the state of Israel anti-semites and skin heads. What happened in the 1940's has nothing to do with what is happening in Palestine. Yes, your people underwent some serious crimes, but so have many other ethnicities. There have been many, many holocausts and many crimes against humanity. Yours is not the only one.

[iconoclastNYC]

78. Have you no shame?

Using the Holocaust to defend the neo-apartheid policies of the Isreali government is disgusting.

[Colorado Blue]

42. I think you're full of ****.

Give me a break.

Would you care to share the authorship of this tripe?

[Chi-Town Exile]

53. Don't even bother ... it['s probably some self-hating Jew.

That is how these people get around their Anti-Semitism. They prop up any Jews who seem to agree with their cause.

[izzybeans]

38. Yeah.

This has everything to do with anti-semitism. Take your bullshit somewhere else. Your are person of high intelligence it seems.

[Chi-Town Exile]

47. I certainly am, pal. I can see through all the Anti-Semitic bullshit

that you people swallow hook, line and sinker.

Go ahead pat yourselves on the back and tell yourselves that you aren't Anti-Semitic. When I see the same kind of outrage reserved for terrorist groups like Hamas that you have for the IDF ... then MAYBE I'll believe you.

You're living in a dream world.

[izzybeans]

54. Speaking of dream worlds point out

where I support Hammas in anything I've posted.

If you had a sense of decency you'd be honest about what you are saying. But you aren't here for anything other than for right wing fodder.

[Chi-Town Exile]

63. Look sweetie, I'm NO Righty.

I am a Jew and if you don't like the fact or understand that JEWS identify with Israel, I'm sorry. As I've said a million times on this website...

Just because I support Israel doesn't make me a right-wing freak.

I support the United States but I don't support the neo-fascist SOBS that are ruining our country. But you will never see me bash the United States. Additionally, I support the Israeli people because they are FELLOW JEWS. I don't support their government. Capiche?

[izzybeans]

66. Some peopel do, some people don't.

I support not killing poeple how about that. Simple enough. When both sides learn to play humanely then I'll support them. Right now, they are both dangerous.

[Chi-Town Exile]

77. Really? If you support NOT killing people you wouldn't be

so fond of Hammas.

Get your head out of the sand.

That's what I don't understand about you guys ... these people you love so much were dancing and firing their guns in the air on 9/11.

Funny, I didn't see any Israelis doing that.

You see, terrorists exist to cause TERROR and KILL people. If you truly don't think Hammas is a terrorist organization than why should I listen to ANYTHING you say in defense of the Palestinian people?

If you can't even admit that Hammas is a terrorist group, than you aren't being honest about your support of NOT killing people.

I see, the Israelis should be murdered in cold blood by Palestinian terrorists to atone for the sins of their government ...

Hmmm, now who does that sound like? Could it be ... Osama?!

[iconoclastNYC]

81. So everything Isreal does is self-defense

Everything Hammas does is terorism. That's interesting right there.

They are both murders. The only difference is that Isreal has money for bullets, jets, and missles to deliver the explosives.

The formation of Isreal was a huge mistake.

[izzybeans]

82. Now this post tells me alot.

Again I ask you to provide to me where I support Hammas. If this thread was about Hammas my original post would replace the word goverment with hammas.

[ZapaPaine]

62. Tell yourself you aren't an Israeli apologizer...

If Hamas is a terrorist organization, which they very well might be, what does that make Likud and the IDF which have murdered tons more Palestinians than Hamas Israelis.

[Chi-Town Exile]

64. "Which they VERY WELL MIGHT BE?

What planet do you live on?

Hamas takes great pleasure in claiming responsibility when they kill Israeli citizens.

If that makes me an Israeli apologist to call terrorists by their true names, so be it.

[ZapaPaine]

79. What about Likud and IDF?

Answer me this one: IDF has killed 4000 Palestinians. Palestinians have killed 1000 Israelis. Are we counting to see who is more the terrorist because figures don't lie? State terrorism is still terrorism.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

50. Oh for G*d's sake. Don't you EVER get tired of this?

Post after noxious post, dedicated to smearing the Jewish people - not just Israelis, but American Jews as well.

What is up with this?

Never mind - I think your words are self-explanatory.

[Poll_Blind]

56. You just claimed I am dedicated to "smearing the Jewish people"?

Just wondering.

PB

[Colorado Blue]

24. Tax revenues been withheld in the past, temporarily, and will

no doubt be turned over to the PA once certain issues concerning the intentions of Hamas, have been clarified.

Meanwhile you all should think very seriously about the implications of this election.

[Chi-Town Exile]

31. Don't confuse these people with the facts ...

It's only called terrorism when the IDF does it.

Anything Hamas does is A-okay with these people... I mean look at the apologist up thread. "Hamas honored the ceasefire ..."

I'm sure that's going to last... right up until the next suicide bomber goes off at a bus stop or mall.

But I'm wasting my breath here ... these people don't have any outrage when Israeli citizens are killed.

Once again, if you do not want PEACE for BOTH sides of this equation and only rail against one side, than you are no better than Right-wingers.

Enough of you ...

[Colorado Blue]

37. Ah jeez. I do know how you feel. It gets SO DISCOURAGING.

The idea that Hamas honored the ceasefire? Since when? Yeah - ok - it's been quieter but that hasn't stopped the rocket barrages. I will admit it's been quieter. Fewer people got blown up this year, for which I'm grateful.

But who, especially people who believe in progressive politics, could apologize for a violent, religiously bigoted group of people who want to exterminate 6,000,000 human beings? Who believe that only Muslims have a right to own and manage land and govern themselves in the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST? Hello?

Also I think any such "honoring" really is just making time to better prepare for a far worse assault.

But, who cares. As you say, Israeli life is meaningless.

And apparently progressive politics doesn't really mean much, because it doesn't distinguish between Hamas and other terrorist groups; they, apparently are COOL whereas a democratic state which respects the rights of all people, even WOMEN, isn't.

Now I understand why Hitler was able to pull it off. People stood up and APPLAUDED.

[Capn Sunshine]

27. Possibly

I hate to bring this up, but last time I was at Temple,a couple of the AIPAC crowd articulated that Palestinians were to Israelis like the Neanderthals to the Cro Magnons.

Then they mentioned evolution , and it was time to bring about their extinction.

So, hey Palestine! INCOMING!

[Colorado Blue]

30. I have news for you. There are bigots present

in every group of people. Please don't stereotype, and please don't try and reduce this extremely complex situation to an ill-phrased one-liner.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

44. Good point. I was giving the benefit of the doubt.

I've never heard such a thing either.

[Chi-Town Exile]

33. Oh, really?

Thanks for painting American Jews with that broad brush.

Up yours.

I am a Jew and I have NEVER heard people refer to the Palestinians as insects. You're so full of it.

[thebigidea]

46. broad brushes? "The majority of the people on this website are Jew-Haters"

you couldn't possibly find a broader brush on the planet. What a hypocrite.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stop the bleeding]

43. Yes n/t

[sabra]

51. Mods, where are you? .....

[Colorado Blue]

59. I don't know but I'll alert again.

Unbelievable.

[ZapaPaine]

67. If the threat of calling us Anti-Semites doesn't work....

Always go for plan B: CENSORSHIP

[Poll_Blind]

75. Yes, see reply #73. n/t

PB

[Squatch]

72. Can't stand the heat?

you know the rest.

[sabra]

80. I do, and the kitchen is called (I/P Forum)

not GD: Everything Else

[iconoclastNYC]

65. Yes. As soon as they have political cover.

Israel is turning into a neo-Apartheid state.

[Yollam]

70. No, Israel wants Palestinians to be an obedient slave class.

And since they continually refuse to comply, Israel keeps attacking them, and they keep attacking back.

Both sides are acting in bad faith.

[Chi-Town Exile]

83. Attacking THEM?

Tell me, just when did the five year old child that was machine gunned to death in his/her bed a few years ago (although her parents were stupid enough to live in a ridiculously placed settlement, btw) participate in violence against the Palestinian people?

Do you think that child deserved to die? Or is it of no concern since it was Jewish blood that was spilled? If you support terrorism, you are not dealing with this situation in good faith either. Being an apologist for people that kill rather than sit down at the peace table is patently dishonest, btw.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moderator]

85. locking

Discussions re the Isreal/Palestine conflict belong in the Isreal/Palestine forum