Have the Vichy democrats surrendered yet?

[whirlygigspin]

"Quick Marcel, let us surrender quickly then enjoy some wine & cheese."

[Skinner]

1. It's good to see that we're all doing our part...

...to raise the quality of discourse here on DU. Thanks. :thumbsup:

[wyldwolf]

22. self delete

post moved to bottom of thread.

[DemInDistress]

2. call them again and say you dont support a judge who

allows 10 year old girls to be strip searched,its outrageous,is alito a perv? no child should be stripped and humiliated so call,damn it....

[OldLeftieLawyer]

3. Thank you

for the first really good political laugh I've had in a long, long time.

This is perfect.

Alas.

Merci, mon ami.

[arendt]

4. Hey, don't step on my Polish Cavalry analogy :-)

See my thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2391803&mesg_id=2391803

I also have dibs on Munich analogies. :-)

arendt

[madrchsod]

7. well written

and of course true.

[tocqueville]

16. nice post as always

my answer to your "no remedy" is "Cindy Sheehan". Historically only mass movements (they don't have to be violent) change the course of events in such cases. Look at Walesa (another Polish analogy) he had a big role in bringing down the Soviet empire. More than Reagans rockets.

PS : about your question about Enlightment in Europe check here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

[arendt]

29. Thanks for the pointer. Not sure exactly which Q, but good stuff. n/t

[tocqueville]

32. question about Enlightment in one or several countries in Europe

basically several countries thinkers provided the core of the Enlightment's philosophy (not only the secular part). But the American and French Revolutions gave the opportunity to implement the ideas in reality, with diverse successes and backlashes. Enlightment spread later to other European countries at diverse speed, with a lot of backlashes, the latest being fascism/communism. Are we seeing a backlash from Enlightment in the US today ?The answer is obviously yes.

[arendt]

33. I have had that thought, but never in that context

I was clear about the backlash against industrialism. But I always thought
it was about "the dark satanic mills" and all the urban blight.

But you are correct. They didn't blame the nasty-ass mill owners. They blamed
the scientists and philosophers for half-educated asses like Herbert Spencer's
ill-considered pandering to the Robber Barons.

Have you ever read Kevin Philips' "The Cousins' Wars". He notes three rounds
of Enlightenment vs Obscurantism. Looks like were well into round four, only
the Team Newton is missing in action.

arendt

[tocqueville]

39. sounds familiar...

but sorry I'll have to look it up...

[arendt]

47. Its a very lengthy book, with excrutiating detail on who was who n/t

[Joe for Clark]

5. Good one.

[William769]

6. There is plenty of whine on DU

Should I bring the cheese?

[arendt]

10. When Bush calls dissent treason, we whine. When someone calls dems wimps..

we attack like rabid dogs.

These comments are meant to stiffen our side's stand.

If dissent is treason inside the Dems, then you are as bad as Bush.

arendt

[William769]

12. Hogwash.

[arendt]

14. Gee. Just the kind of non-denial denial we get from the WH n/t

[William769]

15. Do you take pleasure in trying to paint me as one of them?

It's not working.

[arendt]

19. Do you take me for an "Osama lover"?...

The subject line demonstrates that we can do this nasty.
Now I offer a chance to do it nicely.

Historically, which is where I try to come from, the French Army was betrayed
from within by the Communist Party. For ten years leading up to the war, the
Popular Front government sabotaged the French military buildup on orders
from Moscow - because Hitler and Stalin were allies. Germany and Russia
had been secret allies since the Locarno Pact of 1925 made them both pariah states.
Then, with the Nazi-Soviet Pact just prior to the war, the French Commies got
the green light to sabotage the war effort.

How about we call a truce and say the DLC is playing the role of the French
Commies, and the Democratic Party is the ineffectual Popular Front.

You are a patriotic Frenchman. What do you say to the Popular Front?

arendt

[LittleClarkie]

21. But that's not dissent. That's defeatism

and attacking Dems for something they haven't even done yet.

It would have to go up a few flights of stairs to be dissent. Right now, it's just thumb sucking.

We're giving up before the fight is done. If you want to know who the Vichy Dems are, look in the mirror.

[arendt]

24. One man's gallows humor is another man's defeatism.

Did you ever see "A Bridge Too Far"?

In it, Gene Hackman plays a Polish paratroop general who is literally
dropped into an impossible situation by the (now acknowledged to
be) incompetent, self-promoting British commander Montgomery.

As he jumps from the airplane into a horrible fire fight on the ground,
he shouts: "God Bless Field Marshall Montgomery". And you KNOW
he means: eat shit and die asshole.

We are in bad shape here. And a lot of people are sick of Dems who
have guns and won't shoot them. (Free pass to Roberts. Free pass on
the War Powers Act. Free Pass on the un-Patriot Act.)

So bear with us cynical old soldiers. We are on the side of the Constitution.
We just wish that George McClellan wasn't in charge.

arendt

[LittleClarkie]

27. And bear with young pups like me

Who don't care who's in charge, just so long as we keep fighting.

Even if I lose, at least I'll know I was on the right side.

[arendt]

30. I'm with Patton...

Don't die for your country. Go make the other poor dumb son of a bitch die for his country.

Fight long and prosper.

arendt

[TankLV]

48. Exactly.

[sendero]

34. I have yet to see a single post of yours..

... that wasn't 100% cheese. So yeah, go ahead and bring it.

[tocqueville]

8. the real Vichyists are the Republicans

the oil barons have long ago surrendered to the Saudi oil flood instead of losing some of their privileges. And exactly like in France they are the ones waving the flag "highest" and calling you a traitor because you oppose.

I don't like your analogy (widely used by freepers in other contexts) because only a PART of France surrendered, the others fought in the resistance or abroad. Let's just hope that DU won't have to move to London.

[LittleClarkie]

9. No but DU has already collapsed in grief

Couldn't wait to fail before they admitted defeat.

[arendt]

11. Its called "facing reality", like how can I survive this debacle...

and do something for my country when my own party has the power
to stop this, and they do nothing?

Is that clear?

arendt

[LittleClarkie]

17. What reality? There has been no vote yet.

We're reacting to a rumor.

[arendt]

20. The whole structure is rotten. If we survive this, we're still in deep...

doodoo.

So, preparing for how to fight in the face of a totally ineffective Dem leadership
is "facing reality", regardless of how this vote goes.

If they survive this vote, it will be by sheer luck. Like ten Rethugs have gall bladder
attacks at once.

arendt

[rockymountaindem]

37. What? What power?

We have 44 (45 if you count Jeffords) Senators! If we try to fillabuster now, the Repubs will use that awful "nuclear option" and then we'll lose the fillabuster and Alito will be confirmed anyway. Then we'll have lost the fillabuster on non-judicial issues, and things we might just be able to win. Following that, the RW spin machine, Scotty and Karl will use the media and talk radio to make US look like the bad guys. That's like two kicks in the balls for the price of one.

The only way we'll ever get this to stop is by getting Democrats into a position of power. Remember all of the horrible shit the admin and Frist did when the Democrats and Daschle controlled the Senate? Oh, right, none of this was going on! If political theatre which will make a bad defeat worse is all you're looking for, then I don't know what satisfaction you'll find out there. Besides which, with only 41 Senators, 91% of our guys and gals can want to fillabuster, but 9% will keep us from doing so. Will you completely abandon the 91% of our leadership (and I do believe we're at least close to that on this fillabuster) and consign the whole party to the dustbin of history on account of the few we can't depend on? That's cutting of your nose to spite your face.

We do not have the power to stop this, but someday we might if only we coalesce to put ourselves in that position. If you want to help your country, join an election campaign and kick a Republican Senator or Congressman from his seat. That's how we'll get *our* agenda enacted.

:rant:

[Burried News]

13. Ouch!!! :) nt

[PDittie]

18. I laughed.

And when I saw Skinner was first in with a response utilizing the 'thumbs up' emoticon, I laughed harder.

(Do you think he's being sarcastic? I wish he would use the emoticon for that, if he is...)

[greyl]

25. Of course he's being sarcastic. Good grief. nt

[PDittie]

40. Wait.

Are you being serious?

:sarcasm:

[greyl]

43. Were you talking about Skinner? nt

[wyldwolf]

23. Have the two percenters recovered from their delusions of grandeur yet?

[arendt]

26. It was just a wisecrack. Lighten up. n/t

[wyldwolf]

28. did you make the wisecrack?

There are too many people on DU making bold but ignorant claims about what Democrats SHOULD be, what they USED to be, and who the REAL ones are. "Wisecracks" like this serve no purpose.

[arendt]

35. Oh. I see. DU needs discipline and you will enforce it. ROTFLMAO. n/t

[wyldwolf]

50. what a reactionary and irrelevant reply. ROTFLMAO. n/t

[applegrove]

31. The resistance survived and thrived because those not directly

involved in the struggle got involved. Brits and Canadians who could speak french parachuted in to mayhem to back them up.

Resistance was in any and everyway - supported by those outside the war.

Why don't we support our Dems that way?

[sendero]

36. Because..

... they're not resisting?

[applegrove]

42. Dems didn't have the right intel when they had power against BUSH.

When they finally started to see through the lies - they had no power.

Wait until they have both information (which is coming out now) and power. Before you judge.

Resistance had no power but they had small networks of intel. Give the Dems a break.

[tocqueville]

38. this is only a small part of the story

there was a part of the French establishment that was basically anti-facist but didn't have the insight of what forces of evil they were facing. When it was too late, they couldn't much other than shut up, even if some joined the inside resistance locally or abroad.

Even Roosevelt (and it was his biggest mistake) didn't understand the strength of the French opposition to the Nazis because he didn't understand De Gaulle - too republican for him. He dealt with Vichy until the Resistance assassinated the representant of Vichy in Algeria. That started a material help to the Free French Forces in Africa. As late as 1944 both Eisenhower and Churchill had to really twist his arm to make him understand that De Gaulle was a genuine democratic force.

You can see some leading Dems today in the same position that some French democrats 1939. They are partly prisoners of the same MYTHS about America than a lot of genuine Republicans. That's why they act the way they do.
They maybe won't be seen as collaborators in the future, but history's judgment is going to be very harsh.

[applegrove]

41. And the resistance used Radio - a new medium to get their message

to everyone on the ground. The resistance did incredible things. They rescued so many downed Allied pilots by getting to the scene of a crash before the Nazis - and saved lives.

They did the incredible.

And they died and suffered.

[tocqueville]

44. it's true.. ever seen "Secret Army" (BBC) ?

my father was a member of the Resistance. Got arrested by the Gestapo, but was released by the SS officer that had just learned he was leaving for Stalingrad... "a life for a life, Mr"... he thought he bought himself a chance of survival. My father smuggled Jews into Spain where they could later join the UK though Gibraltar and maybe the US...

My half-brother fought in the Free French Forces and participated to the Liberation of Paris in the famous 2nd Armored Division and was wounded.

[applegrove]

46. Those are some brave kin you got there. Let's toast them (since Bush

couldn't tear himself away from politics long enough to talk of 'real sacrifice' on veterans day - as it conflicted with the political message of the week). Here is to the bravest of the brave. Fighting the good fight. And democracy!!!

:toast:to father :toast: to half brother

Nope - not seen much in the way of war films. Though I liked Midway when I was 7. But resistance - I read "Guerre des Ondes" in French class - out loud.

[arendt]

49. Just like we'll need to use Internet and cell phones and podcasts...

and lots and lots of encryption.

So, get your PGP before the NSA puts some trapdoors in.

arendt

[brentspeak]

45. Thanks for the negative hit-and-run thread -- NOT