i would like to hear from some older members of DU -- the ones

[catmother]

who were able to live the american dream. i'm 64 -- my husband is 58 and we worked our way up with hard work and were rewarded with pay increases and a better life. it seems like our younger people will not have "the american dream".

your comments.

[WhereThereIsFire]

1. I'm near your husband's age ...

I agree with you. Though we must not overly romanticize the good ol days. Certainly all those political murders in the 60s and 70s helped to put us on the road we find ourselves today. It would be great if America could find someone who would take us where RFK envisioned. But instead we've had decades of corrupt leadership from Nixon to Reagan to Retard.

[catmother]

7. JFK and RFK had the right vision. that's probably why they

were killed.

[NanceGreggs]

2. Good question, Sis!

I'm afraid that your generation may be the last to live what was traditionally the American Dream.

Hard work no longer equals promotions or pay raises, because soaring profits in companies are now distributed dis-proportionately to CEOs and upper-upper management, and are not shared with the workers whose productivity created those profits.

All the 'hard work' in the world counts for nothing, if the company you work for decides that someone in India or China will do the same job for a tiny fraction of your salary.

When you and I were growing up, owning your own home was a reachable goal for the vast majority of Americans. With the high costs of purchasing and maintaining a house nowadays, home ownership is now out-of-reach for today's young adults, who are lucky if they can even afford to move out of their parents' house.

The accepted wisdom was once 'Get a college education' and you can write your own ticket - the jobs will be plentiful. In today's world, how many hard-working Americans can afford higher education for their children? And even if they scrape the money together, even a Ph.D. is no longer a guarantee of any job at all, no less a great one.

Add to all of this the fact that company-sponsored pension plans and health insurance plans are a thing of the past. Too many Americans are finding out, too late, that their pensions can be wiped out with the pen-stroke of a CEO, or a financial scam a la Enron.

As I often say, considering the way the country is going, I'm glad I'm no longer young and just 'starting out', because I'd have to accept the daunting realization that the American Dream is beyond my grasp.

And :hi:

[catmother]

3. you said it well sis. even though we're doing well john never

knows when his job might go to india. if he retired now he would get a pension -- a pretty good one but we would have to watch what we spend. our feeling is if he can hold out until 62 he can collect his social security at a reduced rate and the pension would be a little higher. he's covered for long term disability but i think you know that they will not cover me because of my chronic fatigue syndrome. so if i got really sick, we could be wiped out -- savings, house, everything. that's why i envy the universal health care that you have in canada.

[WhereThereIsFire]

14. Clinton did provide some help ...

while he was in office, I (single at that point) was able to buy my own home, purchase a car without a man as co-signer (even though one dealer here wouldn't let me test drive until "your husband" comes along! Obviously I didn't buy there either!), and maintained a fairly successful progressive lifestyle with lots of travel around the world. But, this most recent serfdom we are all enduring is pretty much killing off any of the progress Clinton was able to bring back to us.

[catmother]

25. that's interesting "your husband". when i was divorced from my

first husband i bought a car on my own, but it took a lot of convincing on the loan officer's part that i had good credit and was hardworking.

actually i'm quite good at buying cars. whenever we do i tell my husband "let me do the talking". i won't take any shit from them and have walked out of many dealerships -- have even had salesman call me back the next day to say they could give me a better deal to which i respond "you had your chance, you have lost my business".

[Medical Speaking]

4. I am 61

In the Regan years the company I was working for and had worked my way up to a good position
shut its doors to break the union. Ended up with the Kellogg and a good paying salaried job
my job was outsourced to Mexico. Started my own business 12 years ago, but since 2000 the year of
our worst rpresident in US history I have lost 30% of my sales. Went deeper in debt to hold my business together. All I can do now at my age is to pray 2006 is better than 2005. Yes I agree with you the American Dream is dead, my kids will not make the money I have made. And they all are educated and having a hard time finding a good job. It is the worst economy I have seen in my life time. Outsourching must be stopped, we are becoming a third world country. Our idiot leader should be impeached....

Good Luck and Happy Trails to all.

[catmother]

5. i totally agree. don't they understand that if they keep outsourcing

the jobs eventually people in this country will not have the money to keep the economy going. we will become a third world country and then maybe they'll outsource jobs to us. it's scary.

speaking of reagan, do you remember when he fired the air traffic controllers who went out on strike? the airlines have never been the same. that's when i started to notice flight delays, cancelled flights. of course, before that there were delays due to bad whether but i think that the firing of the controllers really messed things up.

[EC]

8. We are just like the 3rd World countries

only we don't revolt when the elite take us down...

[WhereThereIsFire]

15. 15 years of college & for what!

I can agree with this too. I spent 15 years earning higher and higher college degrees ... only to end up in a world that prefers Forest Gump. In most workplaces (even academic ones) I've been referred to as "our most over-educated employee" ... and then they laugh! So, the deal we were sold as the American dream is pretty much a washout.

Union buster reaganbushes! May they burn!

:grr:

[catmother]

33. that's interesting. in the late 70s i went back to school. i learned

several computer languages and some systems design. i was working "temp" at the time and would have had to take a cut in pay to become a programmer. so i stayed doing word processing for the next 10 years and made some really good money especially with overtime. and of course, my computer learning was obsolete within a few years. the technology is constantly changing.

[EC]

6. almost...

have had to start over so many times all I really have been able to achieve is the house...

I'm 56 and with 2 degrees, can't find a better job (always over qualified, being the euphemism for old)..so not expecting to actually get there or retire...(401k and savings GONE)

[catmother]

9. i know that feeling. the longest job i ever had was 9 years and i

was an outside consultant -- so no benefits. if it weren't for my husband i don't know what would happen to me. i became disabled with chronic fatigue syndrome 16 years ago and have not worked since. my disability check is a nice amount because i made good money -- but not enough for me to live on if i were alone. i used to be in a support group and all the single women had a really rough time. had to have roomates and live in areas that were not so nice.

i hope things turn around for you.

[EC]

10. Thanks, but I don't see that happening

a couple of years ago I lost my insurance, so I'm waiting for that shoe to drop and take my house too....

[catmother]

11. i'm sending good thoughts your way. an interesting thing

happened to my mom almost 20 years ago. her savings were almost gone. she couldn't take her car into the car wash because if she did another piece would fall off of it. and then one day she gets a phone call. she won $50,000 -- she always entered contests and don't even remember which one this was. of course, $18,000 went in tax but she was able to buy a new car and put the rest in the bank to live on. so you never know.

[EC]

12. Thanks...

I enter contests all the time too...been dreaming...have only won small things, although that's how I got my laptop...

[catmother]

16. do you have kids or anyone who could help you out? when

the times were bad for my mom we really were not in a position to help out. in the 90s we were able to help out a little and then the townhouse next door to my sister became available. my sister called me and asked what if we got together -- her and her husband -- me and my husband and put a down payment. well it turned out that my husband had just gotten a commission check and my sister got a tax return so between us we put down around $10,000. the townhouse cost $91,000. i don't remember what the mortgage payment was but between the 2 of us we were able to pay it. the only thing my mom had to pay was the maintenance fee of $81.00 a month and a small electric bill. this made life much easier for my mom. then 3 years ago my sister was breaking up with her husband and it would have been hard for her to pay her share. to make a long story short, we have a nephew who did really well in the music business. he told my mom to see where she wanted to live and he would pay the rent. so i convinced my mom to move near me in phoenix and i found her a nice apartment in a senior community. every month her rent money gets deposited in her account by my nephew's accountant. and then, last year my dad died. they had been divorced for 47 years but because they had been married for more than 10 years my mom was entitled to dad's survivor benefits along with his present wife. so anyway this added some more money to her monthly income.

so don't give up hope. keep a positive attitude and remember that we democrats are pushing for a better society for you and everyone else.

[EC]

28. Husband and Dad are dead, Mom needs me to care for her

and she is just keeping up with her medication and living expenses. Daughter has good occupation (physical therapist) but the hospitals and clinics keep closing down depts. and using temps, so she has to keep starting over too, so I end up helping her between jobs...She is just getting caught up from this last bout of closings, took 11 months to get new position.

The only options I see, are selling house, finally finding new position with higher pay and buying my own insurance, or (this is the bad one) Mom dying and getting my trust...

[WhereThereIsFire]

19. I lost my health insurance in 2005 ...

my employer of 3 years decided to break my f/t job into 2 p/t jobs for college students giving them no benefits. As I was signing paperwork to leave, I was told "at your age, no one will be able to afford your health insurance." And, I'm very physically fit and go to a gym almost daily. I did "toy" with the idea of an age discrimination suit (position filled by two 20 year olds, while kicking out me an over 50) but debated too long ... only a 4 month "window of opportunity" on that option. NOW, in hindsite, I wish I had not been such a good exiting employee and had skewered them as they so justly deserved.

I now work in a 25 hr week job elsewhere, devised as a p/t position just so they too would not have to pay benefits. And this "professional" level job, grant funded, ends at end of April. In the 60s I would never in my wildest dreams have believed I'd be searching for ANY kind of job at this point in my career.

[EC]

27. I know...

it seems starting over is all we can do, over and over and over...and as I look at the Want Ads, each and every job seems to have different licenses or degrees, so it's not like get a degree and be qualified for fields outside your study...it used to be just have a degree and you were eligible for many different areas. Hell, half of the jobs listed I don't even know what they are anymore...And if you're over 45, forget getting a position WITH insurance, won't happen...


Even catastrophic insurance is expensive after 45 years of age...Never thought I'd be happy to be 65, just so I'd have insurance (Medicare) hope I can last 9 more years...

[catmother]

34. i hear that all the time. it seems the grocery stores only give

a certain amount of hours so they don't have to pay benefits.

[WhereThereIsFire]

17. Retirement ... you must be joking ...

Looking at Social Security info, people our age can't receive 100% of benefits until age 68. If we wait until 70 we get increased perks. They've got everyone holding off on retirement betting we'll die before we collect anything. And employers don't want to hire anyone even approaching 60 ... so there is quite a gap there between when we can still find jobs and when we can realistically draw social security. No wonder so many Ph.D's are working at The Gap.

:cry:

[catmother]

20. i know. my full benefit is age 65 and 8 months. my husband's is

66 and it goes on. as far as age i haven't worked for 16 years due to an illness, but there's a restaurant that i eat in and one day when i was waiting to be seated -- i was smiling -- talking to the hostess -- the manager saw me and very loudly said "you that's who i want working here -- someone with a nice smile". i replied that i was 62 years old and that if i had to wait tables and then bus them i wouldn't have a smile on my face.

i'm here in phoenix and we are a mecca for retirees. so many people in their 70s are working, cashier's in grocery stores, slicing cold cuts. some places want to hire seniors because we have a stronger work ethic than the younger people.

[RebelOne]

24. I'm 66 and I can't afford to retire.

I am working a full-time job and collecting social security. I'm trying to pay off bills before I can retire, but it looks like I'll be 80 before that happens, if I live that long.

[EC]

29. Plus, SS is based on the last 3 years of work and how

many 60-65 year olds do you know making a decent wage?

[Mz Pip]

13. One thing that is very different now

is the high cost of higher education. My husband and I attended public universities in the 60's and 70's and the education was practically free. You could also find really cheap places to live and part time jobs were readily available. I pretty much put myself through college on a part time job. This included rent, books and fees.

Fast forward to the 90s. It cost about $60,000 each for public school college educations for each of my sons. We were fortunate that we started saving right after they were born. Both of them also had part time jobs to cover their extra expenses.

Even with student aid, many families can't afford to send their kids to college. There is less money to go around for student aid and taking out loans can be a scary prospect. My older son is face with a $120,000 debt for 3 years of law school and he freaks out about it regularly. I've heard that this is pretty common. At least he has a job.

I think my husband and I were pretty lucky. We were in the right place at the right time but I don't see that for so many of the young people today. The opportunities just aren't there. This administration has stifled innovation and creativity in science and industry. We seem to be going backwards, not forwards in so many ways.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[NanceGreggs]

18. And the GOP apologists ...

... are always defending the outsourcing of jobs by saying that there aren't enough 'well educated' people to fill them in the US.

Saw one (don't remember the idiot's name) interviewed two weeks ago. He cited the fact that India is now graduating twenty to thirty times the engineers that the US does.

Of course, the interviewer never brought up the obvious: "Would that be because Americans can't afford to send their kids to college to become engineers, as a direct result of their parents' jobs having been outsourced to India?"

Chicken-and-egg. And yet another death knoll for the American Dream.

[WhereThereIsFire]

22. Love this ... you are exactly right!

[catmother]

23. again my sister tells it like it is. they also bring people from india

to work here. american express actually has a division called TATa. they hire these people at a much lower salary. they share an apartment -- maybe 4 or 5 to an apartment near american express so they can walk to work. and then they usually buy one used car so they can get around. i know when i sold my car last year, i advertised it on the internet and the first people to call and look at it were from india. the second person who looked at it bought it (after having it checked by a mechanic) and she was a very nice young lady from india. we can't get mad at these people either. their making so much more money here than they would in india. and the outsourced jobs in india and other places are very sought after because they are well paid compared to what others make.

[NanceGreggs]

43. Saw a woman interviewed on 60 Minutes a year or two ago ...

She'd started working for an up-and-coming computer software company when she was fresh out of college. She'd worked her way up as the company grew, and after 18 years with them, she was making about $90,000 a year, plus-plus.

They brought in a girl from India (on a work Visa which the company had applied for on her behalf), and told their 18-years-in colleague that she would be tasked with training the Indian girl to do her job, as they planned to open an office in India and this girl would be her counterpart in the new office.

Well, you know what's coming - after spending six months training the new girl, our original lady was told she was fired. They'd offered her job to the Indian girl, who was willing to take the position for less than $20,000 - a fortune to her, and it meant she could stay in the US permanently.

This woman had literally helped build this company from the ground up; when she'd started, there were only six employees.

All of that HARD WORK we're always told about REALLY PAYS OFF, doesn't it? They just don't tell you that it's going to pay-off for SOMEONE ELSE!

[WhereThereIsFire]

21. Did my Ph.D. in the 90s

And my first year, as a student from out of state was very expensive. After I became a "legal resident" of the state, it did get lower. NOW, that particular state university has put a rule into place that if you START there as a NON RESIDENT, your status will stay that way until you graduate. Just another way to steal money from the students.

When I received my Ph.D., I was $30,000 in debt for the wonderful experience ... and at this point I can say it definately was NOT WORTH a penny of it, though the university is one of fairly good prestige.

[CTyankee]

26. I retired a year ago because my stress level at my job

was endangering my health. My doctor finally told me straight out that I should quit my job. That shook me up a little bit and I put together a plan. I would collect SS at 65 and 4 months and get a part time job. Medicare and my husband's health insurance at his job took care of health care. Soon after I announced I was retiring my brother died very suddenly and my mother was just never the same. I had been in charge of her affairs for a few years and worried about her constantly. She simply faded away and died 3 days after her 94th birthday.

I am truly fortunate in some ways. My mother and father had invested conservatively and wisely for years and years, although they certainly were not rich (it was something you could do in the "good old days." When he died she was able to live comfortably and even afford assisted living when she was 90. I inherited enough money from her to not worry myself sick about bills. I have a part time job. My own savings were laughable even tho I had tried hard to put away as much as I could. If it weren't for the prosperity my parents were able to enjoy I would not have the life I have now.

[Neil Lisst]

30. Old! Who are you calling Old?!! (I'm kidding)

I know exactly what you mean, catmother.

The percentage of kids returning home to live after college is at an all time high. The jobs available to most 18-25 year old are not good ones, and do not pay a living wage.

The company that treated employees like family is gone.

The company you could work for and retire after 30 years is gone.

They will have toys we never had, but they won't have the open and promising economic horizon. We're back to the 1920s, where some are doing great, and others are doing poorly.

[catmother]

31. my husband works for one of those companies who used to

treat its employees like family. he's got 36 years. could have retired after 30. but he's only 58. he has seen the jobs being cut for the last 15 years. fortunately he has managed to "hang in there" but now it's all about billing the customer. they charge the customer something like $225 an hour for my husband so if they can get someone from india who can do the same thing for less money that's where it goes. they used to pay 100% of our medical premiums. that stopped about 10 years ago. every year we pay more higher premiums with higher deductibles and co-insurance. but looking at the country and how things are now we consider ourselves "fortunate".

years ago i worked for a short period of time for W.R. Grace. they were truly a family oriented company. about 10 years ago my sister went to work for them and it was a different story. the board of directors actually ousted the elder grace and then shortly after his son went.

[MadHound]

32. Not really old, mid forties,

But I feel as though I'm one of the last ones to slip in the door at a closed party. And I still don't know if I'll be able to stay. I have a nice place in rural area, twenty acres with a fixer-upper house. Don't have much debt outside the mortage, so no real worries there. But the future is forboding. I figure that I won't be able to get any Social Security, and thus have been saving and investing as much as possible. Probably won't be able to retire at sixty-five either. But that is what the acreage is all about. Planning on having few if any bills by the time I'm your age, what between installing a wood furnace, wind turbine, and growing my own food. I am planning on growing organic heirloom crops for sale, thus, while I won't be retiring, at least I'll be working for myself.

But I look at the generation coming up behind me, and frankly things look pretty grim. Rising housing prices, rising energy prices, jobs outsourced right and left, I thought starting out my adult life under Reagan was bad.

But perhaps things can change, they did a little under Clinton, but not near enough. And now we're just sliding towards oblivion at an ever increasing rate.

Everybody is nervous, for we all feel that we're dancing on a tightwire economically, one slip and we're gone. And sadly, it's just going to get worse. The American Dream is quickly becoming a myth. What was once common at the end of WWII has faded in the distance, possibly never to be retrieved.

Something has to give, sooner or later. Hopefully it will be peaceful, but given mankinds' propensities, I fear it won't be.

What is truly sad is that the kids today are growing up barely even knowing about the American Dream. Rather, they watch their parents and grandparents struggle and fail, and realize that they are inheiriting the American Drudge, work all day and all night for little in return, and no security ever. How sad, how very sad.

[catmother]

35. well that's a great idea that you have. i'm sorry we didn't buy

more real estate years ago. actually in early 97 we bought 2-1/2 acres for $48,000. we could have had 5 for $90,000 but we would have had to go into debt. right now an acre lot is going for $300,000 and if it's on a hillside which we are it's about $350,000. we also built our dream home 4 years ago before the cost went crazy. if we wanted to do it today we couldn't afford it. they tell me that my house is worth a million (2800 square feet -- custom on 2-1/2 acres) but prices are inflated right now. maybe realistically it's worth $700 -- the great part is we put a large down payment and only mortgaged $120,000 which i pay extra on the principle every month. so our mortgage is down to $97,000. but even with all this equity in the house, if we sold it where would we go -- we'd have to pay the same amount. the only thing i can think of is costa rica. has anyone checked it out. you can live there for about $600.00 a month (american money) -- they say for $1500.00 a month you can live like royalty. the average costa rican makes $250-$300 a month. so that's always a thought in our minds.

i should probably post a thread about costa rica. i've done quite a bit of research and it sounds pretty good.

[MadHound]

37. You would be suprised what you can do on 2.5 acres

Wind turbines only take up a quarter acre. A nice size truck garden only needs an acre. You live on a hillside, terrace, terrace, terrace. With a little acreage you aren't limited by the size, but buy your imagination.

And if you want someplace cheaper to live here in the US, c'mon out here to Mid Mo. My house and acreage only cost $140,000, and the repairs and remodeling we've done has cost us less than $10,000.
You could put $120,000 down on a nice place and have a tidy sum to live off of.

Costa Rica? Nice place to visit, but I really like where I'm at. Four distinct season, a beautiful natural area, with little noise. And besides, after corporate America gets done with Central America and CAFTA, Costa Rica could very well be the same kind of toxic wasteland that the Tex-Mex border is.

[catmother]

39. mid Mo. that's missouri isn't it. we're in phoenix. don't like

the cold -- we're former new yorkers. and as far as planting we're in the middle of the desert. like you we like it nice and quiet. we had to drill our own well, put in a septic, put in culverts and head walls because there are to washes (ravines) on the property. it was a scary undertaking because arizona is very rocky. the words "hard dig" scare the hell out of people because it means hiring someone with a jackhammer at $150 an hour. we were lucky -- we didn't hit any. it would be very hard to leave phoenix. it's like my "soul" is here. from the first time i came here i knew i wanted to live here. love the desert, the wildlife. i just cut up 2 apples for the 8 bunnies that come every day to eat and play. we keep a pan of water out in the desert for the birds, bunnies, coyotes, etc. to drink.

have you been to costa rica? my dentist had a friend who went on vacation and then picked up and moved there. my dentist went down last year and he liked it. i haven't been there but hope to take a trip soon. it's nice to have an alternative if needed. so that's why i've been checking out costa rica. but if my husband can hold out another 4 years without his job being outsourced we will be able to live well right here.

[ieoeja]

36. With technology.

Fewer people can do more work. The "natural" evolution of a technological society means we should be working fewer hours and retiring at an earlier age because we do not need all those man hours of work.

And yet we have headed in the opposite direction because any attempt to discuss this situation makes you sound like a commie.

And this doesn't really make the lives of the rich and powerful any better. In fact, it likely makes their lives worse if they could see it.

[catmother]

40. i've heard that in europe -- actually germany that they work

fewer hours -- get much more vacation time and of course they have universal health care and i'm not afraid to discuss things that make me sound like a commie. i think i'm a socialist -- don't know how much difference that is to some people.

[Zodiak]

38. I'm 34

and getting my Ph.D. in biology (I am a scientist, essentially).

I am in debt to my eyeballs chasing after this "you can do anything you set your mind to" bullshit we were fed in school. The good thing is....the generation after mine wasn't brought up with those delusions. Why do the young not have the work ethic of older Americans? Because we figured out that these companies ask us to sell our soul to them for peanuts, and then, in the end, they pull he rug out from under you.

For me, if I do not land a job fairly quickly, I am leaving this country. Other places value scientists more than the US. You have no idea how much that sickens and saddens me, but what can I do? A six-figure student loan debt forces one to go where the $$$ is.

What we really need to do is STOP WORKING. Stop it. Stop the whole economy and hold it hostage until we return to the old ways of treating employees like family. As long as people still slog to work and eat the shit sandwich we are given, the "piece of the pie" we all feel we deserve through hard work will get smaller, and smaller, and smaller.

[catmother]

41. now that's interesting. i was complaining earlier on a different

thread how ridiculous it is for CEO's and top exec be be paid $6 million dollars. it would be someone like you who might find a cure for cancer or AIDS who should make that money. but i'm sure you wouldn't want that much -- that you want to do something productive and make a decent living, but not be a multi-millionaire.

[Zodiak]

42. I just want to afford a family...one kid.

I would like a small house, a car, and to not have to worry about basic necessities. Just like my parents.

[catmother]

44. that was all we wanted. i've been with my husband for 35 years.

we were both married before. i had a child and an ex-husband who refused to pay child support. when we got together he wasn't making that much and he got hit with child support and alimony and his ex-wife's debts. we lived in an $82.00 a month apartment that never had heat -- froze our asses off. after 2 years we moved to a better apartment. eventually the bills got paid off. we just wanted a little house, a dog. but things changed -- got much better. we're living really well. sometimes i think it's a dream. when my son was born 45 years ago, we didn't have air conditioning, or pampers. had to wash diapers every day and hang them out on a washline.

when we moved to phoenix 16 years ago i was sitting out in my yard by the pool wondering how the hell i went from there to here.

i feel very very "blessed" and i appreciate everything that i have. i never ever forget where i came from and maybe that's why i'm kind of a socialist. i want everyone to have it better. what did michael moore say "if everyone made at least $40,000 a year we wouldn't have crime"? well that was a few years ago maybe it would be $50,000.

best of luck to you.