If you believe that the 2004 election was stolen, do you think it was

[Poiuyt]

Bush and his crime family or do you think it was Republicans in general who did it?

I'm wondering, if it did happen, will we have to worry about it all the time, or if the act was so dastardly, that only someone as low as Bush and Rove would do it. (You have to think that at least SOME Republicans have morals). I think that Karl Rove is at the very bottom of the barrel when it come to campaign ethics. Am I naive to think that it's only a step up from here?

[bullimiami]

1. both. many with direction, many on their own initiative.

total corruption on so many fronts as to be overwhelming.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. I am not convinced it was stolen

and I have been reading a lot about it lately. However, that said, I would like to see it in a court of law so we could find out.

I just don't know about Karl Rove, whether he really IS Rasputin or we have made him out to be so and he's just a garden variety weenie creep.

If there were election irregularities I would think they were on the local/county level in Ohio rather than coming down from the top. People will do a lot to suck up and keep their bosses in and happy.

[Carolab]

11. Did you read the GAO report? Or Conyers book about Ohio?

or the www.freepress.org website?

If so, I don't know how you could doubt it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. No, but I promise you I will read it

So far I have been reading mostly articles and essays about it.

Does Conyers put forth any idea about who? Local? Federal?

[Carolab]

21. I will leave that up to your interpretation of the reports. n/t

[TheFarseer]

3. certainly it was a very small group

if the election was stolen. You can't cut too many people in on this or the secret is out.

[EFerrari]

4. It sort of doesn't matter who the personalities were.

The point is, to secure our elections.

Rove will do anything, so will many of these criminals. But if we focus on them, we're sunk.

We need to focus on reform or kiss 2008 g'bye.

Thanks for opening up the discussion.

:hi:

[librechik]

5. Blackwell, Bush and Rove

so both the party and the president were involved.

[EFerrari]

22. Party at state and Fed level, yes.

But, let them get hit by a truck. Let's keep our eyes on the prize.

[NanceGreggs]

6. I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, but ...

... I doubt that the BushBaby was let in on too much about what was planned, and what would happen. I think it was Cheney et al; I have no doubt about that.

But they know the BushBaby better than anyone, and know he's just WAY TOO STUPID to trust with information they don't want out there.

Don't get me wrong, I think Georgie is as corrupt as they come in his own way -- I just think they kept him in the dark as much as possible (not only about the election theft, but about 9/11, etc.)

A dupe always sounds more convincing to the public-at-large if he actually BELIEVES what he's been manipulated to say.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. What's that word...

plausible deniability? Is that it?

[BlueJazz]

7. I posted on DU once ..Why I KNEW absolutely, Positively that the..

..2004 Election was Stolen.
There is NO bullshit here ..I know it was.

[Ladyhawk]

23. How do you "know"?

I'm curious. I've gone from believing strongly it was stolen to great skepticism. Now I'm back to having an open mind about it.

LH

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

25. So post it again please. Pretty please? I'm willing to beg. n/t

[Fridays Child]

8. Both. The Bushistas are part and parcel of the GOP/neocon juggernaut.

If there is a distinct line of separation between the entities, I haven't seen it. I also don't think they intend for their cabal to ever lose an election. I believed that before 2004 and I believe it, now. And I wonder if even the most serious students of the stolen election comprehend the lengths to which these people will go to hold onto the power they've seized. Frankly, I see it as a political battle on the level of the Civil War. They started this war and they're waging it with all of their might while most of us are in varying levels of denial that it's even real.

[Hello_Kitty]

9. It could be both, really

A small group could have orchestrated computerized vote switching at the national level. Local Republicans would've handled voter suppression and discouragement, as is their usual M.O., with logistical and tactical support from the RNC.

[applegrove]

10. They stole it in many ways. They stole hearts & minds with fear.

Many annecdotes of GOP games. Diebold is still just speculation. It pays off in dividing us. Look for the Repukes to not solve the diebold transparency issue as long as possible. Because it pays off in a wedge. I don't believe one vote was stolen from diebold. But I have no proof. And neither does anybody else. It will pay off in smashing the big DU tent. That is how it will steal votes.

As to Bush responsibility - well finding a long term war was part of Bush's plan from the get go. And the machines being taken from heavy dem ridings and all the other tricks.. part of GOP culture that encourages such games. The "all out desire to win no matter what rule is smashed". That is part of the same culture. You cannot divide Bush from the GOP.

He is their puppet. Not a real leader. Just the token they needed to get power.

A cluster ****.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

14. They Are One And The Same

They control it all, so it was likely a "group" effort.

[electron_blue]

15. Wow, great question

I just assumed it was "them" and never broke it down like that. Let's see, remove all the Diebold machines, and see who squeals the loudest. That will be the answer.

Anyone know the answer to that?

No way was this Bush, personally, he's just too clumsy and stupid, sorry to burst that conspiracy theory, but it's true. Cheney is smarter than Bush, Rove is smarter, so maybe them. Some players offstage, though, is who I imagine it to be. Not sure why.

Eta: Jeb said he would personally guarantee Florida for his brother. Some head of Diebold said something very similar. And - they weren't joking when they said that, although it wasn't really followed up on like it should have been. big surprise. not

[VPStoltz]

16. Considering the Attorney General (?) of the state was Bush's

Campaign manager - few people would have to be cut in on it. But I think many knew what he would do and happily accepted it.

[mestup]

17. The problem is, it gave a thumbs-up to Rep party operatives

They don't need to know if/how/when the election(s) were stolen. They just know they need to get creative in stealing the next one. Look what's happening right now.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=24932

Partisan Pruning
Republican Party Wrongly Tries to Prevent at Least 140 King County Residents from Voting
Steven Lacey is a regular voter whose plan for Election Day next Tuesday was to walk a few blocks from his Belltown apartment building and cast his vote, as usual, at his local precinct. At least, that was his plan until he received a letter Thursday night informing him that his right to vote had been challenged by a woman from the east side named Lori D. Sotelo.

The letter reported that Sotelo had declared to King County election officials, “under penalty of perjury,” that Lacey’s voter registration was not valid because he couldn’t possibly be living at the address he was claiming. “Which is insane,” Lacey said. The 35-year-old insurance company account manager lives at the Watermarke, a 60-unit downtown apartment building built in 1908. However, Sotelo appeared to believe the Watermarke was a storage unit, a P.O. box, or some other location that Lacey could not legally be using as an address of record.

Furious, Lacey did a quick web search and realized that Sotelo was a leader in the King County Republican Party

[windbreeze]

24. I live in Wash. state...

Not Seattle, but it doesn't matter...when I watched this story on the news, it made my blood run cold, and I hoped that people were paying attention...this should be hitting the newspapers from here to kingdom come..I began to wonder how many places this is going on, right under our noses....this asshole from the r. party was on the news...saying it's only right that they scrub voters off the polls with illegal addresses......what I want to know is, what gives him the right to decide that people with legal addresses no longer have the right to vote, because he says so...??? You know what this is in reponse too, right??? The R's losing the governorship of this state by a few hundred votes....crooked and sleazy...what more would we expect???
windbreeze

[mestup]

28. "Waaaa.....Dino should have been governor"

Now they're not just crybabies, they're dangerous ones.

Welcome to DU
:hi:

[AntiCoup2K4]

30. Can we demand a recount on ballot initiatives?

I don't trust these damn optical scan machines that they just introduced this year. Even though a paper ballot is present, there's still a computer & database involved, and therefore, not secure.

If the insurance whore initiative (330) or the latest Eyman horseshit (912) pass by "narrow" margins, I'm going to be very suspicious.

[kansasblue]

18. many groups are paid to deliver the vote. it really doesn't

require a full conspiracy. many could have worked on there own.

[MissWaverly]

19. I think that millions & millions of dirty money rigged the election

I think there were many, many foot soldiers involved, Bush "pioneers"
and "rangers" & technicians whether they were actually Diebold employees or former employees or those just masquerading as technicians, thugs to initimidate voters, subsitute ballots, destroy
ballots, count votes twice, unplug voting machines, those who deliberately supplied bad memory cards, etc. This took a great deal of money, I think they did not anticipate this would be every 4 years. I think they thought the Iraq war would be a great sucess and
a grateful nation would repeal the prohibition on more that 2 terms of the presidency & beg Bush to run again. I think the money has dried up and I do not think that we will see this level of commitment
again.

[bunny planet]

20. Follow the yellow brick Rove. All roads lead to Rove.

No, I don't think it was all Republicans but I think if they suspect it was done, they were willing to look the other way. Unca Karl worked some evil magic after Karen Hughes told Jr. he'd lost, that's for sure.

[OnionPatch]

26. It was the party in general, led by

the Bush crime family. Now that they have the process down, I think it's going to become routine even when Bushco is gone as long as there is nothing stopping them.

[RedOnce]

27. The temptation is too great. It will be done again and again...

until we tighten up the voting machines, change voting machine manufacturers and do meaningful monitoring our elections.

[marions ghost]

29. This is what I think happened...read article below

and yes I do think it indicates a massive failure of the system in general. It would be very naive to think that only Bush and Rove would do this. There is no effective mechanism for investigating election fraud and that's why it remains invisible to the average citizen. There were many Repub 'helpers' -- when you're helping the 'right' guys win and being a good team player --it's easy to avoid the question of morals:
------------------------------

The Miami Herald Feb 03, 2005
ELECTIONS
Ukraine vote yields important lessons for U.S. democracy
BY LANCE DEHAVEN-SMITH

(excerpt)
"...unlike this year's presidential election in Ukraine, the 2004 presidential election in the United States was left intact despite legal challenges and protests. In large part this was because U.S. election laws and political culture fail to take into account the potential for systematic bias in election administration. U.S. laws and public opinion focus, instead, on the possibility that unscrupulous candidates might arrange for votes to be cast illegally by individuals using false identifications, forged absentee ballots, or other ruses.

Election shenanigans were common in the 19th Century and in much of the 20th, but in recent years they have been eclipsed by scattered mischief that is carried out or abetted by public officials responsible for election administration. One factor that has contributed to this shift from the conspiratorial tampering of the past to the massive fraud that is so prevalent today is the poorly conceived effort to remake government in the image of the private sector. In recent years, civil-service protections for government employees have been greatly weakened, and many governmental functions have been contracted out to private corporations.

These changes in American public administration have created a new spoils system that makes massive fraud likely in today's elections because it effectively ties public employment and government contracts to election outcomes. In Florida and Ohio, for example, many corporations, public officials and government workers had a vested interest in the reelection of President Bush. No conspiracy was needed to orchestrate their activities. Multiple biases with cumulative effects could be (and were) introduced into the election system through the independent efforts of numerous individuals acting on their own initiative in the pursuit of the same objective. Until U.S. election laws are reformed to guard against massive fraud, our elections will remain vulnerable to systemic abuses.

To be sure, bias in election administration could probably be prosecuted today under existing laws. Certainly, officials in Florida and Ohio appear to have violated their official oath to uphold the U.S. Constitution and the constitutions of their states. They may have also broken federal civil-rights laws by intentionally weakening the voting power of African Americans. However, these acts of massive fraud have gone unpunished -- and, indeed, uninvestigated -- because most Americans have yet to recognize the new form of election tampering that is undermining our democracy."

Lance deHaven-Smith is professor of public administration and policy at Florida State University.