You Don't Know How To Argue Economics To Save Your Life, Here I'll Help

[norml]

They sell this garbage the same way they sell the rest of their agenda, by promising that Big Money, Low Low Prices, and Jobs Jobs Jobs will come trickling down if only we remove most of the taxes, and regulations on the biggest businesses, and the richest people. Their agenda is all about getting rid of public services, protections, benefits, and rights. While such things can be overdone, the greatest prosperity the world has ever known has been during the times when we have had good public services, protections, benefits, rights, and a system of progressive income taxation, where the richer pay at a higher rate than the poorer. This makes it easier for those who are poorer to have spending money to stimulate the economy, and to better their lot. The economics of the evil movement that calls itself conservative are very bad for business, and very bad for society. Poorer people being able to buy more hamburgers, more CDs, or more of whatever they want, IS really good. Why should someone with a large amount of money buy machines to produce widgets, or any other consumer goods, if there is no demand? Demand depends on the $5 spread over 10,000 people, not the $50,000 in the hands of one person. How many hamburgers, or CDs can one person buy? When the poorer majority of the public isn't buying, the richer minority will use any extra money they have not to hire more workers, or open production facilities here, but to buy out companies, fire workers, close production facilities, watch their stock rise as a result, and call it increasing productivity. If they use their money to open production facilities anywhere, it's in China. You know it's true.

[Name removed]

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[DerBeppo]

24. yeah!

screw small businesses! who needs 'em?

[Name removed]

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[alittlelark]

4. That sounds great if we can Freeze all of their offshore accts.

sigh.

[Name removed]

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[alittlelark]

11. It's nice to see a rose-colored glasses wearing Pollyanna here.

Seriously, it is. Keep hanging out here and reading the Intl news sources... you will find out how much the 'powers that be' LOVE those offshore accts.

[Name removed]

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[alittlelark]

14. So long as the corporate media does all it can to protect the shrub

we have few avenues. The revolution will not be televised.

[norml]

5. Right now the argument is between 35%, and 39% for the top tax rate.

Even though it was at one time over 90%, I wouldn't want to see a top tax rate anywhere over 50%. As I have said, such things can be taken too far, though right now the tax rates are much too flat, and much too regressive.

[Name removed]

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[norml]

9. Balance

Not too much. Not too little. Just right. For whatever works best for everyone. You want to shear the woolly sheep, not slaughter them.

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[alittlelark]

15. Not arbitrary, logical w/in Economic Theory.

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[alittlelark]

19. Time to stop feeding you... so I've been told

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[alittlelark]

25. ...will....not.... feed.....

OK... do your own research.

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[bicentennial_baby]

30. The Laffer Curve

Laffer theorized that the curve of tax rates vs. tax revenue was a bell curve, and that over a certain %, revenue decreases b/c the % is too high and people cheat, but that in the middle, at the topof the curve, the state will get the maximum amt. of tax revenue.

[norml]

32. Sounds very sensible to me.

I wonder how anyone could deny the logic of that.

[Yupster]

36. It's undeniable of course

The problem comes in fixing that point at which economic activity s stopped by high taxes.

A Republican would say 40 % is confiscatory and will stop economic activity among billionaires. Others would say above 90 % would be detrimental.

So the curve makes obvious sense, but plotting where it urves is the controversial part.

[progressivejazz]

41. Let me deny the logic of that.

That it's a bell curve is pure speculation. Why couldn't it be a curve with many peaks, for example? A bell curve is symmetrical, why couldn't the curve be skewed to the high end? These are just two of the possibilities Laffer ignores in his simplistic speculation. The Laffer curve was shot down in the Mathematical Games section of Scientific American by Martin Gardner over 20 years ago. Basically, we know two points on the curve,the first and the last. If the tax rate is 0%, no taxes will be raised and if the tax rate is 100%, no taxes will be raised. What happens in between is guesswork.

[norml]

17. How about this. Your home thermostat set at 70 is better than set at 90

Then I'd say having it set at 40 isn't better than set at 70 degrees. It's a matter of choosing what is reasonable. No, I don't see your confusion. I do see a not very well made attempt to heap ridicule upon this thread by your baiting with an extremist position. You're not very good at what you're doing. Go brag about that.

[Name removed]

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[norml]

20. Sorry, but I don't believe you.

Why don't you go ahead and make your case for an 80% top rate. Try not to trip yourself up too badly while doing it.

[Name removed]

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[alittlelark]

26. I sooo want to feed you.... you're kinda cute.....

but I think 'natural selection' will just have to take over.

[unlawflcombatnt]

23. Balance

You're so right about the need for balance. The "means of production" must be balanced with the "means of consumption." I agree with you that such balance is best for all.

I have already written a letter decribing my views on this. I will post it as a separate topic in the "General Discussion: Politics" section. I think you'll find it interesting.

unlawflcombatnt

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[LiberalFighter]

31. The key is to prevent the wealthy from sheltering most of their income

I am reading the book
Perfectly Legal: The Secret Campaign to Rig Our Tax System to Benefit the Super Rich - and Cheat Everybody Else

It explains how they cheat so they don't pay any taxes or very little of what they should be paying.

[chknltl]

3. Love that perspective, quite elegant thanks n/t

[Dirk39]

7. It's somehow funny to read your statement, being a german...

the neoliberal politics you describe and the "trickle down" propaganda you describe is exactly the same in Europe, esp. in France and Germany, not to mention Thatcher-Blair Great Britain.
One could translate your post and noone would guess that you're an American. The worst of it is that the working class and the middle-class (or the people who desperately believe they are middle-class) are played of against one another, telling them, how low the taxes for rich are elsewhere and how low the wages are elsewhere and how long people work elsewhere.
There are people now in Eastern Europe, who don't even earn a dollar per hour being told that if they don't accept lower salaries, their jobs are being outsourced to China. There might be even cheaper places than China soon.

Dirk

[evlbstrd]

13. They are working to make sure we are all as cheap as China.

I fear for my children.

[Dirk39]

28. There's one thing I will never ever understand...

o.k. most of the people, who suffer the most under neoliberalism in the more wealthy european countries and the U.S. don't vote anymore anyway.
I know that it isn't popular among DUers, but if I understand anything, I understand the U.S. citizens, who don't vote anymore. Not for Clinton, who did try to repair the U.S. deficits on the back of the poor, nor for Bush.

But there are still so many people, who vote against their most vital interests. Many say, that since the 80'ies, since Reagan and Thatcher, we live in the "Me-Society". If only we would!!!
So many people, who should be selfish, who should be aware of their own interests, not to mention those of their children, SHOULD say: ME ME ME, but they do not.
You want a job? You want to survive? Let's lower the tax for the wealthy, let's make it more easy for the corporations to exploit other people, accept lower salaries, accept longer working hours: Someday, somehow, it will work for you, as it will work for us, immediately.
It's so absurd. Our enemy aren't the chinese people, or the east-europeans.
Hello from Germany,
Dirk

[evlbstrd]

37. It's the way the debate is framed.

The policies are disguised as being good for the people, when they are clearly not.
And we must always be distracted by some kind of enemy or external threat.

[leesa]

29. It seems so simple and yet Republicans simply cannot grasp it.

Even though it has been proven again and again that NOTHING trickles down when the rich are made richer, they fall for it every time.

[geckosfeet]

38. Hey,,, how about a hitting the return key once every 3 or 4 lines ??

[norml]

39. The Return Key?

Thanks, I'll have to give that a try.

[geckosfeet]

40. OK,,, the enter key. Used to be return on typewriters.