I am scared.What are we going to do if we lose the filibuster?

[saracat]

We no longer have the money to move.What will happen to this country? Can we ever fix it? I am fearful 2006 will be too late and we can't guarantee a win anyway. What can we do?

[swag]

1. Obviously, panic is most useful.

I vote for mass panic.

[BrendaStarr]

92. Try not hiding all the time at DU

Do what they don't expect.

Get out to the mixed boards and chats.

Make it dangerous for the Republicans to do these things.

We will still need DU for news, and backup, but maybe we will learn to be the rank and file that will get what they want in elected officials because we will argue well in front of America about what is happening, what is good, and what our country needs.

If we learn from this episode to not constantly put our own elected officials down, and to get out and fight our verbal battles on mixed board and chats more then we will actually be in a better position.

Otherwise, we better learn to drink heavily, it seems to me.

[saracat]

97. I have been mixing with Repukes and some of them are scared as well.It isn

the rank and file we need to worry about. It is the SOB's in DC who only represent themselves.

[dragonkeep]

132. they will reap what they sow

They are so far right they are beginning to scare the moderate Republicans. The result of that is that we WILL take back Congress and they will reap what they sow. I would like to see a couple of things happen. One, declare the breaking of the filibuster as illegal since changing the Senate rules REQUIRES 60 votes. Two, throw out all the judges confirmed since the disenfranchising of the minority. Three, begin a true investigation of the fraudulent elections. And four, prosecute all those who participated in the subversion of the election.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saracat]

Do you think people really will? Do most even know what this means?

[kaygore]

15. Yep

I was in Richmond the summer that the frustrations that the Blacks were experiencing fueled the burning of Washington DC and other cities. I remember the riot police on every corner of downtown Richmond at that time.

Remember, when people have nothing to lose, then they are the most dangerous (hence the suicide bombers in the Middle East). Soon, we will have nothing to lose. We have no health care. We have no jobs. As the interest rates soar, we will have no homes. As the gas prices soar, we will have no food and no heat or air conditioning. As the war spreads, we will lose our husbands, wives, nieces and nephews, and our children.

Soon we will have nothing to lose and then we will rise up.

That's their miscalculation. When we have nothing to lose we are willing to lose our lives. We will burn what they have. We will rise up against them.

We have done it before and it is too recent for us not to remember how we felt when we refused to take any more lies. When we refused to let them manipulate us and lie to us any more.

We are very dangerous when they leave us with nothing more to lose.

And, there are many more us us then there are of them. (And the fools have even encouraged us to own guns. Gosh, are they dumb bastards or are they dumb bastards?)

[CrispyQ]

84. And their gated communities will not keep us out!

:rofl: on the gun comment!

[FreedomAngel82]

26. I doubt it

Some people don't even know what it means. When all this started happening I told my dad and he said "what's that?" I was stunned. My dad is a pretty smart person as a civil engineer. :shrug: But I just asked him if he knew about "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" and that helped explain it. People are too caught up with either jobs and taking care of their families, worrying about family members over sea's, or too busy worrying about who's going to win on "American Idol."

[demo dutch]

77. I'm afraid you're right-- It's going to take a lot before people will

start to take notice. It's like Springer says "People don't know there's a war going on, there's is little sacrifice for the most part"

When Gas is at $5 per gallon, another war starts, brink of bankruptcy the Memo start make headway, etc., etc., plus the Media stops doing what it's doing, until that actually happens, and we're going from bad to worse to beyond horrendous, massive public outrage is a no go.

[Protagoras]

86. If they don't now they may soon

The Fillibuster is one last domino in a line that's been kicked over. The latest survey showed a 35% approval of Congress...the REPUBLICAN congress. Bush's approval is under 45% now...that's obscene...it means even RWingers are swinging away from him.

They are overreaching. It may take a bit for the snapback...but its a very big rubber band and it's going to hurt when it comes back and hits em in the face.

[Yupster]

120. That's the answer Protagoras

They are overreaching.

When they go too far, they will lose their moderate voters and maybe even some moderate senators. Then the pendulum will swing back.

This filibuster issue is in need of compromise though.

There needs to be some reasonable expectation that a person nominated gets voted on after some reasonable amount of time.

Under the current system, 41 members of the senate could tell the president that they will not vote for any judge except the list they submit to the president. That is not reasonable or Constitutional.

The president nominates judges. The Senate says yes or no.

I think this year smells a lot like 1994. I think the congress is ripe for falling. All that is missing is the Contract. Democratic leaders need to come together on a positive agenda to run on.

Elect us and we will attempt to change the following four or ten things. I think if they do that, they win.

The filibuster issue to me is a loser though. The position is not reasonable to me that a person is nominated and never voted on. If you don't like the person, then vote no, but to me advise and consent means there has to be a decision made at some point.

[Imagevision]

110. Yeah, f-l-u-s-h as the US, goes down the toilet!

[Imagevision]

111. In the 60's you could protest with media coverage -- not today!

Rove picked up on previous administrations mistakes/errors and seems to have all bases covered.---if they fuck-up?? lie-deny, create other news stories.

They certainly can get away with murder. Iraq, it seems like it's coming back at Rove, he sends Laura Bush over there...get real!!

[Slyder]

35. Karl Marx was right!

He was absolutely right--there is a revolutionary class! But he was wrong about which class. It is the Middle Classes that are the revolutionary class. They are the classes that supplied the leadership for the English, American, French, and Russian revolutions. This is why the Republicans hate the middle class and why they are trying to destroy it. They are very shortsighted. The middle classes are not only the most productive classes (much of the so-called working class is also in the contemporary American middle class), they are also the chief consuming classes. If there is no one to consume, then there is no reason to produce or sell. The plutocrats can't eat gold so they will eventually go down the tubes too. Get the Middle Class riled up and all hell will break loose. The storm is coming!

[GirlinContempt]

66. In Marx's terms

I think you're referring to the petty bourgeois, which he does refer to, as well as acknowledge that they're being destroyed in the class struggles.

[JRob]

60. in other words, the same people from the '60s... I still say we merely

need to refuse to participate in American commerce. Call in sick for a day, a week. Don't buy any thing but what you absolutely need to live. Don't fly or us credit cards etc. If we started doing that alternating months the basters will be begging us to reengage...

(fixed typos)

[Freddie Stubbs]

89. General strikes were never really successful in this country

even when labor unions were a lot more powerful then they are now. Why would now be different? :shrug:

[JRob]

95. Because of the fragility of the ecomomy...

These guys can't afford another big hick-up. And strikes are only one part of the equation. Strikes coupled with boycotts, walk-outs or sick-outs. By boycott I mean stop buying anything that is not absolutely critical to your survival; no new cars, unnecessary cloths, electronics, don't travel unnecessarily etc. 30 to 60 days of this would make a huge dent...

[Freddie Stubbs]

121. I'm glad that such a silly idea will never happen

All that would do is put a lot of people out of work. Fortunatley you don't have the ability to bring this idea to fruition.

[JRob]

124. OK , then lets sit on our thumbs, let Bush put those people out of work...

and gain nothing... Huh, but of course I'm silly for being willing to sacrifice something FOR some thing. LOL

[Freddie Stubbs]

128. There are actions that are appropriate, but ruining the economy and

and putting the most vulnerable of our society out of work is not the way to do it.

[JRob]

133. You're missing my point... So what's the plan?

You seem quick criticize (even belittle) but in your 3 replies you do not share your reasoning or any alternative approach.

[Freddie Stubbs]

139. How about electing Senators and Representatives who support

your views? The entire House of Representatives and 1/3 of the Senate are up for reelection next year.

[JRob]

141. Ok cool, now how do we assure that are votes are counted?

You're going on the assumption that we're dealing with a level playing field. Why do you think that with Diabold and election officials willing to obstruct the process that we'll win anything?

What do you believe people in Fla and Ohio think about the prospects of a fair election in 2006?

[Freddie Stubbs]

142. Do what they did in Colorado

Colorado, a blue state, replaced a Republican Senator with a Democratic one. They didn't whine about voting systems. They ran a great candidate, who won, despite some CO counties using Diebold machinces.

[abluelady]

76. Count Me In

This grandma and many of her age group will be right in there. We did it once before we can certainly do it again. Unless something drastic is done, we are in deep doodoo for a very long time.

[heidiho]

3. As usual, we'll bend over and take it up the tailpipe

like we've been doing for the past four and a half years.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joey Liberal]

41. The militia would take Liberals?

Are you fucking crazy? The militia's probably love Bunnypants Bush. Those crazy bastards have been silent while Bush ruins the country.

[JRob]

62. Ah, militia-folk are Libertarians and typically hate ALL government...

Most of those types up here (N. Idaho) are locked and loaded... From what I hear.

[Tux]

67. Who is crazy?

The fool or the fool that hides among dangerous survivalists?

[Joey Liberal]

91. Good Point Tux n/t

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merbex]

6. Get REALLY active

I'm nervous too. I have acknowledged and accepted that the Repugs in control of the GOP are ruthless; too many people (friends,neighbors)have NOT accepted this fact

If,God forbid,this effort to kill the filibuster succeeds I'm only hoping that it will wake people up and it won't be too late for the Nation

[saracat]

10. I AM active, but it may not be enough.

Even if people wake up, it will be too late.We will have NO power. I just don't know what to do.Some of these suggestions are facetious,(not your) I hope. I don't mean to panic, but this is a very dangerous time.I want some practical advice.

[merbex]

18. Well, I helped to start a non fiction progressive book club

we had 10 people show up last night for a discussion of God's Politics

4 out of the 10 had never done anything that could be termed "activist" this was their first foray into discussing current events. They said this filibuster thing has them really scared. It got them out of the house.

Put a table together at a farmer's market but sell political stuff- buttons, bumper stickers t shirts with logos But also get people's emails that buy your stuff

Plaster your car with bumper stickers

Write numerous letters to your LOCAL paper;preferably the smaller the better. It helps to stand up and be proud and unafraid of being a Democrat who loves the Constitution - it empowers others to do the same

[ArmchairMeme]

143. Interesting

Where? When?

[FreedomAngel82]

28. We don't have power now

We don't have any power now. What, do you think all this talking about it will change anybody's minds? The democrats can pull out all the history and facts that they want and the republicans will just continue their little talking points of "up and down" vote. It's all the same message from them and a big circle. If they're going to do it I wish they'd get it over with. It'd be less painful that way. It is a very dangerous time and not enough people are awake yet.

[JRob]

63. As a collective we have more "power" than these sociopaths ever imagined.

They're counting on the status quo, that (as usual) no one will opt to do anything, plug into their lives and hope for the best.

If we refuse to participate, what do they have?

STRIKE, SLOW DOWN, BOYCOTT!!!

NATIONAL SICK-OUT (D-DAY)- Monday June 6th

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1776390&mesg_id=1776390

REMOVE GEORGE BUSH DAY - Wednesday June 1st

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1781716#1783201

[pie]

7. That is the question of the day

Indeed, what can we do?
Many have family they could not bear to leave
behind, many do not have the money even if they could leave.

[atreides1]

8. What to do?

Don't know, like you say 2006 might be too late and there is no way to know if we'll win.

I guess some will continue with the fantasy that there are other ways to set things right, by talking, by trying to get some on the
other side convinced that we have a better way of doing things.

If we lose the filibuster for judicial nominees, it won't be long before the Repigs find a way to apply it to all of the Senate's business. Until the Democratic Party becomes a political party with
no relevance, and no say in the Congress.

If we lose the filibuster, then it will be up to each of us to decide
how we want to deal with it.

[pie]

11. You speak the truth and the truth hurts.

[bearfan454]

87. Very good point.

They will apply it to everything.

[saskatoon]

126. how to deal with it

It has to hit bottom and then we will have a situation as it was when we got fed up with being under England's thumb and we will start a Revolution.

[Neverarepublican]

9. We will truly be a fascist nation

[jobycom]

12. Sit back and grin

For two reasons: One, there won't be anything else we can do. Government doesn't care what the people want anymore, anyway. And two, it will be the death knell for the Republican Party. They have cart blanche to do everything they want, spend everything they can, and slaughter anyone they wish, and this is the best country they can create?

The fillibuster won't be lost. Even the Republicans in the Senate know that would be destroying their party for decades for the sake of one lame duck asshole with falling poll numbers.

But if they do, the revolution will be televised. It will begin the first Tuesday of November 2006.

[pie]

14. If they break the fillibuster I think they will never cede power

Never. They will control the vote; they already control the militia.

[bobbieinok]

125. RW control of MEDIA and ELECTIONS...what can break this?????????

[longship]

13. It will not stop with this.

I fear that the repugs will not stop at the nuclear option. They will be emboldened by this and will take the same step with the legislative fillibuster. They will lie, cheat, and do everything in their now considerable power to achieve total control. Their goal? To allow CuckooBananas to rule by decree with two rubberstamp Congressional branches and a soon to be rubberstamp Judiciary.

They have less than two years to achieve it.

It's a very scary time for our republic.

[kaygore]

17. Depending on the filibuster vote, what Republic?

[xchrom]

16. hey the bankruptcy bill went off without a hitch

and that was something most americans should have gotten the gestault of -- and here we are.

the way the world ends is with a whimper -- then a bang -- and probably not a bang of our choosing.

now that should make you nervous.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

19. Tweety, Bob Shrum and David Frum just reported on MSNBC

that their "sources" say that the Republicans have the votes to do away with the filibuster. Talking like it is a done deal and that the repugs are just doing some damage control with the voters.

Anybody else reporting this?

[PBass]

21. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Somebody needs to remind these dopes that they may want to still have the fillibuster option in the future, say for instance if Hillary Clinton is president.

[JRob]

61. What make you think there'll ever be another election and if there is...

what makes you think it will mean anything?

If they do this our only hope is a National uprising. A complete refusal to participate in the American economy... The only way to get the attention of these ****ers is through their pocket books...

[ngGale]

69. You can't get to their pocket books because...

all the corporations have off shore money. They are also so diversified, what you give up they make up for in another division.
Look at the amount of the corporate profits over the last year, they are booming. My son works for a major corporation, and he's afraid of their power. They have had a boycott, it doesn't make a dent - it's terrible to be on the inside and know that me (his mom) can not hurt their pocket book. Neither can he, keeping his mouth shut to save his job - one of the few left. Since Bush came into office they have become greedy monsters, and they use to be so nice! :scared:

[JRob]

94. I'm not convinced. They can not make us buy there product or...

service. They can't quickly replace skilled labor. If the Unions strike who will fly planes, drive buses and trains etc. They have no defense for a massive national effort to disrupt commerce. It would cost them hundred of billion of dollar.

Certainly this would hurt all of us in some way, but the options (or option rather) is to put your faith in the Republic of the United States...

[snowbear]

22. Tweety just asked David Frum (a Bushie) why Dem's are doing so good...

in the latest polls verses ReTHUGS. (Amazing that Matthews would even bring that up :eyes: ) ... none the less, he did bring up the latest Wall Street Journal polling data which shows the ReTHUGS doing CRAPPY, and Democrats rockin' and rolling.

Frum (or is it "Frump") :rofl: claimed that they, the WSJ, just doesn't word their polls correctly.

OMG!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[VoiceOfFreedom]

20. welll.. ........ .................

What'll happen is that the "undesirables" will be imprisonned/eliminated first and then the Shadow Government will follow the same pattern that Germany took while it was nazified so that Germany would finally be "pure". I don't know about you but I don't want to be around when payback comes a knockin'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[realFedUp]

23. Question....

a friend asks:
If the Senate "nuclear" motion is offered on constitutionsl grounds,
shouldn't there be a right in the losing minority to a court appeal? Or
does the constitution provide that the internal rules of the House and Senate are not subject to judicial review? If so, that would explain how the filibuster has survived so long and might continue to survive in non-judicial confirmation situations.

[lyonn]

44. Campaign finance reform

Didn't that end up in the Courts?

[proud patriot]

93. It is my understanding that the courts can over rule the Legislature

The supreme court being the final say in all disputes .

which is why the Independant Judiciary was the line
choosen by the Dems . It is why All The Dems are united
on this line drawn in the sand .

[rodeodance]

138. What would be the constitutional issue in the case (if it were

to happen?)--

[AllegroRondo]

140. No judicial review.

The Constitution is clear, in that the House and Senate get to make their own rules. The Judicial branch has no say in how they conduct their business.

[Lindacooks]

24. Reid and the Dems should shut down the Senate.

I'm not sure how they can do that, but they have threatened to, and they damn well should. I'm fed up to my teeth with fucking Repukes acting like they are dictators. They need to be stopped. NOW.

[katinmn]

29. I've been wondering about that. Will the Dems walk out?

Perhaps they should, from both houses.

They should call on all (thinking) Americans to walk out. too, in protest. Walk off the job. Walk out of school.

Because if we lose the filibuster, our government is just one big rubber stamp and Chimp is King.

[Auntie Bush]

54. We should have a "Walk Out Day" the day after they take the filibuster

away. I'm serious!

Actually we should all walk out of every store and not buy a thing till they return the filibuster. If no one buys anything...except food...their cooperations will go bust. Don't use our credit cards, don't travel...bring this country's economy to a f****** HOLT!!!!!!
It may hurt...but we could do it!

[autorank]

83. Well, there you go. Make a point in the language people understand!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$'s

Reid will shut down the Senate and it will be ugly. So what.

But this is nothing. Russian analysts predict $80 a barrel oil prices by mid summer. They know something about oil since they have a ton of it.

That will be the great incentive to all sorts of reform. Don't think people will buy the production arguments this time.

[lumberjack_jeff]

106. A walk out *day*?

How about a walk-out year. Democrat elected officials really have nothing to do in Washington DC. They should form a travelling road show - show the public personally how they are being hurt by one-party rule.

My hope is that at some point moderate democrats will realize that they are an opposition party and begin to act like it.

[laheina]

136. Walk out until...

The corporations wield so much clout with the repugs, hit 'em in the wallet. We would need to orchestrate it large scale.

[Cynot]

25. At all costs we must not give up.

But if the nuclear option works, then our last best defense will be the courts, which while dominated by Republican appointees, don't march in lockstep with Bush like the Congress does.

Of course, the courts are what this is all about. They want to stack the courts even more so that we won't even have any protection from them either.

These are indeed dark times for our country, the worst we have seen since the Great Depression and WWII.

[loudsue]

102. Good Post, Cynot! And A Big Welcome To DU!

:hi::toast::beer: We're glad you're here! :applause::party::kick:

[laheina]

135. Hi Cynot!

Welcome to DU!

[DemBeans]

27. it's a good question

I suppose in 2006 we can defeat the GOP thugs in our states who will end up voting to destroy our democracy, but it won't be easy. And, by 2006, they can do one hell of a lot of damage with this scam - one, maybe two USSC nominations might happen by then, and we're all screwed.

If it passes, I don't advocate rioting or violence, but it might certainly be time for peaceful acts of civil disobedience. Just moving on shouldn't be an option.

[Disturbed]

30. If the Rethugs do vote in this no filibuster shit....

Dems should all just go home to their states and refuse to participate in Congress. We the people should call for a new Govt. according to
The Declaration of Independence.

[enough already]

31. Nobody Cares

Unfortunately. If they did, Bush would pitching cow pies in Crawford right now. I fear we're going to lose this one.

[C_U_L8R]

32. We Have All The Power We Need

We have our votes. We have our walllets (or pocketbooks).
And there are more of us than there are of them.
(no matter how you count it).
SO.....
LET'S GO NUCLEAR !!!!
Our representatives can only do so much.
It's up to us to do our fair share.
Divest yourself of EVERYTHING red.
Don't buy red... Don't own red.
Sell off your red stocks.
March on Washington.
March on Wall Street.
Do WHATEVER is neccesary
and within our constutional right to
TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK !!

Don't wait for the Senate....
they've got their own battles.
This is personal.
And if we sit on our butts too much longer
we will learn the hard way how personal it is.

Every personal act of defiance is a poke in the eye of the administration.
Do it !! It feels good !!!!! :-)

[wiggs]

34. Correct

Without the fillibuster, this cabal is invulnerable.

They already have all three branches of government PLUS the media. They control elections with impunity too. Bombshell revelations about going to war on fixed intelligence, about missing money, about torture, about fake journalism, etc mean nothing. If these didn't change anything, nothing will. We have had whistleblowers, but they get gagged, smeared, or made less important than other news.

Not only are minority parties powerless in this congress, I'm not sure how many of them would go to the mat for the people anyway.

Economic clout is the ONLY power of the masses left. It is going to take some serious organization, but it could work. I offer a quote from a book I just finished:


"It would be great if we could just blame it all on a conspiracy, but we cannot. The empire depends on efficacy of big banks, corporations, and governments -- the corporatocracy -- but it is not a conspiracy. The corporatocracy is ourselves -- we make it happen -- which, of course, is why most of us find it difficult to stand up and oppose it. We would rather glimpse conspirators lurking in the shadows, because most of us work for one of those banks, corporations, or governments, or in some way are dependent on them for the goods and services they produce and market.

snip

How do you rise up against a system that appears to provide you with your home and car, food and clothes, electricity and health care -- even when you know that the system also creates a world where 24,000 people starve to death each day and millions more hate you, or at least hate the policies made by representatives you elected? How do you muster the courage to step out of line and challenge concepts you and your neighbors have always accepted as gospel, even when you suspect that the system is ready to self-destruct?"

John Perkins, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

[lyonn]

46. I plan to get Perkins book

He has been on TV selling his book and what you have selected from it is straight on. The unions don't seem to have near enough power to protect the workers. I've seen contracts for employees to sign before working for a corp. and they have this neat clause call the non-competition/compete clause where you must wait a year or more before working in the same position. If you quit or are fired you can't work in that field for a period of time. Just an example. Hey, even corp CEO's get scraped if they don't keep the board and stockholders happy, the heck with their product. In other words the rules are for the rulers and that ain't most of us.

[chapel hill dem]

81. non-compete clauses

Most non-compete clauses are unenforcable unless the company continues to pay your salary (or a differential) during the period. They exist in the employment contract only to have a "chilling effect" on the employee.

Disclosing confidential information or trade secrets to a competitor, however, is a big no-no and the courts will usually back your former employer.

p.s. I am not a lawyer, but I work with a lot of high tech start-ups and we run into the issue frequently.

[WI_DEM]

33. Get our revenge.

This GOP presidency isn't going to last forever. The Democrats will be able to do what Bush will do when they have the power again and it will be payback, and then the poor repukes will be crying for a return of the filibuster.

[Hippo_Tron]

57. Trouble is, they will re-instate the fillibuster in the lame duck session

[bearfan454]

88. You said

"This GOP presidency isn't going to last forever." Unless electronic vote stealing is stopped it will last forever.

[bluedog]

36. POWER IS TRUTH

we have truth on our side....it will always be..we defended our consiitution.....the GOP is destroying it...History will judge the GOP and it won't be pretty..

Our party has tried to defend the rights of everyone today.......even those that fly in airplanes.....did you know the GOP in the house.....didn't pass an amendment to have our cargo holds checked on planes.can you believe they voted that down?

Is this being aired on the media?....No I suppose NOT.........So is the public safer under the GOP...not on your life or mine......they care only if they WIN in their party name....

If this goes down.......we gave it our all........the day will come when the GOP are no longer in power........until then.....I would suggest the Democrats...............vote against everything and everything that comes up on the floor........They don't listen to our plans anyways...either that or close the doors and go home............We Live to fight another year!

[wiggs]

59. Einstein: "Truth is the enemy of power, now and always" nt

[lyonn]

37. While watching the debate today it appeared

that the Repubs have no intention of working things out. Sick feeling. All I could think of was how much satisfaction I would have if during their vote for these judges that the Dems would just leave the floor. What good would their vote be, zilch. The fact that the minority would be voiceless if the fillibuster was ruled out was mention by one Dem. today. More emphasis needs to be made on this point. I have been very impressed with so many of our Senators, they are good! As one poster here said, most people are so busy with theirs lives they don't have time to watch this. So sad.

[TayTay]

38. We will do what Americans do and have always done

We will get to a point where we are good and fed up with the bullsh*t being fed us and rise up and say NO! That is what Americans do. That is how we got women the right to vote, how we finally began to implement racial equality and civil rights for all minorities and implemented the idea that workers have rights, and so much more. The REthugs think they are establishing a permanent structure that will endure for decades. They misunderstand America and Americans.

Democracy is prone to moments when demagogues get control. It is a flaw in this style of government. This has happened before in America. There have been numerous instances in the various states where a particular individual or group have achieved near absolute power and used it to advance a minority agenda. They have strutted on the stage assuming that their power is God-sent and thus everlasting. Only to be stripped of everything and forced out to pasture. This too is as American as apple pie, Mom and the flag.

Have you listened to the debate in the Senate from the Dem Senators? Have you heard it? Did you hear Senator after Senator get up and say that they don't want to be in this fight because it is detracting from the real business of the Senate and of the government as a whole, Taking care of the people's business. Finding a way to get health care to the uninsured. Making sure that the elderly have a secure retirement and that children get a good education. The Democrats are starting to all sing off the same page. There are parts of each Senator's speech that almost could have been lifted and put whole into another Dem Senator's speech. We are getting our sh*t together people.

What always trips up the demagogues is that they begin to believe their own press and assume that they will always hold power. This is a lie. And it will lead to their downfall. (As it always has in America when this has happened in that past.) Elections are not about the politicians. Elections are about the people. This can be hidden by certain exceptional events like 9/11. But it cannot be put off forever. The day of reckoning always comes.

Remember, *'s approval ratings are down to 43%. Over 50% of Americans now believe that the Iraq War was not worth the cost. 82% of Americans disapproved of Congress intervening in the Schiavo case. And so on and so on. And no amount of tricks or diversionary tactics can make those numbers look any better. Stand and fight. This battle is worth it.

"These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of man and woman." Thomas Paine

[Joey Liberal]

39. We'll have to stand up for freedom

If the republicans do take away the filibuster, we will be one step closer to a total dictatorship. It will be up to Americans to elect Democrats in 2006 and in 2008. If we give the republicans the majority again, I'd say that America will be getting what it asked for.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clarkie1]

42. Don't be scared and don't panic.

The evil empire will fall. They always do.

Edit:

May the force be with you.

[Hippo_Tron]

45. We will win this one, there is NO "moral majority"

Those who are willing to throw 200 years of checks and balances out the window in the name of putting a few fascists on the courts, are are a small minority. This is another move that the GOP is making to continue the culture war that keeps them in power. But eventually the other 90% of the country will start to care and they will have a serious problem.

[Dulcinea]

129. Agreed.

I'd be willing to bet there are a fair number of Repubs that don't want to end the filibuster. This is only a sham to please the Religious Wrong.

[struggle4progress]

47. We'll be mad as hell and completely unwilling to take it any more

[jayctravis]

48. Grind Senate business to a halt.

Like in Schindler's List where Schindler talks about how there will be consequences if one bullet from their factory fires in normal operation.

Read. Everything. On. The. Floor.

"Oh, so you want this document taken up to the...what...she's over there? Oh...this whole document? Isn't she gone today? No...she's right over there? Okay, so you want this entire document taken up...where? Let me count the pages so we know it's all here...oookay. One. Tuh-hoo! Three...and who am I supposed to take this to? She's over there? Oh shoot, I lost count. Okay. One...two...oh these are stapled, let me start over..."

[Rex_Goodheart]

53. Huh?

The Republicans are breaking Senate rules to break the filibuster rule...

What makes anybody think they can't break their rules again to break any sort of Democrat delaying tactic on any other procedural matter?

They'll simply tell the Parliamentarian again to ignore the rules... and proceed with business while some Dem is reading some bill to nobody in particular.

[demwing]

56. Thats not true

They are not breaking the rules. They are changing the rules.
They are breaking tradtition and good sense, but not the rules.

[bonzotex]

74. yes they are....shamelessly, ..gotta break to change rules

From Edward Kennedy's floor speech: 5/18

Here are some of the rules and precedents the executive will have to ask its allies in the Senate to break or ignore in order to turn the Senate into a rubberstamp for the nominations:

First, they will have to see that the Vice President himself is presiding over the Senate so that no real Senator needs to endure the embarrassment of publicly violating Senate rules and precedent and overriding the Senate Parliamentarian the way our Presiding Officer will have to do.

Next, they will have to break paragraph 1 of rule V, which requires 1 day's specific written notice if a Senator intends to try to suspend or change any rule.

Then they will have to break paragraph 2 of rule V, which provides that the Senate rules remain in force from Congress to Congress, unless they are changed in accordance with the existing rules.

Then they will have to break paragraph 2 of rule XXII, which requires a motion, signed by 16 Senators, a 2-day wait, and a three-fifths vote to close debate on the nomination itself.

They will also have to break rule XXII's requirement of a petition, a wait, and a two-thirds vote to stop debate on a rules change.

Then, since they pretend to be proceeding on a constitutional basis, they will have to break the invariable rule of practice that constitutional issues must not be decided by the Presiding Officer, but must be referred by the Presiding Officer to the entire Senate for full debate and decision.

Throughout the process, they will have to ignore or intentionally give incorrect answers to proper parliamentary inquiries which, if answered in good faith and in accordance with the expert advice of the Parliamentarian, would make clear that they are breaking the rules.

Eventually, when their repeated rule-breaking is called into question, they will blatantly, and in dire violation of the norms and mutuality of the Senate, try to ignore the minority leader and other Senators who are seeking recognition to make lawful motions or pose legitimate inquiries or make proper objections.

By this time, all pretense of comity, all sense of mutual respect and fairness, all of the normal courtesies that allow the Senate to proceed expeditiously on any business at all will have been destroyed by the preemptive Republican nuclear strike on the floor.

To accomplish their goal by using a bare majority vote to escape the rule requiring 60 votes to cut off debate, those participating in this charade will, even before the vote, already have terminated the normal functioning of the Senate. They will have broken the Senate compact of comity and will have launched a preemptive nuclear war. The battle begins when the perpetrators openly, intentionally, and repeatedly break clear rules and precedents of the Senate, refuse to follow the advice of the Parliamentarian, and commit the unpardonable sin of refusing to recognize the minority leader.

Congressional Record, May 18, 2005, Page S5410

[ticapnews]

70. Great idea!

And what is step #2 when you get fired and replaced by another cog in the machine?

[patricia92243]

49. My understanding is that they will "follow the letter of the law" meaning

they will read in it's entirity each bill put before the senate- which is the same thing as a filibuster. I don't know what other"legal" things can be done.

[lyonn]

50. Are there repubs that would vote against?

There has been talk but no specific names, we know a few, but is there any chance that this could go down due to help from what, 6 or 7 votes?

[deadcenter]

51. Laugh

all the way to the ballot box as republicans lose elections and relections at a rate not seen since Nixon resigned.

deadcenter

[saracat]

64. I don't know. People would have to care first and then we would have to

count the votes! What are the odds of both those events occurring? Not very good IMHO.

[BillZBubb]

105. I wouldn't laugh too fast if I was you.

When the Repugs in Texas redid the congressional boundaries to get more Repugs elected, some Democrats thought the Repugs would pay at the polls. Result: the Repugs gained six house seats, and got bigger majorities in the Texas legislature.

When the Repugs impeached Clinton, many Democrats thought that act of political idiocy would cost the Repugs control of Congress. Result: the Republicans still control Congress.

If the Repugs change the filibuster rules, some Democrats are predicting massive losses for the Repugs. Sadly, they never pay for political excess. The sheeple don't care. Result: no effect whatsoever. If the economy keeps sucking they will take a hit, otherwise, no change.

[Vadem]

52. We have to get our asses out on the streets! It looks like Tues.

next week is the day! I'm in Alexandria, VA, 5 miles from DC! Who will be joining me with their signs stating "I am mad as hell and I won't take it any more!?

[Stinky The Clown]

109. Not just out in the streets .... right out of DC

every elected Dem ...... out

Go back home and talk with the citizens in clear, loud, strong, unambiguous terms.

Go on ****local**** teevee and tell it like it is. The gospel according to us.

And not for a week.

Until the 06 campaign

[chaska]

55. Am I the only one that foresees riots at Frist campaign appearances?

[Zen Democrat]

58. Take back the Congress.

[Maiden England]

65. 1st rule of history: nothing lasts forever....

the repugs, seem to have forgotten this small fact. With every step they take towards what they deem as absolute power, they actually move further and further from it.
They can't control the media, not entirely. We have advantages that no other society has had before, we have alternative, fast and widespread access, via the internet to alternate sources of information. We are in control of the new media. Just like the GOP spent years building up control of the 'old' media, we've already entrenched ourselves, in what is already becoming the new source of all information. Many, many people are already aware of what is happening. This country has a fine, fine tradition of overturning corrupt and power hungry leaders, in fact, world history shows that ultimately, that is what will happen, again and again, and again. The GOP are fools.
In the short term, things will probably suck for a while, but long term, it'll probably fair near destroy the GOP, while they tear themselves apart in a power struggle between the neocons and the true conservatives. It'll take them a fair amount of time to rebuild a cohesive party able to govern, and in that time, the liberals, will undo most if not all of their damage.

[Piperay]

68. We wait till

'the worm has turned'(and one day it will) and then when we have some control again we use it on them. They will be very very sorry they did away with the filibuster as we shove our agenda up their asses. :evilgrin:

[saracat]

80. Some of us don't have a lifetime to wait.And Democrats NEVER enact

vengenance.Even now, they are trying to strike a deal.

[brainshrub]

71. Don't worry about it.

In most civilized countries, conservatives are the fringe-wacko party. The difference is that here in the USA we've always been wealthy enough to afford their mistakes.

That's no longer true.

I suspect that 2006-8 is going to be very rough for everyone. With the BBV machines in place, the cons will have no problem getting 60 seats in the Senate.

With 60 seats, they'll be able to pass a flag-burning ammendment and possibly get Roe v Wade overturned.

Between Peak Oil, water shortages, currency devaluation, an unpopular war and a gutted industrial base: Americans will have to wake up.

[suigeneris]

72. Here's who they'll propose for SCOTUS:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1486554&mesg_id=1486554

[Vinca]

73. I think there will be a huge backlash against the Republicans in the next

couple of elections. Even the sane segment of their party knows killing the filibuster is the wrong thing to do. When Democrats retake power there will be hell to pay. If the cat killer and his cronies weren't so power hungry they'd realize that and wouldn't even consider lopping themselves off at the knees in the future.

[saracat]

78. Democrats never demand retribution for anything!

Ther will NOT be "hell to pay".

[Vinca]

101. By "hell to pay" I meant that when there is a Democratic majority

(and it's certain to happen at some point), the pukes will be forced to the sidelines as everything we want is passed into law and everything they did will be overturned . . . by OUR majority.

[Enraged_Ape]

75. The same thing we always do, Pinky

Try to take over the world.


...Or at least take back the Senate and House.

[MAlibdem]

79. Take back the Senate in 2006.

[saracat]

96. What makes you think the votes will be counted?

[MAlibdem]

104. because im not paranoid

[saracat]

119. No. Just naive! I honestly prefer your scenario, but as the votes have

already not been counted in the last two elections, I find it hard to believe they will be again.I see painful little evidence of election reform, and even less interest in it. It should have been taken care of before 2000.Everyone was made aware, and nothing was done.

[Stand and Fight]

82. You_____are_____not_____alone.

Unless there is major reform in the voting procedures in this country, I am afraid that they will be unstoppable. I do not think that we will be left wtih much of a choice as to how to react.

[bearfan454]

90. ELECTRONIC VOTE STEALING

will keep the repukes in power until it is stopped. END OF STORY.

[Liberty Belle]

116. Not necessarily...

Here's what's happening in my city.

A corrupt mayor has just been forced to resign.

A corrupt Vice mayor is on trial as we speak.

Several Council members and other public officials in both parties may be going down, too--thanks to a Democratic pitbull of a city attorney.

Now we have a chance to get rid of Diebold. The Council will consider a motion to have our next election entirely by mail, like Oregon does. This would save the cash-strapped city a lot of money. It would also use all paper ballots, with no more voting machines.

So...even if HAVA or our state allows unverifiable machines, out town's citizens' votes would count.

I urge every community to try something similar. We've got to take back our country--starting from the ground up!

Regain control of votes, and the people will throw these totalitarian thugs out on their ears--and into prison cells, I believe.

[cindyw]

85. This is what FDR meant by "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"

saracat, you have to let go of your fear in order prevail. It usually means losing a lot, but only the fearless win in the end. I don't know if you believe in God, but this is a time for faith. IT TRUELY IS.

[saracat]

99. FDR wasn't fighting his own people!

I only have faith in myself and I am unsure what path to take.

[cindyw]

118. FDR was talking about the Depression not the war.

[rhett o rick]

98. I would rather lose the filibuster than compromise.

Personally, i think we are already on a path we can't stop. I can't think of any time in history when the thugs got power that the intellectuals could recover, or survive. Remember Cambodia and the killing fields. Intellectuals and professionals were murdered. Bill O'Really is already suggesting this (beheading the LA Times editor)and another right wing radio host suggested strangling Michael Moore. It is here, it is now. A compromise on the filibuster issue is only a slight delay. They control the media, voting machines, the Presidency, Congress, and now the Judiciary. I suppose the last straw is when the Demo Congresspeople lose their free haircuts (right wing only).

[Ksec]

100. Relax. The tide is turning our way

IE, Fox news ratings tanking and the horrid poll numbers of ZBush.

Let em have their way and the countries mood is quickly turning against these bastards

[saracat]

103. Sure. They said that at election time too!

I'll believe it when I see it. So far nothing has stuck!

[ProudDad]

107. One Senator can Halt the Senate

It would only take one Senator to refuse to give "consent" for the bending of the rules of the Senate that goes on all the time to bring the Senate to a screaching halt.

4 or 5 Senators can tag-team and NOTHING will get done.

The revolutionary in me (most of me) hopes Frist does it. If that doesn't grow some spine in a majority of the Dems, I don't know what will. If it doesn't, I'll leave.

In spite of what the "amerika firsters" say, I've been to many other countries and many of them are MUCH nicer to live in than here.

So, worry not.


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[Sparkly]

108. Here's one idea.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3697382&mesg_id=3697382

Edited to add disclaimer: I do know the person who posted this. Uh, carnally. But I don't usually link his threads.

[cry baby]

112. I'm scared witless...

Everyone says killing the filibuster will hurt the repubs, but nothing has really stuck yet. The only hope I have is that this will be the last straw. Polls show that the people don't want this, but they're going to do it anyway. WTF? Just like the Schiavo case.

Do they do whatever they please cause they know that Diebold is on their side? I believe that now.

[Sparkly]

113. Yes, and because they CAN.

And along the way, they "explain" it with bogus, misleading, propagandizecd talking-points that every proper Freeper memorizes and parrots.

And although voters may be pissed, by election time it'll be forgotten (they'll be sure of that, replacing it with something supposedly more important) and the REAL issue will be how horrible every Democratic opponent is.

[cry baby]

114. I can't believe that with all the brilliant dems, why can't we get

in the game of soundbites and re-naming issues in a way that is beneficial to the left. We aren't in that game, in fact, we aren't even in that ballpark. I scratch my head and wonder!?!

[Sparkly]

115. I know exactly what you're saying.

Remember that it took them 30 years and millions of dollars in think-tanks, focus groups and propaganda to establish the memes, stereotypes, lies, and media/political vehicles for them to continue and thrive... Maybe having the truth on our side, Democrats just didn't see it all coming.

Back when a large part of the current rightwing movement identified with "The Moral Majority" (about 20 years ago), there was a popular bumpersticker: "The Moral Majority is Neither." They were a dangerous fringe, but still a fringe. Now that same mentality is wielding incredible political power.

We have a lot of catching up to do, but the whole playing field is different now. Think-tanks and focus groups alone won't do it. I think our leaders need to be BOLD and respond strongly, and rather than cooperate, turn back and lay a Constitutional Crisis at the GOP's feet.

There's nothing to lose now in telling it like it is, and nothing to gain in heeding all the free advice from rightwing media about being "polite" or not being "loose cannons" -- I think we've got some fighters now, and they should fight loudly, using all the terms that set others' hair on fire until they become commonplace: fascism, theocracy, dictatorship, lies, greed, corruption, puppets, oil, Saudis, manipulation, propaganda, ALL of it. There's nothing to lose if they'd all go out there and lay it on the table, no holds barred.

[Liberty Belle]

117. Kick! I agree. Time to call a spade a spade.

America needs to know that fascist totalitarian theocrats have taken over America, with help from their corporate backers in the media cartel.

[Trajan]

122. Wait a Second ...... Wait wait WAIT ! ....

Dont Fret, O' Saracat ! ....

We want to keep the filibuster, yes ....

BUT: Even if we do lose it, that isnt the last word ....

The minority party has MANY things it could do to bottle up the Senate .... They could make EVERY step go BY THE BOOK, things they normally agree to waive in the air of collegiality which USED to inhabit the walls of the Senate in centuries past, they can now force compliance with the rules ....

The Democrats could bring the Senate to a CRAWL ..... Forcing it to take a MONTH what would usually take 1/2 day ...... The could simply deny it a quorum, under which the Senate cannot do ANY business ....

Dont Fret, Mon Amie .... Reid knows that his 'procedural option' far outweighs the possible damage of the loss of the filibuster in a 'nucular option' ...

Furthermore: The people are on the Democrats side on this issue: They will be just as inflamed to see THEIR will subverted for the good of the Religious WACKOS on the Right ....

THEY will not be pleased one bit ....

BTW: I love Boulder ... Found a room near Table Mesa and Broadway ... I sit on a bench outside and enjoy a wonderful view of the Flatirons, bigger than life ..... This town is gorgeous .....

[kodi]

123. lets play chess, support a constitutional amendment to allow fillibusters

the right made their move to consolidate power in the hands of the majority at the expense of minority rights.

so, pledge to support a constitutional amendment for the fillibuster in the Senate.

this forces one to side either with the respect for the minority or admits that one has no qualms about silencing the minority.

as much as i think americans are in many ways dull-eyed and empty-headed, they do have an almost instinctive appreciation for the underdog, little guy, the minority.

if the GOP can be manuevered to stand against such an amendment, then they can be cast as anti-american, and as those who do not care at all for the underdog, the little guy, and in fact, individually, alll of us.

bingo.

[ray of light]

127. We have no time for fear, we must get out and get people INVOLVED

That means we join the Democracy Cell Project. We learn how to become effective activists there. And we involve every single person we know and take our message to the streets. We do it now as if there is no tomorrow. Because in fact...there really is no tomorrow.

http://www.democracycellproject.net

Come to the live chat at 9pm est and talk about your ideas and concerns with experienced activists. Join now. Don't wait.

[mvd]

130. I'd love for the Democrats to walk out of the Senate for the day

..if they end it. Also walk out on every day when a previously blocked nominee comes up for a vote. They can't say we didn't try to compromise. We also need a well-timed blitz on TV to explain what is going on.

[mvd]

131. Oh, and obstruct Bush's social security program

The walk-outs and obstruction are not so bad when you consider that even if the election wasn't stolen in 2004, there is no mandate - and those blue states deserve some voice in policy making.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

134. Emigrate? Florence, Paris, Munich all looking nice these days

Or Mexico City for that matter. I can't stand to think what this country will become with these radical nutcases in the federal judiciary.

[laheina]

137. You aren't alone saracat!

I'm also worried that unless something large-scale happens, the next election will be another Diebold gimmee for the new fascist regime.