How do you respond to the excommunication of democrats???

[txaslftist]

There are about four threads running this a.m. expressing outrage about how the pastor of a Southern Baptist Church in North Carolina ecommunicated nine democrats from the congregation. Forty other congregants (not sure of their politics) walked out in protest, but the balance of the thugs in the church applauded the pastor's decision.

Obviously this is outrageous, and the church should lose its taxexempt status for starters, but what other types of responses should be made?

Should we call on all democrats to leave the Southern Baptist Church? Should we organize a march in protest? Should we protest at our local Southern Baptist Church?

This isn't something to take lying down, IMO, but what should we do about it?

[whistle]

1. Send in an IRS team to audit the church's books

[carnie_sf]

2. That would be the preferred response

[billbuckhead]

4. We should ask President Bush for help

Use this as a wedge issue aginst RepuKKKes.

[txaslftist]

6. Do we really need to call in The Government on this?

Isn't there a more immediate, grass-roots type of response that doesn't involve bureaucrats fiddling around for six months conducting an investigation, securing an insincere apology and a temporary resignation and really accomplishing nothing?

[whistle]

21. Hell no, why do churches enjoy tax exempt status....

<snip>
Tax Benefits and Abuses of Having "Church" Status

The Internal Revenue Code (the Code) provides some major benefits for the subclass of 501(c)(3) entities known as churches. This article describes the definition of a church, the Code's special benefits for churches, and several types of entities that the Internal Revenue Service has determined do not qualify as a church.

What is a Church?
While the Code does not itself define a "church," the IRS Internal Revenue Manual has identified 14 factors that suggest that a 501(c)(3) entity is a church. Some of these are distinct entity existence, recognized creed, definite ecclesiastical government, formal code of doctrine and discipline, distinct religious history, membership not associated with any other church or denomination, ministers who are ordained after a prescribed course of study, places of worship, literature of its own, established congregations and places of worship, regular worship, and religious instruction. Under the Code, "church" includes organized congregations of worship, such as parishes, mosques, temples, tabernacles, and synagogues.

However, not all tax-exempt religious organizations qualify as a church. Nondenominational ministries, interdenominational and ecumenical organizations, and other entities whose principal purpose is the study or advancement of religion, if they are not integrated auxiliaries of a church, are not considered to be churches by the IRS. Outside of the traditional religions, it can be difficult to define exactly what a church is because of the broad protection granted to religion under the First Amendment of the Constitution. The organizational structure is not determinative, and churches can be unincorporated associations, nonprofit corporations, corporations sole, or charitable trusts. A church can also be an "organized" association with no name, no charter, no permanent headquarters, and no comprehensive records, so long as a formally structured group exists exclusively for appropriate religious purposes. Each organization's facts and circumstances will be individually evaluated to determine whether it qualifies for "church" status.

<more>
<link> http://www.rothgerber.com/newslettersarticles/ff026.asp

[Walt Starr]

19. BINGO, contact the IRS

This church is not longer a church. It is now a PAC.

[whistle]

22. Exactly and the remaining members are PAC donors

...to a single party. The democrats who were forced out have civil suit grounds I believe.

[Jose Diablo]

27. You donors to PAC cannot deduct those donations on taxes

Let me see, that means all those republican democrates at that chruch will also have to pay taxes on the 'church' contributions. I wonder if they will cheer their pastor then?

Doesn't someone that tips the IRS on something like this entitled to 10% of the tax collected from these scofflaws at this church?

[jasmeel]

3. Left a message pointing out their hypocrisy.

Is their a way to instigate and investigation with the IRS?

[tk2kewl]

5. I think you are right. There should be a very unified and vocal response.

[txaslftist]

8. Right, and something that really puts a dent in them.

at a national level, hopefully.

[NVMojo]

Demand a shut down in the 2006 federal budget of Bush's Faith-based

community grants!! Obviously these idiots can't keep from shoving their politics and religion down people's throats!!!

Yank their tax exemption!! Remember, the Repukes sent campaign letters to church before the Bush fake election!!! Audit them all!!!!

[Hugin]

7. *yawn*

I was excommunicated in absentia over 300 years ago...

So, no biggie.

If it's already been done it's no threat.

[Lorien]

9. First, it's ironic given that Jesus was one of the

most radical liberals in history (one assumes the church will abandon all of His teachings as well). Second-it's tax time, baby! It's a polittical organization, not a church.

[ewagner]

10. Aside from calling the IRS

I think there is little in the way of legal or administrative action that can be taken against the church...

Publicity is another matter.....if we can get this story out enough to SHOCK sensible Christians then maybe we can have some impact.

I honestly think the majority of Christian churches will abhor this kind of action and condemn it....if they do, then it will isolate the extremeists from the rest of us and start chipping away at Dubya's support...

JMHO

[ElsewheresDaughter]

11. it's time that they start "rendering onto Caesar what is Caesars"!!!!

[Norquist Nemesis]

12. Since it's Friday news spin day

Hit the MSMs...HARD

[bullimiami]

13. they can do whatever they want but we should not have to subsidize it.

its long since past time to pull tax exemption from these monsters.

[westcor]

14. People don't fret!!

All these people believe Noah put around 6 billion (X2) animals on the Ark, women came from bones, bushs (haha) talked (well they did then at least, bushs now kinda mumble lies), fish multiplied, and a man lived in a fish for 3 days, they have a lot more problems to worry about, i love the fairy tales, but get real, Dems get out of the church b4 its too late!! Though it is insane to kick people out because of religious beliefs, these people should loose tax exemptness for sure!!

[gratuitous]

15. First, it's not "excommunication"

It's disfellowship. A technical nuance, but I think precise words are important. There was also a line in the news report that the pastor of that particular congregation may not have followed the congregational by-laws in taking his action.

Southern Baptists, a group that only recently came around to the idea that slavery is wrong, are a congregational denomination. That means there is no Southern Baptist "Pope," no higher authorities in their denominational structure who can discipline a wayward pastor. It's up to each congregation to hire its pastor, and if the congregation decides that the pastor is doing a good job, no matter how fucked up we think that pastor is, they have every right to retain him (and in cases like this, I think you'll find it's a "him" every time).

As for the larger question of whether the congregation is engaging in unlawful political activity, that's an interesting one and one that bears further investigation. While churches are allowed to advocate for "political" causes in broad terms, they are not allowed to endorse or condemn individual candidates. A church can come out with an official stance on a school tax levy or a ballot measure, but it can't endorse John Smith for County Assessor or condemn Sally Jones in her race for Mayor. Churches are allowed to espouse their values and principles, and may even go so far as to say (for example) that John Smith also believes in those values or principles or that Sally Jones does not, leaving it to individual congregants to make up their own minds as to whether to vote for John Smith or against Sally Jones.

In this instance, it appears that Pastor Dimbulb is taking a fierce stand on behalf of George W. Bush, who can no longer be a candidate for anything now that he's won re-election to the presidency. There are arguments to be made that the pastor is indulging in unlawful political activity, but there are also arguments to be made that he is not. More information is definitely needed.

But beyond that, the congregation itself will have to deal with this situation: Did the pastor overstep his authority? Did he violate the congregational by-laws? If so, will the congregation allow his actions to go ahead unimpeded, or will they hold him accountable, either by disciplining him or firing him? Or does the congregation feel that he was wholly justified in purging the membership?

While the constitution protects the right of all citizens to worship freely, it does not guarantee citizens the right to belong to any particular congregation.

[Coastie for Truth]

26. The "Pastor" is guilty of Heresy, Blasphemy, and Breaking The Commandmen

The "Pastor" is guilty of Heresy, Blasphemy, and Breaking The First, Second, and Third Commandments.

Both of my grand dads were clergy, and the Leftie Minister-Grand Dad raised me.

[gratuitous]

29. It's up to the congregation

From the sketchy reports I've read, it certainly seems that this pastor has confused the leadership of the country he happens to be living in with God Almighty, which would be an offense against the first commandment. But I find that to be a rather common failing for a LOT of self-described Christians, congregants and ministers alike. I'm always wary when I see a church with the Stars and Stripes flying outside or worse, on a pole inside.

But again, it's up to the congregation to decide whether this pastor has violated their by-laws, and what they want to do about it. I do think that the IRS should investigate further whether this particular congregation is engaging in unlawful political activity, and if it is, it should revoke its tax exempt status and allow the congregation to become the political action committee it seems to want to be, rather than a church.

[cally]

16. I think we should contact the local Southern Baptist Churches

and ask the Pastor and congregation to speak out against this. Have the church make a stand. I'm looking up local congregations now.

[GreenPartyVoter]

17. I sent it to a few people in my hubby's conservative evangelical church

Very curious to see if the respond.

[rocktivity]

18. We should all inform our churches that we will pull our financial support

If they endorse any candidate for any reason.

:headbang:
rocknation

[readmylips]

24. Don't give $ to the church, give it to your party.....

Churches are cults, why support such crap. Churches need money to succeed, cut them off. Organized religion/cults and Faith are NOT the same. Keep your Faith, dumpt the cults. Our party can do a lot more for humanity if we gave them the money.

[RevCheesehead]

33. Hey! That just ain't true in all cases.

I'd recommend supporting the faithful churches, as well as keeping broad-brush statements about religion at bay. No need for divisiveness here.

RevCheese

[SheilaT]

20. I'm simply reminded

once more of why I have no use for organized religion. They really are all cults, not matter what they say.

EVERY religion, no matter how "liberal" says in essence, "We have the truth and no one else does."

Unitarians seem to be the only exception here, but I'm under the impression that certain Unitarian churches are more dogmatic than others. Oh, and pagans don't seem to care as much about how others worship or believe, but my point still stands.

I'd eliminate all tax exemptions for all churches, regardless. They can learn how to function as tax-paying entities, as do other businesses.

[SnowGoose]

23. There's more churches than pizza places

I think the 'disfellowshipped' Democrats can find someplace else to pray (even if it's just in the closet like Jesus suggested).

If that church doesn't need Dems in the pews or Dem money in the collection plate - how you gonna stop em? And who would even want to be in a church that had been coerced into including you?

I agree that such an association is more of a 'political club' than a church, so maybe they should lose their tax exempt status.

But most of all, I agree that we need to make them OWN THIS. I'm already thinking who I'm going to send this to. I read somewhere that there was a society (somewhere & somewhen) in which the penalty for murder was to hang the corpse of the victim on his back till the rot and sepsis finally killed him too.

Everyone needs to hear about this... I want to see Bush be asked to comment on it. Over and over.

[Coastie for Truth]

25. Short of a Schism - hire some new clergy - they are out there (here)

with a link to a series of .

Participants include

--- Jim Wallis, editor of Sojourners and author of the best selling God's Politics

--- Rabbi Michael Lerner, editor, of TIKKUN and author of Healing Israel/Palestine

---Michael Nagler, founder of the Peace and Conflict Studies Program at the University of California, author of The Search for a Non-Violent Future

--- Thandeka, associate professor of culture and society, Meadville Lombard Theology School, author, Learning to be White: Money, Race and God in America

--- Riane Eisler, author of The Chalice and the Blade and The Power of Partnership

Kickoff will be a (where else?)

This is that "Old Time Religion" folks - Martin Luther King, Jr., and Father Robert F. Drinan, and Rabbi Balfour Brickner.

This is the OUR "Old Time Religion" when Faith Based Progressivism passed Abolition and ran the "Underground Railroad" and got women the right to vote, and passed Civil Rights Acts, and Marched, and Registered Voters, and ended a war.

This is the OUR "Old Time Religion" folks - let's take back our churches, temples, mosques, gudwaras, and shrines.

SEE YOU IN BERKELEY - JULY 20-24

AS THE SONG GOES - THERE WILL BE A LOT BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE THERE

[Jack Rabbit]

28. I would not call on any Democrat to leave any church

The Democrats in this case were kicked out; they didn't leave.

Unless this becomes the policy of the Southern Baptist Convention, then there is no reason to believe this anything but one extremist pastor overstepping his bounds. Of course we should decry it and take action and talk openly about removing the tax exemption from this particular church. As of now, it would be wrong to tar all Southern Baptists because of Pastor Chandler's ecclesiastical McCarthyism.

Should this become some of trend or if it is endorsed by a broader church organization, then a broader protest will become appropriate.

[Arkana]

30. I think it's fucking creepy

and it shows the lockstep mentality many churches in the South have.

[justsomegirl]

31. Giving $$ to Americans United for Sep. of Church and State

I'm planning to either donate or join Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

http://www.au.org

[Q3JR4]

32. Where am I going,

and why am I in this hand basket?

[AP]

34. Thank you!!!! Because it's going to backfire. So keep it coming.

[Vinca]

35. Send in the tax man.

From the photo I saw on another post, it wouldn't be a bad thing to challenge their tax exempt status for local property taxes, either.

[StephanieMarie]

36. They lose their tax status retroactive to when the "pastor"

told them they had to vote for * to stay a member.