African Americans for Howard Dean!

[Scott Lee]

Right from one of their own advocacy groups, here's why President Dean would be good for African-America...


http://www.africanamericansfordean.com/

Friends,
Our nation is in distress and your help is needed now! In less than 3 years of Bush's reign, we have witnessed and felt the horrible effects of the massive disaster of his failed policies.

We now find ourselves in a never-ending nightmare. Thanks to Bush, we are now mired in an unnecessary and expensive war, ruined foreign relations with our long-standing allies, record unemployment, a record-breaking federal deficit, record-breaking numbers of Americans losing their homes to foreclosure, record numbers of African American children living below the poverty line, bankrupt states, cuts in all types of aid programs and educational assistance for the most needy among us, a permanent cloud of anxiety and fear, unfair tax cuts for the wealthy, and the list of horrors just goes on and on.

Our country has been hijacked by a gang of right-wing radicals who are determined to impose their destructive agenda on us, regardless of how negatively it may affect us individually, or as a nation. It is clear that the Bush administration is more concerned about the welfare of the very wealthy and large corporations, instead of the middle-class and the poor. The upcoming 2004 presidential election is by far one of the most critically important elections in the history of this country. It is our opportunity to remove Bush and his gang, and to return the country to the path of peace, prosperity and equal rights for all. We can, and must do this. Your help is needed NOW!

_______________________________________________________________

[bigtree]

1. I can't fathom from the writings why AAFD favors Gov. Dean

over the others? What is their bottom line? Electibility? Foreign policy? Health care? How do these figure in AAFD's support for Gov. Dean over the others?

[Scott Lee]

5. Read their site - I posted the link. Good stuff.

[bigtree]

Scott Lee, I want to hear your views as well

on why President Dean would be good for African-America, as opposed to the others.

[Scott Lee]

14. That would be odd, since I'm not African American, donchathink?

Unlike Deans opponents, I don't propose to speak for people outside of my frame of experience. Are you just asking for my opinion as an "outsider" of sorts?

[bigtree]

26. 'Odd' is pushing an advocacy group and distancing yourself from

the issues they represent. Of course I want to hear your opinion. Elsewise, I have to assume that you are waving this group's support for Gov.Dean mindlessly. That doesn't lend much credibility to your posit that African American's are for Dean!

[Scott Lee]

37. I let them make their case and they do it well. What's your excuse?

[bigtree]

41. What?

What's my excuse for what?

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bigtree]

48. pretty disingenuous to push a notion you won't defend

that African American's are for Gov. Dean. Some may be. Many are not. Why do you feel that Gov. Dean is favorable over the other candidates? On what issues? Can you be specific? The posit is yours to defend. Not much on your end except to present one group who happens to support Gov. Dean. Not much of an argument to posit this and then push everyone to the link. What are your views?

I'll respond to the AAFD by e-mail.

[Scott Lee]

55. Don't kill the messenger - if you dont like it, take it up with the site!

I don't believe it's a requirement to take an impassioned position on everything one posts - it's possible to do so as merely a thread of interest. What's telling is that you seem to have a big problem with Blacks liking Howard Dean.

Can you explain this?

[bigtree]

57. you have a problem with attempting to speak for me.

'Blacks' can support whomever they want. Just pointing to a link where some 'blacks' support Gov. Dean is weak. It shows that some support him. That's all. Not much of a presentation. Not much to discern from a fraction of 'black' voters. I'm certain others have 'blacks' supporting them as well.

An important question is why your candidate (Gov. Dean) is to be favored by 'blacks' over the other candidates. Can you do so without the insults and your slant on what I like and don't like?

I actually see little for any racial group or individual to parse over the positions or character of any of the Democrats. They all seem equally favorable to any racial or ethnic group.

BTW: Last response from me. This is not worth keeping kicked.

[TLM]

107. SOme folks will look for anything to attack...

yet do not want to seem to be doing so blatantly so they'll look for some stuff to nit pick about... like the race of the person postying the link.

Personaly attacking you makes it very easy to avoid the fact that large groups of black folks are supporting Dean, despite the claims that Dean has no support from the black community.

[bigtree]

118. who makes this claim?

where?

[xultar]

42. OK Mr. Lee, I'm Black and you were speaking for me when you

posted this silly nonsense. I take personal offense to someone WHO IS NOT BLACK posting things saying that Dean would be good for African Americans.

So DON'T SPEAK FOR ME or ANY OTHER AFRICAN AMERCIAN...EVER!

I find your post INSULTING and proves my point that I've stated all along. Dean and his supporters will drive the African American VOTE away from the polls with CRAP LIKE THIS!

This has got to be the 8th time or so where someone who ISN'T BLACK felt they had the nerve to post something regarding AFRICAN AMERICANS. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!! HAVEN'T YOU ANY SHAME!!!!!@!!

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HFishbine]

47. Then, you object to this too?

http://www.democrats.us/editorial/aadl092203.shtml

[SahaleArm]

56. Why? By Regina A. Mullen - Director, AADL n/t

[HFishbine]

97. Who is the AADL?

Their web site lists no board. There is no information about membership (if there is any). There is only one name listed, Regina Mullen, who is described as the "director." The stated goal of the organization is to advance the "political agenda of the Wesley K. Clark." (http://www.aadl.us/aadl.php?id=2)

The AADL is an organization with no history of serving the African American community. It came into existance only for the purpose of supporting the Clark campaign. Furthermore, it is a front for one women's opinion -- a woman who is a staffer on the Clark campaign and is attempting to garner support for him under the pretense of an "organization" that has as it's primary purpose, not AA issues, but Clark's "political agenda."

Ms. Mullen, is the African American Outreach Cordinator for the Michigan for Clark Campaign. (You'll have to use Google's cache to see this info, it's been removed from the live web page: http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:NHFfB_Pr4NAJ:womenforclark.com/hookup.htm+director%40aadl.us&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

[SahaleArm]

106. It was an editorial not some official release...

Probably just somebody's personal website?

[HFishbine]

115. The first line of the editorial claims to speak for an entire organization

"African Americans for Democratic Leadership (AADL) urges all African Americans to support General Wesley Clark in the Democratic primary..."

http://www.democrats.us/editorial/aadl092203.shtml

[Andromeda]

78. You should visit the AAFC site then.

If some African Americans like Dean they should have the right to support him if they want to. If you are so offended then go to the African Americans for Clark, or Kucinich, or whatever, site. If there is no such website, then start one.

Dean would be good for ALL Americans, black or white and if you have a problem with Scott or anybody else posting a link to an established site that happens to support Dean then take it up with the moderators or maybe the AAFD site.

Anybody posting on this forum has a right to post articles and links of interest to all members of DU providing they are legitimate and are not right-wing propaganda sites. Just because you happen to find it insulting doesn't mean it merits the kind of reaction you have displayed.

Just because you're black doesn't mean you speak for ALL people of color.

[ariesgem]

104. I'm African American

>>>>This has got to be the 8th time or so where someone who ISN'T BLACK felt they had the nerve to post something regarding AFRICAN AMERICANS. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!!!! HAVEN'T YOU ANY SHAME!!!!!@!!

Some people that post here have a tendancy to "talk over" us or "about us" like they assume that we all tend to think and do things sheepishly. Why not ASK US DIRECTLY who we prefer as a candidate. Like the rest of you, you'll find that we all don't agree.

I happen to prefer Dean and quiet a few of my family members and friends do also. I'll support Clark if he gets the nomination.

[SuperNova7]

68. How is offering a link pushing a group?

As far as the title, well that is the name of the site.

There is also a site, Republicans for Dean, but of course that doesn’t mean “all” republicans support Dean.

I have offered the link on black sites before, and many people thanked me, and of couse, some blacks support Dean, and some blacks prefer someone else, but information is a good a thing.

By the way, I am black.

[Andromeda]

79. Welcome to DU, SuperNova7!

:hi:

[bearfartinthewoods]

85. maybe i'm just an old cynic but

unless either site can be proved to actually be started by pubbies or blacks for dean, i can't give it any more credance that any other site on the net.

i'm gonna start a site and call it martians for dean...how is that relevant?

[TLM]

109. Nope, some folks just hate it when anybody supports Dean

And when some of those supporters are black, they hate it even more because one of the current Dean bashing memes is that blacks do not support him.

Dean bashers hate it when their lies are exposed as such.

[wndycty]

30. Well if you think the site is good stuff. . .

. . .you seem very comfortable as to commenting on this issue.

[bearfartinthewoods]

84. well neither were the people in the picture, holding signs AA for dean

i din't think actually being an African American mattered to the dean campaign.

[drfemoe]

96. and so far

no one has explained to me, as a *mixed race* Dean voter, why it is objectionable to carry a sign for any other group of Dean voters?

I don't get it. Please explain to me how it is *wrong* for me to hold any sign I want to? Can I hold signs for *gays* or *straights* if I am gay or straight? Can I hold signs for Latinos if I am Black? Atheists if I am Jewish?

When did it become a PC rule that I can only carry signs that represent my specific race, gender, ethnic boundry, sexual preference, religion .. to the exclusion of any and all others?

[FrenchieCat]

2. I'm African (not originally American).....I'm black...

And Howard Dean will not be good for me or my community. A reason why? His stance on AA stinks! Another reason? He won't win.

As the wife of a Deacon at the largest African American Church in the Bay Area (Barbara Lee's district), I can tell you that our congregation are not Dean supporters by any means.

Sharpton came to our church last Thursday, and he had not one good thing to say about Dean.

Jesse Jackson SR. came to our church a few weeks ago, and had not anything to say about Dean.

As we hold bible studies in my home every tuesday (about 40 in attendance), what I will say is that Black folks are not about to fall for the OKEY DOAK......General Clark is the guy that can beat George Bush....and that's the priority in election 2004...not remaking the Democratic party.....that's rethoric and nonsense....a diversion to create a movement that's made up of a small minority of activitists....who think having 25% of the Democrats choosing your candidate makes you something that you are not.

Delussions, delussions, delussions!

OBJECTS ARE CLOSER THAN THEY APPEAR

[HFishbine]

4. Obviously

Others disagree with you.

[FrenchieCat]

7. Would that be you?

are you one?

[HFishbine]

25. Referencing the original post (n/t)

[Kahuna]

53. Others? Anybody can put up a website and call it anything..

That doesn't prove that the site was put up by a black person or that it has a lot of black visitors. :shrug: I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it could possibly have 20 regular visitors. Maybe. :shrug: Don't you know that anybody can start a blog?

[Scott Lee]

8. With all due respect, I dont think all of African America is represented

by your denomination in the SF bay area. As the site I posted shows, you clearly have opposition in this.

My suggestion is you write to them and see if you can spur a discussion. Maybe they know some things you do not.

[FrenchieCat]

11. Maybe

the bigger problem is that they don't know, or are ignoring some things that are......

[Scott Lee]

21. Are YOU speaking for all of African America now?

Goondess me....you must be very important!

[FrenchieCat]

32. Since you are not black....

exactly what are you doing??????

At least I am. This is so funny!

Read this previous thread about Dean's Afro-stance.......
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=609403#609556

[Scott Lee]

36. I let African Americans for Dean do the speaking...what are you doing?

[Myra]

60. African Americans were not well represented at the Harlem photo-op either

It was just bizarre. And it unfortunately sent the opposite
message from the one they, presumably, intended.

"What I did hear was, that Dean and Gore told the cabbie to 'take us to Harvard,' and he dropped them off in Harlem instead," Rangel said.

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/columnists/nyc-dems1212,0,2237810.story?coll=ny-nycnews-featured

[mbali]

61. No, she does not represent all of "African America"

no one does. That's why it's insulting for people to suggest that because some group of black people support Dean, that is indicative of a groundswell of support for Dean in the black community.

But her take on Dean is just as helpful in assessing the views of black Americans as any other.

[mzmolly]

19. Howard Dean is a supporter of AA. In fact Christopher Edley

*noted African American author on the subject of AA* is one of Dean's supporters. I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Edley personally.

In fact here is a list of other AA supporters in the Dean camp. I resent the implication that they/we are not educated about our choice in candidates.

http://www.blacksfordean.com/endorsements.htm

Christopher Edley, Jr. Senior Advisor to Dean Campaign, Dean of UC Berkley's Law School, Co-Founder of Harvard Civil Rights Project.

[robbedvoter]

27. Depends what you mean by AA.

When he said - with 2 black candidates in the running "I am the only candidate talking about race", I am sure there wasn't one dry eye in the house!
Things improved for sure when he refused to apologize to the young black man in Boston who told him was ofended by the C-F remarks. I know that's when he fell off my candidates chart.

[mzmolly]

51. Parsing words here...

and changing the subject.

[bearfartinthewoods]

86. what did he say to the guy in boston?

[SahaleArm]

87. Something like - "I make no apologies for reaching out to poor whites,"

Like they all wave the confederate flag or something? I think he apologized the next day after this case of foot-in-mouth disease.

[mbali]

88. Which completely ignored the young man's question and concern

He didn't ask Dean how he planned to increase the electability of Democrats or how more white people could be drawn into the party. He asked Dean, "I recently read a comment that you made where you said that you wanted to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. When I read that comment, I was extremely offended.

"Could you explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans, after making a comment of that nature?"

Dean answered this young man's question by launching into a lecture bemoaning the plight of poor white southerners:

"There are 102,000 kids in South Carolina right now with no health insurance. Most of those kids are white. The legislature cut $70 million out of the school system. Most of the kids in the public school system are white. We have had white Southern working people voting Republican for 30 years, and they've got nothing to show for it.

"They vote for a president who cut 1 percent of this country's taxpayers' taxes by $26,000, which is more than they make. And I think we need to talk to white Southern workers about how they vote, because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's the only time that we make social progress, and they need to come back to the Democratic Party."

Did Dean really think this was in any way responsive to a request that he explain how he would be sensitive to the needs and issues of African Americans? This response was so completely clueless and insensitive that it's a wonder the young man didn't go off on him. Fortunately, John Edwards stepped in and directly addressed his concern.

But Dean and his supporters should not complain that he is being unfairly picked on when questions are raised about his wispy grasp of civil rights and race in America. Unless and until he develops a deeper understanding of the issue - and stops posing as a race relations expert - his attitude will continue to be called into question.

[batman]

98. He ingnored the 'bait' aka plant from the sharpton campaign

good for him.

[mbali]

99. What proof do you have that this guy was "bait" from the Sharpton campaign

Do you believe that the only people who could possibly feel the way he did must be a Sharpton supporter?

If so, not only are you wrong, but you reveal a narrow-mindedness of which should not be the least bit proud.

[TLM]

111. Wow now that's very misleading as well...

Why edit out the part where Dean clearly said that the needs of poor working class white folks and poor working class black folks are the same in a lot of respects... education, jobs, and healthcare... and that he's going to address those by reaching out to the poor whites who have been voting against their own interests and get them to vote with blacks for their shared goals?

If you have to edit out the parts of his statements that prove your attacks are baseless... why make them in the first place?

[mbali]

117. There's nothing misleading about my post

I noted that, in response to a question about how he would be "sensitive to the needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans," Dean proceeded to talk about the importance of bringing more white people into the Democratic fold by helping them understand that their interests were consistent with the interests of African Americans.

You may think that answered the question, but I - and many others - do not. It was totally non-responsive and terribly insensitive to what the young man was trying to find out. Talking about how he's going to reach out to poor whites and how he expanded the rights of gay Vermonters is not an answer to that question. If you think it is, you have as much to learn about the issue as Howard Dean does.

Here's the entire transcript of that exchange - if you read it, you will see that Dean said absolutely nothing about how he was going to demonstrate that he is sensitive to the concerns of African Americans - other than to convince poor white Southerners to vote Democratic:

QUESTION: I recently read a comment that you made where you said that you wanted to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. When I read that comment, I was extremely offended.

Could you explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans, after making a comment of that nature?

DEAN: Sure. Martin Luther King said that it was his dream that the sons of slave holders and the sons of slaves sit down around a table and make common good.

There are 102,000 kids in South Carolina right now with no health insurance. Most of those kids are white. The legislature cut $70 million out of the school system. Most of the kids in the public school system are white. We have had white Southern working people voting Republican for 30 years, and they've got nothing to show for it.

They vote for a president who cut 1 percent of this country's taxpayers' taxes by $26,000, which is more than they make. And I think we need to talk to white Southern workers about how they vote, because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's the only time that we make social progress, and they need to come back to the Democratic Party.

COOPER: Reverend Sharpton, I just want to point out, in the last couple days, earlier last week, you have called some of Governor Dean's positions anti-black. It sounds very close to calling him racist.

SHARPTON: No, I don't think the governor is a racist. I think some of his positions would have hurt us. But I think that doesn't answer, Governor, this young man's question.

First of all, Martin Luther King said, "Come to the table of brotherhood." You can't bring a Confederate flag to the table of brotherhood.

And you can't misquote Martin Luther King like that. I come out of the King movement, I didn't just read him. He talked about us leaving racism there. And I think that Maynard Jackson said that the Confederate flag is America's swastika. If a Southern person running, if John Edwards, a Bob Graham had said that, they'd have been run out this race.

I don't think you're a bigot, but I think that is insensitive, and I think you ought to apologize to people for that.

When Bill Clinton was found to be a member of a white-only country club, he apologized. You are not a bigot, but you appear to be too arrogant to say "I'm wrong" and go on.

COOPER: Governor Dean?

DEAN: We're not going to win in this country, and even worse, Democrats, if we don't have a big tent. And I'm going to tell you right now, Reverend, you're right. I am not a bigot. And Jesse Jackson Jr. endorsed me and has stood up for what I said. And Reverend Jesse Jackson went down to South Carolina last week and went to a trailer park which was inhabited by mostly white folks making $25,000 a year. We need to reach out to those people, too, because they suffer as well.

I understand the legacy of racism in this country, and I understand the legacy of bigotry in this country. We need to bring folks together in this race, just like Martin Luther King tried to do before he was killed. He was right. And I make no apologies for reaching out to poor white people.

SHARPTON: But Confederate flags is not for white people, and that's sounds more like Stonewall Jackson than Jesse Jackson. And he...
Jesse Jackson went to South Carolina with all of us protesting the flag. The issue's not poor Southern whites. Most poor Southern whites don't wear a Confederate flag, and you ought not try to stereotype that.

COOPER: All right, let me bring Senator Edwards with his comments.

Senator Edwards, in the last couple days you have been very critical of Governor Dean on this issue. And let me try to understand, are you basically saying that the votes of those who fly the Confederate flag are too loathsome to even accept? And if so, are there any other groups whose votes you don't want?

EDWARDS: Well, let me say, first of all, unless I missed something, Governor Dean still has not said he was wrong.

Were you wrong, Howard?

Were you wrong to say that?

DEAN: No, I wasn't, John Edwards, because people who vote who fly the Confederate flag, I think they are wrong because I think the Confederate flag is a racist symbol. But I think there are lot of poor people who fly that flag because the Republicans have been dividing us by race since 1968 with their Southern race strategy.

I am tired of being divided by race in this country. I am tired of being divided by abortion, by gay rights.

I want to go down to the South and talk to people who don't make any more than anybody else up north but keep voting Republican against their own economic interests and that's what I am saying.

EDWARDS: But may I respond? May I respond? And I want to respond to this young man's questions.

EDWARDS: Because let me tell you the last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do.

That's the last thing in the world we need in the South.

I grew up in the South. I grew up with the very people that you're talking about. And what Al Sharpton just said is exactly right. The people that I grew up with, the vast majority of them, they don't drive around with Confederate flags on pickup trucks.

One of the problems that we have with young people today is people talk down to you. You know, you get all pigeon-holed. They've stereotype you.

Exactly the same thing happens with people from the South. I have seen it. I have grown up with it. I'm here to tell you it is wrong. It is condescending. And the only way that we as a party are going to win the White House back is to reach out to everybody and treat them with the dignity and respect that they're entitled to.

That's what we ought to be doing.

COOPER: Ambassador Braun, you make a comment. And then, Governor Dean, you can respond. And then we'll move on.

Ambassador Braun?

MOSELEY BRAUN: You know, when I was in the Senate I opened myself up to the venom of the right-wing conspiracy by battling Jesse Helms over the Confederate flag. And I'm sitting here in Faneiul Hall and looking at that picture of having to do with the framing of our Constitution. And if you think about it, the women are relegated to the balcony, and the blacks aren't even in the room.

We have to as Democrats begin to engage a civil conversation among ourselves how we can get past that racist strategy that the Republicans have foisted upon this country, how we can bring Southern whites and Southern blacks and northern blacks and northern whites together, how we can come together to reclaim this country -- and Latinos, and Asians, and Christians and Muslims and Jews and Protestants.

MOSELEY BRAUN: I mean, we have to be able to bring people together to find a solution. Because guess what, we are in a global economy. We are in a global competition. We have to deal with and address the rest of the world. And we can't do it as long as Americans are still fighting each other. And we need to find ways as Democrats to come together.

Yes, this is an important conversation. But it has to be done in a way that does not play into the hands of the real racists and the real right wing.

COOPER: Governor Dean, your response, and then we'll move on.

(APPLAUSE)

DEAN: I'm not going to take a back seat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry. I signed -- I am the only person here that ever signed a bill that outlawed discrimination against gays and lesbians by giving them the same amount...

What I discovered is that fear of people who opposed that bill, which is the majority of people in my state, was mostly based on ignorance.

We have to reach out to every single American. We can't write -- we don't have to embrace the Confederate flag, and I never suggested that we did. But we have to reach out to all disenfranchised people.

Robert Kennedy brought people together in Appalachia. Jesse Jackson did it. And we're going to bring people together in this country.

I understand that the Confederate flag is a loathsome symbol, just as I understood that all the anti-gay slurs that I had to put up with in Vermont after I signed that bill were loathsome symbols. If we don't reach out to every single American, we can't win.

I have had enough of campaigns based on fear. I want a campaign based on hope.

COOPER: All right, we've got to move on on this issue.

[TLM]

110. Why only quote half the line, if not to misrepresent the meaning?

"I am the only candidate talking about race to white audiences."

The fact you have to edit what Dean said in order to prop up your attack, shows us how meaningless and baseless your attack realy is.

"Things improved for sure when he refused to apologize to the young black man in Boston who told him was ofended by the C-F remarks. I know that's when he fell off my candidates chart."

Another dishonest and misleading attack. Dean would not apologize, however the response he did give was quote satisfactory to that young man.

[HFishbine]

23. "Sharpton: not one good thing to say about Dean."

If Sharpton knows what's best for the black community, why aren't you supporting him for president?

[robbedvoter]

29. I'm with Rangel: the best thing one can do for civil rights is to

get rid of W - and Clark is the man who can do that"

[Scott Lee]

35. Rangel wants a draft too. You up for that?

[robbedvoter]

100. No, and neither is Clark. Although Rangel's reasons are compelling

[beaconess]

105. So do Jackson-Lee and Cummings

both of whom have endorsed Dean.

So you up with that?

[TrueAmerican]

3. for Clark

http://www.africanamericansforclark.com/

[Scott Lee]

10. Dude - your link is already a thread.

[robbedvoter]

6. Here's Sharpton, being ehthusiastic:

"The Rev is furious at the Doc for invading his home turf Tuesday, when Dean went uptown to receive former Vice President Al Gore's endorsement at the National Black Theatre on 125th St. Sharpton didn't appreciate the coronation - or the venue.
"The day is past when black folks can be delivered," he said in a telephone interview. He called the Dean-Gore summit "drive-by campaigning in Harlem."
And he's firing back.
"Howard Dean is a conservative," Sharpton says. "He's supported three-strikes-and-you're-out sentencing. He called welfare recipients 'lazy people' with no work ethic. Now he wants to keep troops in Iraq for years. How are folks in the civil rights community supposed to support things like that?"
(A Dean spokesperson says that Dean didn't support the 3 strikes law)
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/144906p-128023c.html
****

[TLM]

112. Still waiting for a link to that Lazy people quote...

but I won't be holding my breath.

[robbedvoter]

9. And another such event:

"The New York Times ' Jodi Wilgoren reports on a chastened Dean's multiracial appeal in the South with a story full of details such as this one: "Dr. Dean has struggled to attract support from black voters, who make up half of this state's Democratic primary electorate; the 'African Americans for Dean' placard in the back of the hotel ballroom on Sunday was held by a white man." LINK"
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/08/politics/campaigns/08DEAN.html

[FrenchieCat]

13. Don't forget Dean's

AA stance that is should be Class based....like the taxi driver is going to ask you for your checkbook balance before passing you by. Or that when you are at the job interview, they will estimate what your "class" is prior to giving you a job.

Plus I don't give a sh*t about anything other than beating George Bush...and the only candidate that can do that is General Clark.

So everything else is crap!

[mzmolly]

31. Dont forget the truth about Dean's position on AA.

which can be found here.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_affirmativeaction

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/Search?query=affirmative+action&inc=10&x=16&y=7

Dean at one time wanted to add class to the AA equation because the courts made a ruling against AA in the work place. Dean was promoting a solution, so AA would not be eliminated.

It's a much more complex issue then we should care to debate here so lets not take the entire thread off topic.

[TLM]

113. MzMolly that is not correct...

Dean did not want to add Class to AA programs... Dean wanted to set up programs like AA that addressed Class.

He wanted to create some new programs, not to alter the existing ones.

[mbali]

124. That's funny

Just about every public college and university in the country already has affirmative action programs that address class in addition to race.

Certainly Dr. Dean is not claiming that this is something new that he just came up with. I know that many of his supporters think that he invented air, but Dean is way behind the curve on this one, if that's indeed what he was trying to do.

[dsc]

58. why should whites going to inner city Cleveland schools

be put in line behind students in Shaker Heights? There are many whites in Cleveland, which is one of the worst systems in our state, and Shaker, about 2/3 black is one of the best. I think that is very hard to explain. AA is going to be impossible to support in the future if we don't solve that problem.

[mbali]

62. Did you know that many affirmative action programs

give a preference to white students who attend predominantly black schools? The white students to whom you refer WOULD benefit from affirmative action based upon race. But, according to Howard Dean's way of thinking, this would not be a proper approach to affirmative action.

[dsc]

64. huh?

That makes no sense at all. First, I don't think that is even true and would like to see some citation to back that up. But secondly, I fail to see how that is any different than what Dean actually said. They sure aren't being given AA on the basis of their race but on the basis of their class in your example. Which is precisely what Dean is advocating.

BTW I worked in Inner city schools and never have heard of this kind of preference being given.

[mbali]

72. Just because you aren't aware of it, doesn't mean it's not true.

Affirmative action is more than just letting black students into college. Many universities have a wide array of Affirmative Action policies that help to ensure a diverse student body. One of these policies gives a preference to white students who attended predominantly black high schools.

The University of Michigan - the defendant in the landmark Supreme Court case - has exactly such a program. In addition to awarding extra points to minority students, it also awarded extra points to white students attending predominantly black high schools. In fact, white students could earn up to 20 additional points - the maximum number of points that were awarded to minority students - for attending minority high schools.

"While students who are underrepresented minorities can earn 20 points in this system, the same 20 points can be earned by those who are socioeconomically disadvantaged or who attend a high school that serves a predominately minority population, regardless of the student's race. http://www.umich.edu/~urel/admissions/archivedocs/comply.html

(For future reference, I always check my facts before I post, so you can assume that if I make an assertion, I can back it up.)

Interestingly, the plaintiffs didn't seem to have a problem with that policy - they raised not a peep about the policies that benefited white students, complaining only about the policy they believed gave black people an advantage over them.

You are wrong to claim that this is a preference based on class. How does awarding extra points to white students who attend predominantly black schools have anything to do with socioeconomic status of the student? The only way one could assume that is by buying into a stereotype that only poor whites attend predominantly black schools. Which, of course, assumes that all predominantly black schools are so inferior that the only reason a white student would attend such a school is because they didn't have the resources to go anywhere else.

Such negative racial stereotypes is one of the reasons that affirmative action based upon race is still necessary. And Dean's insistence on limiting Affirmative Action criteria to socieconomic considerations fails to take this into account. For someone who claims to be such an expert on race relations, this is a glaring gap of understanding about this issue.

[dsc]

73. again

how is that different from what Dean suggests? I would like an honest answer to that. Clearly these people don't go to inner city schools due to being rich. You know that and I know that. Also, this would lead to an even bigger problem. A kid going to a poor all white school would be behind a white kid going to Shaker Heights. That would be an even worse situation.

Oh and if you had read my post. I mentioned inner city schools. I used in my example two disticts both of which had a majority of black students (BTW I didn't say, and it isn't the case, that Cleveland's schools are all black). Try reading it helps. I do think, and can prove if needed, that the vast overwhelming majority of white students in Cleveland's schools are poor by any reasonable measure of that term. The majority of all of Clevelands students are poor. So many were poor that they moved to everyone being on free lunch to reduce the paperwork.

[mbali]

75. It is very different than what Dean proposes

The University of Michigan policy is not limited to white students attending "inner city schools." It applies to any white student attending a predominantly minority school. This policy, as I tried to explain to you, is not based upon class. It is based upon race.

The only way you can assume that this is what Dean is talking about when he says that Affirmative Action should be based upon class, not race is to make some rather extreme and inaccurate assumptions.

Do you believe that every single predominantly minority school is inferior? Do you believe that every predomoninantly black school is in the "inner city?" Do you believe that the only reason a white student would attend a predominantly minority school is that they cannot afford to go anywhere else? Are you unaware that countless predominantly minority schools - including many in the "inner city" - are quite exceptional? You must, since that would be the only way the University of Michigan plan could arguably be based upon socioeconomic class and, thus bear even a remote similarity to Dean's approach.

And limiting affirmative action to class considerations, as Howard Dean suggests, will do little to remedy past discrimination, increase racial diversity, or overcome racial ignorance and stereotypes that remain all too common in our society. Good intentions notwithstanding, Dean clearly fails to fully understand this issue and is just flat out wrong in his insistence that Affirmative Action should be limited to class. Fortunately, the U.S. Supreme Court, educators (including the vast majority of colleges and universities), business and civil rights leaders - all of whom have a considerably deeper knowledge about and experience with this issue thant Howard Dean - recognize this and thus have insisted that race remain a key component in Affirmative Action programs.

[dsc]

91. To the extent that they aren't inferior

then why should whites going to them get a break? That makes no sense at all. Why should a white doctor's son who lives in Shaker Heights get AA but a white kid whose mom cleans houses and lives in rural podunck not? Skaker Heights is one of our best school systems and it is majority black. If I were the maid's kid in podunk I would be pissed.

[mbali]

92. The fact that you're even asking this question

indicates that you really don't understand Affirmative Action, why it's necessary or even how it works.

Affirmative action is not just about "inferiority." It helps to ensure diversity in educational institutions. Offering a preference to white students who attend predominantly black high schools recognizes that a white doctor's son who attended a predominantly black high school brings a unique experience to the educational environment that will benefit and expand the knowledge of the other students, white and black.

As for the white maid's kid in Podunk, there are other aspects of Affirmative Action that would benefit her, including programs that are based on socioeconomic class. For example, the University of Michigan gives an extra 20 points to socioeconomically disadvantaged students - the same number of points awarded to underrepresented minorities and to white students who attend predominantly black high schools. So the white maid's kid has no reason to be pissed since she has the same opportunity as the doctor's kid to get special consideration because of her circumstances.

Interestingly, it seems that the only time some white folks get upset about Affirmative Action is if they think it gives a black person a benefit that is not available to them, yet they seem to have no problem with the far more numerous Affirmative Action programs that target their benefits to other white people. For example, in addition to the preference provided to underrepresented minorities, the University of Michigan also gives extra points to men going into the nursing profession, residents of the Upper Peninsula (a predominantly white area of Michigan) and the children of alumni. Isn't it strange that the racial preference is the only one that has been challenged in court?

[dsc]

93. so adding class as an idicator is OK then

but just not when Dean says it. Is that your position? On edit, I do have to say I fail to see a reason that white people who go to one of my state's weathiest districts, which has terrific test scores, an orchestra, has several Merit scholars every year, and spents well over twice per pupil that my states rural poor districts need a leg up just for going to a majority minority school district. That makes no sense. I have no problem at all with minority students in that district getting a leg up as long as poor whites do too, which is Dean's position.

[mbali]

94. That's not what Dean said . . .

Dean is not talking about adding class as one factor in addition to other factors, such as race. He has advocated using class instead of race.

Specifically, he said on CNN's Late Edition: "You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class, and opportunity to participate . . I think people from working class families who have not had the opportunity- the educational opportunity, regardless of whether they're white or black, ought to be given some kind of opportunity, and that may mean doing something for those groups of people, but I don't think it ought to be done by race.

If Dean believed that we should consider class in addition to race, I'd have no problem with his position. Most Affirmative Action proponents endorse such plans and, in fact, most higher education institutions already have such policies in place (and did, long before Dean made this comment). Such a concept is nothing new or innovative, even if it seems so to some Dean supporters. However, Dean has endorsed replacing race with class, and, in so doing, once again demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the complexities of racial discrimination and the purpose and rationale for well-crafted remedial measures such as race-based Affirmative Action.

[dsc]

95. He should have used the word just

as in just race. But it is clear from the context he isn't just talking class. And I still would like an answer to the rest of my post. Why should white kids going to, by what any measure, is a terrific school system get a leg up just because it happens to be majority minority school system. That is awfully hard to justify.

[mbali]

101. But he didn't use "just"

Why do so many Dean supporters feel the need to "interpret" what "Dr. Dean really meant" for the rest of us. Dean is an intelligent, articulate person. He speaks in plain English. I assume he means what he says. In fact, that's supposed to be his stock in trade - unless, of course, what he says generates any controversy - then, it turns into "Dr. Dean didn't really mean what he said."

I've answered your question already, but I will explain it again. Affirmative action is not just about providing an advantage to individual students. It ensures that the entire student body benefits from a diverse range of students of different races, backgrounds, experiences and perspectives. Allowing extra points for a white student who attends a minority high school benefits not only that particular student but the rest of the student body as well since a white student who attends a predonominantly minority school will likely offer an alternative perspective that will enrich the entire student body. It is no different than making an extra effort to attract students from a particular geographic area, or male students interested in nursing career or women planning to study engineering or students with a unique musical talent. All of this helps a college or university to develop a rich and diverse learning environment that greatly benefits all of its students.

Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine. You seem to be vehemently opposed to giving a "leg up" to a white student who attends a high quality predominantly black high school. Are you just as opposed to the geographic, male nurse, viola player, or Daddy plans to give $100,000 to the school preferences? What about the discretionary admission policy that enables virtually any dean or provost to direct that an applicant be admitted just upon his say-so?

[dsc]

108. In a word yes

with the exception of the viola player. That is a legit talent which I see as no different than giving scholarships to athletes.

[TLM]

119. He did not say Just because he wasn't talking about changing AA programs

Dean was talking about new programs.

Jesus f-ing christ why is this so hard for people to understand?

Dean supports AA, and he also supports developing programs like AA that address class disadvantages the way that existing AA programs address race disadvantages.


"As President, I would pursue policies that encourage racial diversity on campuses because I know that diversity serves important goals -- it produces benefits for all students, and for society as a whole. The Supreme Court decision clears the way for policies that advance both equity and excellence. I also support fair and effective affirmative action in employment, and in programs that aid small disadvantaged businesses, both to remedy discrimination and to build greater diversity and opportunity in all sectors of our society."

[mbali]

123. That's a nice statement

Of course, it completely contradicts his earlier comments on the subject. But that doesn't seem to matter since Dean's supporters know "what he meant to say."

[TLM]

116. Please re read what Dean said and point out where he said CHANGE!

"You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class, and opportunity to participate . . I think people from working class families who have not had the opportunity- the educational opportunity, regardless of whether they're white or black, ought to be given some kind of opportunity, and that may mean doing something for those groups of people, but I don't think it ought to be done by race.

Dean is not talking about changing AA programs... he is saying we should look at programs that work like existing AA programs based on race, but that focus on class instead of race.

The Dean bashers want to make it sound like Dean is saying we should scrap AA programs or change them to be about class instead of race. That is not Dean's position and he's said so many times. Dean fully supports AA, but feels there are a lot of disadvantaged folks who are not helped by AA programs and he wants to introduce programs based on class to help those folks too.

[mbali]

121. Silly me for assuming that "I don't think it should be done by race"

means he doesn't think it should be done by race. I should have realized that "I don't think it should be done by race" is Deanspeak for "I think we should continue using race as a criteria but I also want to introduce programs based on class."

Of course, if he had actually said that, it would be even more apparent that he doesn't know Jack squat about affirmative action since most affirmative action programs already do help socioeconomically disadvantaged applicants, so he doesn't need to "introduce" any measure to expand affirmative action to include such criteria.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[TLM]

114. Dean did not say Affirmative Action should be based upon class

He said he wants to set up programs that are like AA but focus on race.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Dean did not say we should change AA, but that we should create additional programs that address class in the same way that AA addresses race.

[mbali]

122. Please point out where Dean said he wants to "create additional programs"

that address class in the same way that Affirmative Action addresses race?

You obviously just don't know what Affirmative Action is, that it is not and never has been limited to race and that it has always included socioeconomic status as one of its criteria.

Until you learn more about this topic, you really should stop trying to translate what Dean meant to say. His language was very clear, he said nothing about "creating additional programs." Your attempts to salvage this ridiculous comment and transform it into something deep and progressive is laughable.

[robbedvoter]

12. And here's dean vs NAACP:

From the transcript of CNN's Inside Politics with Judy Woodruff, January 14, 2003:
WOODRUFF: In the state of South Carolina, where you'll be campaigning, on the state Capitol grounds flies a flag with the insignia of the Confederate flag. Should that come down?
DEAN: I don't like it, but that's a matter for the people of South Carolina to settle, not me.
WOODRUFF: So, you wouldn't urge them to change it?
DEAN: I just said, I don't like it, but it's not for somebody from out of the state to fix that problem. That's an in-state problem.
****

[FrenchieCat]

15. oh, and don't forget...

that Dean wants to try to win the general election by bi-passing the south.....

Is that white enough for you?

Girl, saw that LA times article! I am impressed Robbedvoter!
You are fast becoming my idol!

[robbedvoter]

18. Thanks! The feeling is mutual!

:-)

[drfemoe]

81. Dean is not bi-passing the South ..

Dean wants to try to win the general election by bi-passing the south.....

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002768.html
Poll: Dean Leads in Georgia
The grassroots supporters of Georgia for Dean, one of the most energetic Dean groups in the country, have built a double-digit lead in the Peach State: .. con't

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002708.html
Dean Picks Up Score of Atlanta Endorsements
ATLANTA--During a campaign swing here over the weekend, Governor Dean picked up endorsements from a score of state and local officials here, in addition to his key endorsement from Congressman Elijah Cummings, the chair of the Congressional Black Caucus.

The announcement was made Saturday while Governor Dean was at the home of former Sen. Leroy Johnson, Georgia's first African-American legislator in the modern era, and represented the campaign's largest group endorsement of African-American officials to date. The strong support given by the Atlanta community leaders also underscores how Governor Dean's campaign is connecting with Americans across the 50 states.

"For the first time, I'm hearing from a man whose talking about the issues that my constituents care about-quality health and education for our children," said State Senator Gloria Butler.

"We're the answer to the question of whether Howard Dean can campaign in the South," said State Rep. Nan Orrock of Georgia. "This is the South. We're Southerners. We're for Howard Dean."
... con't

He is also leading polls in SC. I don't know where that idea came from. But, as you can see, it simply isn't true.

[Scott Lee]

17. Hmmmm, looks like THIS NAACP director disagrees with you

JASPER HENDRICKS - Farmville, VA: Jasper is a 25-year-old graduate of Norfolk State University. He is the national youth and college voter empowerment director for the NAACP, and vice president of the Virginia Young Democrats. He got involved with Generation Dean over the summer, and introduced Governor Dean at the Sleepless Summer Tour kick-off in Falls Church, Va. Since then, he has been a GenDean leader, helping to organize and advance the GenDean tour
_______________________

Ouch!

[robbedvoter]

22. Ouch will be his when he reads this thread! Guess who held the same

position on the NAACP boycott in South Carolina?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9714-2003Nov6.html
The highly nuanced, ever-tortured debate over the Confederate flag has
laid political minefields for presidential candidates for years in this
critical early primary state. South Carolina was the last southern
state to remove the Confederate flag from its statehouse dome,
transferring the banner to a flagpole in front of the capitol in 2000.
That same year, then-presidential candidate George W. Bush sparked a
controversy by refusing to take a position in the South Carolina dome
debate, saying he felt it was a matter for state residents to decide.

[Scott Lee]

34. Oh goody, the ever tortured "confed flag" non issue.

You Dean opponents are really running out of material....can't you get anything new, or something with substance? Either or will do.

[robbedvoter]

102. Just because you & media shut everyone's mouths on it - didn't make it go

away. It kicked HD from my #2 to behind Holly Joe. It should give you pause.
Things media stopped covering didn't cease existing. Especially in the South.

[HFishbine]

28. And more -- oops, somebody's not telling the whole story.

Dean said Saturday that he opposed displaying the Confederate flag at the capitol. But he said he was not honoring the NAACP’s boycott of the state after discussing the matter with African American leaders in South Carolina.

“I think it should come down,” he said.

Dean said he decided not to honor the boycott after the head of the South Carolina’s NAACP chapter said he would not hold any of the presidential candidates to it because their presence in the state would further the cause.

“He told me he doesn’t believe presidential candidates should be held to the boycott,” Dean said. “It’s to the best advantage of his cause to get the flag off State House grounds, because we all support taking the flag down.”

http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/64897

[Andromeda]

80. Good rebuttal, HFishbine...

when you quote everything Dean says instead of cherry-picking the statements you think will bolster an unsound argument, the whole meaning becomes clear as glass.

[TLM]

120. AND? Does any other candidate say they'd force them to take it down?

I doubt it since that act would violate the constitution... but hey don't let a little think like that keep you from accusing Dean of beign a racist.

[robbedvoter]

16. Outreach worked here however:

Here is the URL for the Council of Conservative Citizens' letter to Howard Dean: http://www.cofcc.org/events.htm

And here is a taste of what you will find there. Please realize that these sentiments are NOT mine and may be offensive to some:
-------------------
"We wish to commend you for your recent statements in your campaign expressing sympathy for "white folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back." We also wish to deplore the racial demagoguery with which your remarks have been unjustly denounced by your fellow Democrats."

"we disagree with you on many other issues (including your comments that the Confederate flag is "loathsome" and "racist")"

"such issues as the deliberate destruction and demonization of our culture -- the Confederate flag and similar symbols in particular. . . need to be addressed."

"The dispossession of white Americans . . . is also a major threat"

"We would like to invite you, Gov. Dean, to attend the National Board of Directors meeting . . ."
-----------------

[Scott Lee]

20. And now for the facts....

Howard Dean never attended such a meeting. Being given an invitation does not equal support, as I'm sure you know.

Do Dean opponents ever tire of posting crapola about him? Apparently not.

[robbedvoter]

24. No one said he did. he did garner support - "outreach worked" means

exactly that.

[Scott Lee]

33. So in other words, you insinuated something totally false.

Meaning you implied that because Dean got an invitation from the Klanners in suits, that he is one of "them".

Untrue, and you know it.

[HFishbine]

38. And you're surprised? One word:

Desperation.

[Scott Lee]

39. Clearly. Now I know where they are going sans tired old rubrics

[FrenchieCat]

40. Too bad you couldn't find one

Black Dean supporter to come into the thread....

Hey where is he, anyway?

[Scott Lee]

43. Do you know all DU posters by race, Mon Frer?

What's that? You don't? Thanks.

[HFishbine]

46. Ma soeur (n/t)

[Lisa0825]

50. The African Americans I know in the Dean campaign aren't on the net much.

One is a lawyer, and she stays too busy to visit discussion boards. Though, when she mentioned liking WillPitt's writings, I tried to encourage her to come here. My sister-in-law works full time and has 4 kids and three (every other weekend) step-kids to watch over. She likes Dean, but doesn't get enough "me time" to lounge online.

Yesterday, I and about 12 others did a Dean Visibility event in Houston. We stood at the intersection of Post Oak and Westheimer (Galleria mall, and one of the busiest intersections in the city) with "Honk for Dean" signs. We had a wonderfully diverse group! African American, Fillipino, white, Hispanic, male, female, old, middle aged, young, straight, gay, wealthy, middle class, struggling.

The LARGEST group of folks BY FAR who enthusiastically honked and waved for us were African Americans. The fact that they don't post here in large numbers does not mean there are not lots of African Americans for Dean.

[ldoolin]

49. kick

nt

[ldoolin]

52. kick

nt

[Kahuna]

54. Now let's see. If you click the contact link for Clark...

you get the name of a genuine person named, "Charles King." A very credible name from the hood. If you click the contact link for Dean, you just get [email protected]. God only knows who's at the other end of that link. Could be someone name Gerald Zombrowsky...frontin.'

[TrueAmerican]

59. I did a WhoIs search for the Dean link and I got

registered to FAH Industries. I googled FAH Industries and got nothing.

Anyone have any clue what FAH Industries is?

[incapsulated]

63. Courtney Smith

Runs the site. Also did a florida for Dean site as well, from my search.

http://blog2.deanforamerica.com/archives/000975.html

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

69. Do you have any idea how racist that sounds?

I have no earthly idea what race you are but if you are white you shouldn't be posting that kind of thing. That just sounds bad.

[Kahuna]

65. LOL!

Typical. :crazy:

[shivaji]

67. As a minority person, I am supporting Dean.....

for many reasons. He has solid democratic credentials as opposed to some johnny come lately like clark. Under Dean's leadership, I am confident I will get equal treatment, which is all I want. I want no freaking preferential quotas. I have pride in myself to try to compete ON EQUAL GROUNDS with anyone.

I am for Dean because he will protect jobs like mine going to foreign countries. Clark said "let the computer programming jobs go to India, we will do something else". That shows how uninformed Clark is. I suppose having spent a lifetime in the protected environment of a military job, he has no experience in the real world of outfits which can only survive by not losing money.

I like Dean because he has not worked as a lobbyist in the military-industrial complex. Clark has made millions as a lobbyist since his forced retirement from military. Clark is nothing but a opportunist who is wearing the democratic cloak this year after being a republican all his life.

I like Dean because the scariest thing facing me and my family is the specter of spiraling medical costs, and Dean is the most qualified to tackle this problem, being a medical doctor himself and also based on what he achieved in his state as a governor. Clark has no more knowledge in medical issues than my brother who has been a career military officer.

[drfemoe]

83. Ha! Isn't that the Truth!

he has no experience in the real world of outfits which can only survive by not losing money.

In fact, the pentagon has misplaced 1-3 TRILLION DOLLARS. No worries, there, though. Taxpayers will cover the *loss*.
Yet to hear from Clark on what he thinks about the missing $$$$$.
I think DARPA. Also think Clark would not want to out DARPA since he sold them a bunch of spy equipment. :shrug:

[spooky3]

89. check out Edwards' platform too; it addresses many of the points you raise

[shivaji]

125. Edwards is my close 2nd choice behind Dean

n/t

[SuperNova7]

70. I'm black and I like Dean.

I don’t post much, but felt sorry for you getting bashed over a link.

Although, I was put off for a while when he made the confederate flag remark,
he did apologize and he did say that he thought the flag was divisive, and that is what I needed to hear from him.

I have seen that site many times before, and I think it is a good thing to offer a link.

The only part I believe you should have left out….

“Right from one of their own advocacy groups, here's why President Dean would be good for African-America..”.

…. is the above sentence, these words “their” and “they should” are not good. I don’t know any race of people who would want a person not of that race telling them what they should do.

Also, I go on a black forum site often and have seen many links for Dean, and there are many who support him and some don’t.

In addition when I went to see Dean in Atlanta, I saw tons of “black folks” there, as well as many black speakers.

As for me, all I know is when the war was going on, “none” of the democrats who are now candidates Kerry, Edwards, Clark, or Lieberman were saying a darn thing.

I would watch Crossfire, Hardball, Cnn and MSNBC news hoping someone would grow a back bone. They were all hopeless.

Then comes Dean, the more I listen, the more I respect him and appreciate him having the guts to speak out.

As far as the election and the other candidates, it does not matter what your message is if you can’t get that message out or if you are too afraid to speak up.

If it were not for Dean, I don’t think any of these candidates with that I mentioned would have a voice.

By the way, I like Kerry, Edwards and Clark.

[KeepItReal]

76. Welcome to DU SuperNova7

Glad you posted.

I echo your sentiments. I didn't know who Gov. Dean was until I heard him say "I represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party." I know it is a borrowed quote now, but it really hit home.

I was sick and tired of fake Democrats like Zel Miller and Republican-lites (those folks who signed off on or looked the other way on the Iraq war without even fighting for a real debate).

I hope Gov. Dean is the last man standing, but whomever gets the nomination will get my vote.

[drfemoe]

82. Agreed!

As for me, all I know is when the war was going on, “none” of the democrats who are now candidates Kerry, Edwards, Clark, or Lieberman were saying a darn thing.

I would watch Crossfire, Hardball, Cnn and MSNBC news hoping someone would grow a back bone. They were all hopeless.

Then comes Dean, the more I listen, the more I respect him and appreciate him having the guts to speak out.

This is exactly how I feel about Dean. The racist remarks on this thread are really offensive to me.
Dean also has the guts to move beyond bigotry in every shape and destructive form. We should all champion that ideal for the democratic party.

Welcome to DU :hi: ..

[Lisa0825]

103. Welcome to DU, SuperNova7!!!:-)

:hi:

[SuperNova7]

71. I'm black and I like Dean.

I don’t post much, but felt sorry for you getting bashed over a link.

Although, I was put off for a while when he made the confederate flag remark,
he did apologize and he did say that he thought the flag was divisive, and that is what I needed to hear from him.

I have seen that site many times before, and I think it is a good thing to offer a link.

The only part I believe you should have left out….

“Right from one of their own advocacy groups, here's why President Dean would be good for African-America..”.

…. is the above sentence, these words “their” and “they should” are not good. I don’t know any race of people who would want a person not of that race telling them what they should do.

Also, I go on a black forum site often and have seen many links for Dean, and there are many who support him and some don’t.

In addition when I went to see Dean in Atlanta, I saw tons of “black folks” there, as well as many black speakers.

As for me, all I know is when the war was going on, “none” of the democrats, Kerry, Edwards, Clark, or Lieberman were saying a darn thing.

I would watch Crossfire, Hardball, Cnn and MSNBC news hoping someone would grow a spine. They were all hopeless.

Then comes Dean, the more I listen, the more I respect him and appreciate him having the guts to speak out.

As far as the election and the other candidates, it does not matter what your message is if you can’t get that message out or if you are too afraid to speak up.

If it were not for Dean, I don’t think any of the four candidates I mentioned would have a voice.

By the way, I do like Clark, Edwards and Kerry also.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

77. welcome to DU!!!

:hi:

[White Mountain]

90. Blacks and Dean

What's the deal? Dean is delightsome, IMO.