So how did Vilsack become public enemy #1 on DU?

[ShaneGR]

He seems like a stand-up guy to me. Everytime I saw him interviewed he held his own, though a bit dryly. Is he hated because he's not from a really liberal area?

[JohnKleeb]

1. hes up against Dean

is my conclusion. I haven't even heard the guy talk but I don't have a problem with him from what I read, I have no horse in the DNC race.

[Cha]

7. I don't even want "Dean" to be the

head of the DNC.

But I am wondering why Vilsack couldn't carry Iowa for Kerry?

AND as Governor of Iowa.. when will he have time to devote to the DNC?

[JohnKleeb]

9. I dont know why he couldn't either

but its not like Iowa was a diaster, Kerry lost there by less than a percent. Wouldn't he resign his seat? I have no pick for the DNC, but I don't like Vilsack getting hell because he's not Dean, you're not doing htis I know but some are and its frankly frustrating.

[janx]

13. I'd be overjoyed to see Vilsack as DNC chair. n/t

[JohnKleeb]

15. good on you, I dont have a horse in the race because I dont care

but I am seeing him trashed a lot by people who want Dean to be it, they all aren't original Dean supporters of course.

[unfrigginreal]

30. Really? The guy couldn't even deliver Iowa, blue since '84

I respect your judgement Janx so could you make a few points for me on why you think he'd be a good choice? He seems like the status quo choice to me.

A note to the Dean haters in the thread...ROFLMAO! Is there ANYTHING that you won't blame on Dean or his supporters? As a Dean supporter, am I allowed to have an opinion on party doings without Dean's name coming into the picture? Or do you form all of your opinions based on what's best for Kerry or Vilsack or whoever?

[janx]

51. Let them do what they will do. DFA is the future for the sane

people left in the United States.

;-)

[Cha]

14. All the Dean supporters I know..DO NOT

want him to be the head of the dnc, either.

Dean would do much more for our Country as he's continuing to do in DFA.

And maybe Iowa wasn't a "disaster" but it was still in the RED column ..where it wasn't four years ago.

[JohnKleeb]

16. of course

I don't have a pick, I just don't see why people are going after Vilsack for no reason, its because I believe the party leadership is backing him. I think Dean should stay with DFA too, it was nice actually to have a somewhat competive house race here in the 10th district of Va.

[madfloridian]

60. I agree, zidzi. I agree.

:hi:

[Telly Savalas]

34. Indeed

In 2000 Gore won by only 0.32 percentage points, whereas in 2004 Kerry lost by only -0.77 points. It wasn't that big a difference. Furthermore in 2004, Iowa saw around a 15% increase in Democratic presidential votes, versus nationwide where the number was closer to 12%. So the GOTV efforts in 2004 were an improvement over those in 2000 and superior to many other places in the nation. I'm not really of the opinion that the governor is that big a factor in any of these numbers, though. If someone wants to dis Vilsack for being a shitty governor or representing business-as-usual, I wouldn't argue with them 'cause I really don't know that much about the guy. This "failure to deliver Iowa" argument is pretty specious though.

As a Dean supporter, I really question whether or not the DNC chair is really the optimal place for him. For example: who has more power in the Asshole Party: Ed Gillespie or Karl Rove? Does Terry McAuliffe alone really wield that much influence, or is it his cronies and connections, rather than his position, that give him control in the party?

[JohnKleeb]

37. Kerry actually got more in Iowa than Gore did

It seems to me, and it seems like the Iowans like him.

[Telly Savalas]

55. That's what I'm sayin'

Kerry got 15% more votes in Iowa than did Gore. Whereas nationwide Kerry got about 12% more votes than Gore.

[madfloridian]

58. John, could you show me who said that about Vilsack?

I must have missed it.

[willysnout]

2. Some Dean Backers ...

... want to be outside the tent pissing in, rather than inside the tent pissing out.

[janx]

63. Welcome to DU.

What the hell are you talking about?

Please elaborate.

[willysnout]

66. It's Cannibalism

Some (certainly not all) Dean backers can't stand the idea of compromise, of settling on someone acceptable to more than just themselves and then joining forces and doing battle together, i.e., standing inside the tent and pissing out. Instead, if they don't get what they want they're content to rip the other guy apart, i.e., stand on the outside of the tent pissing in.

[janx]

68. REALLY?

I don't know where you are getting this, but it is totally false and partisan.

I keep hearing this "some, not all" bullshit about backers of any candidate--and that is dishonest SHIT.

What you really mean to say is that you do not back the same candidate as some others, and that's OK, but it is NOT OK, as a matter of fact it is totally dishonest, to say that "SOME" people do this, or that, or the other thing.

Grow up.

The Democratic party needs to evolve. The parties in the United States have been altered by the usurpation of the Republican party by the religious right. Change is inevitable. Dean addresses this.

I don't think that anything is wrong with that.

Edit: Welcome to the Democratic Underground!

[Eurobabe]

89. bullshit. i am a clark supporter and i would not want vilsack

get me the good doctor.

eom

[Blue Gardener]

3. Good Question

He's been a very good Governor for Iowa, and I think we should give credit where credit is due.

[JohnKleeb]

6. Most of what Ive heard from actual Iowans has been positive

Thanks for the ancedotal evidence, I dont know much about him but I'll take the word of someone who knows him.

[vikegirl]

17. Yes.

As a former Iowan, Vilsack is a breath of fresh air compared to what seemed like forever-term Branstad.

[Blue Gardener]

19. No Kidding

I was so glad when we finally got rid of brain-dead Branstad. Couldn't stand that guy.

[vikegirl]

73. Hi Blue....

I know what you mean. I grew up in Iowa, and unfortunately Branstad is the only governor I ever knew all throughout childhood. And it pains me to see how people here are anointing Vilsack as “loser” and “boring” and “insider” and “ party hack” and what not.....He didn’t win Iowa for Kerry? Excuse me, shouldn't have KERRY have won Iowa for Kerry?

Eh, what do I know.....I’m in Colorado now and have encountered an even bigger boob than Branstad, if imaginable......Ladies and Gents, meet Bill Owens!

[JohnKleeb]

21. thanks guys

I'll give you my word as a Virginian, Mark Warner may make a fine nominee, he's been a breath of fresh air too.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. He isn't Dean...you know..the guy on the cross

[Cha]

8. That's Fucking george

bush!

[Kahuna]

28. Now, cut that out!

:P

[madfloridian]

57. That was not very nice.

You really surprised me with that.

[greenohio]

109. Now that is funny.

[Zomby Woof]

111. HAHAHA!!!!!!

:bounce:

Truly. The fucking zealotry of the Deanies is grating beyond the pale.

[Walt Starr]

5. He couldn't even deliver Iowa for Kerry, so he's a loser

Plain and simple.

[willysnout]

11. That's The Best Argument

... but do people really need to be cannibals? By the way, Dean didn't exactly sweep anything. Winning a primary counts only in horseshoes.

[JohnKleeb]

12. no they don't have to be cannibals

well if you're interested in building a party.

[janx]

22. What does Dean have to do with this?

I'm mystified.

[willysnout]

24. It's Dean v Vilsak For The Job

[janx]

36. That's just media gossip.

Dean hasn't said anything about wanting the job. He has DFA to take care of.

[Walt Starr]

25. Hey, if you want to lose, put a loser in charge

Pretty simple if you ask me.

Shit, the Illinois GOP wanted to lose a Senate seat, so they even went out of state to bring a known loser in.

[ShaneGR]

75. Slight problem with your argument......

Under your definition, Dean is a loser. Dean lost every state in the primaries by wide margins except his home state. Dean spoke out on Kerry's behalf during the campaign, but Kerry still lose.

So Dean is a loser.

[janx]

10. Is he?

I haven't seen much about that anywhere on DU.

[Blue Gardener]

20. Just keep looking

I don't expect it to stop anytime soon.

[CityDem]

18. He had the same honeymoon period as Harry Reid

[DoveTurnedHawk]

23. He Couldn't Carry Iowa for Us, He's Boring and He Has an Ulterior Motive

Specifically, keeping Iowa's "first in the nation" status, which I think we'd be well-advised to dump.

He's also Kerry's man, and while I think Kerry ran a good race, I don't want to see Kerry run in '08. (I am just philosophically opposed to runners-up trying again. You get one shot.) Since Vilsack as DNC chair might encourage Kerry, my preference would be to go elsewhere.

Oh, and he's also an insider. I think we need fresh blood and viewpoints, after this most recent loss.

DTH

[Kahuna]

26. Riiiight, DTH. Vilsack isn't interested in what's good for Dems...

Since he can't be the king, he wants to be the king maker. :puke: And if he gets to chair the DNC, our goose is cooked because he will maintain the status quo. He won't look to see how we can position ourselves for '06 and '08. Screw him.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

29. Why the Vitriol, K?

I'm just expressing my opinion.

I'm sure Vilsack would do his best. I just don't like the Iowa caucuses, and I think we need fresh blood and perspective.

DTH

[Kahuna]

41. Why? I don't think I left much to the imagination. I have no use..

or respect for good ol' boys like Vilsack. He's a party hack. Period. He showed during the primaries when he favored Dean and Kerry, that his interest was in rewarding who he thought should be rewarded. When we wanted Wes Clark to enter the race, he was very discouraging and unwelcoming and let it be known. Why? Because his state was holding the first caucus, and he had it like that. You think he's a nice guy. Maybe he is. But that doesn't make him the leader we need in a time of crisis. We need someone who can be impartial. I don't believe he can be. So screw him.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. OH! I Totally Misunderstood. Sorry.

I thought you were being sarcastic towards me. I didn't get that you meant everything you said. Sorry man.

:toast:

DTH

[Kahuna]

44. First of all, DTH....

You're supposed to know by now that I'm not a man. :D

Not by a long shot. :pals:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

47. LOL!

How the hell did I forget? Man (woman), I have been away for too long! :D

:loveya:

DTH

[janx]

32. But if we organize ourselves, do we really need the DNC,

let alone the DLC? If they are not doing the job, why can't we do it ourselves through other organizations that are ready, funded, and willing?

[ElectroPrincess]

38. Excuse my bluntness but in today's world of politics ...

Yes, we must reclaim the Democratic party. However, that requires the rest of us who know the score to sit back while the DLC figuratively guts itself, drops down on the floor and bleeds to death.

Then, and only then, will we hear a deafening popping sound that will denote the sane moderate Democrats unanimously pulling their heads out of their butts.

When the forgoing events occur - we'll (those who are sickened by the immoral republican majority) get our beautiful Democratic Party back.

No, we need a "scrapper" in charge. I have no respect for abusive power. Most of us here feel the same. It seems that the DLC is the perfect "abused wives" who only exclaim when bested, "Thank you Sir, may I have another." Nope, I can't relate to that insanity.

[janx]

39. Some of us are not content to sit and wait.

;-)

[Kahuna]

40. That's been my point all along. In order to usurp their control..

over the primary process, we need to do an end run and deprive them of as much control as I can.

[janx]

52. But we can't do that overnight.

That's why DFA and the organizations it is partnering with are so important.

[Zhade]

108. Well, don't know about the DNC, but we SURE don't need the DLC.

NT!

[janx]

27. The Iowa caucuses are a real mess.

Complete chaos. I like Iowa a lot; I've studied and lived there, and I also have extended family from Iowa who are very proud of the Democratic process there.

But I have to tell ya--what I saw on CSPAN really made me cringe.

[Skidmore]

98. Still in Iowa, and I can't be any prouder of the caucus

system. It's open, anyone can speak, and we all leave friends.

[arcos]

61. that's the best argument against him....the primary process must change nt

[Kindigger]

106. Sitting here eight miles from Vilsack's hometown.....

I agree with the "keeping Iowa first in the nation" remark. I don't pay much attention to what the Governor does as much as what my Representatives do, but here in southeast Iowa I have never heard anything but disdain for Vilsack, and what he's done TO Iowa, and that he's the worst thing that ever happened to us. My personal hero is Tom Harkin. If he weren't in the Senate working for the whole country, I'd love to have him as our Governor. :loveya:

I noticed someone else say "farmers like him" or something to that effect, which might have something to do with the way the eastern third of the State feels about him. We are urban, union, and have suffered most of the State's job losses. Actually, we should be considered the Western edge of democratic Illinois, separated only by a big, muddy river. I'd have to look into his record, but perhaps he's sucked up to farmers, to the detriment of industry?

I'm slightly offended by the "red" Iowa remarks. I sit in a small town who's eastern border is the county line. On the other side of that line is my home county, which gave John Kerry the most votes in the State, 60-40%. I was on the other side of the line working on Vilsack's home county. Strange...I do think his hometown is "dark pink approaching red".

I also know that this State was lost due to plain old incompetence. Some of the phone calls I made were so frustrating. Nobody could decide how many, and what forms of ID were needed to register new voters,and people who were denied provisional ballots.

If Nader hadn't taken 1% we would be blue. :mad:

Just a gut feeling, but personally, I think Vilsack is a suck up who is more interested in self advancement, than the State of Iowa...just an impression I got after watching him, and his wifey at several rallies.:puke:

[kvining]

31. I want Dean

We need Dean in this job. We need a fighter, and we need his organizational skills. Party Chairman is the job he was born for, not president. The faster we get him in there, the better off we will be.

[greenohio]

110. dean can run the party the same way he ran his campaign

right into the ground.

[dogman]

33. How did he become the #1 pick?

Might be the same answer.

[sendero]

35. Because we are tired...

... of the second-best man for the job winning out every damn time?

[Julien Sorel]

48. If they are second best, why do they keep winning?

[sendero]

53. Because people are timid...

... when they need to stop being so. I'd rather reach for the brass ring and fall hard (i.e. nominate a Dean or a Clark or SOMEBODY that isn't establishment hidebound milktoast) than to keep letting the myopinairies run the show and keep missing the finish line by one damn point.

Ok, I realize that is not particularly coherent. I don't care enough to rewrite it, either you get it or you don't :) Bottom line, no guts no glory, no balls no baby, and the Dem party is getting no glory and no babies and it's time to turn the freaking page.

Oh, and by the way, they are only winning within the party, not without where it counts.

[Julien Sorel]

59. So the same candidates who are rejected by the party

would be embraced by the public? Sorry, I have a hard time buying that. It sounds like grass is greener talk. Actually, the vast majority of the criticism here is grass is greener talk.

[sendero]

62. You have...

... a lot more faith in "the party" than I do at this point. good luck with that.

[Julien Sorel]

69. What does "faith" have to do with it?

If these candidates can't sway the party, why should I, or anyone, believe they could sway the public at large? It's your position that revolves around faith -- the faith that people whio failed in the primaries would have done better in the general election.

[sendero]

74. Apparently..

.... you have never worked at a company where a myopic management keeps making bad decisions that the rank and file knows are bad, and turn out to fail.

You seem to have the idea (quite mistaken I believe) that the "people" are making these (like who is going to head the DNC) decisions.

You are wrong on both counts.

[Julien Sorel]

76. LOL

I just quit a job with such a company, bub. I was part of the "myopic management;" I suspect I have a lot more insight into such situations than you.


Other than that, it's the usual Deanite/Angry People conspiracy theory: The people would vote the way I think they should vote, but they are too duped/stupid/controlled by the media/whatever the excuse is this week, to see the light.

The beauty of adopting such an outlook from your standpoint, is that such claims can never be proved or disproved, so you get to believe whatever makes you feel good to believe, and as soon as it's challenged (the primary results, for example), hey, the voters were duped. My candidate is still the best. And even though there was this vast conspiracy that brought him down in the primaries, in the general election, now, there it would be different, and he'd win.

[WilliamPitt]

77. "We"? You got a mouse in your pocket?

[Cheswick2.0]

43. He is an insider... a party hack who lacks convictions

and is all about winning but is clueless on how to do so.

[ShaneGR]

71. Care to back that up with some facts?

Seriously, a link to a quote, or anything elese?

[Cheswick2.0]

100. link?

You want a link to my opinion? You want me to prove common knowledge? ROLF

[zulchzulu]

45. He's one of those meat-eating, Church gwoin' Moderates

A lot of people for a certain candidate think that Vilsack (Iowa gov.) is somehow the reason for Kerry kicking a certain candidate's ass when that certain candidate was leading in the "polls" weeks before.

For some, Iowa is also Public Enemy #1. Even though they have never been there...yunno...ya read shit on the web and dang if it don't affect yer judgement.

The heck with Dean...or Vilsack.

We need a reverse racist opportunist like Donna Brazille to bring the Democratic Party its next big series of defeats.

/sarcasm

[Kahuna]

50. Again. It has nothing to do with whether Iowa is a nice place to visit...

I can't speak for everyone, but for me it has to do with their track record. I also believe that other states with a more diverse population that is more representative of the party as a whole should have a crack at going first. I don't think it's right or fair for IA and NH to always go first.

[zulchzulu]

67. Let's work on that

I'm not necessarily a fan of having Iowa or New Hampshire first in line in the primaries...I'm all for reform on that and all the other voter issues we all need to work on.

I'm against Super Tuesdays too. How can a populist ever campaign in almost a dozen states with expensive media markets and great distances?

The primaries almost need to be like band tours. You start off in the East or whatever and then blanket the country in regions.

[NYCGirl]

46. No beef with Vilsack. He seems like a nice, safe, solid choice. (eom)

NT

[Cherie59]

49. I am from Iowa

Govenor Vilsack is a good man.
I went to a Kerry/Edwards rally
in DesMoines in Oct.and Vilsack gave an
awesome speech! He was so fired up
it was great.

[AntiCoup2K4]

92. So if he's a good governor, don't you want to keep him?

Believe me, I'm probably about to be stuck with a neocon shitbag Bush clone for the next 4 years, so take it from me, if you like your governor, keep him.

But for the chair of the Democratic party, we need some backbone and some direction other than "whatever the Republicans are doing, we'll just look nicer doing it."

Keep your governor. We need Dean at the DNC.

[AmerDem]

54. during the primaries he often talked bad of Clark

considering I was (still am) a Clark supporter I wanted to jump thru the tv screen after that Vilsack O' Shit. He comes across as snobby asshole! I get the vibe of a repuke from that guy.

[madfloridian]

56. Vilsack is a safe choice. Is the hatred toward us here a little much now?

I have not seen anyone say they hate Vilsack. I don't really even care who is DNC chair.

The hatred here is being fanned by a few. This is an out of control thread in a lot of ways.

Vilsack is a good non-threatening choice. I think so many people are ready for change that they are discouraged when things look like they will be the same.

I am going to continue to post about Howard Dean and DFA. I think he speaks with courage and conviction...and many of our Democratic leaders do not do that.

My husband and I will work with DFA and its partnered groups, and we will donate to them. If the DNC moves away from the Southern preacher be like them mode, we will again be regular monthly donors.

To the person who above called it "pissing" in from the outside....I am still a member of the party with the name Democrat. I just work with another wing of it now.

The insults on this thread are the wave of the future of our country. That is very sad.

If someone does not like for me or others to post about Dean, please contact the admins of the forum.

[fujiyama]

94. Please continue

to keep posting about Dean and DFA. I appreciate them a lot.

I also think he would make a fine DNC chair. He's got some passion and I think he handled himself well during the campaign on TV shows as a surrogate for Kerry.

My real hope is that over time the DFA can weaken the DLC's influence to the point where it no longer is the "leadership" council.

[robcon]

64. Since when is the DNC chair even moderately important?

I can't recall any DNC chair ever making as difference in any election. The duties of the chair are to raise money, and be presentable and cogent on the Sunday talk shows and the cable news stations.

No rocket scientists need apply. Howard Dean would be a total mismatch for the job.

[ohioan]

93. Ron Brown made a HELL of a difference!

But I agree with you about Howard Dean - I can't imagine that he would even want this thankless job.

[goobergunch]

65. Two words: Iowa Caucuses.

I'm not a particular fan of them (they're nonrepresentative and they don't even have a %@&!$ secret ballot), and Vilsack can be expected to do everything in his power to retain their privileged position.

[janx]

70. That state has the best educational record in the country--

but you're right, and Dean was right. The caucuses suck.

[Blue Gardener]

87. Have you ever attended a caucus?

n/t

[janx]

91. Yes. n/t

[WilliamPitt]

78. So let me get this straight...

You don't like him because of the Caucuses...?

Sorry, but that makes zero sense.

[ShaneGR]

79. You got that right

In this entire thread, I haven't seen ONE person use anything of substance against Vilsack. There is NOTHING concerning issues.

[unfrigginreal]

80. There's also no evidence that he's become "public enemy #1"

Your imagination is running away with you. People have expressed concern over his ability to deliver and his penchant for keeping Iowa first in the primaries. That may not be enough to lose your support but they are legitimate gripes/concerns for some to not support him.

[goobergunch]

84. Actually, it does.

Vilsack is the governor of Iowa. He's going to fight to preserve the Iowa Caucuses and (by extension) the current presidential nominee process. There have been some murmurings at the DNC about altering the current presidential nominee process, and Vilsack's selection as DNC head will likely squelch said murmurings, leaving us with the current, deeply flawed process.

See also: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/14/11449/089

[WilliamPitt]

85. So let me make a leap here

and guess that chopping down Vilsack has something to do with your candidate not making it through Ohio intact during these last primaries.

Yep. That's a good reason. Or something.

[unfrigginreal]

97. So, I guess your only reason for supporting Vilsack

has something to do with your candidate getting the nod in 2008? What a stupid and tiresome argument.

[Forkboy]

99. Jesus Will

The same lame ass argument still seems to amuse you.

[goobergunch]

102. Er....no.

I believe in something called delegate selection reform. Even if Dean had won Iowa and the nomination, that wouldn't have removed the fundamental problem.

I live in the state with the 6th largest population in the country. We don't vote until April, which means that we have no say in the selection of the Democratic nominee. I don't think that's right, do you?

And out of curiousity, who is your father supporting for the DNC nod?

[Cheswick2.0]

101. it makes perfect sense

Vilsack used his political capital to help Kerry and stop Dean.
No matter how many times you deny it, it happened. Now look how well that turned out.
We lost the Presidency and we lost more ground in congress and the senate. We did pick up some state senates... most of those candidates were supported by DFA BTW.

The smartest thing the democratic party could do is get rid of the caucus system and make some other state the first primary. Iowa almost never picks the winner. This year is no exception.

[greenohio]

105. I see now...

you're a Dean lacky. You want to repeat his primary performance for the whole party.

You deaniacs do Dean no favors.

[DrGonzoLives]

72. Ahhhhhhh, I missed the vitriol of the campaign

I see the old Dean supporter haters are back in force. Lovely.

[w4rma]

81. Make Dean vice-chair. Then everyone is happy. (nt)

[goodhue]

82. He is a place holder for the status quo.

DNC chair needs to be a change agent not an entrenched apologist.

[robcon]

83. No one seems to give any justification

over the exasperated hand-wringing over a very unimportant job for the Democratic Party. We need great politicians, not great administrators. And Vilsack will probably do fine in the chairman's job.

[Kahuna]

90. "Fine?" Well isn't that just peachy keen?

:silly: We need a little better than "fine" right now. In case you haven't noticed, we're in crisis mode.

[ibegurpard]

86. Hyperbole, much?

I have to laugh at this kind of stuff from the "moderates"... it's just as out there as any of the stuff you accuse the selfish, short-sighted, wacky leftist fringe of.
The people who don't want him want someone who they think is going to be a "fighter" and who will excite people to get involved in the party. Vilsack has done nothing on a national level to indicate that he will fit the bill in that regard. So they're angry. Probably as angry as you'd be if the Party put someone like say, oh, Howard Dean in charge.

[toddaa]

88. Picking on the Iowa Caucuses

Why do you people keep pointing to us as the reason the eventual Democratic nominee is a dud? This was the first year in a long while that Iowa actually picked the eventual nominee. The last time we succeeded in picking the right guy was Jimmy Carter. Serves you right for listening to us.

As a governor Vilsack is a breath of fresh air, compared to Terry Braindead. He's had to struggle with a Republican legislature and shown to have a quite a bit of backbone. He has respect among farmers, which is something that has been woefully lacking in recent Democratic candidates. Look at the map of red states next time you think ag is a boring issue. He's not a sexy choice like Dean, but I don't think he'll necessarily do a bad job. He'll certainly be a bit more clued in on the opposition's tactics than McAuliffe.

My biggest beef with Vilsack is his cozy relationship with biotech and his overly enthusiastic support for the FTAA.

[formernaderite]

95. He's not, he's just another Dudley candidate, who doesn't...

...really speak for the democratic base like Dean does. Most of us are angry enough about the direction this country is taking, to want a fire and brimstone speaker like Dean. Vilsak is nice and quiet...nothing wrong there. It's just not the time for that, it would feel too much like we're acquiescing.

[unfrigginreal]

96. Shorter formernaderite

It's time for an ass-kicker not an ass-kisser.

[Freddie Stubbs]

103. He is an evil DLCer

But then again, so was Bill Clinton.

[PopSixSquish]

104. Because He's Tom Vilsack and Not Somebody Else

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

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