Kucinich Deal with Edwards. Is Kucinich mimicking Dean w Deals?

[Raya]

Howard Dean has made a reputation in this campaign as the master of deal-making. I thought the Kucinich people were critical of it. Now my hero Dennis Kucinich seems to have gone down this road. MSNBC is reporting that Kucinich has done a Deal with the Edwards campaign that may give Edwards some extra points that could otherwise go to Kerry.

I know many of my Imagine America friend who help fund the Kucinich campaign are going to be very disappointed. Edwards record of fighting for progressive causes does not compare in any way to John Kerry’s.

I guess Kerry keeps paying a price for his “No Deals” “The Real Deal” approach. But I salute him for it. I am very familiar with Kerry’s senate record, and I can see why is not the easiest guy to approach with a deal. Few senators have maintained a record so widely regarded as above reproach – free of special-interest lobby deal or pork-barrel legislation. John Kerry’s legendary indifference to special interest initiatives has been widely slammed as arrogance, aloofness and even neglect of his “constituents.”

I thought decision in the caucus was supposed to be by the voters themselves, not pre-planned by campaign managers.

Kerry may loose a few point here, but I honor him for maintaining his intergrity, and staying above the typical politics-as-usual deal making.

[loftycity]

1. Don't Believe MSNBC

Microsoft,General Electric...can they tell the right story. Nope..

[Jackson Smith]

126. lol ok

Who can I believe then?

[redqueen]

2. Not "Deal making", strategic collaboration

Both of these camps know their numbers will be low in some places, higher in others.

By working together, they can coalesce their support in key places, so that both of them come out ahead of where they might have if they had not worked together.

Also, if I'm not mistaken Kucinich's is one of the few (the only?) campaign NOT in debt, and also not able to offer to pay off debts, so you can wipe that Dean/Braun stain right off the face of this situation. :)

[Sensitivity]

6. Sorry, but Edwards is Ahead of Dean in One Poll

This deal could give Edwards the win. I think Edwards got a free
ride while others fought it out. It was his campaig strategy, just
like this deal is a campaign strategy.

[Blue_Roses]

63. It seems the keyword here is

Fought. That's all they have done is fought amongst one another and people are tired of it. We need someone who can compete with Bush on a positive plain, not with all the bickering.

And as far as Edwards getting a "free ride" I just don't see it. He's been digging his heels in and working to get his message out just like all the rest, only he hasn't been heard. It's about time he get the same chance to be heard as the others. He is definitely a viable candidate and has alot to offer the Democratic party.

Now's not the time for sour grapes...this thing has just begun!

[Raya]

22. Did you hear any reports re the negotiations with the 2 big Unions

The Dean folks out-foxed Gephart masterfully. Lots of discussion about that at the time including Dean "adjusting" his views on "right-to-work" laws etc.

[redqueen]

25. These candidates are not changing their views.

They are simply taking a look at their numbers in the different precincts, and then strategically offering to help each other in certain areas where it can be effective.

Completely different situation.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

40. Braun was against the war - unlike Edwards.

The sheerest hypocrisy on Dennis's part. Sad to see politics outweighing ethics.

[diamondsoul]

3. As a Kucinich supporter,

I'm absolutely THRILLED.

This is a one day only arrangement to help boost each of their numbers in Iowa and potentially gain some delegates. It IS decided by the voters. Neither campaign is using any strong-arming to force supporters to join other groups, it's simply a recommendation to them in counties where one or the other is short on support.

The point being both of them have some counties where they may not have the showing they would like, and it's hoped they'll balance each other out with Kucinich having good numbers where Edwards doesn't and vice cersa. Possibly they've compared declared supporters in some counties and decided this is a wise move for both of them, I don't know, but I'm glad to see two Dems working together to stay in the running.

[Sensitivity]

10. So, Why didn't you do a deal with Dean

[diamondsoul]

27. Well number 1, I'm not in Iowa,

number 2, it wasn't up to me, and number 3, I don't personally feel I can trust Howard Dean.

Kucinich and Dean have not been on good terms with each other from the outset. I'm sorry about that, but that's the truth of it. On the other hand he and Edwards have gotten along well throughout the campaign and remained cordial if not outright friendly. Kucinich stated on Th Daily show he got along best with Edwards, and apparently it goes both ways.

This isn't about who is most popular, it's about a strategic effort to remain in the running on the part of two fine men.

[Nadienne]

4. Alright, folks, I'm an Iowan, supposedly "in the know"

It was recommended to me that if I couldn't get Kucinich to be viable in my precinct, I could support Edwards because of his positive campaign strategies. And it's possible that the reverse might happen, that Edwards' group might support Kucinich, if they don't have a chance in my precinct and Kucinich does have a chance.

I don't know anything about secret deals or anything like that. Not only that, the decision is up to the caucus goers. I know of many who have a second favorite, and it's not Edwards. As far as I can tell, this whole "secret deal" thing is getting blown out of proportion.

(edited for clarification)

[rucky]

15. can you switch groups before the first count?

so if Edwards has a comfortable 15%, could he lend his spare bodies to the Kucinich camp & take them both over the threshold?

[redqueen]

19. I don't think they'd consider any estimate valid

They'll most likely wait until after the first round to see how things are shaping up, then decide on what to do.

[Nadienne]

28. The first count doesn't matter much.

The final, second count is what matters.

As far as strategies and thresholds go, well, I can only guess that if Edwards is not viable in my precinct, they might be persuaded to join my Kucinich group. If neither of us are viable and Edwards is closer to getting viable, I'll add my numbers to theirs before the second count. If we're both viable, well, you can be sure that I'll stay with Kucinich and Edwards' supporters will stay with Edwards.

I can't speak for the rest of Kucinich's supporters. Nor can I speak for Edwards' supporters.

But I doubt Edwards will need my help. And I hope Kucinich doesn't need theirs. :-)

[iowapeacechief]

26. Thanks, Nadienne...

I'm with you.

[Nadienne]

31. You're welcome

And I kinda wish everyone would just stop and think for a moment. No one is telling anyone what to do. No candidate can promise that their candidate will support another candidate just on say so. It's unrealistic.

[Jerseycoa]

46. It's somewhat surprising to me

How many DUers are surprised today at ordinary old horsetrading in caucusing.

Seems we always have to find a conspiracy :tinfoilhat: when it's just politics.

I think these are two decent men who respect each other and see the chance to maximize their positions. As you point out, Nadienne, the decision is up to the voter when push comes to shove.

[Sensitivity]

5. I am really surprised. I though Kucunich was above that type of thing.

[AP]

44. Kucinich probably isn't above making sure most liberal Dem wins nom.

[Raya]

120. Have a look at the record over the last 20 years. There is no comparison

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

56. "this type of thing" - like getting delegates to the convention?

That's his job, isn't it?

[mikehiggins]

77. Well. of course, from over here in the other room

it looks like Dennis and Johnnie have agreed to gang up on Dean.

I have no doubt that Dean's people will get out to the caucus no matter what and that while Gephardt's union people will give Dean a run for his money, it is hard to see how Kerry can overcome Dean's lead with his limited ground forces.

Soooooo, anything that keeps Dean's delegate total down is good for Joe2004 and that other guy.

What a world we live in, huh?

[Fleshdancer]

7. Dean has a "reputation...as the master of deal-making"???

How so?

I'm still trying to figure out this latest news...seems a bit late to break this sort of deal on Kucinich supporters, but who knows. Is Kucinich telling his supporters why they should vote for Edwards? Is he bringing up any issues that he agrees with Edwards on or what?

If Kucinich wants to throw his support for another candidate, that's his prerogative to do so, I just hope the reasons are based on the issues. If Dean told me to throw my support behind a different candidate, I would be offended if it was for a candidate that had completely different views on the issues. If we take the IWR vote out of the equation, I would think Kerry would be a better choice than Edwards for Kucinich supporters to get behind.

[redqueen]

12. Heh

If this is because of the CMB deal, then apparently if there's a single instance of something happening, then you may suffer the stigma of automatically have a 'reputation' for it.

[spooky3]

14. not according to selectsmart.com

2004 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE SELECTOR:
http://www.SelectSmart.com/president

given my inputs, which of course won't be exactly the same as yours, it returned Dean/Clark/Kucinich/Edwards as being bunched together

with Kerry and others bunched together, farther away from these.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Kucinich, a disappointment.

After all of his anti-war rhetoric to climb into bed with one of those who support it. I guess the politician has overcome the ethicist.

[MuseRider]

11. Nope, no and

no. That is not what this is about.

[Terwilliger]

21. I agree

I'm having serious problems with this.

[MuseRider]

23. It is not an endorsement

from what I can gather it is just a way to keep them both in the race.

[Terwilliger]

33. ON Edit

nevermind...what do I know

[MuseRider]

35. I understand how

you feel about this but it is reciprocal. They both get to stay in and we continue to hear their voices. I am also a bit unsure. As I have said before in other threads, I really like some things about Edwards. The two of them together could really moderate and work and become a powerful team. I tend to trust DK enough to wait and see if this leads anywhere but for now I think that it is good to keep all the voices alive.

[redqueen]

36. The devil?

Come now, Edwards is hardly the anti-Kucinich you seem to think he is, and it's not as if Kucinich is selling his soul.

He's not 'getting in bed' with Edwards, he's working with him to help both of them to stay in the race, and most importantly: Neither is changing their positions.

Considering that that is the case, I fail to see how this is such a big deal.

[WilliamPitt]

51. It's election strategy

If he is not going to be competitive in some places, he is going to work some interior strategy. Welcome to hardball. Wear a helmet.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. It's hypocrisy.

As one of the anti-war candidates he is making a Faustian deal with the devil.

Kucinich and his supporters know damned well that he hasn't a snowball's chance of gaining the nomination. If he were true to his expressed anti-war stance, he would be lending his support to one of the other anti-war candidates rather than one who voted for it.

But, I guess that "hardball" politics requires one to put pragmatism above ethics.

[WilliamPitt]

58. "hardball politics requires one to put pragmatism above ethics"

Bingo.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. Yes, exactly what motivated the pro-war candidates to vote for the IWR.

Too bad that some of us would like politicians to actually vote their conscience. Like the 23 senators who voted against the slaughter. But, since the advent of the DLC/Clinton strategy of "winning" by becoming the moderate wing of the republican party has been sold to the "pragmatists", I guess we should reconcile ourselves to the idea that voting for the deaths of thousands of people is just being "practical". After all, dead Iraqi kids don't vote.

I'm afraid that "it's just politics" doesn't cut it for me when counting the casualties of "hardball politics".

It isn't so much about where the politicians stand - it's about where I stand. I stand against blood for votes.

[iowapeacechief]

74. The IWR litmus test bites back...

...because it has been Dean's test, not Kucinich's.

As the Peace Candidate, Dennis is best, but he also has MUCH in common with all the others. Imagine him doing alliance after alliance...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

Alliance after alliance. You mean like Edwards allying himself with Bush?

The IWR vote is, and should be, a litmus test. If Dennis is truly against the war, he should be spurning those that enabled it.

[redqueen]

9. May I kindly suggest that people figure out the situation

including the details, please, and then comment?

Geez.

[SEAburb]

13. But knee-jerk reactions are so much easier //nt

[Raya]

16. It is all over MSNBC. Tell me this is not hypocritical

[redqueen]

17. Okay

It's not hypocritical.

:)

Care to tell me why you feel otherwise? Has Kucinich ever said that nobody should ever work with another candidate?

Please.

[Terwilliger]

24. OK, I've figured it out...

Kucinich should NOT be supporting Edwards.

[redqueen]

30. That's fine that you feel that way.

Obviously they approach the situation differently.

As many have pointed out, Kucinich and Edwards are close, and their situations are similar. I cannot understand how anyone would have a problem with this. It's a win-win situation for them.

[SEAburb]

34. Why?

<<<<<<>>>>>>>>

[Terwilliger]

86. isn't this like vote trading?

wasn't that a big no-no in 2000?

Helping each other out is great: Edwards could get a substantial percentage of the vote in this caucus...Kucinich will be lucky to place...it's a win-(give-away-your-vote) situation

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. I've figured it the same way.

Kucinich has betrayed the anti-war movement.

[redqueen]

61. How? n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. Simple.

One is against the war in Iraq and those who support it, or one is not. Apparantly, Dennis has figured that getting some votes outweighs being against the war. Hypocrisy.

[redqueen]

71. No. He's not saying he's now for the war.

Neither does collaborating with soemone who voted for the IWR somehow 'pollute' him, IMO.

Are you really saying that just by working with the Edwards campaign, that this makes Kucinich, by association, pro-war? That just seems so illogical to me.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. "Collaborating" seems such an apt word.

Just as Edwards, Kerry, Lieberman and Gephardt "collaborated" with Cowbooties when they voted for the war.

Look, I would still vote for Kucinich if he got the nomination. But, I don't like his "collabortion" with a pro-war candidate. Color it how you will, it still seems like hypocrisy.

[redqueen]

90. Yes, he is collaborating now, for delegates

Which is not the same thing as collaborating with Bush, on the war.

Still not getting the outrage thing.

[Terwilliger]

97. Could you give me a percentage estimate of Dennis' chances in Iowa?

2? 3? 5?

How about your estimate for his chances of receiving the Democratic party nomination?

If he's not going to get any real recognition within his party, he might as well stand by his ideals. Asking his people to support Edwards, who is unequivocally at odds with Kucinich on so many issues....why even vote for Kucinich in these primaries/caucuses?

[redqueen]

98. Delegates

This is not about 'winner take all'. And he IS standing by his ideals.

[Terwilliger]

105. So what compromises is he going to get from the eventual nominee?

For his few delegates? Think they'll end NAFTA? Think they'll support his immediate withdrawal plan? What will they give Dennis for his delegates?

[redqueen]

110. This is a one day deal

as has been reported multiple times.

The only trade is delegates for delegates.

[Terwilliger]

112. You're not answering any of my questions

You're playing politics.

[redqueen]

113. Which question?

I thought I had.

[LWolf]

118. Collaboration

is a strength, not a weakness.

I don't have to worry about Dennis changing any of his positions. He isn't all of a sudden going to support the war. And he isn't supporting John Edwards; he's making moves to get delegates. He told the nation months ago on the Daily Show that Edwards was the candidate he was the closest to. That's not "hypocrisy." Collaboration isn't hypocrisy. A president who cannot collaborate with the members of his own party, let alone the opposition, is not going to get his agenda passed.

I can see why Dean supporters would be horrified. Dean's already losing support; they don't want any of his rivals stronger. The glossy finish is off the crowning of Dean before the actual election. I'm just going to cast my vote for Dennis. We aren't caucusing here in CA. But if I were, and I had to move to a different part of the room for the 2nd round, it sure wouldn't have been Dean.

Agreeing to work with someone rather than against them doesn't mean you agree with them on the issues. It just means you've agreed to work with them to achieve a specific goal.

This strengthens both candidates. Neither are conceding a thing. Both are gaining.

[Nadienne]

122. All the other candidates are pro-war

And in Iowa, in an Iowa caucus, if Kucinich is not viable, we caucus-goers are going to have to support someone else, or try to make "Undecided" viable, or not get counted in the final tally.

[helleborient]

85. He's willingly helping keep a pro-war candidate in the race...

Isn't that true??

And opposing a strong anti-war candidate.

Is that a good thing?

[redqueen]

99. Yes

But by doing so, he is not opposing an anti-war candidate.

Dean is not an anti-war candidate.

[helleborient]

107. Jimmy Carter praised Dean as an anti-war candidate...

Fine, go ahead and believe you know more than the Nobel Prize laureate.

[redqueen]

111. LOL

Nice hyperbole. :)

[sweetheart]

18. Excellent

The beginning of cooperation appears.

This means to me, that after whatever primary is over, that kucinich could be part of an edwards administration or vice versa. How inspiring.

I had hoped that such a deal would extend to kerry, and perhaps it will as the oxygen gets sucked up by the winners of the first few primaries.

My bet is that everyone but dean lines up in a winning administration, and if dean has the balls to be from "the democratic wing of the democratic party", he'll also join that unity ticket.

Good news! If we don't pull together, we'll all lose.

[theboss]

20. God help me how I love it so . . .

This is the part of politics that gets my juices flowing. Backroom 11th hour deals to save candidacies.

Here's the logic as I see it. Edwards has come out of nowhere to be a contender. A second-place finish (especially if he is ahead of Gephardt) will be covered in the press as a "win," much like Clinton in NH in '92.

What's in it for Kucinich? Well, status. Even Kucinich knows he isn't going to win the nomination. So he needs to make a deal with a candidate who can promise him something. A unification with Dean would seem natural, but Dean is "too" similar and doesn't need another endorsement. Even a little juice helps Edwards and maybe Kucinich gets a spot in a future Administration as "the left-wing voice." Dean, himself, is viewed as the left-wing voice in his campaign at the moment. So, Kucinich goes where there is a vacuum.

[Freddie Stubbs]

29. So, will both of Kucinich's Iowa supporters actually support Edwards?

Or will they go with another candidate?

[redqueen]

32. Inflammatory

Or were you trying to be funny?

Either way, boo.

[AnAmerican]

37. Trying to stir up trouble??

Or is that just a natural way to make friends and influence people????

[Freddie Stubbs]

41. Just using humor to bring up a point

;)

[AnAmerican]

43. Humor??

Maybe in your world..Alot of folks feel your post was totally unnecessary and somewhat childish.. Have I made my point??

[Nadienne]

50. Be prepared to be surprised.

And you will be surprised.

:-)

[Freddie Stubbs]

66. I was told the same thing by someone before the DC primary

But nothing surprising happened there.:shrug:

[Nadienne]

87. I'm not in DC and therefore cannot speak for them

But I am in Iowa and can speak for Iowans: Be prepared to be surprised.

What percentage will surprise you? 10% or higher?

[Freddie Stubbs]

94. Finishing ahead of anyone other than Clark, Sharpton, or Braun

would certainly be exceeding expectations.

[Freddie Stubbs]

109. That was supposed to be a reply to #87

Forgot to take my pills today.:dunce:

[Nadienne]

116. He'll do better than Lieberman

He might not do better that Kerry, Edwards, Dean, or Gephart. But I don't think he will be much more than 10% behind the front-runner.

[Freddie Stubbs]

119. Oooh, forgot Lieberman

I'm sure that he will finish ahead of Lieberman as well.

[Nadienne]

121. Well, there's that, at least...

He might not beat anyone else. But I don't think he'll be more than 10% behind the "winner".

[AP]

45. I wonder how many Dean supporters who think they're supporting the

electable alternative to DK will reevaluate their assumptions?

[Raya]

38. Could take a large % of floaters away from Kerry to Kucinich

There will be a lot of cases where Edwards (like any other candidate) would fall short of 15 percent. What this deal does is push these folks towards Kucinich rather that let them float to Dean, Gephart or Kerry based on the caucus presentations.

I think this deal smells.

[Nadienne]

62. Now, now, don't be silly

Can any candidate really promise that their supporters will all flock together behind some other candidate?

There is no "deal".

[mandyky]

39. This was also mentioned on CSpan this morning

How do Kucinich voters feel about supporting a pro war voter?
I see this as helping Edwards more than doing much for Kucinich.

[Raya]

42. Not really. Both Dean and Kucinich Benefit from Edwards floaters not going

to Gephart or kerry.

[corporatewhore]

47. whats the big deal and how is this different from thenader/gore swapping

in 2000 many people swapped their votes Gore supporters that lived in a place where gore didnt have a chance voted nader in exchange for nader supporters voting for gore in a place where gore did have a chance
nothing wrong with that

[AP]

48. That wasn't authorized by the candidates. This is Kucinich saying Edwards

gets his seal of approval. This is Edwards saying Kucinich gets his seal of approval.

This is saying out loud what has been under the surface for months: these two guys are running on the same issues, middle class opportunity.

[Jerseycoa]

54. No big deal at all

Kucinich is doing the smart thing. He is a politician. Why wouldn't he take his delegate count out of jeopardy where he can? This is how the caucus system works.

You're right, corporatewhore, nothing wrong with it.

[WilliamPitt]

49. I was in the van

There was no deal that I could see. It is strategy.

[AP]

52. Please say something about how these guys have simpatico in their messages

There must be a story in their which tells that story.

[Leilani]

104. I just saw Edwards on CNN

he said he & DK agree on many issues, & they have both run positive campaigns.
I also heard Edwards & DK have become friends on the campaign trail.This is not a big deal. This is good for Edwards & DK; it gives them each more of a voice & caucus strategies are nothing new.

[AP]

123. It's a big deal if you, like I do, consider yourself pretty liberal

and had alwasy liked DK and JRE and have been confused by people who think he's conservative.

[redqueen]

53. OOOOOOH I'm so jealous!

I know I shouldn't be I know but I AM!

Hope you're enjoying yourself, Will. :)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

55. End Corporate Rule: Vote Edwards/Kucinich 2004!

My two favorite candidates! This great news. :bounce: :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. End the war - vote Dean.

Seeing as how Kucinich has decided that politics is more important than ethics.

[DemBones DemBones]

64. How would it end the war to vote for Dean when

Dean has said we have to stay in Iraq? Kucinich is the one with a plan to get us out of Iraq ASAP.

From what I know of caucuses, this apparently IS ethical politics.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. Ethical politics?

Kucinich has trumpeted his anti-war stance. Now he makes deals with a pro-war candidate? Do you not see something hypocritical here?

[wheresthemind]

76. it would be hypocritical to make deals with ANY of the candidates...

with logic like that...

If he made a deal with Dean he would be selling out his stance on health care right?!

There is more then one issue in this god damn election, sure the war is an important one, but there is more out there! Not to mention that JE may have voted for the war, but he has spoken out against the war profiteering and has spoken of the same things Dennis does in his plan to get out of Iraq.

Remember how people on both sides of the isle respected Paul Wellstone not because of how he stood on every issues but because he stuck to his convictions, ran positive campaigns, kept away from special interests, etc? There is more to this election then the god damn IWR, we all know that it was the republicans playing politics so why are letting them do it.

Dennis has been the only candidate to oppose the war consistently and the fact that he is doing this with his buddy does not change his stand on ANY issue.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. I'll still vote for Kucinich if he's nominated.

But, his "deal" with a pro-war candidate stinks.

The IWR may not be the "only" issue, but it is the overriding one for me. It wasn't like some vote on naming a bridge after Ronald Reagan. That Edwards is backtracking and trying to paper over his vote won't bring the thousands of dead back to life, and Dennis' collaboration with Edwards is sheer hypocrisy.

And, I would sure as hell be saying the same thing about Dean if he'd done the same.

[redqueen]

65. That's almost funny

Switch to Dean, he's ethical! (For proof, ask Jimmy Carter!)

;)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. The last I heard, Carter praised Dean for his anti-war stance.

So, what's your point?

[redqueen]

78. You have to ask?

How many times has Dean 'not really lied but been misleading'. You can just say lied, but then a dozen people will show up to say that what he really meant was blah blah blah.

If you truly perceive that Dean is the more ethical candidate, more power to ya. That's your right. Just don't expect too many non-Dean supporters to agree with you. :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

84. OK. What did Dennis "really mean" with the deal?

Please explain to me how allying himself with a pro-war candidate makes him seem anything but a hypocrite?

[redqueen]

Because he's not now for the war

Dennis remains anti-war.

I thought it was simple. :shrug:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

68. I was going to point out that Dean SUPPORTS the war against Iraq

but it seems others have already done so...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

73. Edwards voted FOR the war in Iraq.

Besides that, Dean represents the disgust of the people against the war. Kucinich shared that position..until now.

[wheresthemind]

79. I'm sorry.... where did Dennis change his posistion?

Is he still not the only candidate who voted against the war and the patriot act? The life-long politician who has always put people above his political career? Is the only one talking about Single payer universal healthcare for all?

[redqueen]

80. This is so ridiculous

This is basically saying that the past matters more than the present.

You have every right to believe that Dean is better than Edwards or Kucinich, but this overblown drama is really something to behold!

Do you really believe that now Kucinich is for the war? Do you believe that Kucinich is less committed to ending the US-led occupation of Iraq?

Honestly.

:eyes:

[helleborient]

88. I believe Kucinich has proven he's a politician like all of the others...

Cut from the same cloth.

Maybe he will quite lecturing the other candidates on somehow being different from him. And drop the "Vote your dreams" "Vote your conscience" stuff that argues a pragmatic approach to getting rid of Bush is somehow inappropriate.

[redqueen]

103. Yes, he's a politician

But 'like all the others'? Hardly.

When did he lecture the candidates on 'being different'? I missed that one.

Also, by trading votes with Edwards, Kucinich comes out ahead, so I hardly see how this violates his 'vote your dreams' mantra. In fact, by refusing to deal, those who would cut their noses off to spite their face end up ruining anyone else's chance to vote their dreams in Nov. :)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

92. Not ridiculous. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.

Is your candidate above criticism for his acts? Dennis is one of 3 candidates (Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton) that I would certainly vote for in the GE. Clark is still a maybe.

Do you "honestly" think that this deal was a good thing? I would be just as disappointed and critical of Dean if he did so.

[wheresthemind]

93. Dean inviting himself to Carter's church day before primaries?

Paying off CMB to drop out?
His non-constant opposition to the war?

This wasn't enough to make you disappointed?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

81. Edwards voted FOR the war, Kucinich AGAINST it, and Dean SUPPORTS it

That's the way it is. Dean doesn't represent anything but himself. It's too bad that he got behind the war, because he'll probably lose now.

Dean didn't do anything except for make speeches. At least Kucinich showed up at the peace rallies.

[cbua34]

82. But Dean supported the IWR as well.....

despite what he claims

[Terwilliger]

128. In one way or another, everybody supported the Iraq war...cept Dennis

he should not be throwing around his "support" for specific candidates...hell, the only thing that would have made sense was telling his folks to vote Sharpton...nothing else fits

[helleborient]

83. So which supporters of Kucinich lectured me about pragmatism...

Not being valid...You MUST always vote your conviction.

Yeah...yeah..yeah..Dennis Kucinich is a politician like all of the other candidates.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

89. Yes, Kucinich is a politician

just like all the other candidates. On economic issues, Kucinich is closer to Edwards than Dean. Since Dean and Edwards both support the War Against Iraq, it makes sense for Dennis to cooperate with the candidates he has the most in common with. Don't you think?

[helleborient]

96. President Carter disagrees with you on Dean supporting the war in Iraq

I'll stick with the Nobel Prize laureate on that one.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

101. well, Dean disagrees with you about his support for the war

Are Dean fans arguing with reality here? Dean has been all over television for months telling us we need to occupy Iraq "for years" and "get the job done". Dean supports the War Against Iraq. Deal with it!

[helleborient]

102. Yes, we are responsible for the aftermath...just like Europe and Japan

In World War II...that is not the same as supporting the war in the first place...like John Edwards. Duh.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

108. right we're rebuilding...

... just like we were liberating. Whatever gets you through the night...

[wheresthemind]

91. Oh BS...

None of the other candidates sacrificed their political careers for the people as Dennis did in Ohio when he refused to sell the Public Utility.

Dennis has been completely consistent on the war from day one, something not Clark, or Dean can say!

[Terwilliger]

100. You're just mad because he's a threat to the vote totals

But then I'm not really in support of this move by Kucinich

[helleborient]

106. I've spent months writing positive things about Dennis...

And recognizing a difference between idealism being the keyword of his campaign and pragmatism being the keyword for Howard Dean.

I respectfully disagreed, but respected DK's approach.

Now I'm annoyed because much of the "idealism forever" approach looks like a sham...when DK starts horse-trading in the first contest of the primary season. It has harmed my opinion of him. And, to me, made a number of Kucinich supporters look like fools for attacking Dean as being too much of a pragmatist and not enough of an idealist.

[Terwilliger]

114. I don't always agree with Dennis' supporters either

Those who support Dennis should reject this deal-making. I guess that's just my opinion in terms of many of them.

[Nadienne]

129. I like Edwards anyway

And will support him if I can't make Kucinich viable. I suspect many of Edwards' supporters and many of Kucinich's supporters are capable of making up their own mind as to who to support should they need to realign.

Quite frankly, I think that this "deal", this "conspiracy", this "collaboration" is getting blown way out of proportion. From what I know, it was a suggestion and not a promise that Kucinich's supporters could help Edwards' or Edwards' supporters could help Kucinich.

[redqueen]

115. Attacking?

Please. If any Kucinich supporters disagreed with the practice of voting for someone you didn't really agree with for pragmatic reasons, do you really think that somehow equates to asking his supporters now to help another candidate out so that Kucincih can get more delegates?

This advances Kucinch's agenda, so it's not the same as voting for someone other than the one you agree with. By voting for someone other than the one you agree with because of electability, you never will find out if you could have had what you wanted to begin with.

By trading votes to get more delegates, you get the chance to find out if you can get more.

Boy this is a great day for bad analogies! :)

[helleborient]

125. Dennis' statement seems to be I can be as politically motivated

As the rest.

Never mind idealism.

[Nadienne]

131. Did DK do more than recommend?

Did he assume we would obey like sheep?

I think he only suggested. Like saying, if we can't help him directly, the best way to help him indirectly is by helping Edwards...

[quaker bill]

117. It seems a curious deal

Edwards is pro-IWR and does not propose cancellation of NAFTA or the WTO. He is also a proponent of tax incentives to business, and does not support single payer healthcare.

However, all is fair in love and caucuses, so if DK can get his supporters to go along, it could change things. Of course, if he can't, that could also change things.

In so far as:

"Kerry may loose a few point here, but I honor him for maintaining his intergrity, and staying above the typical politics-as-usual deal making."

I have but one rebuttal: IWR

[Nadienne]

130. Are any of the others

willing to cancel NAFTA or the WTO? Are any of the others willing to commit to an exit strategy in Iraq? Are any of the others pushing for Universal Single Payer Health Care? Kucinich and Edwards... Perhaps not so strange...

[LWolf]

124. ROFLMAO

Mimicking Dean? I don't think so.

Collaboration with another positive candidate, in an effort to strengthen both campaigns, continue to provide viable alternative choices, and thereby strengthen the democratic process...not exactly something we expect from Dr. Dean.

I don't think you have to worry. Dennis isn't going to "mimic" Dean.

[no name no slogan]

127. DK isn't getting any $$ from the deal, neither is Edwards

Unlike CMB, who has dropped out and supported Dean for cash money, DK HAS NOT dropped out of the race, nor has he taken any cash from Edwards. The same goes for Edwards.

It may seem unseemly to some people, but it's not really a big deal. This kind of dealmaking goes on at caucuses all the time. The only difference is that this time, there's a directive coming down from the campaign directors to do it.