Seriously...who's leaving?

[hiphopnation]

Looking seriously at Canada...have been for a while. Anyone else?

Stay and fight? For what? What do I owe this country? This sanctimonious feigned love perpetuating the 'stay and fight' mentality; i ain't feelin' it. America was a noble attempt at furthering the cause for individual liberty but it represents nothing in the terms for which it set out originally. It's been a murderous, greedy, ignorant institution for white people for a few hundred years. I'm not proud of my country and don't know that I've ever been. I want to feel pride in the country where I raise my children. I don't and don't think I ever will.

Stay and fight you say? Fuck that. I'll watch it burn from my lawn chair on prince edward island.

Stay and fight? Fuck that.

[Tweed]

1. Glad to see that you are so weak kneed.

Would you like a spine implant? :hi:

[hiphopnation]

4. good luck

you can keep your sanctimony...

[jdj]

62. I've been thinking all day about New Hampshire, Vermont,

and Alaska. All are close to Canada if the Nazis start building labor camps for liberals.

My ancesters came here from Austria and Lithuania just before the 1st world war, one hell of alot of people leave their countries to save their skin.

I, personally, am sick of the south, been here my whole life, in four different states. I love the natural beauty, but the repukes here... I watched the election results and thought wow, what it must be like to be in a liberal blue state like the northern ones are, my whole life I have never known what it feels like to be around a majority of decent, non-deranged human beings.

Alaska because I'd like to be there to fight for ANWR and the Tongass when they get ready to try to rape them, which they inevitably will..

I share your sentiments.

[Bluebear]

71. Come on up to NH

We went blue last night and we're getting bluer!

[jdj]

87. You guys rock, what did Bush get 30% or something.

You made me smile. When I was a little girl, I always said I would move north, to get away from racism. I remember the very DAY that I found out there was racism past the Mason Dixon line, I was shell-shocked, devastated, I had really believed that there was a place where people didn't get taught to hate people for stupid reasons, on this earth.

All day long, I thought, I am going tonight, I am leaving tonight. That is not realistic, but I am really getting tired of the south. Are there any mountains there? I need cold/snow/trees and mountains.

[BernieBear]

78. You do know the camps are built and manned don't you?

I'm to tired to even find the links but there are hundreds of camps all around the country that have been built and have employees but no one in them. And the razor wire faces in, not out. Definately set up to keep people in, not terrorists out. Call them our own state by state Gitmo's. Every night, they leave the light on.

[Tweed]

104. Link?

Otherwise it's laughable.

[bkcc]

6. That's funny.

Write to me when they throw you in Gitmo.

[Tweed]

15. Not a terrorist so I don't know how that's going to happen...

And if it did at least I wasn't a selfish asshole :hi:

[Kingshakabobo]

31. I don't plan on leaving. I plan on fighting....

Since when did you have to be a terrorist to get thrown in GITMO?

[Djinn]

57. there's quite a few people in Gitmo

who aren't terrorists, you really shouldn't tell people they need spine implants when you could clearly benefit from the implantation of a working cerebrum

If I was a US citizen I'd be leaving - no questions and not because of the many reasons here - I couldn't accept one more red cent of my taxes propping up illegal wars and occupation.

[Tweed]

101. I'm sure you know everything about how the daily life works in the US

being a non-citizen and all :eyes:

[Djinn]

109. hey brain donor

did I say that I did - although given the quality nature of your postings I'd be happy to put my knowledge up against yours any day. But congratulations for being able to read a profile! :eyes:

My fellow citizens are included in those incarcerated in Gitmo - would you like to explain how me currently living in Australia means that everyone in there IS a terrorist - if tyou can do that without outing yourself I'll be damn impressed

I also mentioned the Iraq war and not wanting to support it via my taxes can you explain how this is erroneous in anyway? did you guys suddenly pull out of Iraq while I wasn't looking? did some obscenely rich repug decide to personally fund it to save the US economy? any reason saying one doesn't want to assist with funding it (why I'm looking to leave AUstralia)is any reflection of knowledge?

Who the fuck (apart from yourself) was talking about "daily life" unless YOUR daily life involves Gitmo and Iraq??? :eyes:

[Stuckinthebush]

29. Glad to see you are so clueless

Would you like some insight? :hi:

[Tweed]

103. Glad to see you like getting fucked

You can't get away from Bush no matter where you go. But I guess you don't care. You liked getting screwed. You are the one who doesn't have a clue.

[brettdale]

44. Whats the point in fighting?

When the result is known before votes are counted? you cant win when the other side cheats.

[Tweed]

102. They cheated, prove it

[deutsey]

2. I would love to leave this country,

but I'd also love to fight for it, for what I've been taught to believe it can be. Because I don't the re$ource$ to flee America, looks like I'm stuck here to try to free America.

[jeff_thompson]

3. Seriously, I am

Looking at Germany, France, or Austria at this time.

[UFL_LAW]

7. Canada is too cold

And what is to say they will take you. It is a nice thougt to ponder leaving, I would go to an island, the Bahamas maybe.

But, that is just not practical.

[bkcc]

5. I'm with you.

If people want to stay and fight, be my guest.

What everyone is missing is that we didn't lose the election to the Republican party. It wasn't stolen. People in the Heartland have enthusiastically bought into the Bush* ideology.

The fight isn't against the Republican party, it's against the people of America and their beliefs.

I for one am not in the habit of trying to get people to change their core values. America has shown me what it is they value and, frankly, I'm scared to death. If staying here means trying to make converts out of idiots, I'm not interested.

[MadHound]

14. LOL friend, one of the most amusing things I've read today!

First off, I'm from the "Heartland", lived here all of my life, so let me ask you, do you think that the people here had these same believes all of their lives? Do you think that they were always RW fundies? No, this current set of believes evolved over the past twenty five-thirty years. An evolution nurtured and fertilized by the Republican party.

What the Democrats need to do is to stand up to this misadministration, and start reversing the mindset that the RW, hate radio and Faux have indoctrinated into these peoples' souls. But it takes time and effort.

[hiphopnation]

19. Good luck with this effort.

If it makes me weak-kneed or spineless or a quiter or a coward I just don't give a damn.

You indeed ARE a bigger man than I for having the patience and love to stay and fight. I don't. Whatever that makes me (us) in your eyes is just fine by me.

It's like this:

You see something you love dying on the floor and you want to help save it. I see something gross and ugly and near-death anyway on the floor and I don't want to be around to see it's final hours of life. It's the difference between you and I and it's okay.

[MadHound]

26. Your actions do not lessen you in my eyes friend

One must do what one must do. My wife and I have had this conversation already, and had it again this morning. But our situation is such that we are neither free to leave, due to familial situations, nor really want to, since we just moved recently to our small dream farm. Thus, we are going to stay here, work from within the beast for change, and prepare for the worst to come.

I feel also that while one can flee the country, and find respite for a small while, eventually, one way or the other, America the big bad and ugly will eventually find you and extract it's due, unless we put a stop to the insanity. And the best way to do that is from here, in America, working with the people you know, changing minds one person at a time.

Do you want to know how a the modern fundies were born? My aunt and uncle are perfect examples. Back in the late sixties-early seventies they were perfectly normal people, Southern Baptist in the religion, but not overly zealous about it, very much a live and let live type philosophy. In fact they were regular Democratic voters, and proud of it.

Then the born again, Jesus craze swept over the land, and they, and many others were caught up in it. Inside the movement they found solace from the troubling changes going on around them, national, personal and political. Time put it's first fundy on the cover, it gave them validation. Reagan was elected, Rush started spewing hate, and they took all of it in because it was all wrapped in "Christianity". Now they are rabid RWers, foaming at the mouth at the slightest provocation, spewing RW bile and hate, it truly is amazing the transformation these two have gone through over the past thirty years. And it was all orchestrated by others. First for money, ie Falwell, Swaggart, Robertson, et al. Then for power, the Reagan revolution, Rush, Bushco. That is how one winds up a RW fundie, by allowing yourself to be manipulated.

And that is what we on the left need to do. I hate to sound cold and manipulative about it, but most people in this country are sheep, and if you give them the right prodding, they'll go where you want them to if you give them enough time. The RW has been doing the herding for thirty years now, it is time for us liberals to go into sheep dog mode and start rounding up the herd to go in another direction. We were on the verge of doing that in the sixties, but lost momentum when we lost our leaders that fateful year of '68. It is time we started regaining it again, and since it takes time to turn the herd around, we had better start soon.

Sorry, I digress, my brain is firing random synapses today. Anyway, I don't find fault in your move, nor your motives. Just remember, whereever you go, that 800 pound gorilla called the US will follow in one form or fashion. Better to confront one's enemy on ground you know rather than on ground you are unfamiliar with, at least so says Sun Tzu.

[hiphopnation]

37. Thanks for the words. A few comments...

That is how one winds up a RW fundie, by allowing yourself to be manipulated. <------- This is what we're up against. An electorate that chooses not to educate themselves. I'm not trying to insult your family's intelligence but we have woefully fallen into the "democracy as a spectator sport" mentality. Reversing that...well...I'm just not sure it can be done. If it is...you're talking about years and years and years...many generations of reversing the tide.

As I said before, it's a noble fight requiring not the weak and feeble of mind but those with a profound belief in America as a country. I, sadly, am loosing said faith.

I submit to you that a nation of people who "allow themselves to be manipulated" is not a democracy in any way shape or form. Demo, "the people", kratia "power, rule". Sorry, that ain't even close to what we've got.

Better to confront one's enemy on ground you know rather than on ground you are unfamiliar with, at least so says Sun Tzu.

These are profound words but in this case I'll have to opt for the less favorable conditions upon which to fight the enemy. At least I'll be alive...I hope...

[MadHound]

40. LOL friend, a democracy is made up of people

Who allow themselves to be manipulated one way or the other, always has been, always will be. It is the nature of the beast. Our nation was founded by people who were in the minority camp. The vast majority of people at the time didn't want war, nor did they care for the abstract concept of "freedom". It was only after they have been herded into a position of caring did they decide to take on the British, that was what the great genius of Franklin and Paine was, herding via propaganda.

And while yes, I am talking about a process that could very well take decades to reverse, one has to start somewhere, at sometime. Why not here, and now? For if we don't make the attempt, we will be consigning not only this country, but the entire world to ruin and destruction within our lifetimes.

[hiphopnation]

41. Why not here, and now?

I guess in some ways this gets at the heart of whether one believes that *somewhere* within the American juggernaut there lies a set of principals that are truly the best hope for governing people in the most peaceful and fair ways possible. I *did* believe that at one point, blindly. I want to believe it more and more but races like this one and the last mid-terms are making it increasingly more difficult. I don't know that it is the greatest hope for human-kind so much anymore. My father believes this and I have a hard time seeing eye-to-eye with him.

The larger question becomes if your belief that somewhere in the mess of America in 2004 the greatest hope for peace and prosperity still lie is being shaken with every election that we have how does one justify staying and fighting? If one's core beliefs are shaken one can no longer fight for them with any convincing principals or conviction. It all becomes shallow motions. It's defeatist, yes. I admit it. I feel defeated; exhausted, scared, lonely, devastated, afraid, angry, confused, marginalized, etc. etc. etc.

[Phillycat]

30. Smartest post I've read all day.

Exactly right. I am not in the habit of trying to change people's core values, either. If the majority feels this way, clearly I shouldn't be here. That became obvious to me last night and even more so today.

[friesianrider]

69. Totally agree.

I hate the posts saying "after the next 4 years, then people will realize". Uh, HEL-LO? AFTER the next four years?? If the PREVIOUS four years weren't enough to make your skin crawl and your heart ache for what this once incredibly amazing and beautiful country has become, YOU WILL NEVER GET IT.

This country is a flock of idiots, and I don't care which one of them reads it - they need to fucking hear it.

Best sentence I've read all day:

"If staying here means trying to make converts out of idiots, I'm not interested."

[Selwynn]

83. This is the most accurate and important statement I've read today

"The fight isn't against the Republican party, it's against the people of America and their beliefs. "

That is absolutely right.

The is the second most important statement I've reaqd today:

"I for one am not in the habit of trying to get people to change their core values. America has shown me what it is they value and, frankly, I'm scared to death. If staying here means trying to make converts out of idiots, I'm not interested."

That is also absolutely right.

[Stone_Spirits]

92. I'm with you there, fighting fellow citizens is not

my idea of a 'good fight'.
America has had it's chance and chose fascism.
:hi:

[siliconefreak]

95. I totally agree

I'm not in the business of changing minds either. I want to live my life to the fullest, and that just can't be done in the U.S.

[ejcastellanos]

105. Felt betrayed by my country men NT

[pstokely]

8. if we fight, you won't have to leave

nt

[QC]

9. Canada doesn't just let everyone who pleases wander in

and set up residence. They have immigration laws, like just about every other country. Americans who console themselves with the notion that they can just skip across the border if things get uncomfortable are fooling themselves.

[phish420]

11. Watch me

[hiphopnation]

12. I've looked into their laws.

I know what the process entails and, no, it won't be easy.

But it's dealing with the headache of emigrating vs. a fascist theocracy. That's a no-brainer. Thanks for the contribution though.

[QC]

16. Again, how do you know that they will take you?

Do you have a skill they need? Do you have enough money in the bank that you can get by for a couple of years if you don't find a job?

I'm not trying to rain on your nice little dream or anything, but I get tired of hearing people act as though all they have to do to go to Canada is just, well, go. It's pure fantasy and distracts people from the real work ahead of us.

Thank God people like Mother Jones, MLK, Joe Hill, and others didn't daydream about running away when things got tough.

[hiphopnation]

two different issues

I've got my ducks in a row and that's all you need to know. That's issue number one.

Thank God people like Mother Jones, MLK, Joe Hill, and others didn't daydream about running away when things got tough.

you prove my point nicely. I am not one fifteenth the person MLK was. That's okay by me. I never said I was. He saw something to fight for I don't. I'm okay with that. Are you?

[phish420]

33. Yeah, cuz you see what they did for this election

Lets see...mother jones got our hopes up
MLK's dream is dying
I have no fucking clue who Joe Hill is, and honestly dont give a shit

[QC]

34. Ever heard of Google?

http://www.pbs.org/joehill/

And exactly how did Mother Jones get your hopes up? She died in 1930.

[siliconefreak]

96. Don't rain on my parade

It's certainly presumptive of the people who say, "You know, you can't just move to Canada..." Guess what - some of us are smarter than you realize. I've already retained an immigration attorney in Canada who said there shouldn't be any problem with my becoming a citizen of Canada.

[phish420]

10. Im off to europe..and NOT weak kneed

I resent that comment of the poster above that ayone choosing to leave this fascist theocratic oligarchy is 'weak kneed'. This 'moral majority conservative movement' has been consistantly growing in strength over the past 20 years, and now it is a monster. We got MASSIVE numbers of people to the polls and STILL lost. Why? Because they ORGANIZE better. They get together in their little church meetings and figure out how to manipulate the minds of the electorate. They are good. Too good. I give up. Ihave been trying to 20 years to change the attitude of this country, and for the first time in 20 years I actually thought it was going to happen. I thought we had woken up. But we didnt. We still have a plurality of ignorance in this country and Im tired of being a part of it.

[Tweed]

22. Here's a spine for you

If you leave, you aren't solving the problem, you are adding to it. You are just one less vote in America for liberals. You must not realize the consequences that could come from an all conservative America. We need to stick together. The most powerful country in the world cannot be run by conservatives. We have to fight so that the rest of the world does not get destroyed.

[hiphopnation]

23. the proper end to this sentence...

The most powerful country in the world...cannot and will not remain so for much longer...and it's going to be an ugly fight. Best of luck to you! :-)

[Protagoras]

48. Actually there is a pretty compelling argument

for the idea that liberals need to leave, get the hell out and away...shore up the ideals of freedom and democracy SOMEWHERE that wants it now...allowing America to finish its descent into ignorance and chaos until it collapses under its own weight.

THEN those ideals will have been preserved somewhere, and have the ability to spread BACK to this country.

Not saying I'm headed anywhere...or that one position is better than the other...but I think both fighting, and fleeing to fight another day both have something going for them. Don't condemn someone else simply because they don't tackle the problem the same way you do.

Peace.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

49. This is a very good point.

After all, America is not a country united by race, religion, ethnicity, or even history. It's a country united (if at all) by IDEAS. Specifically by its founders' ideals of individual liberty and democratic self-governance.

Those ideas can take root and flourish anywhere. Wherever I or hiphopnation23 chooses to go, we can be a force for these ideals. America doesn't appear to want them. But America is not the only game in town.

[friesianrider]

74. True enough.

We can't even agree on anything anymore. This whole fucking country is sinking into the tenth level of Hell and the majority of Americans are giving it a good ol' push with a smile on their face.

They wanted it; they got it. Don't say we didn't warn you. When the shit REALLY hits the fan, you lose your job, pension, house, kids to wars, and the US looks like Gaza, they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

[BernieBear]

79. "Most Powerful Country"

Once the country is run by the RW Fundies it WILL NO LONGER BE the most powerful country in the world. In fact, it may find itself way down on the totem pole. But that will be OK with them because Jesus is about to descend from the heavens any day and rapture them all up .... didn't you get the memo?

[siliconefreak]

97. Too late

In case you hadn't noticed, the U.S. already IS run by conservatives. Think about that every time you hear them chanting, "FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!"

[Retired AF Dem]

89. Are you wealthy?

If you are not a citizen of a country belonging to the European Union it is very difficult to get a job. Oh make sure you don't live in Germany and have to pay church taxes.
http://www.religiousfreedom.com/Conference/Germany/warnke.htm

[tigerbeat]

13. i'm working in germany for a couple of months in 2005....

....it's going to be REAL tempting to just, you know, stay.

[bigfry321]

17. I'm looking at Britain

I have been looking at Britain for going to college. It looks that much sweeter now.

[Menshevik]

35. I'm in London for grad school right now...

Come out here for school...it's amazing. AND you get free health care...yup, the British gov't gives us foreign students free healthcare via NHS (althought I haven't tried it out yet...hopefully won't need to).

[sweetheart]

42. you can emigrate to scotland as well

I've said this on DU many times, but again: www.scotland.gov.uk
On the right margin is a button for skilled workers, investigate the
links. You can attend a scottish university and emigrate to the UK
if you wish.

Bonnie scotland loves good hearted people.

[Fear]

18. problem is, the us is a global threat, where will you be safe?, it has to

be fought :(

[Guaranteed]

20. I've said it a hundred times- a country is defined by its people.

51% of the people here are scum. There's no point in fighting it. May as well leave.

[Tweed]

24. 50% of the people don't vote

I guess that could make them scum too, but if we all converted 2% of the voters, things would change. That seems like such a small number to give up on.

[Kittycat]

21. We may have no choice...

My son has special needs (born at 24 weeks on oxygen & other issues), and we are quickly and steadily approaching the lifetime maximum on our insurance. State insurance stinks, and we would have to pay in to suplement it.

DH is a sw engineer, and we all know how well that is going. He can't change jobs to replace his income, even though he really wants to (employer is a jerk). There are just no jobs in his pay range anymore. The only benefit, besides a poorly funded BC/BS health plan is that he can work from home a few days/week to help out with our son.

Also, what happens if the special services draft is imposed - and he gets called up for that? We can't even get a babysitter to go out to dinner, who's going to watch my son while I return to work? Look at the direction this country is going - will any of us "middle class" people actually be able to afford our lives as they are today, anyway? This country is spiraling out of control - one more disaster and we're bankrupt! Tax breaks my ass!!!

And you know what - I don't want my son growing up in a country so filled with hatred.

So, yes, Canada is looking pretty good right now - but not without the sadness of leaving behind a fight that I would love to see to the end. I live for the day of seeing Bush condemned for war crimes, and for all the pain and suffering he has caused here.

[Retired AF Dem]

98. a country so filled with hatred

You are correct. (refer to post 20)

[Nordic]

25. If it weren't for an intractable family issue, I'd be outta here

I can see the writing on the wall.

I don't feel safe here.

I don't feel safe from my own country. I don't feel safe writing what I think on DU.

I don't feel physically safe, realizing how much the world will legitimately hate us now.

Let me ask you this: If you were in a plane, about to take off, and you knew the plane was gonna crash, wouldn't you want to leave?

[RT Atlanta]

27. Discussed this point this morning

with my wife - we may seriously look into it depending on how things go the next few years, or alternatively, relocating back to Seattle - gosh do we miss that place now!

[BernieBear]

80. RT Atlanta

What part of Atlanta?

Do you know Alpharetta?
BB

[marano]

28. Democracy is Dead.

I wanted to post this as an original thread but the site won't let me. If anyone appreciates what I have to say would you please post this for me as an original thread.

Che Guivera said in his writing, Guerrilla Warfare, that when free elections cease to be the way leaders are chosen that hostilities can be presumed to have already started. Anyone on this board who gives any credence to this election having been anything but a sham is either naive or a fool. Democracy died at the 2000 election. Being good people who believe in this country we attempted with this, the 2004 election to use what we have always known as the American system to change things. We said to ourselves that the 2000 election while wrong was something we would not let happen again. We truly meant what we said. What we did not realize is that since the 2000 election things are no longer in our control. Michael Moore and others believed enough in our system of government to believe that we could get out the vote, motivate people to change the country through the democratic process and that we could in that way take the country back from those who stole it from us in 2000.

They were not aware as were most of us were not, that Democracy in this country died in 2000. This election, the 2004 election should confirm this for us all. It pains me to say this but I feel that it is true. I think that the power has shifted from the people, who make this a democracy to those who now own the country. I know that many of our fellow Americans voted for these people in this election, because of ignorance and the propaganda that they are fed on a daily basis by these people who now control this country. Their beliefs, their values, were used against them and they assisted these people with their agenda and a little assistance added to a lot of money...which is power in our capitalist system is all that they need to give an air of legitimacy to this pretense of democracy.

What is next? I do not know. I can almost picture and hear things like...."Term limits are outdated and UnAmerican"...."If the people want me to be President forever that is their right." I truly believe that we will never again see a REAL election again in this country until something happens to remove the people who now own and are in control of OUR country. Government of the people, by the people and for the people is over with for now... and will be until the next chapter in American history comes. When will it come, how will it come, only the people can determine that. I hope that I live long enough to see the nation become something other than what it is today, November 3rd, 2004. I have never been less proud to be an American than I am on this day.

[Meshuga]

32. Go live in a Blue state.

We need you here in the US. :-)

[dethl]

36. Sadly, still in college....

I'd rather not flee until I get my degree. Then again, I have a 30 db hearing loss and can't be drafted, so I'm not too worried. I'm planning on becoming a foreign exchange student to Japan for my 4th year of college, then come back, finish college, enter the JET programme, and then look for a permanent job in Japan. Yeah, I'm planning on leaving the country, considering there probably won't be any computer science jobs left in 4 years when I graduate.

[Carni]

38. I hate to burst your bubble but YOU CAN'T JUST MOVE TO CANADA

I have seen a ton of these threads about going to Canada and rest assured Canada doesn't want Americans to move there, unless you have above a certain amount of money, or you offer a skill that they want.

[hiphopnation]

39. bubble in tact

thanks for your contribution. I'm aware of this. Good luck! :)

[TexasBushwhacker]

51. Excuse me, but NO SHIT SHERLOCK

Some of us have the money and the skills, and if we want to move there, they might just want us.

You see, I'm not so sure America wants someone like me anymore. Someone who thinks that no, it's not okay to start a war for what is essentially a bloody oil grab. Someone who thinks that something as basic as health care should be available for all, and if we pay for everyone to have it and we concentrate on preventative care, we'll probably save money in the long run. Someone like me who really thinks that an Iraqi life is worth just as much as an American life (and certainly as much as a fetus), even though I'll never see thier face. Someone who believes in democracy and likes that system in my country, but doesn't feel that I have the responsibility or the right to force it on every man, woman, and child on the planet.

Even though one of the foundations of this country was religious freedom, more than half of America seems to think that means that they have the freedom to force their religion on me, but putting it in our courts, our laws and our schools. As a country, we talk a good game about the importance of education, but we don't seem to want to spent the money that it would take to really provide a quality education to all our students. It's becoming more and more like "Brave New World" - we can always use more epsilons - and you don't get those by having good schools, or "winning" a drug war.

[Carni]

77. No shit Sherlock?

I made this comment because a kid on another thread was talking about quitting college going there and trying to live.

I have seen several threads where people apparently think you can just cross the border and set up shop.

Do you think most of us want to stay in this fucking country and live under the bush reich for four more years?

[VOX]

43. Not leaving. Wouldn't, but couldn't anyway--been treated for cancer,

and it's in remission, but all my follow-up is here in California.

Thank God I'm in a blue state.

[psychopomp]

76. Stay healthy and have a good recovery

Try not to stress out too much in the times ahead; plenty of us can do that for you. :pals:

[Hobo]

45. I am seriously considering it

Ireland looks like a safe place. Neutral, Good people, Won't need to learn a new langauge. I am bummimg right now, need a few days to pout.

Peace

Hobo

[killbotfactory]

46. America has lost touch with reality, and we have nukes.

Run and hide world, we have no fucking idea what we are doing.

I am seriously considering it.

http://www.workpermit.com/

[feistydem]

47. Survivors know when it's time to migrate or perish.

That's why they are survivors.

And I bet most of us have ancestors who said, "the hell with this persecution/subjugation/death... I'm outta here!"

I know I do --and one of them came to this country from Ireland by way of Engalnd and signed the Declaration of Independence.

Great(x3)Grandpa must be rolling over in his grave at the decline of this nation under the rightwing and the ambivalent majority.

We know we voted, DUers --but even with so much at stake, still so many stayed home and watched TV instead of voting. They slept while our nation came under attack by the Republican extremists.

It takes the will of the people to fight injustice, greed and corruption. The American majority would rather marinate in reality TV and denial.

I'm not sure they are worth fighting for.

[Maya29]

52. My two cents...

I lived in the States for ten years & while I love America and made some great friends...I don't find America my personal "dream".

I want to live in a country that provides it's country with healthcare. I worked as a Mortgage Broker in the States & the number of people that I saw lose their homes due to medical bills was sickening.


Now America has become a monster in the world. I don't wish it of course, but I can envision terrorists attacks that will make 9/11 pale in comparison.

How can Israel get millions of dollars in US aid..while the Palestinians go hungry?

How can tens of thousand be killed for corporate greed in Iraq...while being lied to & told that this is "democracy".

[feistydem]

56. It's a sad state of affairs. I wish we saw the world as our home instead.

Maybe we'd take better care of it.

[Piperay]

58. Correct

and I cannot survive here any longer. You have to know when 'to hold em and when to fold em'.

[Piperay]

50. Mexico

but I was going regardless of whether Kerry won or not. I'm just tired of the 'values' here and even with the right leadership it's too late we have passed the point of no return. Living here is demoralizing me and making me as souless as the people in power. It's going to take awhile and I will probably be stuck here till chimp is out of office but for my sanity I am leaving.

I am keeping American citizenship so the repuke will still have to contend with my Democratic votes.

[rndmprsn]

53. vancouver 2005

i'll fight from across the border...i just can't stay here anymore...sorry if it offends.

[StupidFOX]

54. This sailor's going down with the ship.

Still a chance we can patch up the hull... a chance...

[BigBigBear]

55. I just bought a house

I'm not leaving. I stay on the ski slopes and on the rivers - Bush doesn't matter there.

[Cats Against Frist]

59. Don't leave -- Move to Florida

get involved in local politics. Elect Senators and Representatives who will vote for the abolition of federal income tax. Get Dem majorities. Clean out the Red states of people -- will effect both representatives and electoral vote. Keep our tax dollars in the Blue states, instead of subsidizing bigotry in the red states.

Next census is 2010 -- GET CRACKING PEOPLE!!!!!

[SheepyMcSheepster]

60. i like it where i am, i think i will stay.

[alarcojon]

61. Must be nice to have the privilege to seriously consider leaving

How realistic is that option, really, for the vast majority of average Americans?

[hiphopnation]

66. average Americans

I am one my friend. Not priveleged. Not rich. It's more of a courage issue...having the courage to "just do it" to snake the line from Nike.

[alarcojon]

73. and I'm not trying to flame you

I'm also an average American, and I have family and friends and employment and activities I cherish here. I can't just get up and leave them, and I don't consider that cowardice.

I will stay and fight hard to make this a place where I, and hopefully you, will someday be proud to raise your kids.

[LSK]

63. i'd rather stay and support Dean

[okieinpain]

64. I have a 19 and a 16 year old. and a daughter in the reserves.

she can get pregnant to stay out of the middle east (notice I said middle east, not iraq). but my son's don't have that option. I'm seriously thinking about moving, and by one of the press release's I've seen today I'm not the only one looking.

[BonjourUSA]

65. Who would like to leave the greatest democracy ?

which has a great message "we lead the word for more peace and freedom"

[Jose Diablo]

67. Good luck, I won't try to convince you to stay

Me, I am staying. I will not give you my reasons, you would not want them anyway.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

68. I would also add...

You say "Stay and fight? For what?"

I think an even better question is with what? What weapons do we have in our arsenal that would even be effective?

Logic? Reason? The "Facts?" That's not going to work with the Infected 51 Percent. It didn't work in the most important election of our lifetimes, and it's not going to anytime soon. These are people who respond to important questions of public policy by quoting the Bible. It's a mystical cult of true believers we're dealing with, not merely people who disagree with us on politics. Nothing we say or do is going to sway them. Likewise, invoking concepts of "fairness," "decency," "human rights," or "fundamental American values" will fall on deaf ears. Please! This is a country that just heartily endorsed ABU GHRAIB and the PATRIOT ACT!

This country has just put out a big "NO QUEERS" sign and I'm ready to oblige. I live in a wonderful tolerant liberal bastion (San Francisco) and yet I'm still very afraid. My instinct for self-preservation is telling me to get the hell out of here. If that makes me "weak" or "spineless," fine. I happen to think I can still fight the good fight from a distance, as well as keep my U.S. Citizenship so I can still vote.

But there's no solution to this problem that I can see. America's entering a very dark age, and it's valid to go and try to keep the flame of liberal democracy alive somewhere else in this world.

[Politicub]

70. I'm not leaving

I'm going to stay and fight with most of the other 55,000,000 or so that voted against Bush.

It won't be easy, and times are going to be tough. I'm a swishy queer who lives in Georgia for crying out loud.

Freepers, repugs or other conservative pukes reading this: Kerry demonstrated the way to be a stateman today. I resolve to demonstrate the exact opposite.

Fuck the GOP and fuck everyone else who is cutting bait and running*. Channel your angst into action! Get pissed and do something.

Imagine how much energy it will take to change countries. Use that energy for good in America and we'll win the war.



*unless you get drafted or need to escape persecution

[xultar]

72. I'm leavin

[Edmond Dantes]

75. Prince Edward Island is a nice choice, actually.

Can't say I blame you.

[frustrated_lefty]

81. We're heading for Britain (info included, with test)

For those interested in heading for the UK, we found the following websites helpful:

http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/working_in_the_uk/en/homepage.html?

http://www.forefrontmigration.co.uk/hsmp.php

http://www.definitive-workpermits.co.uk/home/index.html

The UK test is similar to the Canadian one, but a bit stricter in some ways.

Apologies to those folks who think this is "cutting bait and running" as opposed to "standing and fighting." Some of us have dependents, and can't afford to let them grow up in the United States of Neoconservatism.

This * bastard is likely to appoint two, if not three, Supreme Court judges. The impact of that doesn't change in 2008, or even 2012, even IF a democrat wins the presidency or the legislature.

As you say, fuck that. Let these people enjoy the flavor that comes with achieving their ambitions.

[lawladyprof]

88. I'm a dual national

May well retire to the UK.

[Selwynn]

82. I would if I had any way to do so. Those of you who do are lucky.

[Doctor_J]

84. i am

outta here. the US is now the laughingstock of the world, and will soon be the enemy of the world. I say we all hit the road, and let the fundies and top 1%-ers see how much they like the country without us working stiffs

[Norbert]

85. I will probably stick around but...

if he will try and play cowboy with North Korea I will definately go elsewhere. I have a GE Jet Engines plant 20 miles from me and an Air Force base 50 miles away. Both are tempting targets for an enemy. I am a fatalist to a point but not to risk being a crispy critter to the loose cannon like him.

[EstimatedProphet]

86. The Prophetess and I were talking about it today

And I know everyone is going to say how could you not stay and fight for what's right? Well, here's why I can think about it:
The average German citizen simply didn't "see" what the government was doing to all the people that they called undesireables. They turned their head and looked the other way-except for the ones that joined in in the torture. They did it right up to the end. The only reason they stopped was because the rest of the world made them stop.
Now, look at the kinds of things that the basic American citizen says:
"We should just kill all of them in Fallujah"
"Arabs hate freedom"
"Death is the only thing they understand"
Can anyone honestly say that they know these things are just jingositic rhetoric, and not what people actually believe?
Bush won yesterday because people came out and voted for "values"-those values are: racism against Middle Easterners, hatred of gays, narrow definitions of religion, general hatred of liberals. They time and again voted against their own best interests, AND KNEW THEY WERE DOING SO AT THE TIME.
They don't care about the economy.
They don't care about the environment.
They don't care about their own health.
They don't even care about the fact that Bush has been clearly shown incompetent in the one thing he has claimed success in: the war on Terror.
What they care about is hating gays, liberals, and individual rights other than owning guns. That's it. That's your fellow American.
Anyone who honestly believes that we will be able to win these people over is deluding themselves. They are proud to be monsters. WE CANNOT WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE. They don't believe that we even have the right to have a say in anything.
Remember what happened after Hitler came to power. Believing that these people, now that they have their man in power, will calm down is not really paying attention to what happened. Once Hitler came to power, and made it OK to be racist, that's when the street bullies got brave and started throwing bricks through windows, and worse.
Don't kid yourself. It's coming here too, and if you say that it can't happen here, just remember that that's what the Germans said before it happened there.

[sabbat hunter]

90. stay and fight

see my post.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1312072
we can win in the end. dont give up the fight!


peace
david

[wickywom]

91. My ancesters fought in the American Revolution

I'm not going to give up.

[gordianot]

93. Does anyone really think Canadians would welcome so many of us.

If I were a Canadian I would be pissed. I'm staying here maybe not fighting but intend to be nasty as hell.

My native American ancestors have been here a long time. My European ancestors tried hard to get here. I am too lazy to run, and if I am still breathing someone will get a hernia hauling off my 300 pounds.

I also have some hobbies not usually associated with liberal Democrats.

[Gut Check]

94. Is this what * refereed to as democracy on the march? n/t

[SangamonTaylor]

99. I'm leaving this red state and moving to a swing state

Oregon looks promising.

Maybe Arizona or New Mexico...I would love to be able to have Mexican food once and a while.

I finish law school in a year...from there, we'll see where I end up...

[St. Jarvitude]

100. I'm sticking around for 2 more years; then university in Europe

I have crossed off every university in North America from my "to apply" list.

I'm going to stay here and fight... hopefully I'll be able to vote absentee (if there is still democracy in this nation...) from overseas for the midterm elections.

[phrenzy]

106. Deutchsland

I think I will end up in Germany... Contribute to the EU ...

I want to help restore the GLOOOORRRRY of DEUTCHSLAND!! :pounds fist on podium:

[gordianot]

108. Work on your pounds and stares.

Do it here become a Republican.

[SmileyBoy]

107. I'm leaving this January.

Got the paperwork ready to go for a transfer to the University of Manitoba.