Re: Homophobia And The Election

[DemocratSinceBirth]

If we are inferring from the election results that Bush's reelection is a ratification of homophobia we are mistaken...

20% of Americans said moral values were their biggest concern of which Bush got 78% of them... Big fucking deal... Woo fucking hoo...
Those votes were never for the taking in the first place....


Some 65% of Americans favor civil unions or gay marriages... A minority oppose both... The numbers went by so fast but they looked something like this

-support gay marriage 27%

-support civil unions - 35%

-oppose civil unions and gay marriages (yahoos) 35%

Look at those numbers... Bush got more than 35% of the vote and that means some of the pro gay rights voters went to Bush...

We didn't lose the election because we stood for gay rights or choice...

It's a little more complex.....

[republicansareevil]

1. I agree. We didn't lose because of gay marriage.

We won. They're trying to steal it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. I Wouldn't Go That Far...

I think that 35% figure is Bush's base...

Obviously he expanded it...


I think the prevailing ethos in America is live and let live...

That's not denying the morality crowd don't hold sway....

[bushisanidiot]

2. I partially blame rich repuke gays who sold out their civil rights for

an extra buck on their tax returns.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. and scared people...

i know lots Of tolerant folks who voted for AWOL cuz they were scared...

It's more complex...


In fact the Pugs like the status quo... Bashing abortion and gays while never doing anything about it because to do something about it risks a backlash...

[sui generis]

13. irrationality takes no prisoners!

got an extra buck on their tax returns but they can't pass it on to their partner through inheritance.

[xchrom]

4. it might be more complex

but to me -- it's voting against what i need for my life.
it's like trying to convince me that ''don't ask don't tell'' was good for gay folk.
to this little gay boy -- the country now looks{politically speaking} the way it's alwayss felt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. but 65% of Americans favor gay marriage/civil unions..

the progress is incredible....


It is in my lifetime and I'm only 46 that the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from it's list of mental illnesses...

[xchrom]

15. and you think that oppression of gay people has stopped?

wow -- i don't know what to say -- other than that in the same time frame -- i've lost jobs -- been gay bashed -- had my housing situation threatened -- all because of gay related issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. I'm Not Denying Homophobia... It Still Exists..

Like racism...


But most folks aren't homophobes just as most folks aren't racists....

[JI7]

7. could some who support gay marriage be the same ones as supporting

civil unions ? do you know if the percentages supporting gay marriage and civil unions include some who support the other. in this case the number would be lower.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. i see your point....

but the salient number is only 35% oppose both...


That means 65% support gay marriage or civil union or both...


I define marriage as a union between two people who love each other but if someone gets spooked by the name let him or her call it civil unions...

[sui generis]

8. nevertheless

it was a wedge issue that was driven into the minority communities quite effectively.

Black communities were told that "gay rights" were trying to steal their civil rights thunder, and many preachers in protestant-derivation congregations found the open discussion of same-sex marriage, family values, and "morals" to be an open invitation to invite fear mongering and bigotry against a perceived "common enemy".

The Bush campaign made trips specially to florida addressing the Cuban community to talk about same-sex marriage, and there were 13 ballot initiatives this election that absolutely had to have had an impact on getting out conservative voters to follow up on the manufactured "outrage" that had been stirred up by the fight for equal rights.

I disagree with you - of the people who are actually motivated to vote, a considerable bit of that motivation was negative.

More people went to one-issue vote specifically against same-sex marriage than for it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. I Concede Your Points.. Good Ones All.

My overarching point is that there are more people in the live and let live crowd than there are in the homophobic crowd....


Bush got 80% of the 20% of Americans in the homophobic crowd...

[kittenpants]

9. I think it is a bit of homophobia and a lot of generic "family values"

talk that makes knee-jerks vote for *. In OH people passed an amendment to ban gay marriage AND civil unions. pretty sad & and as an Ohioan, I'm very very sorry.

[venus]

22. Accusing Dems who do not agree with gay marriage

as homophobic is like accusing people who disagree even slightly with our Israel love fest policy as anti-semitic. You've got to take a look in the mirror. If anyone doesn't wholeheartedly agree with gays and lesbians they are somehow flawed. I don't like to be forced to adopt anyone's views. I vote straight Democrat no matter what. But I have enough sense to know others don't. Every gay man I know is highly intelligent, better off economically compared to me, and just wonderfully open minded. However what they did this year with the marriage issue was just plain selfish.

Oh and please let me know how many REPUBLICAN Mary Cheney's out there who voted a Repug ticket. Our party is so out of touch. Same sex marriage initiatives brought out a lot of voters against Kerry.

[killbotfactory]

10. Every anti-gay initiative passed

What does that tell you about our country?

At least that's how it looked when I passed out last night.

[venus]

11. The gay marriage issue hijacked our party. I think the gay and lesbian

community decided to make this a visible issue on state ballots because they thought they could ride on the coattails of the Mass. court decision and Kerry. They ended up hurting him. They could have waited until an off Presidential election year to go ballistic. This issue ended up being identified directly with Kerry on the Ohio ballot and ten other states. Many Democratic Christians who would have normally voted for Kerry went with their family and moral values. I'm not homophobic, just trying to give an analysis of what really happened. My family votes a straight Dem ticket regardless, but the larger electorate is getting more savvy and listening to Faux and Limbaugh.

[kayell]

16. Thanks for your support of basic human rights. /sarcasm

[freetobegay]

19. So you telling me I should wait for a right

That I should already have? I don't think so! :eyes:


I am pretty sure you enjoy yours.

[xchrom]

21. more savvy and listening to faux, etc

does not compute.

[sui generis]

23. you are right about "hijacked"

but that one issue didn't hijack the party.

It was dick cheney going to every small town in the central united states and inviting the local radio talk show host while barring mainstream media.

He made the most outrageous fabrications about liberals and terrorists and gays and why people should live in fear of the end of civilization if Kerry got elected, AND IT WORKED.

We did not have a response to a closed media system, and we had NOT ONE BIT of mainstream coverage of the outright lies he ran around spreading among the underinformed in the midwest and rural communities.

We basically ignore talk radio as background noise at this point, but people out in Cawker City, Kansas get most of their community news through the local radio host, and you can be darn sure that there weren't balanced points of view. We lost the middle of America because we lost the information war.

America has been hijacked, not the democratic party.

[DemBones DemBones]

14. WE DID NOT LOSE. Stop playing into Rove's hands. eom

[mzmolly]

20. 78% of 20% is a big deal when you consider many of these people

would have stayed home were it not for this BS issue they put on the ballot.

Some of the fundi churches were campaigning for Bush on this issue.

Remember, this same clan supported slavery until not so long ago. Perhaps the Rethuglicans will put that issue up in 2008.