This is the sort of ignorance we're up against.

[requiem99]

Had a family dinner with the folks today, mom, dad, and my mom's parents. They all 4 of them are bible thumping christians (in word more than anything else) and all of them know where I stand on the election. No matter how many facts I pull out, no matter how much information I forward and pass on, no matter how convincing my arguments and information is, I cannot break that fantasy bubble that separates True Believers from the truth. None of these 4 people are hardcore bushbots, but they are all conservatives. Anti anything thats against their religion, meaning gays, booze, drugs, abortion, any kind of sex outside of marriage, etc.

What I don't understand is how can these people be so intelligent yet so unbelievably stupid and ignorant when it comes to assessing the United States' position in the world and direction? My dad's argument, weak as it is, is the best: "I don't think Kerry has what it takes to lead the country. It's easy to judge in retrospect that Bush did a bad job, but given the same position, he would not have done any better, and at least Bush is firm, resolute, not influenced by what anyone thinks, and a strong leader."

Thats the BEST he can come up with. None of the reality based retorts make a dent. "Sticking to your guns when you are dead wrong isn't such a good trait in a leader" gets me absolutely nowhere. Listing why the Iraq war was unjustifiable and a sham and a lie gets me nowhere. In fact, my mom says constantly "I'm too busy to pay much attention to the election. Neither candidate is good, we need to scrap them both and get a new set." and the classic "My woman's intuition says that Kerry just says anything people want to hear."

And then I overhear her talking to her mother saying that "Oh, Kerry came back from Vietnam and insulted all our troops and the country itself." when she doesn't have the SLIGHTEST clue what he really did. They REFUSE to watch F 9/11. FLAT REFUSAL. They REFUSE to watch going upriver. FLAT REFUSAL. But they DID watch "Faith in the White House" (a sickening example of theocratical propaganda if I've EVER seen one)

I confronted my mom last week after she tried the lame meme "Kerry always changes positions and we don't need someone like that to lead the country during a war" WORD FOR FUCKING WORD FROM THE ADS. I asked her to name ONE position Kerry had changed, or even one position he had TAKEN. She couldn't name ONE. NOT ONE. She tried to say "Well he's a democrat so he wants to let gays get married" but I shot that one down really fast. She tried to say that Kerry was a flip flopper but again I could not get her to name one single stand he had TAKEN, much less changed.

Her mother is worse. I hear "Bill Clinton is scum" and "those evil liberals in congress" all the time. She's 72 years old and her fucking Social security is assured BECAUSE of "scum" like Clinton and "those evil liberals in congress"

At this point I'm unwilling to write this off as a random event. We have a 'willful ignorance' crisis in America, and I think the only way we're going to get around it is to make 2 completely separate Americas:

The Democratic States of America, and the Free Republic of America (I couldn't help myself), because we as a nation are NOT United anymore. It might take a civil war, but I am no longer willing to kowtow and submit to a government that is going fascist faster than 1930s Germany.

Change is on the wind, one way or another.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. You are dealing wiht true believers

They watch fox I take it... and they have been completely propagandaized.

By the way I'd say we are where Germany was in 1934, hence why this election is SO CRITICAL

[salinen]

2. "I don't understand is how can these people be so intelligent"

I don't understand how you can think that they are intelligent. No offense but they sound positively retarded to me.

[nikatnyte]

3. I get the same unbelievable crap from my relatives

"Kerry just can't make his mind up." -- My repug older sister
"Why should we change when the war is going so well?" -- my repug sister-in-law
"I'm afraid of terrorism. We need someone strong like Bush." -- a repub niece
"Bush isn't as bad as the liberal media makes him out to be." -- my repug brother-in-law

No rational arguments (or facts!) makes the slightest bit of difference to these people. They're entrenched.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. The "willful ignorance" of which you speak

is actually due to the use of primitive devense mechanisms like denial, minimization and repression to defend their fragile little egos from the intense cognitive dissonance that would arise if they tried to fit reality in with their cherished delusional systems. They are desperately trying to retain a fragile cognitive equilibrium. A lot has been written about this in the field of social psychology. See Milburn & Conrad, The Politics of Denial for an introduction.

[Droopy]

9. Nice post, JR

That makes perfect sense and I can tell you that what you say is real having gone through a serious change in my life. I used to be a Republican and I was very much like the family members that the original poster speaks of. I didn't have any facts to back up my assertions about politicians. I was just parroting what right wing talk show hosts said. And I thought I was right because I didn't see how the talking heads could have it wrong. I was very delusional. And then 9/11/01. I actually had such a life altering experience on that day that within two weeks I was a socialist tin foil hatter. The tin foil hat stuff didn't last long, but I was a radical left winger for several months before I settled in to a more pragmatic view of the world.

[girl gone mad]

5. After reading about this scenario..

played out countless times, I've come to a realization. It usually seems to be the kids arguing with their parents or grandparents.

I hope there is a real youth movement this time around, and I hope some of these old ideas will start to die out.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

6. Sorry, but your parents are a couple dumbasses.

I'm sure theyre lovely people otherwise
and you love them and they love you,
but you really need to face facts. It'll be
easier to deal with them if you accept the truth.
Peace out.

[dave123williams]

7. Make sure they're doing something religous on Tueday, and not voting.

[requiem99]

17. I wish I could, but with gay marriage on the ballot its impossible.

Gay marriage is getting ALL OF THEM to the polls. They don't really care about Chimp getting re-election, its not their priority. Stopping gay marriage is... but they'll vote for chimp on the way.

[elehhhhna]

8. my neighbor insists GW learned all he knows working for Reagan for 8 years

I swear he's an idiot.

He takes advantage of all DEM programs (fed monthly checks for BOTH kids--one diabetic, one with an untreated speech-impediment), gets SS# also for both kids now that his wife died, and took family leave when she was ill. But he thinks Bush is a genius, and comparatively speaking, he IS!

[roseBudd]

10. Move on and concentrate on getting African Americans to the polls

[cynatnite]

11. All the logical arguments in the world won't make a difference

You can show them the truth as much as you'd like, but they are so set in their beliefs that they are too rigid and unwilling. They put as much faith and belief in bush as they have in god and the bible. That's where the problem is with a lot of people like this.

I love my mother and sister very much, but they are the same way. I believe the reason your family and mine stay the way they have is because their faith and beliefs are intermixed and as strong as their christianity.

[Alenne]

12. Are we related?

Your parents sound exactly like my in-laws. I don't talk them about it because they don't know what they are talking about.

[Cats Against Frist]

13. I'm sorry

Right now, worrying about this election is wrecking my life -- socially, professionally -- everything. And the one thing that has really stopped me from going insane is that my mother, a life-long Butternut (or yellow dog, I guess) Dem is a CRUSADER for John Kerry, and my dad and my brother, formerly Bush supporters and registered Republicans, were easy enough to convince, and are voting for John Kerry.

If they were not on my side, in this world where "the GOP Church of Mammon and the Fake Jesus" is trying to turn up into down, and black into white, and seriously de-stabilize empiricism, enlightenment principles, etc. -- I would be a total basketcase. I'm really sorry, and I know how frustrating it is, from when my dad and brother WERE staunch Chimp supporters.

We're going to win, and most importantly, when we do, hopefully we can establish some adult discourse, and intelligent discourse in the marketplace of ideas in the United States.

Because, as far as I'm concerned, right now -- it's gone. And the GOP is trying to replace it with a rootless/superstitious/magical thinking-type reality -- which is basically fascism.

[Virginian]

14. With Repubs in control, why isn't all that "fixed" by now?

Just tell 'em --
The Republicans have had 4 years of control over Senate, House and White House. Why haven't they "fixed" the wedge issues? Is it because they don't want to "fix" them? Is it because if they are "fixed" the Republicans will have nothing else to run on.

[maxsolomon]

15. if they question their support of bush, what else must they question?

people "of faith" just cannot admit they have made a mistake. to do so is to admit that doubt exists, and the fairy tale of daddy jesus taking your sins away & quranteeing a tee time in heaven would collapse.

they've invested too much to embrace change & logic at this point. you have my sympathy. my "tree-hugging enviro wacko green nazi" sister in law has a mother that lives at the "handmaidens of the end-times" compound in tejas.

no shit.

[sandnsea]

16. Their faith has been hijacked

And taught them to hate. They need to hear that in a way that will make them question it. I think we're all going to have to confront these fundies individually and confront the way their faith has been hijacked by the right. It's going to have to be a values war, not an economic issues war. Broke people never believe they're going to be anything but broke. Their supposed Christian values are the only dignity they have. We have to show them that those values have been cynically manipulated by people who truly believe that capitalism means no regulations on any business, anywhere, for any reason. And that that is all it is about.