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Why were Atta and 9/11 muslim hijackers on Abramoff's casino boat?

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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:28 PM
Original message
Why were Atta and 9/11 muslim hijackers on Abramoff's casino boat?
Hmm, Muslim hijackers who partied it up with a stripper and cocaine, liked pork chops (see http://tinyurl.com/dkxv3 ), went to a bar the night before they were going to meet Allah , and, as if that wasn't enough, we now find out some of them also went out for "tours to nowhere" on casino boats, and not just any old casino boat, but one owned by lobbyist du jour Jack Abramoff. Why it is almost enough to make a person a conspiracy theorist.


The Secret World of Jack Abramoff:Terrorists, Torpedos and Republican Muscle

by Daniel Hopsicker

<snip>

The 'secret world' of Jack Abramoff being probed by investigators today has definite connections and unmistakable links to the one inhabited during their final year in the U.S by Mohamed Atta and the other hijackers.

So as the scandal embroiling House Major Domo Tom Delay and Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff grows hotter, there may be new revelations about the 9.11 attack.

One of the most amazing thing about this most amazing scandalhundreds of millions in slush funds beats Oval Office blowjobs by a mileis that some of the same names in the Abramoff scandal also surface in connection with Mohamed Attas.

Less than a week before the 9.11 attack, for example, Atta and several other hijackers made a still-unexplained visit onboard one of Abramoffs casino boats.

http://www.madcowprod.com/06202005.html


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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm such it was all just a "coincidence"



When are all these dots going to connect!
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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. MIHOP, baby MIHOP all the way!
Why does this NOT surprise me?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. It's more like IHOP
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 03:30 PM by FreedomAngel82
And this surprised me too, well not totally but still: Two SunCruz executives, Jack Abramoff and Ben Waldman, are walking examples of the strange alliance between the family-values party and the gambling industry. Both men have strong ties to Pat Robertsons Christian Coalition, which is adamantly opposed to gambling; Waldman was Robertson top aide in the televangelist's run for the presidency. And than google Robertson and the diamond industry and his ties to Charles Taylor.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
51. TX, that is interesting. Ties to Pat Robertson, huh? More Players here
The Players
Jack Abramoff | Michael Scanlon | Adam Kidan | Ben Waldman | Konstantinos "Gus" Boulis | Grover Norquist | Ralph Reed | Italia Federici | Rev. Louis P. Sheldon | David H. Safavian | J. Steven Griles | Rep. Robert Ney (R-Ohio) | Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) | Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) | Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) | Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-N.D.) | Tony C. Rudy


Apparently, Waldman was also a former Reagan administration aide, too. The connections that we keep running across are all too familiar now; that, coupled with the recycled Nixon/Reagan/Bush Sr. folks in the grand scheme of this (mis)administration, is just too much coincidence, me thinks.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/custom/200...
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kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. Grover Norquist is well known to be connected to many terrorists.
n/t
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #65
108. Just to elaborate
Grover Norquist was founder of the Islamic Insitute, a group believed to be funded by foreign governments, Wahhab Islam elements in Saudi Arabia, and U.S. Muslim groups recently raided by a special Treasury Department task force for funding Al Qaeda and Palestinian terrorists. The Islamic Institute's website lists the following goals:

1. Cultivate and expand Muslim activists and mobilize the community at the state and federal levels on issues affecting the American Muslim community.

2. Provide a platform to promote an Islamic perspective on domestic issues (social and fiscal) to help enhance the Muslim community's input in the decision-making process.

3. Run aggressive campaigns at the state and federal levels on issues affecting the American Muslim community.

Norquist's relationship with Muslim groups that support terrorism became public after Norquist launched an unexpected and inexplicably vitriolic attack against Frank Gaffney, the President of the Center for Security Policy.

During a routine Conservative Political Action Conference meeting in early February, Gaffney participated in a panel discussion about the balance to be struck in time of war between preserving civil liberties and safeguarding American's lives and safety. Gafney expressed concern about one of the most insidious of the Wahhabis' activities, a concerted attempt to penetrate and influence the Executive and Legislative branch of our government.

Gafney noted that groups like the American Muslim Council (AMC) and the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) have been able to gain access to the White House thanks to the White House's Associate Director of Cabinet Affairs Ali Tulbah, a Muslim, and his predecessor, Suhail Kahn. At the same time, Tulbah and Kahn have excluded moderate American Muslim groups from White House access. Both Tulbah and Kahn have family ties to extremist Wahhabi religious groups. AMC and CAIR have expressed support for Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda and are actively campaigning to waterdown immigration controls, law enforcement, and intelligence gathering.

Funny how it all weaves together if you take a step back, isn't it?




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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #108
123. It does all Weave Together, when you Step Back Now...
Someone once told me that when something is bothering you and you can't seem to put you're finger on what exactly it was that caused such a trauma, GO BACK to the BEGINNING and things will suddenly fall into place.

Well, here it is.

Been re-reading this post. One of the most informative post in sometime.

Need a big tinfoil hat, now.
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #123
155. Speaking of tinfoil hats
Remember Sibel Edmonds' article in Vanity Fair a few months ago where she talked about congressmen, corruption and international phone calls concerning payoffs in the form of and congressional votes? Or how about this little tidbit from Sibel herself:

Today, after nearly four years since 9/11, the American people still do not know that thousands of lives can be jeopardized under the unspoken policy of protecting certain foreign business relations. The victims family members still do not realize that information and answers they have sought relentlessly for almost 4 years has been blocked due to the unspoken decisions made and disguised under safeguarding certain diplomatic relations. (emphasis in original, source: FBI & 9/11 By Sibel Edmonds

Maybe this is too :tinfoilhat:
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Ani Yun Wiya Donating Member (639 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
45. Actually, not MIHOP, it was...
DIFFAP.

Did It For Fun And Profit...
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sweetm2475 Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
141. You know it, Patchuli!
MIHOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :argh:
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. HUH?
How big are these boats? I mean are they floating casinos or what?
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Yes. They are floating casinos and they're huge.
We have them here in Illinois on our rivers and since these were off the coast of FL. I assume they were even bigger than the ones we have here. These were casinos that floated in International waters when Gus Boulis owned them, but of course, he was murdered, gangland style/mob hit, by.....
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
55. Boulis got hit same way Don Aronow, the cigarette boat king, got killed.
Car in front.
Car in back.
Car pulls up alongside.
Blam. Blam. Blam.

Is there no honor? Aronow was a friend of the Bush Mafia, too.

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2005/11/abramoff-and-bey...
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #55
120. This is interesting, from the comments:
Is the Israeli mob being revealed?


One of the more intriguing aspects of the federal investigation into the activities of Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff is his Israeli connections. His large $2.2 million bail is reported to be due to fears that he would flee to Israel, as some of his business associates have already done, to avoid prosecution. Abramoff, an Orthodox Jew and ardent Zionist, set up a charity called Capital Athletic Foundation, which illegally provided $140,000 worth of weapons and security equipment to hard-line Israeli settlers.

Abramoff also allegedly convinced Congressman Robert Ney, House Administrative Committee chairman, to award a contract worth $3 million to a start-up Israeli telecommunications firm called Foxcom Wireless. The contract was for the installation of antennas in House of Representatives buildings to improve cell-phone reception. Not surprisingly, such equipment can be designed to have what is known as a "back door" to enable a third party, in this case Mossad, to listen in. That an Israeli firm should be given such a contract through a selection process that was described as "deeply flawed and unfair" is explicable, particularly as there were American suppliers of the same equipment, and it suggest that the private conversations of some of our Congressmen might not be so private after all.

In a previous scandal in 2001, FBI investigators strongly suspected that two Israeli companies, AMDOCS and Comverse Infosys, which had been allowed to obtain U.S. government telecommunications contracts, were able to use back-door technology to compromise the security of DEA, Pentagon, and White House phones.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #120
126. Like all good warmongers, these traitors play both sides of the street.
On one side, we find Casino Jack Abramoff working the knobs off of AIPAC's VIP list.

On the other side, we find Grover Norquist working the knobs of OPEC's VIP list.

These bastards want permanent war -- or until the last of their enemies is dead, which means the last free human.

Speaking of the world's greatest criminal enterprise, Hopsicker adds:



WILKES FOUNDATION SUSPENDED IN CALIFORNIA

"K STREET ON THE TIGRIS" MEETS THE "POWAY MAFIA"


*World Exclusive*
Dec 16 2005--Venice,FL.
by Daniel Hopsicker

EXCERPT...

News that the Wilkes Foundation has been concealing their financial records from authorities comes hard on the heels of last weeks shocking report (in the Austin-Statesman) that another Republican lobbyist-run charity, Jack Abramoffs Capital Athletic Foundation, lied to the IRS about giving more than $330,000 in grants to charities which never received the money.

"Brent & Gina Helping Kids--What could be wrong with that?"

Suspicions are growing that the philanthropic activities of the close-knit group of Republican movers and shakers currently under scrutiny are being used to shield money laundering.

SNIP...

A close examination of the Wilkes Foundations purported beneficiaries revealed more disturbing news. The Air Warrior Courage Foundation, one of only two charities supported by Wilkes Foundation, was suspended at the same time as the Wilkes Foundation, and for the same reason, according to a spokesman in the California Secretary of States office.

The recently-convicted Rep. Randy Cunningham's ties to a third Republican-supported charitable foundation have also been under attack from public-interest watchdog groups in Washington, D.C.

That charity, the Sure Foundation, started by defense contractor Mitchell Wade, a former employee of Brent Wilkes, is headquartered at the same address as Wade's defense contracting firm, MZM Inc. Wade's wife, Christiane, is the foundation's president, and he is its treasurer. RandyCunningham's wife, Nancy, and one of his daughters, April, are listed as members of the foundation's advisory board.

"These two men have mixed up their business, social and charitable lives," said Melanie Sloan, executive director of Citizens for Ethics and Responsibility in Washington.

CONTINUED...

http://www.madcowprod.com /



An Octopus doesn't have enough arms to describe all the criminality, mass murder and treason of these turds.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #120
180. Would not be surprised
The US is looking highly compromised.
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #55
128. Boulis Investigation Dredges Up Big Names - Abramoff
Untangling a Lobbyist's Stake in a Casino Fleet
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

SunCruz deal began to sink-Buyers never paid owner (Abramoff, the mob
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

AP: Tribe Told to Reroute DeLay Checks
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Figure in DeLay Probe Appears in Court
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

AP: Abramoff to be indicted for fraud
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

(Newsweek) Abramoff: More Trouble Ahead?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Abramoff May Meet With Investigators
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Abramoff makes first Miami court appearance on fraud charge
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Abramoff Cited Aid Of Interior Official(Conflict-of -Interest Probe)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

NYT: Demotion of a Prosecutor Is Investigated (Abramoff)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Boulis killing indictment names fourth conspirator (Abramoff case)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Three arrested in gangland-style murder of Suncruz founder 'Gus' Boulis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Ft. Lauderdale judge denies bond for suspect in Boulis killing (Abramoff)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Boulis Investigation Dredges Up Big Names - Abramoff
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Abramoff investigation has GOP holding its breath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Ney in investigation of lobbyist Jack Abramoff
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

3 enter not-guilty pleas in 2001 murder of Gus Boulis...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Ex-partner (Scanlon) cooperates in fraud prosecution (SunCruz casinos)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Feds probing SunCruz links to GOP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Sun-Sentinel: Witness claims he heard hit plan in Boulis murder
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Kidan is expected to admit to fraud (SunCruz/Abramoff)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

WP: Plea Deal Near With 2nd Abramoff Associate (Kidan will cooperate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Abramoff ex-partner pleads guilty to fraud charge - this is good
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Lobbyist Nears Terms on Plea Deal 5-7 Years and will testify!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Motive behind SunCruz affair: good old greed (Abramoff Scandal)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The Fast Rise and Steep Fall of Jack Abramoff (Wash. Post)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


jah bless Octafish
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SoFlaJet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. come on this can't be true
they wouldn't be that sloppy would they?
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Sloppy---no
Arrogant--yes.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
133. Ultimately, it will be their arrogance that destroys them.
Peace.
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bowens43 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. It's not sloppiness
its arrogance.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
35. Especially when your party is running the government
And you know nothing will happen with you.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Pride goeth before a fall...
as the Good Book says.


People that arrogant and swaggering will eventually do stoopid things without covering their asses.

Partying down on the eve of destruction kind of guarantees all the right drugs can be administered, too. :shrug:
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. Source?
What's the source of this information?

I'd love to believe it, but I don't want to do a Dan Rather on this...
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SittingBull Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. AP was one of the sources
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. I googled.

SunCruz Casinos turns over documents in terrorist probe

TAMPA, Fla. - SunCruz Casinos has turned over photographs and other documents to FBI investigators after employees said they recognized some of the men suspected in the terrorist attacks as customers.
Michael Hlavsa, chairman of the gambling cruise company, said Wednesday two or three men linked to the Sept. 11 hijackings may have been customers on a ship that sailed from Madeira Beach on Florida's gulf coast.

9/26/01 By VICKIE CHACHERE Associated Press Writer and Florida Times-Union

snip

http://www.casinowatch.org/terrorists/terrorists_at_cas...

Also, bradblog

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001680.htm

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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Gee, 9/26/01 article says photos and docs turned over to FBI.
What do you think happened to those photos and documents once they were turned over to the FBI?

Let's put it this way - has anyone ever heard of them again since?

God help us.

Is there any evidence they haven't mauled, hidden or destroyed by now?

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #19
36. It's like with the Pentagon deal
After they were "attacked" (I only say that because we don't know the whole deal) the FBI went to a gas station down the road and took surveillance tapes. They had security cameras outside who video taped everything that happened and the FBI went there and took up the tapes and nobody has seen them again. They only show those few pictures. :shrug:
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Dongfang Hong Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
107. Or, you know,
they could have revealed that the men were not actually hijackers but just Muslims with similar names, the FBI could have then stashed the documents in a giant file of "false leads," and we all could have moved on.
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #107
166. yeah let's all "move on"
nothing to see here.
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Dongfang Hong Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #166
199. Sometimes there really isn't anything to see here.
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Dora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #199
203. re: "really isn't anything to see"
There is a clear distinction between a lack of evidence that does not exist because it does not exist, and a lack of evidence that does not exist because it has been hidden or destroyed.

If the FBI takes tapes, photographs, articles, phone logs, etc., and those historical artifacts disappear, one can never convincingly argue that the lack of evidence is a result of its non-existence.
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Bradblog info refers to ABLE DANGER then DOD cites Atta's PRIVACY RIGHTS!!
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 03:07 PM by cyberpj
Representative Curt Weldon (R-PA), Vice Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee has revealed that a specialized unit of the DIA, code-named ABLE DANGER (which was being run by the Special Operations Command in Tampa, Florida) had identified Mohammed Atta and other terrorist associates weeks before the presidential election of 2000. Atta was photographed and named as a member of al Qaida.

Although the unit had recommended action against Atta and the cell, a DOD lawyer allegedly nixed the idea, arguing that green card holders deserved the same privacy rights as American citizens.


OH...THEN they were concerned about people's PRIVACY RIGHTS!
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. And here Bush said
"if you're talking to Al-Qaidea we want to know." :eyes:
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
75. Then, clearly ...
... he must have eavesdropped on DeLay, eh?
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The Witch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #37
97. devil's advocate: (edit)
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 08:30 PM by The Witch
could they turn this against us as follows:

"The fact that we protected Atta's privacy rights before 9-11 proves that we HAVE to infringe on those rights to protect ANOTHER 9-11"

????

Edit, upon seeing the same argument by another poster...

Can WE counter-counter by linking it not to privacy rights but to the gov't turning a blind eye to corruption? In other words, could we say that at that point Abramoff should have been being investigated?


Thought #2: This is missing the point. Nobody's saying you can't wiretap. You just can't do it without getting a warrant, before or after the fact, one of the two.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
39. that's the RW argument---care for privacy rights kept us from st opping 9-
9-11

THEREFORE, we must be able to watch everyone so that there is no terrorist attack again

and we have to undo all the controls the Church committee of the 70s put on the CIA b/c of their excesses.....b/c these controls allow rights to terrorists

so argue RWers
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. AP
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 03:13 PM by JohnyCanuck

There is a weird report just a day or two after 9/11 that someone reported to the FBI that three or four of the hijackers were seen gambling on a SunCruz boat, wrote a source in Miami. The FBI interviewed everyone who might have seen them, that very day by all reports.

Sure enough. We found an Associated Press story on Sept 26, 2001 headlined SunCruz Casinos turns over documents in terrorist probe.

SunCruz Casinos has turned over photographs and other documents to FBI investigators after employees said they recognized some of the men suspected in the terrorist attacks as customers. Names on the passenger list from a Sept. 5 cruise matched those of some of the hijackers... Two or three men linked to the Sept. 11 hijackings may have been customers on a ship that sailed from Madeira Beach on Florida's gulf coast.

http://www.madcowprod.com/06202005.html



Brad Blog
New 9/11 Revelations
Guest blogged by Joseph Gannon 8/10/2005

Since Abramoff used SunCruz to provide services to Republicans (we may safely presume that the Super Bowl junket wasn't the only occasion), I'd very much like to see that September 5, 2001 passenger manifest. Who was on the boat with the terrorists?

Several sources have noted that al Qaida operatives had a strange penchant for haunting casinos -- and few investigators believe that their purpose was gambling. For example, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported on November 4, 2001 that Atta and two other 9/11 terrorists took mysterious side trips to Las Vegas, in June and August; FBI investigators suspected that they may have been involved in the passing of counterfeit bills.

The Toronto Star of September 20, 2002 reported that members of al Qaida were arrested in Buffalo, New York, for participation in a money laundering scheme centered at the Casino Niagara.

We have excellent reason to suspect that a similar scheme prompted Mohammed Atta to hop aboard Jack Abramoff's SunCruz ship.

If -- and based on the current state of evidence, we must stress the word "if" -- if further evidence links Mohammed Atta to G.O.P.-friendly shady operators, then many lingering questions may find an answer. Among those questions: Why was the ABLE DANGER team told to steer clear of Atta?

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001680.htm


From Daily Kos


Letter to Thomas Kean from Sibel Edmonds

.. To this date the public has not been told of intentional blocking of intelligence..This was the case prior to 9/11, and remains in effect after 9/11. If Counterintelligence receives information that contains money laundering, illegal arms sale, and illegal drug activities, directly linked to terrorist activities; and if that information involves certain nations, certain semi-legit organizations, and ties to certain lucrative or political relations in this country, then, that information is not shared with Counterterrorism, regardless of the possible severe consequences

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/1/1955/10277



Can you spell MIHOP boys and girls?

Agent Mike, where are you when your country needs you? As Sherlock Holmes would have put it, "There is treachery afoot, agent Mike." Get off your ass and stop looking for subversives on DU and go get the treasonous bastards who really betrayed you and your fellow citizens (unless you are one of them yourself, of course).




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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
56. And what about Bush, sitting in that classroom...
reading My Pet Goat. He sits there, like a store mannequin, after Andrew Card whispers in his ear that the WTC tower has been attacked. He just sits there, for another 19 (?) minutes.

Other people picked up on a HUGE blooper Bush made afterwards.

Scary, scary thought.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #56
64. But he had to wait for the attack to finish
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 04:54 PM by DoYouEverWonder
If everything had gone the way they planned the attack would have been over by 9:00 AM. So what the hell was he supposed to do while he got caught with his pants down waiting for the Pentagon to get hit?

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
74. Remember when Condi, under 9/11 Commission oath, said-
And I paraphrase, "We never thought they'd use planes as weapons?"

How does that square with Bush taking a portable SAM battery with him to Florida?

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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
118. And not just in Florida either
The Same SAM batteries were on the roof of the G-8 summit that took place earlier in the summer of 2001, because they had the info that Bin Laden was considering airplanes as assault weapons at that event. Frankly, it might have worked out better for Chimpco in the long run if they had hit G-8 rather than the WTC, which would have ensured a continued international response to the terraist threat.

Though still probably not Iraq.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #118
135. A G-8 hit might have worked better
Maybe that's what was planned, but it fell through because Osama got sick.

While the G-8 was meeting in Genoa he was in the Amereican Hospital in Dubai under treatment
by Dr. Terry Callaway. While there, according to the respected French paper Le Figaro, he
met with a CIA functionary named Larry Mitchell, and he also met with the head of Saudi Security,
Turki bin Faisal, who is now ambassador to the US.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,5844...
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #74
138. What is a portable SAM battery used for?
n/t
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #138
169. SAM = Surface to Air Missle....
To blow planes out of the sky. I would certainly infer that they were aware of the Flying Circus in Venice which is 15 minutes or so down the coast, as a Cessna flies.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #169
174. Thank you*
n/t
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
79. I think so. He looked like an actor stuck out on stage
while everyone was scrambling around backstage. Things didn't quite go according to plan.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #64
194. I have to wonder/East coast FBI CIA headquarters in WTC
Could mean nothing of course but 911 always brought to mind the movie die hard (the first one) it's really a bank robbery but the perps pretend it is a terrorist attack.
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #56
94. Here is the granddaddy of all research tools on 9-11
Paul Thompson's searchable database, totally meticulously sourced.

At Cooperative Research.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=...

I know Florida is a big state and all, but here are three little dots. Madeira Beach, then south of that Longboat Key, then south of that Venice. All on the Gulf Coast. All with Atta connections. (I'm not convinced that the names of the purported hijackers are the real names that go with the photos released with those names, by the way -- so, I don't know "Atta" really is.)

1. Madeira Beach -- St. Petersburg area. Sun Cruz Casino boat takes off with Atta aboard, apparently. Sun Cruz involved in a deal with Abramoff, Kidan. Gangland-style murder of the previous owner precedes Abramoff's ownership.


2. Not far south -- maybe 50 miles as a boat travels -- George W. Bush spends the night of September 10, 2001 on an island just off Sarasota.


(6:00 a.m.): Bush Interview or Assassination Attempt? from Complete 911 Timeline

President Bush has just spent the night at Colony Beach and Tennis Resort on Longboat Key, Florida. Surface-to-air missiles have been placed on the roof of the resort (it is not known if this was typical of presidential security before 9/11, or if this was related to increased terror warnings). {Sarasota Herald-Tribune, 9/10/02} Bush wakes up around 6:00 a.m. and is preparing for his morning jog. {MSNBC, 10/27/02; Daily Telegraph, 12/16/01; New York Times, 9/16/01 (B)} A van occupied by men of Middle Eastern descent arrives at the Colony Beach Resort, stating they have a poolside interview with the president. They do not have an appointment and they are turned away. {Longboat Observer, 9/26/01} Some question whether this was an assassination attempt modeled on the one used on Afghan leader Ahmed Massoud two days earlier (see September 9, 2001). {Time, 8/4/02 (B)} Longboat Key Fire Marshal Carroll Mooneyhan was reported to have overheard the conversation between the men and the Secret Service, but he later denies the report. The newspaper that reported this, the Longboat Observer stands by its story. {St. Petersburg Times, 7/4/04} Witnesses recall seeing Mohamed Atta in the Longboat Key Holiday Inn a short distance from where Bush was staying as recently as September 7, the day Bush's Sarasota appearance was publicly announced. {St. Petersburg Times, 7/4/04; Longboat Observer, 11/21/01}





3. Just down the beach from there was a flight school. Atta enrolled there in July 2000.

July 2000: Atta and Alshehhi Move to Florida and Enroll in Pilot Classes

Mohamed Atta and Marwan Alshehhi move to Venice, Florida, and enroll in pilot classes at Huffman Aviation. -- from Cooperative Research chronology of 9-11




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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. Thanks for this info and link. REALLY INTERESTING STUFF HERE. nt.
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. Oh yeah. It's a monumental piece of research, done by many hands.
You can get completely lost in there. But, pick a timeline they've extracted from the big one, and you'll see some amazin' stuff.

Like, "An Interesting Day, Bush's Movements on 9-11".

Most people don't know that he was riding in a limo that has every communication capability known to mankind, just like Air Force One.

SOMEBODY in his entourage would have known, as the map above shows, when the first plane hit the WTC. WHILE THEY WERE STILL IN THE LIMO, driving to the elementary school.

When they got out of the limo, reporters there were already getting cell phone calls about the crash. So, if reporters with only a cell phone knew, then the president's men with all their communications equipment knew. BEFORE they went into the elementary school.

So, not only should he have left during My Pet Goat, he arguably never should have even gone INTO the school. Look at the timeline.
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #100
192. I watched Farenheit 911 the other
night again - it said Bush was told about the first attack before he went in the classroom. Ari told him about the second one as he sat there... and continued to sit there after he was told about the second one.
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #100
196. highly recommend
"An Interesting Day, Bush's Movements on 9-11"

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essay.jsp?article=es...
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
73. IE - Further evidence of linkage between terrorists and GOP
If -- and based on the current state of evidence, we must stress the word "if" -- if further evidence links Mohammed Atta to G.O.P.-friendly shady operators, then many lingering questions may find an answer. Among those questions: Why was the ABLE DANGER team told to steer clear of Atta?

IIRC, Abramoff and Norquist are both tied to Saudi money....at least one Saudi national being tied to the AQ banking system. I think there's a certain quid-pro-quo between AQ and the Republican Syndicate. Think about it. Without AQ, there'd be no reason to be snooping into the public's private conversations. Without the Republican Syndicate, AQ couldn't marginalize moderates and promote conservtive extremists. We lose our freedoms here, the moderates lose their freedoms there. We both get dictatorships, masquerading as security (here) and factionalism there.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #22
191. ok, ok i give...
what does MIHOP and LIHOP stand for?
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IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #191
202. MIHOP & LIHOP -
Made It Happen On Purpose - The Bush Family Evil Empire made the 9/11 attack happen

Let It Happen On Purpose - The BFEE knew about the attack and did nothing to prevent it on purpose (may have actively suppressed responses of Air Force & other military)
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. The sources are there, but I have never read a source other than
the madcowprod in the OP that specifically states that Atta was there. Here's an original AP source:

Attack: SunCruz Casinos turns over documents in terrorist probe

Thursday, September 27, 2001

By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press


TAMPA SunCruz Casinos has turned over photographs and other documents to FBI investigators after employees said they recognized some of the men suspected in the terrorist attacks as customers. Michael Hlavsa, chairman of the gambling cruise company, said Wednesday two or three men linked to the Sept. 11 hijackings may have been customers on a ship that sailed from Madeira Beach on Florida's gulf coast.

The cruise line also is turning over to the FBI video from a Port Canaveral cruise ship of a man that an employee says also resembled one of the suspected terrorists. The FBI has not confirmed the men's identities and the cruise line is declining to specifically identify the men being investigated. An FBI spokeswoman declined comment.

Hlavsa said it was observant employees who made the matches in the days after the attack. One name on the passenger list from a Sept. 5 cruise is the same as one of the suspected terrorists', Hlavsa said. A cash advance was taken out on that passenger's credit card, he said.

The ship's extensive security systems, in place to protect its gaming operations and customers, will help confirm identifies, Hlavsa said.

~snip~

The gaming ships carry several hundred people each day on six-hour tours. The ships are outfitted with hundreds of slot machines and gaming tables.

~snip~..


http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:1UeufYqqE6IJ:www.bon...

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #7
158. Hopsicker has been investigating the 911 hijackers almost since....
...the day after the attack. He is very thorough, and very good.

If you want to read some stuff that will keep you reading for days, start reading through his articles on the hijackers and their connections.
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. ahhh and ole jebbie signed exec order to begin process of martial law
4 days prior to 9/11 and just think..all jebbie had to do is call his buddy jack..and take a little look in his own state of fla...to protect fla.........and nyc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
25. Oh my God.....
I apparently missed a few things in my reading here at the DU. Is this true?

I've read a few strange stories about the hijackers, that never added up. I think I'll do some researching.....
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. I must have missed that
Why did Jebbie start that process before the attacks? Did he carry it through after the attacks? My memory of what was happening in FLA during that time frame is foggy at best. I considered FLA as non-existant after the election selection and paid them little mind. Guess I missed this story.

Can you bring me up to speed on this?
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
40. just after 9-11, when I asked students from FL about this, they said it
was b/c of hurricane season
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. nonsence..there were no tropical storms and no hurricanes coming! n/t
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #48
80. well sure, but they were happy with this excuse that someone must
have propagandized them with
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
47. here read all about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i personally asked Bob kerry of the 9/11 commission why jeb was never put under oath about this ..he would not answer me..
i also personally handed a copy of this to Al Frankin at the democratic convention..he has never reported on it!



from the florida state web site..straight from jebbie land..state records:

http://sun6.dms.state.fl.us/eog_new/eog/orders/2001/sep...

Government > Search > Executive Orders Search > #2001-261

EXECUTIVE ORDER NUMBER
01-261

WHEREAS, as Governor, I may delegate the authority contained in Section 250.06(4), Florida Statutes, to order training to help respond to civil disturbances, natural disasters, and counter drug operations to The Adjutant General of the State of Florida; and

WHEREAS, it is in the best interest of the State of Florida that I delegate such authority, so that the Florida National Guard is adequately trained to meet its obligation to help respond to civil disturbances, natural disasters, and counter drug operations and so that members of the Florida National Guard performing such training are covered by Section 250.34, Florida Statutes; and

WHEREAS, the Governor may order the Florida National Guard to provide extraordinary support to law enforcement upon request and such a request has been received from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement (FDLE) to assist FDLE in performing port security training and inspections.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, JEB BUSH, as Governor of Florida, by virtue of the authority vested in me by Article IV, Section 1(a) of the Florida Constitution, and by Section 250.06(4), Florida Statutes, and all other applicable laws, do hereby promulgate the following Executive Order, to take immediate effect:

Section 1.

Based upon the foregoing, I hereby find that the public welfare requires that the Florida National Guard train to support law-enforcement personnel and emergency-management personnel in the event of civil disturbances or natural disasters and to provide training support to law-enforcement personnel and community-based organizations relating to counter drug operations.

Section 2.

I hereby delegate to The Adjutant General of the State of Florida all necessary authority, within approved budgetary appropriations or grants, to order members of the Florida National Guard into active service, as defined by Section 250.27, Florida Statutes, for the purpose of training to support law-enforcement personnel and emergency-management personnel in the event of civil disturbances or natural disasters and to provide training support to law-enforcement personnel and community-based organizations relating to counter drug operations.

Section 3.

The Florida National Guard may order selected members on to state active duty for service to the State of Florida pursuant to Section 250.06(4), Florida Statutes, to assist FDLE in performing port security training and inspections. Based on the potential massive damage to life and property that may result from an act of terrorism at a Florida port, the necessity to protect life and property from such acts of terrorism, and inhibiting the smuggling of illegal drugs into the State of Florida, the use of the Florida National Guard to support FDLE in accomplishing port security training and inspections is "extraordinary support to law enforcement" as used in Section 250.06(4), Florida Statutes.

Section 4.

The Adjutant General shall not place members of the Florida National Guard into active service for longer than necessary to accomplish the purposes declared herein.

Section 5.

This Executive Order supersedes Executive Order Number 01-17. Executive Order Number 01-17 is hereby revoked.

Section 6.

This Executive Order shall remain in full force and effect until the earlier of its revocation or June 30, 2003.

IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and have caused the Great Seal of the State of Florida to be affixed at Tallahassee, the Capitol, this 7th day of September 2001.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_I...

THURSDAY
OCTOBER 25
2001

snip:

Florida under martial law?
Rumors persist despite official denial from Jeb Bush administration

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Sarah Foster
2001 WorldNetDaily.com



WHO KNEW? Jeb Bush signed Florida TWO YEAR emergency order 4 days BEFORE ATTACK


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

here:by Will Pitt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/du ...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

and lots more here:

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?encquery=54ECF248EF...


all from my files...fly
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
68. thanks Fly! n/t
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #47
183. Reads like he knew his brother was going to be assasinated;
In FL, just like in the post above implied.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
160. And the day after 911, Jebbie had tons of info....
...carted away from the two flight schools where the hijackers did their training.

Interesting, no?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. The casino business is a very handy money laundry.
It'd be easy to hide millions in payments, either for terrorists' families or for crooked politicians, in the huge amounts of cash that flow through casinos.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #11
140. no it isn't, you do it and show me how


you can't even launder $10K because of 1986 money laundering act

go ahead, go to a casino today and try to buy in for $10K without proof positive of who you are and where the money came from, sheesh

are you in the casino business or are you a pro gambler, guess what, i already know you aren't because of this silly comment

if you want to launder money, buy a restaurant or a dry cleaner but forget abt the heavily regulated casino industry because it ain't gonna happen
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hippywife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #140
186. Read the article.
Obviously you didn't or you would know how it could happen.
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julianer Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #140
190. That's interesting
And it certainly makes it difficult for a customer to launder money through a casino.

How about from the point of view of the casino owner? If they've got cash income from elsewhere that they want to hide it seems to be a good place to mix everything up. Add in a dash of the Arthur Andersons and away you go.
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #140
198. "heavily regulated casino" depends who is doing the regulating
Also daily trips into international waters works great for moving things with out the system seeing what is being moved.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. I need a bigger tin foil hat!
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. Just go to multilple ply.
Mine is really HUGH!!! I keep adding more layers.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
81. I stuck a feather in mine. I guess you know what I call it. nm
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #81
130. I decorated mine with rhinestones.
And the boa is a nice touch too!
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
89. Thanks for the insight!
:evilgrin:
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
15. Christ does it ever end? I know this is all good news for the Dems
but my faith in humanity is flaking off like dried skin cells.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. VERY GOOD QUESTION!
:tinfoilhat:
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mopaul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. no way, nahhh, y' don't think--naah, couldn't be, r u kiddin? no, no way
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
18. St. Petersburgh Times
St. Petersburg Times, published September 27, 2001


TREASURE ISLAND -- Employees on a SunCruz gambling ship that sails from John's Pass think some of the hijackers in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were gambling on the ship the week before the attacks.
TREASURE ISLAND -- Employees on a SunCruz gambling ship that sails from John's Pass think some of the hijackers in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were gambling on the ship the week before the attacks.

The FBI is investigating. SunCruz Casinos has turned over security videotapes and documents to FBI investigators.

Two or three men linked to the hijackings may have been customers on the SunCruz ship that is based at John's Pass, said Michael Hlavsa, chairman of the gambling cruise company.

...

The cruise line also is giving the FBI a videotape from a Port Canaveral ship of a former customer that a casino manager thinks resembles one of the terrorists.



http://www.sptimes.com/News/092701/news_pf/TampaBay/Hij...
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Tuesday_Morning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. And what thrill
could gambling possibly hold for men about to go on a suicide mission??
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Maybe families or something like that?
:shrug:
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Th1onein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
21. Uh huh.........This doesn't surprise me a bit!
I figured Bush was in on an inside job 911, all along.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. Welcome to Terrorland, quote, link..... tin foil optional.
http://gnn.tv/articles/163/Guerrilla_of_the_Week

HOPSICKER: What I found in Florida was that the government story about the terrorist conspiracys activities before September 11th is not just an error, it is a lie. The time line is wrong. The FBIs timeline is wrong. Everything they are doing is designed to protect an operation that was under way in southwest Florida that trained, between 1999 and September 2001, literally hundreds of Arabs to fly. In other words, in 1998, there were two or three Arabs learning how to fly, by the end of 99 it was flying hundreds of them. So obviously there was a covert operation going on; the flight school where Mohamed Atta went to, Huffman Aviation in Florida is not a business and was not operating like a business. So it was, and is, something else.

HICKS: You do your homework in this book and you talk about the media paper trail, how they would report one thing one day and then the story changes and details are taken out such as Mohamad Atta was drinking heavily in this bar and then a week later, suddenly the details of the drinking are taken out. Seems like an unofficial story is being created about Mohamed Atta, he was an Islamic Fundamentalist.

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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
54. The lie so big that few dare to ask, "Could it be true?!"
And Atta's actions prior to the attack are back in the spotlight! Regarding the flight schools, didn't at least two of the highjackers allegedly live on a US Navy base?

Pensacola NAS Link Faces More Scrutiny

Senator seeks answers on hijackers ties to Navy base

by Larry Wheeler, Scott Streater, Ginny Graybiel
The Pensacola News Journal
September 17, 2001



U.S. Sen. Bob Graham is requesting information on published reports of a possible Pensacola Naval Air Station tie-in to last week's terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, D.C.

As many as four of 19 suspected hijackers may have participated during the 1990s in the base's flight training program for foreign military trainees, according to reports in The Washington Post and Newsweek magazine.

In addition, The New York Times reported that one of the four also may have lived at the Fountains apartment complex near the University of West Florida, leaving about a year ago.

Graham, D-Miami Lakes, who is chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, was briefed early Sunday on the latest intelligence information, but there was no mention of suspected hijackers having been enrolled as pilot trainees in Pensacola, said his spokesman, Paul Anderson.
http://www.infowars.com/saved%20pages/Prior_Knowledge/p...
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
24. Let it all be known and let the chips fall, HARD.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
27. I don't think we should leap to conclusions of hubris, arrogance,
incompetence, or any of the other leaps that people make, with regard to the Bush junta, before their possible specific motives and goals are carefully examined. Many people leaped to the conclusion that Bush's FEMA was "incompetent," for instance; and that Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon was being "incompetent" when it allowed free-for-all looting in Iraq. In both cases, I think it will turn out--and many already suspect--that it was not "incompetence," but rather deliberately created chaos, probably for the purpose of grand theft against US taxpayers. Hubris is certainly a reasonable assumption with arrogant bastards such as these. I'm not discounting it, and it does, indeed, lead to a fall, and, more than likely will, in this case. But good detectives never leap to conclusions about motives or character before they have all or most of the evidence.

I've often wondered about these Arab visitors, some of them illegals, permitted to roam around the country, renting and congregating in apartments, taking flying lessons (to learn to fly but not to land planes), entering gov't agencies to request grants and making noticeable spectacles of themselves, and attending bars and buying lap-dances--and now, if true, taking casino cruises on the casino yachts of major Republican criminals--not to mention leaving Korans and flight manuals in their cars in the airport parking lots. It is very curious. They seemed to be leaving a trail a mile wide. It could just be that it was a false trail--that the named hijackers were patsies of some sort, paid to make themselves conspicuous (and were 'disappeared' afterward?). But it's difficult to imagine a more...ahem...incompetent plot, with the chief agents of the plot (those supposedly who would be flying the planes into US buildings) leaving themselves wide open to suspicion and apprehension, and, in some cases, deportation, BEFORE the deed was done. You'd think they would have remained well out of sight--protecting themselves from any suspicion. Also, we had at least 7 or 8 of them using false names and identities (people who turned up alive and well in Yemen or SA, after these names were released). What was that all about?

I don't know the answer to this puzzle. I tend to think that the identified "hijackers" were not the ones flying the planes, or even in the planes. (I mean, how could they possibly have thought that CURSORY flight training--several of them failing even the most basic flight training--would be sufficient to handle major commercial aircraft, on very tricky maneuvers, evading NORAD the whole while. It's just inconceivable as plot-planning.) But I don't know for sure what to think.

Personally, I think that the NORAD stand-down is the key to 9/11--the loose thread that will eventually unravel it. Why did US air defenses fail to follow standard procedure on that day, and that day only? Why did Rumsfeld pull all NORAD decision-making into HIS hands three months before, and then go AWOL during the critical hour (after planes had hit the WTC, and one was heading for DC)?

Sometimes, for hubris to deal out its fateful medicine, you have to first corner the perps, or follow their trail, to find out what the fatal error may be. They may expose themselves in spectacular fashion, due to arrogance. Or they may not. We may feel confident--based on all of human history--that they WILL go too far, and trip over themselves sooner or later (and may have already done so), but we really shouldn't wait around for that to happen. The collateral damage could be rather serious. (For instance, the end of all life on earth, due to a nuclear exchange in the Middle East; read Carl Sagan's "The Cold and the Dark," on the impacts to our atmosphere of even a limited nuclear exchange; basically, we all die slowly from the dust cloud that will surround the earth, and that will block sunlight and kill all vegetation.)

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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. In Moore's F911 he shows
how there were known Taliban visitors who were escorted around the country in government buildings. It's all strange indeed. And with 9/11 they purposley were doing the NORAD thing I think to confuse them and not make them get the attack.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. after 9-11, I was just stunned----when I learned of NORAD stand down is
when I began to think at least LIHOP

I didn't even need to read about the stand down......the mere fact there were no US planes attacking the hijacked planes in the hour - 2 hours? between hits was a major QUESTION MARK

then how there was a govt threat to senate not to investigate 9-11, and then the slow appointment and the limited mandate and W + Cheney testifying in secret together with no oath and no recording/transcript

and no one punished for the deaths and the disaster

if you look at just this much, you really have to think at least LIHOP
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #44
63. After reading the posts on this thread,
something else came to me. Shortly after 9/11, Time Magazine ran a story on the event. There were lots of photos. The focus was on how the administration reacted to it. What happened? in those first few hours of the attack.

There were photos of Cheney watching a TV monitor with the building coming down. Rice was there. Bush was strangely gone. I don't think I saw one photo of him. I can't remember what the reason was. Maybe security? Anyway, the article described Cheney in the aftermath of the horror. It said he was "cool, composed, took control of the situation right away". It was very complimentary, said he "showed his managerial side", was "gruff with aides", "had a very short temper in those first few hours".

But they meant, how awesome to have good leadership when we needed it most.

Leadership? I wonder. You know, now that I think of it, Cheney had a very strange cock-eyed smile. You know, the one?

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #63
78. There is the key
how the administration reacted to the attack. Or rather, how they didn't respond. In June 2001, Rummie took control of launching NORAD in response to a hijacking. On the morning on 9-11, no one from Bush, Cheney to Rummie responded appropriately to the attack in progress until after the Pentagon was hit. They knew that a military response could not be launched if the three of them all happened to be 'out to lunch'. Funny thing all three admitted knowing about the attack shortly after the first plane hit, yet they did nothing for almost an hour.

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #78
172. Don't forget Myers and Englehardt.......they were both AWOL, too.
Meyer's made himself scarce that day. Vigilant Warrior/Vigalant Guardian exercises underway and the JCS is on his way to Europe and Acting JCS is cooling his feet in Max Cleland's office....
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #63
83. Norm Mineta said he went down to the bunker where Cheney
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 06:16 PM by petgoat
was at about 9:20. A young man kept coming in and saying "The plane is fifty miles out.
The plane is forty miles out. The plane is thirty miles out. Do the orders still stand?"

Cheney snapped back: "Of course the orders still stand!"

Mineta later put two and two together and decided they were talking about flight 77 (which hit
the Pentagon at 9:38) and that "the orders" were a shoot-down order.

The 9/11 Commission decided that Norm Mineta (Secy of Transportation) didn't know how to tell
time, and that Cheney didn't get to the bunker until about 10:00.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2005032406482...

If Mineta was right about the time and they did know about 77, it would appear (since 77
was not shot down) that the order was a "don't shoot" order.


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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #83
92. According to this account from Newsweek - it was 9:35 AM
when Cheney who was watching the attack on TV and not doing anything to respond to the attack was grabbed by the SS and taken to the bunker.



At about 9:35 a.m., Vice President Cheney was standing by his desk, looking at the TV in the corner. A Secret Service agent said to him, in a tone that brooked no dissent, "Sir, we have to leave now." The agent grabbed the vice president by the back of his belt and aimed him at the door. "They practice this," says Cheney. "You move. Whether you want to be moved or not, you're going. They don't exactly pick you up and carry you. It's more like they propel you forward." Cheney was unflappable about his hasty exit. As he was swept through the outer office, the vice president reached out and grabbed a magazine, a copy of that week's Economist, off the table. "I'm always carrying something in case I get hung up someplace," Cheney explains. "I've got to have something to read." Down the hallway, past the empty Oval Office, the vice president was rushed into a tunnel outside a bombproof bunker known as the PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operations Center. About 30 miles away, at Dulles airport, air-traffic controllers were watching agape as a plane raced toward Washington at 500 miles an hour. A controller looking at a radar screen had noticed the blip, heading straight for the White House, about 12 miles out. As ABC's "20/20" later reconstructed the scene, another controller called the Secret Service: "We have unidentified, very fast-moving aircraft inbound toward your vicinity, eight miles west." In the Dulles radar room, the horrified air-traffic controllers counted down the miles. Five, four, three--then the plane began to turn away. The tension ebbed. One of the controllers suggested the blip must be an Air Force fighter, "one of our guys." But the plane kept turning until it had made a full 360-degree circle. "Oh my God," yelled a controller, "he's coming back!" The blip suddenly disappeared. At Reagan National airport, just across the Potomac River from the capital, an air-traffic controller reported that the Pentagon had been hit. At Dulles, there were audible gasps in the control room. In the relative safety of a tunnel far below the White House, Cheney was told by the Secret Service that a plane had been tracked heading for the White House at high speed. The vice president reached for a phone on the wall and said, "Get me the president." The chief executive was not easy to reach; he was at that moment being hustled on to Air Force One for a quick departure from Sarasota. The president had already been told by his chief of staff, Andrew Card, that "America is under attack." Now, when Bush finally came on the line, Cheney told him that the White House had been "targeted." As the president and vice president spoke on the secure line, Cheney's wife, Lynne, appeared in the tunnel with her Secret Service agent. She had been at her downtown office when the second tower was hit shortly after 9 a.m. She was moved "rather briskly" to a car, she recalls, and sped toward the vice president's mansion in northwest Washington. Abruptly, her car made a U-turn and headed back downtown toward the White House. She arrived just as the complex was being evacuated. At first the guards would not let her in, but her determined agent drove up on the sidewalk around the barrier. Mrs. Cheney was rushed down to the PEOC to meet her husband. As she arrived, Vice President Cheney had just learned that the Pentagon had been hit. The first reports indicated that a helicopter had crashed into it. Over the phone, Bush was saying that he wanted to come back to Washington right away. Cheney urged him not to come back, as he later recalled, "until we could find out what the hell was going on." The president and his No. 2 talked about protective measures. At the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had already ordered Air National Guard fighters to take to the skies to guard New York and Washington against further attack. Cheney knew that the pilots needed to be given "rules of engagement" that would allow them to know when to shoot. What if a commercial airliner was not responding to radio calls or warnings from the fighter pilots to turn away? "I recommended that we authorize them to shoot," Cheney recalls telling Bush. "We talked about it briefly. And he said, 'OK, I'll sign up to that.' He made the decision." Shortly before 10 a.m., the Cheneys were led into the PEOC conference room, a wood-paneled chamber with a large table and a wall of TV screens. A plate of store-bought cookies was on the table. "It was surreal," recalls Lynne Cheney. "You know, it was sort of like the polite hostess--there you are in the middle of this amazing crisis, and somebody remembers to put out the cookies." No one reached for one. Instead, they looked up at the TV screens. It was 9:58 a.m.

Newsweek
December 31, 2001 issue
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/2001/newswe...

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #92
101. 9:35 he was evacuated from his office, says Newsweek,
and adds that he dawdled through the tunnel so he didn't get to the bunker 'til 9:58.

But Mineta said Cheney was already in the bunker when he got there at 9:20, and Mineta's
timeline is corrobarated by Richard Clarke's and by WHY photographer Richard Bohrer.

So we've got Cheney taking 20 minutes to walk through the tunnel, and we've got Rummy who
claims he can leap in a single bound from his office on the e. side of the Pentagon to the
impact zone on the west side and back. First he claimed he went and helped the wounded for
half an hour, but he told the 9/11 Commission he was back in his office by about 10:00.

These guys are lying even about simple things like where they were.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #92
206. A note on Newsweek: I noticed that Newsweek permitted Cheney to
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 03:51 PM by Peace Patriot
plant some information in its pages regarding a meeting he had with former Congressman Gary Condit on the day, and during the same hours, that Chandra Levy disappeared. It had to do with how long the meeting was and who was there. Condit had a big hole in his schedule that day, from 12:00 to 3 pm. He met with Cheney at noon. Yet three months went by (two months, from the publication of Condit's schedule re her disappearance day, 5/1/01) during which no one--not FBI, not DC police, nor any news agency--asked Cheney or his aides, a) did the meeting take place?, b) how long was it?, c) who was present?, and d) what was it about? No questions of Cheney--not even just, did the meeting take place? Or, at least, that's what his aides maintained in the information that finally appeared about this matter, in Newsweek, in 8/01. No one had asked them anything. You may recall that Condit/Levy was the hottest news story that summer in the leadup to 9/11--a total media frenzy around it.

In the week before Cheney planted his version of the meeting with Condit in Newsweek, the DC police changed the time-frame for Levy's disappearance, from mid-morning to early afternoon--making Dick Cheney Gary Condit's only alibi during her disappearance hours. The FBI had her computer for 3 months before they (apparently) discovered that she had done a MapQuest search of Rock Creek Park; they then re-set the time-frame for her disappearance (in public statements), and did a highly visible re-search of the park, with parades of cadets in front page news photos. A week later, Newsweek published Cheney's version of the meeting with Condit that occurred during this new disappearance window; his aides said the meeting lasted only 20 minutes, that two aides were present, and that it was about legislation. (Two days after Levy's May 1st disappearance, on May 3, Condit had been one of only ten Democrats who voted for Bush/Cheney's first tax cut for the rich.) Cheney had been given 2-3 months to come up with his version of that meeting, and chose Newsweek as the place to publicize that information.

Three other things to keep in mind, for anyone who wants to look into this story: 1) there was a high-profile Congressional investigation of the FBI going on at that time (the substance of which I could never understand); 2) Condit was a member of the House Intelligence Committee doing the investigation; and 3) Minnesota FBI agent Colleen Rowley was meanwhile fruitlessly begging FBI-DC to okay her access to Zacharias Moussaoui's (the 20th hijacker's?) computer.

Needless to say, I take Newsweek's account of Cheney's doings on the morning of 9/11 with a grain of salt.
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catzies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #63
139. Poppy spent the night in the White House while * was in Florida, and
the next day attended a shareholders' meeting of The Carlyle Group. In the Watergate Hotel IIRC. :shrug:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
110. You and me, both!
My biggest problem dealing with 9-11 was Norad. Where was Norad?

When I learned they were told to stand-down it blew me away. And all the cover-ups; etc., etc... Reading a pet-goat book still stuns most, if not everyone I've ever met.
Bush ignored warnings
Planes shuttle Bin Laden families out of country, ASAP when none of us could fly.

And on and on..

The whole event is so overly questionable...
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #44
142. we were under attack for almost 2 hours and not a single jet fighter
intervened.



peace
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
50. Excellent post, thank you
I have been following the Abramoff hearings on C-Span for the past year and have been stunned by the range of his reach, and the sheer magnitude of the schemes he was involved in. I had also read this story of Atta being seen on a Sunkruz Casino boat, and the FBI investigating. How long does that take?

Last week when I heard that Abramoff was being pressured to make a deal, I wondered why, since he seemed to be the main target of that particular investigation (the SunKruz issue). Prosecutors rarely make deals with the main targets of their investigation.

But then I read the story of the huge, multi-million dollar loans that Abramoff and his partner, Adam Kidan were able to get, even while Kidan (and presumably Abramoff had serious debts of their own).

The question arose, why on earth would anyone okay a loan to two people whose finances were in such disarray, particularly Kidan's, in order to buy a Casino business? True, documents were forged, it seems but still, lending instituions are not that easily fooled, particularly with this much money at stake.

This Casino deal (SunKruz) therefore, might have been of interest to someone (or 'ones') other than just Abramoff and Kidan, who may have prompted the two lending agencies to go ahead and lend them the money. As of now, the two agencies involved will not answer any questions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that all along, I thought that Abramoff was working for himself, while being appreciated by the Republicans who dealt with him, like Tom Delay. Now, I'm wondering, since he's making this deal, who it is the Prosecutors are REALLY interested in.

Florida, the Mafia murder of Boulis which got him out of the way of the SunKruz business, Atta, Abramoff ~ 9/11, flight schools in Florida etc. etc. So many pieces to a puzzle that keep emerging ~

Your questions about NORAD are intriguing and as yet, unanswered. We need a thorough investigation of 9/11, that has yet to happen. As more information emerges, most people I know, even Repubs, no longer believe the 'official' version.

What I don't get is though, we pretty much know that Atta was no fundamentalist Islamist. He had an American girlfriend, it was reported early on. He partied, gambled etc. So, if he did indeed die on 9/11, what was he dying for?

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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
87. A simple question for the Pentagon.
Was 93,11,175, and 77 part of Vigilant Guardian/Vigilant Warrior exercises on 9/11. That would be a most enlightening aspect to the whole event.

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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
125. This and the put options on United and American are the keys for me.
"Personally, I think that the NORAD stand-down is the key to 9/11--the loose thread that will eventually unravel it. Why did US air defenses fail to follow standard procedure on that day, and that day only? Why did Rumsfeld pull all NORAD decision-making into HIS hands three months before, and then go AWOL during the critical hour (after planes had hit the WTC, and one was heading for DC)?"

And the fact that they said they investigated the puts and found nothing there but declined to detail their findings only confirms their importance to the plot, although the cover up did help identify a few enablers.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #27
195. Agree. And, one key is that they didn't need to know how to fly ...
... those aircraft. All they needed to know how to do was engage the auto-pilot system. Place that in your "NORAD" equation and ...

They needed to kill or subdue the pilots and the aircrew (and, perhaps some passengers) and engage the auto-pilot; someone else could take care of the details.

That is the only way I can make sense of some guys who didn't even display the ability to land a single engine aircraft, let alone fly and manuver large jet aircraft.

However, we know we have folk who can sit thousands of miles away from an aircraft and do some rather amazing stuff ...

Just a thought.


Peace.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
30. Isn't he supposed to "sing"?
Will he sing everything??
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
33. Just what was he doing there? Did he gamble, or
was he there for a meeting?
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Probably both
Don't they usually have meetings and gamble?
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
62. Maybe the meet and gambol.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
34. When they tie in Bush
which one do they mean? Jeb I'm assuming??
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
41. How many people a year sailed on the SunCruz floating casino?
Just wondering..........
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Even If You Were Generous On That Number, The Mathematical Odds Of
The 9-11 hijackers taking a trip on it (same as you or I taking a trip) would be astronomical.

Think, what are the chances that you, a polical nobody, would've bumped into Atta or the others at some point, one in a million? Those odds would be staggering for any joe regular who would've bumped into them. Take into account now that the joe regular was one of the most corrupt and behind the scenes political operatives that exist today, and those odds are exponentially more staggering.
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. They lived in S. Florida at the time.
The casino was pretty big. What are the odds that a person living in Las Vegas goes to the Mirage in a year? Not what I would call "staggering".
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. Apparently
Their visits to Las Vegas were also of concern:

http://www.casinowatch.org/terrorists/terrorists_at_cas...



Hijackers' Tracks in Las Vegas
Gambling Strip Combed for Evidence of Several Terrorists
LAS VEGAS -- Additional FBI agents are being brought to this city to chase down hundreds of leads and track the movements of terrorists who repeatedly visited here in the months before the Sept. 11 attacks. Mohamed Atta, a suspected ringleader of the terrorist attack that left more than 5,000 people dead, made at least two trips here. In addition to Atta, authorities also believe that Marwan Al-Shehhi, Nawaf Alhazmi, Hani Hanjour and Ziad Samir Jarrah also visited the city. All five men were killed in the attacks in New York and Washington.
By William Booth Washington Post Staff Writer 9/14/01




Terrorists had no apparent reason to visit Las Vegas ...
So why did they?
On June 28 at Bostons Logan Airport, Mohamed Atta boarded a United Airlines flight and flew first class nonstop to San Francisco, where he bypassed the bohemian North Beach district and didnt take the cruise to Alcatraz. Instead, Atta took the first of two side trips to Las Vegas.
On Aug. 10, Hani Hanjour and Nawaf Alhazmi used first-class tickets for a United flight from Dulles Airport near Washington, D.C., to Los Angeles International Airport, then on to Las Vegas. Las Vegas FBI Special Agent in Charge Grant Ashley candidly admitted that the whole story of the terrorists Las Vegas connection may never be known. Authorities on the hijackers sponsor, Osama bin Laden, note that counterfeiting has been one of the al-Qaida terrorist network's signatures. Were the hijackers passing off funny money? Spies and arms dealers have made this a second home for more than a generation.
11/4/01 Las Vegas Review-Journal COLUMN: John L. Smith

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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #57
157. yeah, my brother-in-law
and I were talking about the Vegas connection. Apparently, McVeigh and Nichols also went to Vegas before their big event. He told me they went to the same strip joint that the alleged 9/11 terrorists were seen at. It's just something that makes you go Hmmmmm. I remember right after 9/11, they interviewed an immigrations official who was upset because he was informed to pass through all citizens from Saudi Arabia without questions, without any type of investigations. Do any of you remember that interview afterward? And, I keep thinking, as a matter of fact it gives me shivers, to think that Flight 93, which took off late could have been targeting Congress--not the White House, but Congress. Congress was in session and think what would have happened afterward---complete dictatorship!!!!
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #49
71. Yeah it could all be coincidence (after all 9.11 is littered with them)
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 05:22 PM by JohnyCanuck
that it was Abramoff's boat the hijackers picked for a gambling cruise (or a money lauding operation) just days before they allegedly offed themselves and a couple plane loads of passengers,


However, Sibel Edmonds the FBI whistle blower does maintain that the 911 terrorists were protected because of their connections to important political figures in the US who were tied into drug dealing and money laundering operations.


The Village Voice
This Made Ashcroft Gag
Translator keeps blowing 9-11 whistle on FBI; U.S. Keeps shutting her up

by James Ridgeway
May 25th, 2004 12:00 PM

<snip>

Sibel Edmonds, the translator, said in an interview Monday with the Voice that the Florida case illustrates the issues and evidence she has been trying to make public for two years. Edmonds claimed to have translated testimony in criminal and counter-intelligence cases involving different FBI field offices, going back into the late 1990s. Much of this involved tracking money, she said.

Among the Farsi translators working for the FBI, she said, it was common knowledge that a longtime, highly regarded FBI "asset" placed in Afghanistan told the agency in April 2001 that he had information from his contacts there that bin Laden was planning a major attack, involving the use of planes, in one or another of big American citiesChicago, Los Angeles, and New York among them. The agents who took down the information from the spy wrote up reports and sent them to their superiors. That was the last the agents heard of the matter.

<snip>

She said, however, that "there are a lot of activities in the U.S. A lot of money . . . and these activities involve money laundering, drugs, a support network for terrorism . . . people in high places . . . (people) in the political arena."

<snip>

Edmonds can't tell what she may know because Attorney General John Ashcroft recently invoked an arcane law to make her statements "classified"including previously public statements and journalism quoting her on the case.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0421,mondo1,53783,6.ht...


I wonder just what money laundering activities and "people in high places" Ashcroft was so anxious to keep under wraps that he had Edmonds slapped with a gag order. Whoever it was, seems they must have had some pretty powerful connections at any rate.


Letter to Thomas Kean from Sibel Edmonds

.. To this date the public has not been told of intentional blocking of intelligence..This was the case prior to 9/11, and remains in effect after 9/11. If Counterintelligence receives information that contains money laundering, illegal arms sale, and illegal drug activities, directly linked to terrorist activities; and if that information involves certain nations, certain semi-legit organizations, and ties to certain lucrative or political relations in this country (emphasis mine /jc), then, that information is not shared with Counterterrorism, regardless of the possible severe consequences.


http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/10/1/1955/10277




If -- and based on the current state of evidence, we must stress the word "if" -- if further evidence links Mohammed Atta to G.O.P.-friendly shady operators, then many lingering questions may find an answer. Among those questions: Why was the ABLE DANGER team told to steer clear of Atta?

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001680.htm

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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
117. actually it is, I have lived in S. Florida for over 10 years and have been
to the Sun Cruz Casino's all of once. I do like to Gamble and friends that I know who are bigger betters than myself almost never go. Because they can get their fix in many other ways. There are land lock Indian Casinos (no Sea Sickness), people bet on football left and right. Also the simple fact that online gaming keeps a lot of those people at home. No the odds of running into Atta is pretty phenomenal, and that is if your a retired regular who is on the boat all of the time and does not include the un-retired part of the population which is staggering when looking at it from a demographic point of view. Operationmindcrime is pretty accurate on this.
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #49
185. I lived in Reno for a couple of years;
And the locals usually did not frequent the big casinos. They were too large, took too much time to get into and back out of one. The locals gambled at the family run joints. The one story jobs with all the neon that a tourist would not give a second look to.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #46
144. you're not a mathematician or a gambler, are you, mindcrime?
the young men were documented consumers of strippers and gambling who lived in south florida

what was my chance of meeting david duke at the gaming tables in mississippi?

gosh, since i only ran into him throwing away his money about skaty-eight times, you do the math

i know people who gambled until the day they died, i know people who died at the tables

only people who don't gamble find anything odd in this

the weird thing would be if these stripper and gambling addicts did NOT go on the boats when trapped in florida
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
58. WELL I LIVELESS THAN 10 MINUTE DRIVE FROM PLACE IN ST PETE TIMES
ARTICLE ABOVE..NEAR JOHNS PASS..AND I HAVE NEVER GONE ON ONE,.nor have any of my vacationing guests!!

http://www.sptimes.com/News/092701/news_pf/TampaBay/Hij...

TREASURE ISLAND -- Employees on a SunCruz gambling ship that sails from John's Pass think some of the hijackers in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks were gambling on the ship the week before the attacks.

fly
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tx_dem41 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. When I lived in New Orleans, I didn't go to Harrah's either.
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 04:38 PM by tx_dem41
That didn't mean a lot of people didn't go. And, there's no reason to shout.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #58
146. i lived in north carolina 6 yrs and never smoked a cigarette
that doesn't prove dick abt what a young man would do who is on record going out w. strippers and being addicted to gambling in vegas

logic people

if flyarm was king of the terrorists there would be no 9-11 but GUESS WHAT, evil people don't try to fight their addictions when they know they're going to fuckin die what would be the point?

oh yeah let me give up my blackjack addiction 2 days before i'm going to blow up in an airplane anyway, that makes a lotta sense...not

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
66. Here's a pic


There big boats but not that big. Not like a cruise ship. They probably hold about 300 people per trip?

One point though, this wasn't just a once shot deal. Apparently Atta and another hijacker were seen a number of times on this ship that Jack Abramoff just happen to have bought a few months earlier in a fraudulent deal.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
52. This is certainly something worth looking into
I don't know if it will lead any place but their is enough coincidence here that it should definitely be investigated.
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
53. Holy Shit this is unreal !
What are the odds on this.

Rec!
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GreenPoet64 Donating Member (897 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. It makes me say "hmmmmm."
I'm not usually a tinfoil hatter, but this one makes me wonder. I'm sure any ties have been investigated--but by whom?
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. I don't believe in coincidence when it come to scum like Abramoff
"hmmmmm." indeed.


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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. Supposedly the FBI
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 05:00 PM by DoYouEverWonder
they confiscated all the videos and photos they could find within a couple of days of the attack. Apparently Atta had been on board a number of times.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #59
86. "ties have been investigated--but by whom?"
Daniel Hopsicker.



He's written a book "Welcome to Terrorland" and produced some videos, and you
can see streamimg video of his reports here:

http://www.madcowprod.com /

Also here: http://www.911busters.com/SanFran04/index.html

I was initially inclined to be skeptical of Hopsicker, but Joseph Cannon thinks highly
of him, and Cannon's sense of journalistic ethics seems pretty highly developed.


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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #86
109. What impresses me about Hopsicker is that he is a detail man.
He's not out making huge claims about 9-11 -- but rather examining in excruciating detail the goings on in Florida. It's very, very, very weird.

And for me, the weirdest aspect is how little we -- Americans as a whole -- know about what happened. We have this very vague idea about a few guys in turbans taking over planes, that's it. Immediately after 9-11, for about a week, there were a lot of stories about the hijackers and their movements in the weeks before the big day, and then suddenly the stories stopped.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. "examining in excruciating detail"
Right, he's that dead breed--an honest-to-god investigative journalist who goes out
and knocks on doors and tracks down witnesses (like Atta's girlfriend) and asks the
questions people need to be asked.

Which is why I was skeptical about him at first--he reports stuff that nobody else
reports, because he's learned stuff that nobody else knows. But I have no reason to
think he's making it up. And he seems to have the field of "Activities and Associates
of the FL Hijackers" entirely to himself. Nobody else is interested.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #53
147. the odds on this
i used to play for a pro gambling team, the odds that atta (a known gambling addict) would be on this boat near his apartment MULTIPLE numbers of time are a damn dead certainty

i note the only people who are amazed by this are folks who don't gamble

you have no intuitive or experiential sense of what "odds" really means

which is ok, but you're going to get freaked out a lot because you don't know how to calculate odds or what the real odds of common things happening really are

do the birthday problem and get back to me

if atta had never been on the boat, THAT woulda been weird

this is perfectly predictable

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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #147
211. Atta was a "known gambling addict"?
You mean like he was a known cocaine addict?

And a known blonde bimbo addict?

Just wondering ...
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
69. Crook, meet robber.
"Less than two months later, Sun Cruz announced plans to move a 150-foot, $10-million floating casino to the Northern Marianas."

Does the name Mariana's, as in islands ring a bell with anybody here? Anything that starts with a "D" ?
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
70. Atilla the hun sat back on his couch
We were in a stone, wooden room in what is now bavaria, attilla and I.
He was eating a rib, rather sloppily i might add, rather with fast food
manners, shall we say.

Well, after a long belch, i asked atilla the hun, and he said he followed
his instincts on war matters, and no matter the casino boat, the hun is
screwed this lifetime around.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
72. Check this picture out!


Was Monica aboard too?
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Okay, they live in South Florida, the casino is there too
and they went aboard to gamble.

Strange, but not evidence of a conspiracy.

They also bought their plane tickets from computers in Kinkos, do you think Kinkos is also involved somehow?

I'm not one for the "official story", and maybe Abramoff had some part in 9/11? But the fact of their going aboard his casino ship is not evidence of anything other than some Arabs gambling on his boat.

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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Why would anyone planning a suicide want to go gambling?
That makes ZERO sense.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
85. Not allowed by the fundies
nor were the whores the bought.

But I think GW bush conspired with the hijackers through the cia. You know so they could take over Iraq for all the oil they would get. Of course they started years ago framing them for khobar, the cole, bali (where we snuck in a mini nuke) etc. Even faked him on tape and on the sat phone planning to kill americans...

Of course they planned it all to take over america..

oh wait.
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SPKrazy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #77
122. Maybe they figured they were already going to "heaven"
with their 70 virgins, so why not enjoy the sins of the world.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #77
129. There's a lot of evidence that shows that most of the hijackers didn't
know it was a suicide mission. There's also some evidence to show that the leaders didn't know until just before it occurred.

Or, maybe they did know and they just wanted to live it up before they did.

Hijacking four planes and smashing them into crowded buildings, killing thousands of innocent people is hardly sane or logical, so who the hell knows what else they might do that seemed odd?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #77
149. ok, so you don't know what you're talking abt
it may not make any sense to you w. your tiny little neurotypical mind but the fact is people every damn day go out gambling and then shoot themselves just in vegas alone

sheesh

can you be big enough to comprehend that the mind of the gambling addict is not your mind?

maybe if he won megabucks, atta wouldn't have boarded that plane, there are people who think well i'll go and gamble the last of money and if god lets it be taken away from me, THEN i'll kill myself

i've known these people

you don't seriously think atta or any other educated man believes in the 72 virgins, do you?

gambling is real, it is direct and unmediated communication between you and fate, it is how god lets you know that YOU are not special and that only the hard mathematics rule

people go gambling to see if god is going to make them the exception and make them special

god didn't care, atta didn't win the money needed to change his life and run from his handlers

if you think i am just spinning a story, get yr money out, bet money that hurts, invest yrself in this lifestyle for a few years

then you will understand

if the boat was there, if the gambling opportunity was there, he HAD to try, just as he HAD to try that one last time in vegas

god could have spoken by letting him win big, god spoke by reminding him that he was no different from any other piece of crap mortal

people go gambling before committing suicide EVERY DAMN DAY

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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #76
127. EXACTLY. I'm not saying there's no connection, but there's nothing
in this thread or any of the links presented that shows anything more than a coincidence. Saying it proves anything is ludicrous. Saying that it shows that further investigation is needed is logical.
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FreedomAngel82 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
103. Is that her??
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 08:43 PM by FreedomAngel82
Does anybody know? I thought Monica's face was a bit more fuller?
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. Sure looks like her
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
82. This would make them infidels in their own culture.
This is similar to being labeled Anti-American by agents of the shrub administration.

Gambling, Boozing, and visits to the titty bar is not how a fanatic guarantees their passage to heaven; by breaking all the rules.


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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #82
88. You are assuming that the "Atta" we are told about is from a different
culture, point 1. And you are assuming that the 9/11 perps are who WE, the US, says they were.
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #88
119. Oh I don't assume much of anything...
I only need to point to what doesn't make any sense. They acted like frat buddies, not religious zealots.

I assumed all 19 were dead until the FBI, BBC, and MSNBC reported that some had turned up alive and well. Including a phone call from Atta to his father on 9-12-2001.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
84. Were they comped too? n/t
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
90. Ain't the Internet great!
If there is ever an honest government in power that wants to know the truth, 90% of the investigative work has already been done for them for free.

Compare that to the tens of millions that have been spent covering up the crime.
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cyberpj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #90
98. I've been thinking that too. The net has done what investigators used to
There's so much gathered and documented here that all anyone in the position to do something has to do is come looking for it.

and you know what - I believe history will tell this exact story.


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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #90
145. thank GORE he 'INVENTED' the INTERNETs ;-)
is what i always say ;->

peace
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peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
93. A little off topic but...Abramoff likes snipers?
Funneling money to a Jewish sniper school?

Caught this the other day and e-mailed it to Hopsicker to see if he might come up with something.

Might be looking for a needle in a haystack though



Might be worth further investigation.

Wondering if this could be the same "Little Tony Farrari" ?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

Until Malvo left, mother and son seemed to be settling into their new life together in Fort Myers. In August, James signed a year lease on a two-bedroom apartment for $450 a month. Tony Ferrari, the landlord, remembers James as a demanding tenant who, even before she moved in, showed up one day and watched as workers cleaned the carpet and then pointed out where they had missed a spot. Once they settled in, Malvo took an active role and complained about any problems with the unit, Ferrari said.

------snip-------

On Oct. 31, James and Neal were divorced in Lee County Circuit Court. According to the divorce filings, she requested that her name be legally restored to Una Sceon James. Around the same time, James moved out of the apartment without giving notice. She broke the year-long lease and left behind her $300 deposit, said the landlord, Ferrari. In the three or so months that James and Malvo lived in the building, on Broadway Avenue just south of downtown, Ferrari did not recall ever seeing anyone there who matched the description of Muhammad.


----------------------------------------------

I've often wondered if the Beltway Sniper incident was a product of a clandestine operation, mind control (Sembler)
:tinfoilhat:
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peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. also...antigua
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 08:23 PM by peanutbrittle
is a haven for internet & other gambling activity. abramoff ties to antigua?
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peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. 47-year old Linda Franklin, an FBI intelligence analyst
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peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #95
104. delete n/t
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 08:48 PM by peanutbrittle
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OneTwentyoNine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
102. Well,well well......the NOOSE gets a bit tighter. BUMP!!! n/t
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Dongfang Hong Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
105. Well, until I see it in a source slightly more trustworthy than
Mad Cow Morning News, I would say "simply to drive the tinfoil brigade mad."

The only credible source for the claim that the men were certainly on the boat is the AP quote "Names on the passenger list from a Sept. 5 cruise matched those of some of the hijackers." Now, this alone is not impressive. I know several people of mideast descent who enjoy gambling. One is named Hassan Ahmed, sharing two names with one of the hijackers. My uncle is named Francis P. Kelly, as is my grandfather. Both are on terrorist watchlists because they share that name with an IRA bomber. Many, many people share names. The fact that the FBI wanted to know if a certain gambler was the same man as a certain hijacker does not mean they were the same thing. Indeed, the fact that there is no further inquiry about this implies that it is not.

Atta went through Vegas, yes. That is well-known. So what? It does not mean the man was a gambler. Perhaps it was cheaper to do a layover. Perhaps he decided to see the most sinful city in the sinful nation he was about to strike a blow against, just so he could know how great an evil he was fighting. Perhaps he was visiting a sleeper cell we are still unaware of. The notion that a Salafi would secretly be a gambler is ridiculous.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. Maybe you could read the ENTIRE thread before poo-pooing the OP?
Also, do you HONESTLY believe that this CORRUPT repuke administration, who more than likely was involved in 911, is going to turn over ANY credible evidence of their players being on that ship? Those pictures and that info is loooooooooooooooong gone, I'm sure. They sure as hell aren't going to tell US the truth.
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Dongfang Hong Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #111
113. I did.
And nobody adequately refuted the simple point that the entire case is based around a common coincidence.

And by the way, using the claim that the administration was involved in 9/11 as support of an article implying the administration was involved in 9/11 is not valid. I cannot prove that it was not a simple coincidence. But seeing as such coincidences happen all the time--and usually amount to nothing--it is not a case for a story.

You certainly recall the FL voter-roll-blacklist scandal. People with names similar to convicted felons were barred from voting. Tens of thousands of them. Is it so difficult to believe that people with similar names to terrorists might exist, have lives of their own, and even enjoy a hand of poker or a spin of the slots? My friend who I already mentioned, Hassan Ahmed, would certainly have provoked interest if he had been on that ship. But he is not a terrorist, nor is he a Republican.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. Don't let the name put you off. They've done some incredible work.
At least don't judge them until you've read some of their research:

http://www.madcowprod.com/archive.html
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Dongfang Hong Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #112
116. I won't discredit them because of the name,
but I will believe they require a higher burden of proof than, say, the NYT with its century of credibility behind it. I won't dismiss their claims out-of-hand, but I will require that they back their research up with credible, verifiable sources for me to believe them.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #116
173. I'm sorry, but did you just hold up the NYT as a measure
of research "with credible, verifiable sources" or is it just getting late and I'm misreading?
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Dongfang Hong Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #173
200. Yes.
They are largely credible, with only a few past missteps. Previous problems have been corrected, I believe. That's the thing about things like the NYT. Every organization makes mistakes. It's only ones like the NYT that are made to correct them and fix systematic problems.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #200
204. NYT failure to cover the voting irregularities story and failure to
cover a number of important 9/11 stories show the "Gray Lady" has blinders on.

I've lost respect for her. And I disagree absolutely with your assertion that
only organizations like the NYT can correct mistakes and fix systemic problems.
Hopsicker as a lone gun personally bears the consequences of all mistakes, and
can all on his own fix problems overnight.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #105
124. IMHO Hopsicker is way more credible
Edited on Mon Jan-02-06 10:38 PM by JohnyCanuck
and has brought more to light about the background of Atta and the hijackers including details on Atta's very non-Islamic type behaviour (considering he was supposed to be a fanatical Muslim terrorist) than you would find out in a hundred years by following the lamestream corporate media whores and talking airheads.


Welcome to Terrorland: What was Mohamed Atta really doing in Florida?

Daniel Hopsickers new book Welcome to Terrorland: Mohamed Atta and the 9-11 Cover-Up in Florida goes where the 9/11 Commission dares not look.

Hopsicker is a former NBC News producer who spent two years in Venice, Florida researching Huffman Aviation, the school that trained 9/11 pilots Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi. Hopsickers investigation connects this Florida flight school to a series of shadowy international figures. In Welcome to Terrorland, not only does Hopsicker exclusively interview Attas American girlfriend, he finds reason to believe that the FBI is covering up key aspects to the 9/11 story.

Hopsicker reports that flight school owner Wally Hilliard has a series of strange connections to rich and powerful players. Hilliards history as a businessman links him to Silverado Resorts Myron DuBain (who hosted the Bushes, Rumsfeld and Ollie North) and John McCone, director of the CIA under JFK and Johnson. Hilliard bought a plane from Truman Arnold (the Clinton fund-raiser who sold visits to the Lincoln bedroom) for only one dollar. Hilliard also got stiffed on a major loan to Jerry Falwell. Hopsicker points out: Hilliards plane was busted with 43 pounds of heroin in Orlando the same month Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi arrived at his school in Venice, Florida. According to Hopsickers sources in Virginia and Florida, Hilliard had a green light from the DEA.

GNN contributor Sander Hicks recently talked with Hopsicker for the INN World Report (seen on Free Speech TV, Channel 9415, DiSHNetwork) about the flight school mysteries, Attas very un-suicide-bomber-like behavior, and the allegations that the FBI was engaged in a cover-up:

Transcript of interview follows at:

http://gnn.tv/articles/163/Guerrilla_of_the_Week



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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #124
161. lamestream media.
:rofl: I like it. In fact it's good enough I might start listening to all those "don't call it MSM" people now that I have a good substitute.

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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #161
168. I can't take credit for it myself.



I saw someone else using it, probably on DU, and started using it too.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #105
134. Ni Hao, Dongfang Hong! Welcome to DU!
I too was skeptical about Daniel Hopsicker's work because he reported things
that nobody else reported. But after watching some of his videos here:

http://www.madcowprod.com /

and his talks here:

http://www.911busters.com/SanFran04/index.html

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt until he proves he's not worthy of it.
The man does the legwork that nobody else is willing to do. He tracked down Atta's
girlfriend. Joseph Cannon vouches for him, and I have no reason to think Cannon lies, either.


As to Vegas, that some of the hijackers took six trips there and that they were conspicuously
patronizing the attractions is well established by credible sources.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronic...

Other places where these supposed "fanatical muslims" were seen include strip clubs in Florida,
Nardone's Go-Go Bar in Elizabeth, NJ, and Cheetah's, a nude bar in San Diego.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?se...








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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #105
148. welcome to DU
you will learn a LOT about 911 that hasn't been discussed much in our M$M. This is just 1 of the many strange 'coincidences' and out right lies from the neoCONs surrounding that horrid day.

the biggest lie is that america was under attack for almost 2 hours and not a single jet fighter was able to intervene even after all the serious warnings.

you can start your education here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

psst... pass the word :hi:

peace
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #105
188. So the issue is not wether or nor Atta was on that casino boat,
nor what Abramoff's connection to that casino boat is/was. Hopsicker doesn't do much more then pointing out those facts.

The question is how likely it is that those facts are coincidence.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
114. I see people are FINALLY starting to put it together.
Able Danger people.


Repeat: Able Danger
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
121. This is, well...
I'm speechless. It's all falling into place now.

Just Wow and pure sadness is all I can think to relate. Hope the house of Jack falls along w/*&CO!
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
131. Why would one gamble (and try to win I assume) when they are going to die
the next day or soon thereafter? If you win, where is the fun in it :)
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #131
136. Oh you know how those crazy, fundamentalist, Islamic types are,
always looking for another opportunity to party and have a good time.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #131
151. jeez see my post above
if you don't know what you're talking abt, maybe stop talking for a moment

gambling is unmediated communication between self and destiny or god

if atta had won big money, maybe 9-11 wouldn't have happened, maybe he woulda run off to tahiti somewhere

the fact that god turned his back, god didn't care, god wouldn't change the hard laws of math and let him win life changing heaps and piles of cash which god being god could have v. easily done...you might as well die, there is no god, and everything you gave your life to is a lie

gambling is a test if you bet enough money


most people, quite sensibly, refuse to take the test, they know in their heart there is no god to catch them when they fall

a fundy half-believes his own bullshit
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #151
154. And do you half believe yours :) (nt)
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leeroysphitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
132. Why do I feel so little shock at something that should be truly
surpising? Murder will out they say.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
137. gambling addicts who lived in florida
it would have been weirder if they hadn't been on the boat, sorry
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #137
150. Except that gambling is prohibited as an abomination by the Quran.
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 12:57 AM by JohnyCanuck

When Islam came, it described the evils of gambling in the most effective language and prohibited it for the Muslims.

"O you who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, sacrificing to stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that you may prosper."

Gambling is mentioned in the Quran, alongside drinking alcohol as an abomination, a sin, and a grave harm to mankind. It was made clear that prosperity does not come through gambling. That gambling, among many other things, causes families to break, societies to suffer, and the economy to deteriorate, damaging and ruining the ethical foundation of any decent society.

http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/food/islam_gambling....


Not that Mohamed Atta allowed religious restrictions against womanizing, taking drugs, drinking alcohol and eating pork cramp his life style while living with the infidels.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Considering that we've been assured by the powers that be that these were supposed to be Muslim fundamentalist terrorists, some of us find it just a bit strange that fundamentalist Muslims about to meet Allah in person didn't seem too concerned about defiling themselves by engaging in all sorts of un-Islamic behavior hours before presenting themselves at the Islamic equivalent of the pearly gates and requesting admittance.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #150
152. and yr point is what?
gambling is an abomination for baptists too

do you know WHY it's an abomination?

it's because gambling is unmediated communication between you and god, and fundies can't have that

gambling puts you toe to toe w. god or destiny, no excuses

gambling teaches you that god is dead or just doesn't care but you have the most direct experience possible that no one is up there in the sky to catch you when you fall

gambling teaches you that the only reality is the mathematical reality

plenty of people who face the cold equations decide death is preferable, and if their suicide can be a legend instead of just tacky, hey, why not

this thread is wild, do regular people really have this little knowledge of the gut-in-gods-hands that gambling has on people?

all fundies sex and gamble, you HAVE to, if god is there, you HAVE to communicate with him and he ain't got no cell phone

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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #152
163. Too be honest, sounds to me like you are talking a bunch of psycho babble
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 01:24 AM by JohnyCanuck
but I really don't mind because each time you post to this thread it gets bounced back to the top and more DUers and lurkers, some of whom might never have heard about Daniel Hopsicker before or his investigative journalism surrounding the strange goings on with the 9/11 hijackers and the terrorists' flight school owners in Florida, will get a chance to learn about him, check out his web site at www.madcowprod.com , and make up their own minds as to whether or not his research and investigative work can be discounted out of hand or whether it should be followed up on and taken into account when deciding whether or not to accept the official US government conspiracy theory we are supposed to believe.
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stickdog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #152
212. Where in the hell did you get the idea that Atta was a "known gambling
addict"?

Just wondering ...
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sweetm2475 Donating Member (523 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
143. HOLY CRAP!!!
The drip drip of condemning info. never ends with these pigs.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
153. Raising the money for their plane tickets, what else?
And I guess they did pretty well!

There's always a perfectly reasonable explanation for every bizarre 9-11 revelation.

:sarcasm:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #153
162. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #162
167. Molten metal? Not a problem.
See, there's the caldroun effect, and then there was this tremendous energy from the natural collapse, and of course there was all that jet fuel, and since the NIST didn't mention it let's not worry about it!
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Independent_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:07 AM
Response to Original message
156. BCCI II?
This is interesting. Thanks for posting this.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #156
159. And thanks to DU for letting it be seen by so many here in Discussion.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #159
164. another thing I'm interested in
is Gen. Malmoud (sp) from Pakistan who was in Washington on 9/11--later it was discovered that he gave Atta $100,000. Now what was that all about? Then, this administration forgave Pakistan's debt to the US. What sort of wheeling and dealing is going on and why?
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #164
165. Yes, I've never forgotten that one, whom he met with that week and day.
He's the key to the official conspiracy since he was the money man and he was meeting with all the key people in Washington that week.
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TeeYiYi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #164
170. Details . . .
Carefully Planned Intelligence Operation

The 9-11 terrorists did not act on their own volition. The suicide hijackers were instruments in a carefully planned intelligence operation. The evidence confirms that Al Qaeda is supported by Pakistan's military intelligence, the Inter-services Intelligence (ISI). Amply documented, the ISI owes its existence to the CIA:

"With CIA backing and the funnelling of massive amounts of U.S. military aid, the ISI developed into a parallel structure wielding enormous power over all aspects of government....The ISI had a staff composed of military and intelligence officers, bureaucrats, undercover agents and informers estimated at 150,000."8

The ISI actively collaborates with the CIA. It continues to perform the role of a go-between' in numerous intelligence operations on behalf of the CIA. The ISI directly supports and finances a number of terrorist organizations, including Al Qaeda.

The Missing Link

The FBI confirmed in late September, in an interview with ABC News (which went virtually unnoticed) that the 9-11 ring leader, Mohammed Atta, had been financed from unnamed sources in Pakistan:

"As to September 11th, federal authorities have told ABC News they have now tracked more than $100,000 from banks in Pakistan, to two banks in Florida, to accounts held by suspected hijack ring leader, Mohammed Atta. As well . . . "Time Magazine" is reporting that some of that money came in the days just before the attack and can be traced directly to people connected to Osama bin Laden. It's all part of what has been a successful FBI effort so far to close in on the hijacker's high commander, the money men, the planners and the mastermind."9

The FBI had information on the money trail. They knew exactly who was financing the terrorists. Less than two weeks later, the findings of the FBI were confirmed by Agence France Presse (AFP) and the Times of India, quoting an official Indian intelligence report (which had been dispatched to Washington). According to these two reports, the money used to finance the 9-11 attacks had allegedly been "wired to WTC hijacker Mohammed Atta from Pakistan, by Ahmad Umar Sheikh, at the instance of General Mahmoud ." 10 According to the AFP (quoting the intelligence source):

"The evidence we have supplied to the U.S. is of a much wider range and depth than just one piece of paper linking a rogue general to some misplaced act of terrorism." 11

Pakistan's Chief Spy Visits Washington

Now, it just so happens that General Mahmoud Ahmad, the alleged "money man" behind 9-11, was in the U.S. when the attacks occurred. He arrived on the 4th of September, one week before 9-11, on what was described as a routine visit of consultations with his U.S. counterparts. According to Pakistani journalist, Amir Mateen (in a prophetic article published on September 10):

"ISI Chief Lt-Gen. Mahmoud's week-long presence in Washington has triggered speculation about the agenda of his mysterious meetings at the Pentagon and National Security Council. Officially, he is on a routine visit in return to CIA Director George Tenet's earlier visit to Islamabad. Official sources confirm that he met Tenet this week. He also held long parleys with unspecified officials at the White House and the Pentagon. But the most important meeting was with Marc Grossman, U.S. Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs. One can safely guess that the discussions must have centred around Afghanistan . . . and Osama bin Laden. What added interest to his visit is the history of such visits. Last time Ziauddin Butt, Mahmoud's predecessor, was here, during Nawaz Sharif's government, the domestic politics turned topsy-turvy within days." 12

Nawaz Sharif was overthrown by General Pervez Musharaf. General Mahmoud Ahmad, who became the head of the ISI, played a key role in the military coup.

Schedule of Pakistan's Chief of Military Intelligence Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad, Washington, 4-13 September 2001

Summer 2001: ISI Chief Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad transfers $100,000 to 9-11 Ringleader Mohamed Atta.

4 September: Ahmad arrives in the US on an official visit.

4-9 September: He meets his US counterparts including CIA Head George Tenet.

9 September: Assassination of General Massood, leader of the Northern Alliance. Official statement by Northern Alliance points to involvement of the ISI-Osama-Taliban axis.

11 September: Terrorist Attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon. At the time of the attacks, Lt General Ahmad was at a breakfast meeting at the Capitol with the chairmen of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees Sen Bob Graham and Rep Porter Goss. Also present at the meeting were Sen. John Kyl and the Pakistani ambassador to the U.S., Maleeha Lodhi.

12-13 September: Meetings between Lt. General Ahmad and Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Agreement on Pakistan's collaboration negotiated between Ahmad and Armitage. Meeting between General Ahmad and Secretary of State Colin Powell

13 September: Ahmad meets Senator Joseph Biden, Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO206A.html

TYY
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #170
208. I wonder what this Mahmoud's $100,000 to Atta was FOR?
If it was largely transferred to Atta's bank accounts in the days before 9/11--which I gather is the case--Atta & Co. were preparing to die (according to the official story), so what use was this money to them?

Anyone know if Atta & Co. then sent the money somewhere (f.i., to families*)? Because, it they didn't, then one can only conclude that they did not know that they were on a suicide mission. Assuming they didn't know, then the money may have been a payoff (although it doesn't seem large enough--partial payment? more to come?), or escape money. Sounds kind of like the supposed hijackers needed to SEE the money; needed to be assured of payment, before they took their next instructions. And if these guys were truly Islamic fanatics (assuming that their lapdances, drinking and gambling was cover of some sort), wouldn't they be doing it for Allah, not for money? Could it be that these guys were just maybe common gangsters or soldiers of fortune, who were ignorantly setting out a trail of breadcrumbs, as per instruction (and payments)--a fairy tale of jihad to be told to a traumatized and gullible public, and to throw off any honest investigators?

*(If the money was then transferred to accounts in Islamic countries--well, I wonder what the story was on the other end. Clues to their real identities? Were such transfers, if they occurred, ever followed up? What happened to this money, after they all died? I haven't followed this part of the story on investigative web sites, so these questions are asked in ignorance, and may already be answered.)
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #159
176. Hear, hear! And thanks to all the people who shared their
insight who were not the "usual suspects" from the 9/11 board.

The broad base of 9/11 scholars has got to be impressing the mods.
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paulthompson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
171. Here's my 9/11 timeline entry on the matter
September 5, 2001
Hijackers Go on Gambling Cruise in Florida
Two or three of the 9/11 hijackers are believed to go out on a gambling cruise ship that sails from Madeira Beach, Florida. According to a company official of SunCruz Casinos, who owns the ship, there are passengers on two of their cruises today who look like some of the men later identified as 9/11 hijackers, and whose names are either similar or the same as the hijackers'. In the days after 9/11, some of the cruise employees recognize a number of the hijackers as former customers. A casino manager on another SunCruz ship that sails from Port Canaveral, Florida, later believes that a former customer, caught on security video, resembles one of the hijackers. According to Michael Hlavsa, chairman of SunCruz Casinos, the hijackers “acted just like normal guests of ours and they were courteous.” Following 9/11, SunCruz turns over photographs and documents to FBI investigators. (St. Petersburg Times, 9/27/01; Associated Press, 9/27/01; Washington Post, 9/27/01 (D)) At the time, SunCruz Casinos is owned by Adam Kidan, a friend and business associate of lobbyist Jack Abramoff. A questionable $23 million transaction relating to SunCruz will later lead to a Justice Department investigation of Kidan, Abramoff, and others. (Washington Post, 1/1/06)

---

I think it's fairly certain that a couple hijackers went on this cruise; it's less certain if one of them was Atta. Hopsicker has some evidence to that effect, but there's nothing in the mainstream media mentioning Atta.

I think it's a stretch to find anything significant about this hijacker-Abramoff connection since there's no evidence yet that the hijackers were anything more than typical gamblers. But still, it's interesting, especially since it happened so soon before 9/11. All the hijackers were very busy by then, and it would be hard to see how they had a day to waste. Esp. if it turns out one of the hijackers was Atta - he had an insanely full schedule of things to do by then.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #171
175. So Abramoff's friend owned SunCruz at the time, not Abromoff?
That contradicts what Hopsicker says in the OP. That's a petty important detail. Are you sure?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #175
179. No, Kidan and Abramoff bought Sun Cruz in Sept 2000
Gus Boulis's was murdered on Feb. 6, 2001.

Try again.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #179
209. Then Paul's timeline needs to be revised?
At the time, SunCruz Casinos is owned by Adam Kidan, a friend and business associate of lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

Something's wrong here. Or have I misunderstood something?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #209
210. Kidan was the President
Abramoff was the VP
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MrSammo1 Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
177. Maybe Atta's
a conservative neocon?

;o)

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Free the Press Donating Member (195 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
178. kamikazes? mujahideen? suicide bombers? soldiers of fortune?
Are the psychological profiles on these seemingly unrelated breeds of militants substantially different?

If so, then what is the least common denominator and what sets them apart?

There was a timely white paper. It correctly predicted that almost fully fueled passenger jets would soon be used by terrorists for attacks over American soil with high numbers of casualties and large scale destruction of property?

A domestic think tank's website was the source of this white paper. It was unequivocally linked to by the globalsecurity(dot)org website at some time in October 2000.

Where is it now?
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greiner3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
181. WTF? n/t
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ObaMania Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
182. This is HUGH!!1!!111
:kick:
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peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
184. Don't forget HOW they may have come into the country
As far as I can tell this case has been granted appeal?

It would appear, much like Sibel Edmonds this woman has been gagged. See the document dated March of 2005.

MARY SCHNEIDER,

Appellant,

v.

DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY,

Agency.


DOCKET Number

AT-0752-03-0875-I-1

DATE: March 30, 2005

http://www.mspb.gov/decisions/2005/schneider_at030875i1...


&


Whistleblower

FACT: Prior Knowledge of 9-11

Federal Whistleblower on
Extensive TREASONOUS Briberies
and Cover Up Conspiracies
Feds Aiding and Abetting Illegal Muslims
The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals will hear public oral argument in

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/WTC_whistleblower.htm



If true this one is too hot to handle. I e-mailed Hopsicker regarding this, but no reply. Maybe he will follow up with something.

Her original site has been taken down just within the last 2 weeks

http://www.maryschneider.us/index.php



Putting this on my watch list


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yy4me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
187. How many dots must we connect before the page is
completely filled. Every day, coincidences and obvious connections, more lies, more over-ups. Pretty soon the whole page of connect-the-dots will be full. It will be so black we won't be able to connect anything. By then, its too late. Hey Congress, Where are you????? IMPEACHMENT, TRIAL, CONVICTION!
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
189. so did this thing ever make it to the DU front page?
i suppose we should be happy it stayed in GD as long as it did.
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #189
193. At least it was kept pretty much in the first page of GD
all day yesterday (Jan 02) and got up to the top of the "Greatest List", thanks to all the recommendations.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #193
197. Can't recommend anymore. Mods, come on! This censorship is very UN-DU.
Let the sun shine. The truth will out.
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Dongfang Hong Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #197
201. This is where the topic belongs.
It's a 9/11 conspiracy theory. Doesn't mean it's false because of that (I find it false for other reasons) but it is a conspiracy theory all the same.

And DU is actually quite censor-heavy. It's a great forum, but it's also very unforgiving. I'm surprised you believe it isn't.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
205. If you were planning the biggest conspiracy in history--the 9/11 attack--
Edited on Tue Jan-03-06 03:03 PM by Peace Patriot
you wouldn't put a gambling addict--or any kind of addict--in charge of the entire operation on US soil. That makes no sense (if Atta & Co. were in fact in charge of the planning).*

If Atta & Co. were the real planners in the US*, then it seems likely that they were not gambling addicts, but were using casinos to conduct some kind of transactions related to their grand scheme--things that had to be done through a criminal syndicate of some kind, that routinely deals with illicit drugs, weapons, money laundering, forged documents (such as passports), and so forth.

If this is the case--that the 9/11 hijackers were making certain underground connections at casinos--I would think they would make an effort to behave normally--gambling and ogling naked women just like any other customers--and not be holding open meetings with their connections. The casual observer would not notice anything out of the ordinary, just that they were customers.

And the "coincidence" that they showed up on the casino boat of a major Republican criminal is a bit much to leave alone. In fact, it would be unreasonable to leave it alone, and it is a quite reasonable working hypothesis that something took place there with regard to 9/11 planning--something of such great interest to the FBI (at this point possibly controlled by Bush & Co.) that they confiscated all records of it, which records have not seen the light of day since then. (It is not a safe assumption at all that an agency under Bush regime control would abandon a 9/11 lead for an appropriate reason--for instance, that there was nothing to it. Every action of the gov't with regard to 9/11 needs to reviewed with the utmost suspicion. There is just too much evidence of insider cooperation to do otherwise.)

A WORKING HYPOTHESIS is not a conclusion. Working hypotheses are always based on educated guesses. They are not solid, by their nature. They are a way of organizing and understanding information. And if the hypothesis turns out to be wrong, you discard it. And by pursuing such an hypothesis, even if it turns out to be wrong, you may discover OTHER leads by which you amend the hypothesis or formulate a new one.

I don't know what's been done with regard to possible connections among the various casinos and nightclubs that this crew visited prior to 9/11. I certainly think that they should be vetted for criminal operations they may have in common, and for connections to Abramoff.

--------

*An alternative hypothesis is that the master planner or planners were in fact deliberately using drug, alcohol, gambling and/or sex addicts (and sinful Muslims), because they were manipulable. Their addictions made them more amenable to suggestion? More bribable? Less likely to ask questions? More likely to be led around by the nose, doing whatever they were told, no matter how strange? This hypothesis would point more to the hijackers being patsies--being pawns of some kind. As understandinglife has suggested, above, after laying out this mile wide trail all over the country--pointing to themselves--their instruction (for the grand payoff) may have been to kill the pilots of the 9/11 commercial jets, terrify and silence the passengers, and put the planes on autopilot, to be steered to their destinations by remote control. In this case, Atta & Co. may not have realized that they were on a suicide mission--but may have thought, rather, that it was some kind of extortion scheme. This hypothesis fits better than any other with their poor performance at the flight schools. Both of these working hypotheses remain viable--the first, that they were visiting casinos to launder money or make some other kind of connections, and participated in the local entertainment as cover, and the second, that they were not the real planners of 9/11 but rather its pawns and patsies, and were being manipulated at least in part by their addictions. A mixed hypothesis could also be true--that they were pawns with certain addictions (and not the real planners of 9/11), who visited casinos and bars both to satisfy their addictions and to make underground connections in a plot that they only partially understood.
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QuettaKid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-03-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #205
207. I seem to recall reports in the first
few days after 9/11 in the MSM where they made repeated references to the fact that some of the hijackers might not have known they were on a suicide mission. I think your hypotheses is vary plausible.
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bronco2121 Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-04-06 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
213. this IS the story
this is the story. and this is the only place (that i know of) on the internet that is freely talking about the abramoff & atta connection. which begs the question: where are we?

i hope it's that we're too busy researching and connecting the dots. otherwise, i'd expect this forum to lit up like the white house holiday tree. so my faith is that we're out-there looking for the hard evidence that will link these two characters in a way that the MSM can't ignore.

can ya taste it?

B.
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