Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

LIHOP or MIHOP question and who hit us.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU
 
warrior1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 12:24 PM
Original message
LIHOP or MIHOP question and who hit us.
That fine line.

Right after we were attacked, Richard Clarke noted in his book that they wanted to find a reason to attack Iraq or to blame them for the attack. Not word for word but bush insisted he go back and link Iraq to 9/11, which he couldn't.

If they did allow it to happen then wouldn't they have planted the evidence of Saddam attacking us better?

If they made it happened same question.

That didn't happened. Not for them not trying. Yet we went to Iraq anyway.

I do believe that they LIHOP and the video Loose Change has made me question that belief to the stronger MIHOP. But I have to get pass these questions I have to get to where we are today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-04-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. IMHO they really tried to link to Iraq but it didn't stick.
They jumped right on the intel on the Prague meeting between Al Qaeda and Iraqi officials. They pushed that from the get go but it was proved to be false. There were probably other efforts that didn't work out either. Much of what has transpired since - not the least of which is the Plame affair - seems to point to a power struggle within the intelligence agencies between those loyal to the Neo Con agenda and those opposed to it. This power struggle could possibly have resulted in the thwarting of administration efforts to plant false intelligence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kevin Fenton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-05-05 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. I ask myself the same question
"If they did allow it to happen then wouldn't they have planted the evidence of Saddam attacking us better?"
Yes, I think they would. Or they would have fingered another good country to invade, like Iran. There's Scottish Football Association in Afghanistan and there's no way to hold it.

However, this doesn't mean the WTC wasn't blown up or Rummy did a good job on 9/11.

In The Price of Loyalty Paul O'Niell (sec. of the treasury) said that at the very first NSC meeting in January 2001 they had already decided to invade Iraq and that they were just looking for an excuse. Apparently Rummy suggested escalating an incident in the no-fly zone involving an exchange of fire between a US fighter and an Iraqi ground battery. If Rummy thought that was all it would take in January, why bother with the complicated 9/11 false-flag scenario in September?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
atfqn Donating Member (154 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. In answer to your question
"If Rummy thought that was all it would take in January, why bother with the complicated 9/11 false-flag scenario in September?"

My vote is for recruitment. Face it as a nation we love to hate. We just needed a target. Get everyone riled up and looking for an unseen enemy and by doing so you not only get the new recruits but also this famed "political capital." Shrug...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 01:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. Maybe we need to work backwards. Where ARE we today?
Yes, yes, we are in Iraq, but was the invasion of Iraq the only reason behind 9/11?


U.S. Command Declares Global Strike Capability
By David Ruppe
Global Security Newswire

WASHINGTON (12/3)Ñ The U.S. Strategic Command announced yesterday it had achieved an operational capability for rapidly striking targets around the globe using nuclear or conventional weapons, after last month testing its capacity for nuclear war against a fictional country believed to represent North Korea (see GSN, Oct. 21).

In a press release yesterday, STRATCOM said a new Joint Functional Component Command for Space and Global Strike on Nov. 18 "met requirements necessary to declare an initial operational capability."

The requirements were met, it said, "following a rigorous test of integrated planning and operational execution capabilities during Exercise Global Lightning."

The annual Global Lightning exercise last month tested U.S. strategic warfare capabilities, including the so-called CONPLAN 8022 mission for a global strike, according to publicly available military documents.

>more at link<


The military of the United States of America now has the ultimate high ground: Space. From this, and as a direct result of Bush's policies, it can now launch a first strike, including a nuclear first strike, against any perceived or stated enemy. In chapter 10, "Possible Motives Of The Bush Administration," of his book, The 9/11 Commission Report: Omission & Distortions, David Griffin includes in his list of motives:


Generating Funds For The US Space Command

One dimension of the "revolution in military affairs" discussed in the PNAC document is so important as to deserve separate treatment. This dimension is the militarization of space, which is now the province of a new branch of the American military, the US Space Command.

The purpose of this branch is to bring about "full spectrum dominance." The idea is that the US military, with its air force, army, and navy, is already dominant in the air and on land and sea. The US Space Command will now ensure dominance in space. "Vision for 2020," a document published by the US Space Command, puts it thus: "The emerging synergy of space superiority with land, sea, and air superiority, will lead to Full Spectrum Dominance."

The government's description of spending for the US Space Command as spending for "missile defense" makes its mission sound purely defensive-augmenting "homeland security" by defending the United States from missile attacks. The mission statement in "Vision for 2020," however, states: "U.S. Space Command-dominating the space dimension of military operations to protect US interests and investment." Its primary purpose, in other words, is not to protect the American homeland but to protect American investments abroad. Such protection will be needed, it says, because "(t)he globalization of the world economy will continue with a widening between 'haves' and 'have-nots.'" The mission of the US Space Command, it is clear, is to protect the American "haves" from the world's "Have-nots," as American-led globalization leaves these "have-nots" with even less.

The 9/11 Commission, however, makes no mention of the US Space Command's program and mission. To understand the full significance of this omission, it is necessary to understand that its program involves three parts. The first part involves space-based surveillance technology, through which US military leaders can identify enemies of US forces anywhere on the planet.

The second part involves putting up space weapons, such as laser cannons, with which the United States will be able to destroy the satellites of other countries. "Vision for 2020" frankly states its desire to be able "to deny others the use of space."

The third part of the program is usually called, the "missile defense shield," but its purpose, like that of the first two parts, is offensive.

As Rebuilding America's Defenses said (in a passage called "a remarkable admission" by Rahul Mahajan):

In the post-Cold-War era. America and its allies...have become the primary objects of deterrence and it is states like Iraq, Iran and North Korea who most wish to develop deterrent capabilities. Projecting conventional military forces... will be far more complex and constrained when the American homeland...is subject to attack by otherwise weak rogue regimes capable of cobbling together a minuscule ballistic missile force. Building an effective...system of missile defenses is a prerequisite for maintaining American preeminence.


The purpose of the "missile defense shield," in other words, is not to deter other countries from launching a first strike against the United States. Its purpose is to prevent other countries from being able to deter the United States from launching a first strike against them.

The major impediment to making this program operational is that it will be extremely expensive. According to one expert, it will require over $1 trillion from American taxpayers. The difficulty of getting Congress and the American people to pony up was the main reason fro the PNAC document's statement that the desired transformation will take a long time "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event-like a New Pearl Harbor."

In omitting any mention of this project for achieving global domination, therefore, the 9/11 Commission omitted a project so big that some of its backers, we can imagine, may have been able to rationalize an attack taking a few thousand American lives, if such an attack seemed necessary to get adequate funding for this project.

Donald Rumsfeld, as we saw, was a member of PNAC when it produced its document. He was also chairman of the Commission to Assess US National Security Space Management and Organization. The task of this commission-commonly known as the "Rumsfeld Commission"-was to make proposals with regard to the US Space Command. After making various proposals that would "increase the asymmetry between U.S. forces and those of other military powers," the Rumsfeld Commission Report said that, because its proposals would cost a lot of money and involve significant reorganization, they would probably encounter strong resistance. But, the report-which was issued January 7, 2001-said:

The question is whether the U.S. will be wise enough to act responsibly and soon enough to reduce U.S. space vulnerability. Or whether, as in the past, a disabling attack against the country and its people-a "Space Pearl Harbor"-will be the only event able to galvanize the nation and cause the U.S. Government to act.


In speaking of a "Space Pearl Harbor," the report meant an attack on its military satellites in space. The 9/11 attacks were obviously not of this nature. It is interesting, nevertheless, that only a few months after PNAC had issued its statement about "a new Pearl Harbor," the Rumsfeld Commission also pointed out that a Pearl Harbor type of attack might be needed to "galvanize the nation."

When the new Pearl Harbor came, Rumsfeld, having been made secretary of defense, was in position to use it to get more money for the US Space Command. Before TV cameras on the evening of 9/11 itself, Rumsfeld said to Senator Carl Levin, then chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee:

Senator Levin, you and other Democrats in Congress have voiced fear that you simply don't have enough money for the large increase in defense that the Pentagon is seeking, especially for missile defense...Does this sort of thing convince you that an emergency exists in this country to increase defense spending, to dip into Social Security, if necessary, to pay for defense spending-increase defense spending. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/dod_brief02.htm


Earlier that day, the Pentagon, which by then had been under Rumsfeld's leadership for almost seven months, failed to prevent airplane attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon itself. Now that very evening Rumsfeld was using the success of those attacks to get more money from Congress for the Pentagon and, in particular, for the US Space Command. One might think that this rather remarkable coincidence would have gotten the attention of the 9/11 Commission, because it suggests that the secretary of defense may not have wanted to prevent this "new Pearl Harbor." But the Commission's report, focusing exclusively on al-Qaeda terrorists, makes no mention of this possible motive.

Rumsfeld was, moreover, not the only person highly committed to promoting the US Space Command who was in charge of military affairs on 9/11. Another was General Ralph E. Eberhart, the current head of the US Space Command, who is also the commander of NORAD. General Richard Myers, the former head of the US Space Command, was on 9/11 the Acting Chariman of the Joint Chiefs Of Staff.

A truly "independent" and "impartial" commission would surely comment on this remarkable coincidence-that three of the men in charge of the US military response on 9/11 were outspoken advocates of the US Space Command, that the US military under their control failed to prevent the attacks, and that one of these men then used the success of the attacks to obtain billions of dollars more for this branch of the military.

Coincidence does not, of course, prove complicity. Sometimes when events coincide in an improbable way, the coincidence is exactly what the term has generally come to mean; simply coincidental. It is well know, however, that after a crime the first question to be asked is cui bono?-who benefits? A truly independent commission would at least have proceeded on the assumption that Rumsfeld, Myers, and Eberhart had to be regarded as possible suspects, whose actions that day were to be rigorously investigated. Instead, the testimonies of these three men were treated as unquestionable sources of truth as to what really happened-despite, as we will see later, the contradictions in their stories.


Besides Myers and Eberhart, the other two gentlemen who would necessarily had to have known are Cheney and Rumsfeld. They have been deeply imbedded within the national security state apparatus since the Reagan administration:


From The Armagedon Plan
Rumsfeld and Cheney were principal actors in one of the most highly classified programs of the Reagan Administration. Under it U.S. officials furtively carried out detailed planning exercises for keeping the federal government running during and after a nuclear war with the Soviet Union.

>snip<

Ronald Reagan established the continuity-of-government program with a secret executive order. According to Robert McFarlane, who served for a time as Reagan's National Security Adviser, the President himself made the final decision about who would head each of the three teams. Within Reagan's National Security Council the "action officer" for the secret program was Oliver North, later the central figure in the Iran-contra scandal. Vice President George H.W. Bush was given the authority to supervise some of these efforts, which were run by a new government agency with a bland name: the National Program Office. It had its own building in the Washington area, run by a two-star general, and a secret budget adding up to hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Much of this money was spent on advanced communications equipment that would enable the teams to have secure conversations with U.S. military commanders. In fact, the few details that have previously come to light about the secret program, primarily from a 1991 CNN investigative report, stemmed from allegations of waste and abuses in awarding contracts to private companies, and claims that this equipment malfunctioned.

The exercises were usually scheduled during a congressional recess, so that Cheney would miss as little work on Capitol Hill as possible.

>snip<

There things stood until September 11, 2001, when Cheney and Rumsfeld suddenly began to act out parts of a script they had rehearsed years before. Operating from the underground shelter beneath the White House, called the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, Cheney told Bush to delay a planned flight back from Florida to Washington. At the Pentagon, Rumsfeld instructed a reluctant Wolfowitz to get out of town to the safety of one of the underground bunkers, which had been built to survive nuclear attack. Cheney also ordered House Speaker Dennis Hastert, other congressional leaders, and several Cabinet members (including Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman and Interior Secretary Gale Norton) evacuated to one of these secure facilities away from the capital. Explaining these actions a few days later, Cheney vaguely told NBC's Tim Russert, "We did a lot of planning during the Cold War with respect to the possibility of a nuclear incident." He did not mention the Reagan Administration program or the secret drills in which he and Rumsfeld had regularly practiced running the country.


In sum, the 9/11 event has given the fascists who truly rule this country behind the scene precisely what they wanted: the possibility of full spectrum dominance not only abroad on a global scale but right here at home in the good ol' USA.

The aim of the Bush administration and the fascists who put it in and have kept it in office by hook and crook despite a lack of popular support, has always been to create the conditions necessary for the complete overthrow of the Constitution and the American Republic while, with corporate media complicity, appearing to be its defenders. They have succeeded. In its place they hope to erect a monstrous 'theocracy' with unlimited military potential to back it up. The scathing report by the committee that whitewashed 9/11 is a set up: http://www.nbc4i.com/news/5467517/detail.html the military 'high command' now has the capacity to hold the entire world--including domestic disidents--at gun point.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Didn't we do this before?
From your post:
Before TV cameras on the evening of 9/11 itself, Rumsfeld said to Senator Carl Levin, then chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee:
Senator Levin, you and other Democrats in Congress have voiced fear that you simply don't have enough money for the large increase in defense that the Pentagon is seeking, especially for missile defense...Does this sort of thing convince you that an emergency exists in this country to increase defense spending, to dip into Social Security, if necessary, to pay for defense spending-increase defense spending.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/dod_brief02.htm

Rumsfeld did not ask Senator Levin that question.

I see you have added a secondary source this time. Unfortunately, that source is just wrong as Dr. Griffin's.

Look - it doesn't even make sense in the context of the discussion.

Q: Mr. Secretary, were there threats issued against other U.S. facilities elsewhere in the world today?

Rumsfeld: The -- I don't know that there's a day that's gone by since I've been in this job that there haven't been threats somewhere in the world to some facility somewhere. It's a -- it's one of the complexities of the intelligence business that you have to sort through those kinds of things. But we don't get into the specifics.

Yes? You had your hand up? Yes?

Q: Mr. Secretary, there were rumors earlier in the day that the plane which crashed in Pennsylvania had been brought down by the United States, either shot down or in some other manner.

Rumsfeld: We have absolutely no information that any U.S. aircraft shot down any other aircraft today.

Q: I wonder if we could just ask Senator Levin one thing, Senator, if that's all right.

Levin: You bet.

Rumsfeld: Senator Levin, you and other Democrats...



Why would someone ask if they could ask Senator Levin a question and when he says they can, Rumsfeld is the one asking the question? Don't the people from the press usually ask the questions at press briefings?

Here's the official transcript:
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2001/t09112001_t0911sd.html
-Make7
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-05 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, we have. I am quoting Dr. Griffin from his book and I have quoted it
accurately. He may not be portraying the event in question accurately. I do not know. However, I see other pages, such as the one to which I link at Yale, does place the question as Rumsfeld's.

But even if it was a reporter asking the question, as you reasonably insist and as the government website indicates (and you can guess how much I trust them), it still seems to me to be a loaded question--the kind a Jeff Gannon or other right wing plant would ask. It very succinctly implies (despite a lot of evidence to the contrary) that Democrats had not realized terrorism was an urgent concern and, oddly enough, opens up the question of 'dipping into Social Security' to fund increased defense spending. Now, isn't that interesting? Whoever asked it, it is a god damned FUNKY question to be asking a Democratic Senator on live television after 9/11.

As far as I'm concerned, the point Griffin is making stands.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm just saying....
...repeating inaccurate facts is usually something that should be avoided. Especially when they are so easy to verify.

Audio clip of the Pentagon briefing.

I agree that the question was biased, and definitely shows very poor judgment on the part of the person asking the question.

However, I do think there is a substantial difference between the Secretary of Defense using "the attacks to browbeat"1 the chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee to obtain more money for Defense Department programs, and a reporter asking the Senator a poorly worded question.

Dr. Griffin has used this "fact" more than once, even though it could have very easily been checked for accuracy. In my opinion, it does not exactly help his case. One of the goals of a Truth Movement should be to present accurate information.
-Make7
1. The New Pearl Harbor - David Ray Griffin
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Can't argue with that!
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 10th 2024, 06:14 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC