FBI Tells 911 Rescue Worker to 'Shut Up' Over Finding Airplane "Black Boxe

[clem_c_rock]

http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.com/articles/article/1518131/17860.htm

<snippit>
Two ground zero workers go public about finding cockpit and flight data recorders from Flight 11 and 175. Government claims 'black boxes' from the doomed 911 flights were never found. 911 Commission ignores information and fails to interview rescue workers.

Honorary firefighter Mike Bellone claims he was approached by unknown bureau
agents a short time after he and his partner Nicholas DeMasi, a retired New
York firefighter, found three of the four "black boxes" among the WTC rubble
before January 2002.

The pair first claimed to find the data recorders in an August 2003 book
entitled "Behind The Scene: Ground Zero" when DeMasi said the "black boxes" were
found while he traversed ground zero in his ATV with three federal agents.
</snippit>

[BobbyinPortland]

1. Things that make you go, hmm

There's no telling what these people are covering up.

[in_cog_ni_to]

2. Those boxes are long gone too. We will NEVER hear

what was on them. They've been destroyed, no doubt.

[FloridaPat]

3. The Widows group found out that after 9-11 Jeb had the flight

schools here in Florida round up all the information about these guys - and shipped it out of the country. Those ladies should have been the ones on the committee, not those people who weren't interested in the truth.

[FreedomAngel82]

17. Interesting

More proof. And exactly on the ladies. Those people on the comission were just interested in covering Bush's ass. If it wasn't for 9/11 the truth about Gore winning the election would've come out and he probably would've been impeached. But of course that didn't happen.

[patcox2]

4. I'm sure, an amatuer volunteer just happened to find 3 black boxes.

Its not only ridiculous, its also inconsistent with other whacky tinfoil theories, such as the one that says there were no airplanes, or the one that says they couldn't have recovered the black boxes because there was no way they'd survive.

[loritooker]

5. 1. He found them with a professional firefighter. 2. He was there because

he owned a fleet of 4 wheelers which were in great demand at the site.

[flyarm]

6. obviously..

some here do not understand the black boxes are meant to withstand a total plane crash..with full ground inpact and ocean impact and water , salt water...the black boxes are almost indestructable!
and i guess you don't understand, all the workers at wtc were volunteer ..and they found fingers , and toes, and pictures and checkbooks, and bones,...
and i heard not long after 9/11 that the boxes were indeed found!

from a just retired 33 yr flight attendant for one of the airlines involved...and my son worked up there as a volunteer...you wouldn't want to know what he found! and saw.

ny flight attendant

[patcox2]

20. Obviously, some flight attendants are not engineers.

And they are unaware that black boxes are destroyed all the time in crashes. They are made to hold up to a lot, but not anything and everything.

[flyarm]

40. any part of "almost" you didn't understand

i may not be an engineer..but i understand the word .."almost" anything...so please tell me where i stated anything and everything???

seems to me you are throwing some good flames!!

fly

[flyarm]

41. ohh and by the way..please state

when the last black boxes were not recoverable in some form in the past 10 years?? or more!

fly

[patcox2]

49. In some form? Hmm.

I can't think of a single instance. Not even the 9/11 boxes. Noone is saying they weren't recovered, only that the data was not recoverable. So they were recovered, in some form.

[flyarm]

54. yes in some form as most have been recoverable and the tapes

recovered for ntsb reports and a great help in the investigation of a crash..even twa 800 was able to use the tapes to help recreate what occurred in the crash!!! from the bottom of the ocean!!

so come on..when was the last time other than 9/11 that the black boxes were not recoverable for the investigation..in some form..as the tapes can be cleaned up enough to get the pertainant info needed for the investigation..when was the last time that was not possible???



fly

[spooked911]

62. Why haven't they TOLD us then that they found them and that they

weren't readable????

In fact, I believe the 9/11 commission report says they never found them.

I smell a cover-up.

[stickdog]

65. No one is saying they were recovered, either. What they are saying is

"Shut up about them."

[stickdog]

64. Really? Tell us about the long history of destroyed black boxes please.

Seriously.

[JackRiddler]

7. He doesn't say he found them -

and you didn't read anything about this before spouting off, obviously.

A firefighter (DeMasi) and a rescue worker (Bellone) at Ground Zero both say they witnessed the collection of the boxes and acted as drivers in transporting them (which was what they were doing there for months!)

But never mind, your response is obviously reflexive. Denial ain't a river in Egypt.

[leveymg]

8. No stranger than their "finding" M. Atta's passport intact in a gym bag on

a nearby balcony within hours of the collapse. That just doesn't square with their never finding any of the black boxes.

Both are implausible events. Both are possible. Pick your conspiracy theory - the official or the unauthorized. Frankly, there's enough magic bullet theories in the 9/11 Commission Report to arm an infantry regiment.

:eyes:

[burn the bush]

9. I believe that the wacky tinfoil hat theories as you call them

re: no planes was associated with the pentagon only and if you look at the size of the hole made and the size of a plane with the absence of any wings or large debris being found in or outside of the pentagon....plus the main witness is Jeff Gannons boss....well it does make you wonder.

as far as the black boxes not surviving...I don't know anything about it except that black boxes have been surviving plane crashes for years.

The "wacky tinfoil hat theory" is that our government is acting in our best interest.

[cruadin]

12. You put your finger on the wackiest "tinfoil hat theory"...

that our government tells us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, regardless of how embarrassing (or incriminating) that truth may be. :tinfoilhat:

<edit*typo>

[Blue Belle]

14. I agree...

'The "wacky tinfoil hat theory" is that our government is acting in our best interest.'

-- couldn't have said it better myself.

[FreedomAngel82]

18. Another thing to remember

about the Pentagon is they never show anything but those few photos like how they do with WTC. I also remember reading how a local gas station just down the road the FBI took security camera video's because it showed the Pentagon. Why would they do that? Why don't you ever see photos of a plane hitting the Pentagon like you do WTC?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreedomAngel82]

19. That's easy

Bombs inside the building. They were inside the building that was hit and in tower seven. Here's a video: http://reopen911.org/video/collapse.mov

[Zynx]

21. WTC 7 would have sustained MAJOR impact groundquake damage

People tend to overlook the very large amount of shock released by objects the mass of the Twin Towers collapsing.

No idea if it was enough to weaken the building for it to collapse, but the conspiracy theories tend to overlook this.

[Skip Intro]

wouldn't other buildings have fallen for the same reason?

wouldn't buildings near major demolitions be weakened to the point of collapsing as well?

I see your point, but I don't believe its realistic.

[clem_c_rock]

32. That's about the most ridiculous thing I've heard

So why wouldn't any other buildings fall?

We're really trying to force things w/ this one.

[flyarm]

43. well if the quake theory you speak of is good for building 7

then why not take down the stock exchange building..it was right next to wtc! and if suffered the same quake stuff as building 7...and i say that because most of my neigbors worked on the floor that morning of the exchange...so why wasn't the stock exchange building taken down??

fly

[TomClash]

63. Better yet, what about 140 West Street, which ir right next door eom

[burn the bush]

57. it could not have fallen in its own footprints like it did by any other

means than professionally set explosives set with precision and skill. It would take weeks just to set up to get such a perfect implosion. It was not an accident.

[stickdog]

66. Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

I guess anything flies, huh?

[patcox2]

22. Tiny fire fed by 50,000 gallons of diesel fuel

stored in a tank atop the building because it happened to be a New York City emergency management command center designed to operate off generator power for extended periods?

[clem_c_rock]

26. Hmmm - funny - when you watch videos of the WTC7 fire

it's a tiny fire and it's only on a few floors in the MIDDLE of the building.

Find me some more information to support your theory.

[stickdog]

67. Fire without smoke or flames. Nice magic trick, huh?

[Selatius]

28. Actually, WTC 7, which wasn't struck, was knocked down ON PURPOSE

In America Rebuilds (aired PBS Sept. 2002) Silverstein makes the following statement:

"I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse."

It's a demolition term, industry jargon. They knocked the building down on purpose.

[burn the bush]

58. yep, then denied it like they didn't say it didn't they?

[burn the bush]

56. and none ever has collapsed in its own footprints like 7 did

you have to rig it to collapse like that and it takes a couple of weeks of planning and setting to do it.

[Frederik]

60. I have no idea whether it's true or not but...

So what if this piece of information is "inconsistent with other whacky tinfoil theories"? I thought the point here was to research this subject. Any theory is necessarily provisional, an attempt to make sense of the evidence that is available. New evidence should mean the theories be revised if the evidence does not fit the existing theories. That is, as far as I can understand, the only way to get progressively closer to the truth.

[leftofthedial]

11. Made them disappear On Purpose

[SheepyMcSheepster]

13. move along, we have always been at war with Eurasia...........

i hope hope hope hope, that one day some semblence of truth comes out about 9/11, i don't know what to believe, but i don't at all believe the "official" story.

[paula777]

15. Anyone have any theories to what the black boxes might have recorded?

I mean, we saw the planes go into the buildings on live tv. What would we hear other than a hi-jacking noises and horrific screams of fear panic?

[MadHound]

23. The hijackers speaking perfect, unaccented English.

Or referring to each other as Agent thus and such. Who knows:shrug:
By I've always been a bit leery of the idea that none of the boxes, designed and built to take an incredible amount of punishment, survived, yet somehow, a piece of incriminating paper somehow manages to emerge relatively unscathed. It just doesn't add up.

[patcox2]

25. And these american suicide cia agents wouldn't know better

Than to turn off the mikes, or remove the black boxes beforehand, or dosomething, whatever, rather than leave this record which now causes the secret conspirators to have to turn thir attention to yet another conspiracy, this time to silence the pesky honorary fireman?

[MadHound]

30. Let me ask you something then friend.

You have four black boxes, made of materials designed to withstand temperatures of over 2000 degrees F, with a recording medium made of high temp nickel alloy, the same alloy used in the afterburners of jet engines. This recording medium is inscribed in much the same way that a vinyl master albumn is inscribed. They are designed to withstand water for years, fire for hours, and the black boxes from the 911 flights are the only ones that have been destroyed in the past forty years. One box destroyed, shit happens, two boxes destroyed, something's fishy, all four boxes destroyed, I'm sorry, but that is a coincedence that boggles the mind. Especially considering that a paper and plastic passport did purportedly survive:eyes:.

So please, share with us your great wisdom of how this coincedence came to be, since you seem to have all the answers.

[patcox2]

42. Your priceless! Nickel alloy master albums, thats a hoot.

They are solid state and use computer chip memory. FAA standards say they must withstand 1,000C fire for 60 minutes, not hours. And they can and have been destroyed and even if they are recognizable when recovered, the data sometimes cannot be recovered.

But no, I just can't handle the truth, I guess, its really that they don't want us to find out something, I don't know what, but something.

[patcox2]

46. Many small parts of bodies survived as well, and shoes, and papers.

The chaotic and random nature of what happens in a complex accident makes it far more likely that your shoes, or your wallet, will survive a crash than you will. A large, complex meachine is more likely to be damaged than a drivers license by a factor of thousands.

Here's a fun little experiment you can do at home, or at a nearby location, to demonstrate (its called "science" and it differs markedly from fanciful speculation/fantasizing). Take your drivers license, and a laptop computer, up to the top of your roof and throw them down into your driveway. Examine to see which is harmed. Repeat the experiment, take a sony boombox and a drivers license to the top of a ten-story building and throw them off. Examine. Now of course, your laptop is not a black box, but it does go to demonstrate that strong forces tend naturally to be tougher on a complex system than on a little piece of paper.

Chance comes into it, of course, no way to tell which of the millions of pieces of paper in the planes and in the buildings would be blown out of the building to flutter down unharmed, and which would get stuck in the mess and burn up, but it does happen that way.

[Zinfandel]

37. Just another typical anti-conspiracy theorist! Believing everything they

are told by the government and the corporate media.

"It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back,' said NTSB
spokesman Ted Lopatkiewicz. "I can't remember another case which we did not recover the recorders."

[Just Me]

38. The anti-conspiracy thingy doesn't bother me as much as the,...

,...pissy patronizing. THAT bothers me,...a LOT!

[patcox2]

47. Its just because your so, well, dumb.

nt

[Just Me]

51. Your intelligence and character shines through that post, my dear.

Hence, I'm not even gonna "alert" your post. It's quite revealing and I want it to stay put.

[patcox2]

24. They wouldn't even have that. They have records of the avionics.

There is a cockpit voice recorder, yes. But the more important info is the record of the planes flight, all the instrument data and control inputs.

As you note, considering that we have video of the planes hitting the building, just what, pray tell, are they hiding? Will the black boxes reveal that, well, I don't know, I am sane, so I can't conceive of anything that would have to be hidden.

They don't want to admit just how wacky they are, these folks who think "honorary fireman" means anything other than "loony fireman groupie." Because the only thing on these black boxes (I wonder how many black boxes this guy has seen before and recovered from crash sites? Think they might just have been "boxes" that were "black" instead of "black boxes"(which are usually red))that could possibly need to be hidden would be something insane, like the fact that the planes were remotely controlled or some other idiotic idea. And if they fixed up the planes to be remotely controlled, it would never have occurred to them to take out the black boxes, too, right? No, instead all the evil conspirators are banging their foreheads in frustration and saying "My god, how did we ever forget to remove the black boxes?" (as Dr. Evil would) and scrambling to silence this pesky honorary fireman.

Yeah, thats what happened.

[flyarm]

45. you would have heard the door of the cockpit opening

when the so called hijackers entered the cockpit..as the flt attend were killed so somehow those hijackers penetrated the cockpit..so how did they get in..did they get the keys off the f/a's? and just enter..or did they storm the cockpit..or did the cockpit crew open the door? you would have heard what happened inside the cockpit..you would know if the plane was on autopilot or if the hijackers flew the plane..since that plane is 100% computerized you would know the altitude and speed of the plane...flucuations of altitude...you would hear all conversation with control tower..if flaps and rudders were used prior to hitting the buildings..noises from the cabin..if f/a's were calling the cockpit..and many many tecchnical things about the aircraft.

fly

[Just Me]

55. That information would be very revealing.

If the information contained in those boxes verified the government's representations about the 9/11 event, the government would have EVERY REASON to publish the contents. However, instead, ALL the boxes are supposedly destroyed or lost or whatever?

I just don't understand why anyone would be so anxious to immediately dismiss the claims of these two men. Why? Why automatically call them "nuts" or liars or whatnot? I find that reaction super-suspicious.

[burn the bush]

59. the hijackers talking on cell phones to Cheney?

lol.

that there were no hijackers on the planes and the pilots were yelling "wtf is happening to my controls?"

that there are hijackers and they say a little too much? Who knows what they were told. Maybe the hijackers were saying "WTF? I was told that we were suppose to take the plane to Saudi"

who knows what they might have said but just like everything else, it's being kept from us.

[stickdog]

68. You are right. No sense in investigating 9/11. We all saw in on TV.

[Just Me]

16. In my mind, there is only ONE reason for stashing the boxes away.

COVER-UP!!!

[patcox2]

27. Of what?

What info on the boxes could possibly need covering up? That they didn't really hit the buiildings? That they were really UFOs disguised to look like black boxes? That the planes had no passengers and were actually filled with Florida Ballots for Gore and thats why there was that confetti-like rain of burning paper when the planes/UFOs/Missiles/shaped charges hit the buildings under the control of suicideCIA agents/remote control/aliens?

[clem_c_rock]

29. Ha!! Nice! - Especially the Gore Ballots

Laughing my ass off!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

36. haha very funny

why have black boxes at all? I mean, it's pretty evident when you find pieces of plane on the ground that it crashed. So, once you realize a plane crashed HEY, CASE CLOSED - right?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Well, I don't know, patcox

Doesn't the cockpit voice recorder record 30-minute segments continuously so that one recovered after a crash should contain the last 30 minutes of conversation in the cockpit before the crash? I can't imagine that that wouldn't be of interest to someone investigating a major incident like this.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

33. exactly

which is why there is no need to hide them. right? we already know what happened so hiding them is unnecessary. you see the problem now?

[Just Me]

34. Why do you think the boxes would be stashed away?

If there is nothing incriminating, why the hell haven't they been produced,...why weren't they produced during the hearing?

The tone of your post is quite patronizing and pissy, BTW. Just 'cause you're uncomfortable with the possibility that your government may have had some disturbing role in 9/11 doesn't qualify you to be demeaning towards those who do have their suspicions.

[patcox2]

39. Suspicions are fine.

You are pretty demeaning to suggest that I am "afraid" to come to grips with the fact that the government lies, although your imlication is awfully glorifying of you, in the way you suggest that only the strong, like you of course, the brave, the righteous warriors, as it were, the bold iconoclasts, true heros, can handle "THE TRUTH."

No, suspicions are fine. I have my suspicions that Bush was secretly negotiating with the Taliban to allow Unocal to build the pipeline to Pakistan (where it would have connected with existing pipelines which would have allowed it to supply natural gas to the plant built in India by Enron, which failed project was pulling Enron under)and Bush pushed too hard and 9/11 was the response. I have my suspicions Bush is covering up the fact that he incited them to attack us, and that he had his head totally up his ass in not seeing the warnings.

But suspicions presented as facts, sloppy logic, bold supposition presented as undeniable truth, and statements that contradict known reality, such as the idea that fire cannot make a steel frame structure fail, or that the planes were empty and piloted by remote control, or that cel phones don't work in planes, these kinds of "suspicions," unwarranted by any evidence, they will lget my derision.

[Just Me]

44. These suspicions lead to discussions about possibilities.

Of course, I reacted with disdain. You took the first swing and I was quite justified in swinging back. No one has to tolerate being treated like some paranoid "conspiracy nut" when their objective is to actively and rationally seek THE TRUTH.

If the government were forthright and transparent, we'd have all the facts we need to draw logical, fact-based conclusions and rational judgments about what really happened. However, we clearly have a government which is secretive, deceptive and opaque leaving us no other recourse than independently investigate whatever facts we can find and discussing ALL possibilities.

There is NOTHING wrong with doing that. As a matter of fact, most effective and successful investigative agencies operate in precisely the same manner.

On edit: if you promise to hold back patronizing comments, I will certainly have no reason to react with counter-measures,...yes?

[Mr Rabble]

69. Secretly negotiating with the Taliban?

There was no secret of it. The Taliban leaders came to texas in 2001 and met with Delay and Abramhoff, amongst others.

To even make this statement shows that you have clearly not looked into the recent history of our oil business and politics.

And its only a coincidence that Hamid Karzai is a former Unocal Exec, right?

[drdtroit]

52. Slow day at EIB? n/t

[flyarm]

48. you bet!!!...you are 100% right!!

at no other time have RECORDER INFO NOT BEEN INVESTIGATED ..and airline crew could listen and learn from them..as well as airline personal...and ntsb, how do you think proceedures and rules and regs get made ..and why they get changed and improved..because of those tapes!!

fly

[Just Me]

53. Yep. But there are some who want to characterize such things as,...

,...dumb, paranoid "conspiracy" crap. :eyes:

Rational discussions about the 'disappearance' of these boxes just CAN'T be rational 'cause,...well, they just can't be 'cause some SAY they can't be considered rational and they just have to be dumb, conspiracy theories.

BLECH!!!

[sakabatou]

35. Wonder if they are ever going to be recovered from the feds...

[flyarm]

50. nope...

there have been too many lies!!

fly

[clem_c_rock]

61. A bit more on Black boxes...

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviation/CVR_FDR.htm