Re 9/11: Who Else Does NOT Subscribe to MIHOP or LIHOP Theories?

[DistressedAmerican]

For those that do not yet know:
MIHOP=made it happen on purpose
LIHOP=let it happen on purpose

The basic gist of which is that the neocons that have hijacked our country allowed or arranged for hijacked planes to be used as weapons against us on 9/11 for all of the political benefits that have flowed to them since the attack. Many even deny the very existence of Osama or his shadowy organization.

I have been seeing a lot from people that subscribe to these versions of the facts posting lately. I was wondering if this really is a prevalent thing on DU or if it is just a vocal minority.

Personally, I think it could and should have been prevented but wasn't due to basic incompetence within the administration and their tunnel vision about taking out Saddam. They simply put all of the info coming in on the back shelf because they didn't freaking care/didn't really freaking get it.

I am highly skeptical that anyone really put enough of it together to get it at all for that matter with the exception of Richard Clarke who was screaming from the roof tops.

In short, I think it was incompetence rather than dark conspiracy to make or let it occur.

Am I alone among the DU crowd that thinks these guys (while conspiring on thousands of OTHER evil and criminal thinks) are just incompetent losers on this one? If there is good evidence I am not finding of either LIHOP or MIHOP, I am very much open to that discussion as well.

DA

Old but true:

[seemslikeadream]

1. Why do you think they ignored Richard Clark?

[DistressedAmerican]

8. Just didn't believe him, or give a shit about what he was saying?

I think their heads were too far up their asses to hear him. Which is inexcusable but on purpose. I frankly think these guys were just too fucking stupid to be given credit for the "vision thing" to even get it done.

I am just curious, not really about hard debunking. The theories are plausible enough. I just don't really buy it myself. I am no expert and by no means want to imply that folks that do believe this are nuts or anything. I'll leave it open for the most part to discussion, if people want to go there in detail.

[Vincardog]

2. 1 for MIHOP=made it happen on purpose

[tk2kewl]

3. LIHOP along with a healthy dose on incompetence IMO

bush*Co didn't expect the attacks to be so disastrous

[tralfaz]

242. How long were these

terrorist in flight training for? I could be wrong but doesn't it take more than a few months to learn how to fly a jet airliner? If so, then that takes us right into the Clinton presidency. Was he incompetent also?

[deutsey]

4. I lean more toward incompetence and greed

They were so eager to make oil deals with the Taliban that they weren't paying attention to the threats the Clinton admin. (and intelligence from around the world) tried to tell them about. They were trying to schmooze the Taliban and, therefore, pulled back our intelligence folks from staying on top of them.

I don't think, however, that it's outside the realm of possibility that they let it happen or were even behind 9/11. I just haven't seen enough substantial evidence to make me believe this (and I am aware of the evidence people cite, which is why I "lean" toward incompetence but can't entirely rule out conspiracy).

[FtWayneBlue]

5. Someone had to make it happen

and I blame those that benefitted the most from it - those currently in power.

[DistressedAmerican]

12. Clearly someone! Who? And Why?

Bushco. or The Big "O"?

[slor]

6. Is this not LIHOP?

You said: "They simply put all of the info coming in on the back shelf because they didn't freaking care...".

[DistressedAmerican]

15. Didn't freaking care because they didn't BELIEVE the threats they were

hearing about is my intended point. Not that they knew it was coming and intentionally "let" it come.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. or...

They didn't freaking care because they needed an excuse to go to war against Iraq. Take your pick. Motive and opportunity.

What changed this week is that the documentation that they in fact consciously ignored multiple independent channels warning of the 9-11 operation was made public. (Clarke and FAA.)

Do we have to have a tape or a memo saying "do everything possible to let it happen" before you sceptics will concede the obvious?

Occams razor applies.

[laura888]

7. Rumsfeld has said that the PA plane was "shot down."

NORAD's version of events has changed. The Bush Administration has done all it can to stop investigation into 9/11.

And the list goes on.

If it were one thing, maybe....but there are just too many things.

[DistressedAmerican]

16. I AM with you on this one. I do think the only "Lets Roll" to be heard

that day was Rummy and Bush on the shoot down plan.

[mattclearing]

23. I'm sure they tried to take over the plane.

I'm also reasonably sure that the plane was shot down.

At the time, it was reported that the debris was scattered across 8 miles.

Someone said to me, "Maybe it bounced."

Never underestimate the power of denial.

[reichstag911]

9. Tough call...

Read the neocon PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" at http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf and it will be clear the BFEE was, at minimum, ecstatic about the events of 9/11. It allowed them to implement their global hegemonic ideology on America's execution of foreign policy. Also, a good book on 9/11, and the questions about BFEE complicity, is "The New Pearl Harbor" ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1566565529/qid=1108225030/sr=8-2/ref=pd_bbs_2/103-5696464-6242246?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 )by David Ray Griffin.

[verdalaven]

10. Edging toward LIHOP

simply because they went to such great lengths to cover up stuff that seemed unnecessary, while not bothering to cover up clear evidence of real incompetence.

[BuyingThyme]

41. YES, when you use logic, it's very simple, isn't it?

[phylny]

93. I'm inching toward that opinion myself.

After hearing the info on Randi Rhodes' show this week, and upon recalling how * was opposed to any inquiry, I'm unfortunately wondering if they did let it happen.

I also think they're a bunch of dolts. The two may or may not be connected.

[lonestarnot]

11. I'm in one or the other... haven't decided yet. But the FAA Terrorist

Coordinator's first day on the job was 9/11, and he conceeded that after 37 years on the FAA payroll, he did nothing but watch the planes fly into the towers on radar! WTF! Sounds like a MIHOP to me!

[whistle]

13. Nearly nine months from Jan 2001 when Bush took

...office until September 11, 2001, warnings, discussions, briefings, then following the attacks Bush administration stonewalls any investigation of 9-11 until 2004, then censors and classifies numerous reports and communications and even refused to testify to the investigation committee until public pressure made the administration give in and testify, only to have them continue to lie. Incompetence is the least likely explanation, but the administration has been more than willing to allow that to be the official position and is not at all ashamed of looking totally stupid to the world.

I go for MIHOP as the most likely reason for 9-11!

[Zeke]

19. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bush (Cheney) & the Necons knew, and that's that.

Can you say PNAC and their stated
need for another Pearl Harbor?

Bush knew.

[lala_rawraw]

14. MIHOP

I am now convinced. I don't care if I am called a "theorist," it simply means I think and come to "facts."

By the way, the entire free world holds the same view. I don't get why there are so many in our own country who still think it was a "surprise" attack. Denial theorists are really the issue.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

26. The entire free world holds no such view............

Ridiculous.

The people who MIHOP are all dead......they died when the planes they hijacked slammed into their targets.

[mattclearing]

33. Here's one for you, DA!

You might want to read this thread, do some googling, and re-evaluate your opinion. And if you still believe the official story, so be it.

I respect your opinion, but if you haven't considered the many inconvenient facts involved, I invite you to do so.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

46. Thanks for respecting my opinion.......

The funny thing about these conspiracy theories is that in order to believe them one must then discount the fact that Al Queda exists and has as it's sole purpose to commit acts of terrorism.

I have no doubt that the Bush Crime Family seized on Sept. 11th to push though their various agendas, but to believe that they were actually behind the attacks leaves us open to further attacks because we're all trying to 'connect' dots that aren't really there, which means that the actual dots go free to plan and carry out new missions of terror.

Then again, the Left is certainly more willing to accept that their own country is far more evil and willing to kill their own than Osama bin Laden. The fact that Osama was behind the attacks makes a lot of people a little pissed that someone is more evil than their government and they in turn must somehow disprove it.

Oh, and I respect your opinion too.

[mattclearing]

54. I was aware of Osama long before 9/11, and the pleadings of ignorance

of this administration are amazing.

Tom Friedman wrote a book about Globalization called The Lexus and the Olive Tree where he talked at length about the effect that "super-empowered individuals" could have on the world, and OBL was his main case in point.

Bill Clinton was obsessed with bin Laden.

But Bush and bin Laden so far have made an unbeatable tag team, in my humble opinion.

It helps to keep the ordinary folk in line.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

64. I have no argument with anything in this post........

I just think that the tag team was created on and not before Sept. 11th., and was a creation of Bush and Friends once they realized that Osama held the key to their continued success.

I think Osama really, really meant to hurt people on Sept. 11th. and would slit Bush's throat if given the opportunity....they are not friends nor are they in league with one another.

[Warren Stupidity]

68. intersecting sets

They hate each other but they have a shared interest in certain outcomes. Osama needed to strike inside the US, the neocons needed a new pearl harbor so they could start their world conquest. Osama isn't exactly unhappy about our invasion of Iraq, and the clowns have their empire, and they still hate each other.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

77. Shared Interest......Invasion.....World Conquest.....Empire.......

Sounds like it would make a riveting spy novel.

Mr Clancy is that you?

[Warren Stupidity]

156. its already been written by John Le Carre

Good read. Absolute Friends. http://www.johnlecarre.com/

[mattclearing]

78. Gotta go!

That kinda talk can get people into trouble.

[frylock]

107. would slit bush's throat if given the opportunity..

they had that opportunity. His itinerary on that day was well known. They could have dropped a plane on Booker Elementary and taken junior out if they were intent on doing so. Bushco knew exactly what was taking place on that day, otherwise junior would have been removed from that very insecure area, post haste.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

110. Yep........

Osama and friends, just woke up on September 11th and decided to hijack and fly planes into the Pentagon and the W.T.C., there was certainly no planning involved, I mean they're JUST A-rabs right? And we know that only the superior white man could ever conceive of and carry out such a mission.

Since there was obviously no planning involved, they could have just flown right past the Pentagon and down to Florida to hit the school after checking W's itinerary online.

No Problem.


Further, it would have made more sense to drop a plane on Clinton's head, as he was more responsible for an incredible number of Muslim deaths via the continuation of sanctions imposed on Iraq during his tenure as President....Bush had only recently arrived on the scene.

[frylock]

121. i don't care if they were white, black, brown, or green..

the fact that they were stated to be so inexperienced that they couldn't even land a crop duster, yet were able to pull maneuvers in a commercial airliner that a Top-Gun F-18 pilot would be proud of is merely one piece of the puzzle.

But thanks for ASSUMING that I'm a racist, despite nothing in my post that would indicate such.

on edit: You seem to have your mind set that the Official Lore of 9-11 is how it actually went down, but if you do have an open mind, I suggest that you read Nafeez Ahmed's to learn more about what led us to that day. He himself is an Ay-rab, and he holds some interesting theories based on facts, not myths.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

126. Whether or not it has 'been stated' that they couldn't.........

land a crop duster (though a nice skill to have I guess, it was not necessarily what they were planning on doing), they did manage to accomplish what they intended to accomplish.

I'm not assuming you are a racist at all, it's you that seem to keep suggesting that the hijackers couldn't possibly do what they did even though reality would suggest otherwise.

[Sterling]

124. The terrorist had just been in florida....

You are the one making the racist assumption that the "A-rabs" were not capable of staying in Florida and blowing up Bush instead.
If you had a bunch or terrorist who were actually willing to die in the attack you could certainly attack the president or any individuals that Osama supposedly hated. It really does not fit at all with traditional ME terrorism either.

Why have their not been any more attacks yet? I bet the next one will come just when the PNAC gang need another shot in the arm. That is why you need to take this a little more seriously friend.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

127. Clearly........

you are a Mideast terror expert and I am sorry to have wasted your time with my opinions, though my guess the reason why there haven't been more terrorist attacks (unless of course you ignore the multitude of them around the world since Sept. 11th.) here is because it got a little harder to pull them off on American soil.

Oh yeah, the moment you have proof that the PNAC was responsible for 9/11, would you please make it availible?

Also, who do you think Richard Clarke holds respnsible for 9/11, Osama bin Laden or the PNAC? I'm assuming he'd have a fairly good idea.

[Sterling]

153. Really? It is sadly very easy to pull off attacks in the US>

I don't have to be a ME expert to know that. All I have to do is take a subway in NYC or drive by the barely defended nuke facilities to understand how vulnerable we are to attack. It says a lot on this topic that Bush is willing to leave us so defenseless.

The only reason it has not happen is the same reason it was not prevalent before 9-11. It is not in the interest of the "terrorists to give W's greedy oil buddies an excuse to send the worlds most expensive military to invade their home countries and destroy an opportunity they had of using their own resources to build the Islamic state they supposedly want so badly.

Wow that was a long sentence.

[Duer 157099]

132. Yes. This to me is one of the

biggest smoking guns (of many).

Occam's razor dictates that the simplest explanation is often correct. What is the simplest explanation for the secret service not removing Bush IMMEDIATELY upon hearing "we're under attack"??? They didn't think he was in jeopardy. WHY? think about it.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

136. Applying the same 'simple explaination' logic.........

The planes hit in New York, Washington, and (sorta) Pa., not Orlando, Ft. Meyers or Miami.

Seemingly the simplest answer to why didn't they think he was in jeopardy would be that it appeared that he wasn't.

[Duer 157099]

141. LOL, that's ridiculous!

At the time he was sitting in the classroom, all they knew is that several planes had been hijacked and that we were "under attack".

Yeah hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? Sometimes foresight too.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

145. Actually, once they knew that we were 'under attack'.........

they knew more than just several planes had been hijacked.

Perhaps you could provide some kind of proof that Bush knew any more than the rest of us did while he sat in that classroom (aside from the ignored warnings), and further maybe you can let me know how you know what the Secret Service knew and when they knew it.

Oh yeah, and if you have time, would you please compare Bush's actions to the actions of the last person who was President when three airplanes were hijacked and flown into buildings in New York and Washington causing the death of over 3,000 innocent people...what protocol did the Secret Service follow then and how did the actions taken on Sept. 11th. 2001 differ?

[Duer 157099]

148. Well of course you are correct

The Secret Service would, of course, not have been prepared for such a scenario, since some 50 or so warnings were not received in Washington the prior months.

Again, apply Occam's razor with regard to what, actually, the Secret Service is trained for. What is more believable, that they stood around with their mouths agape, or that they were very well trained and knew exactly how to respond in EVERY situation?

I have no problem believing that the President behaved like the dolt that he is because that's who he is. It's looking further up the strings he's attached to that is important.

[DistressedAmerican]

149. Does this really look like a mastermind who's plans are coming together?

Or does he look look a clueless git, hoping someone will tell him what to do next?

[Sterling]

163. No it was not his plan. I cannot say for sure that he even understands

much of it. This plan is the composite of the work of decades of well funded RW think tanks and back room deals within the MIC and power elite.

Dummy is just the bad actor the got to play cowboy president while the initiate their dramatic resource grab at tax payer expense. They chose he and his family because they know how to keep their mouths shut and have a long history involvement of similar crimes.

[Individualist]

165. The PNAC puppet is in charge of nothing

It was the plan of PNAC, not a single mastermind.

[WoodrowFan]

186. I know, I know!

clueless git!!!! This bozo couldn't plan a one float parade.

[Sterling]

209. It's great you read the two posts in front of yours.

That show how silly your line of argument really is when you break it down. I am impressed you had the guts to go ahead and post it anyway in spite of how it would make you look.

Most people would have just passed but you display a courage I only see in Neo Cons that would rather bend the facts to suit them than change to fit the facts.

It's great to be confident you are right but it's better to actually be right IMHO.

[tralfaz]

243. I'm not going to say

anything because a moderator will probably delete it, but do you really believe the garbage that you wrote?

[cosmicdot]

196. re OBL ... can anyone provide proof that he is 1) alive ...

2) was alive on 911 3) if he, indeed, is need of dialysis, where is he obtaining that regularly needed and critical medical care?

i.e., "The fact that Osama was behind the attacks..."


thanks ... that is all

[DistressedAmerican]

65. You never posted the thread!

Please, post it and I'll take a look.

[mattclearing]

81. No, I was referring to a MIHOP/LIHOP non-believer.

The comment about the thread was intended for the person I was actually responding to, saying basically, take a look around at THIS thread, there are a lot of legitimate reasons to question the official story.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. and you know this how?

What is ridiculous, absent all other issues is your statement that "The people who MIHOP are all dead". Obviously they are not ALL dead, even if you accept the tin-foil theory that Osama bin Laden's organization acted alone without any help, direct or indirect from other organizations.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

50. My guess is that you know what I meant.........

.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. live by the flame, die by the flame

If you are going to assert that one poster's statements are ridiculous you should be pretty careful to not make an equally ridiculous claim in your own post.

I knew what you meant, sort of.

[OneMoreDemocrat]

59. You're right.........

Which is why I was doubly careful not to do so.

Anything else?

[spooked911]

234. bullshit. And most of the world knows that the Bush administration was

behind 9/11-- at minimum that they let 9/11 happen on purpose. That is one reason they hate Bush so much.

Face the facts. There is ample evidence elements of this government made 9/11 happen to further their agenda.

Go to my blog, there are some books recommended there you could read.

[tralfaz]

244. Thank you

because since it appears on your blog it must be true. LOL.

[spooked911]

245. No-- I'm just saying you can look at these books and judge for yourself.

[fujiyama]

17. Somewhere in between

LIHOP and incompetance.

Either way, I view it as complete negligence. They ignored warnings from Clarke and the previous administration. They were too worried about Iraq and missile defence.

[mattclearing]

18. There are a lot of unexplained questions.

As long as the Administration fights efforts to discover what actually happened and the media continues to shout down people with legitimate questions, people will continue to fill in the blanks.

Personally, I think it is important to look at who benefits.

Did Osama benefit? Did the Muslim peoples of the world benefit?

Did anyone benefit, other than Republicans, who at the time had lucked into the White House and faced a LOOOONG four years of getting their asses beat, after 8 years of getting their asses beat by Clinton?

The country needed changing in order to facilitate their agenda.

I believe in evidence, but they have fought legitimate efforts to investigate.

And don't give me the 9/11 commission bullshit, the first choice to head it up was Henry Kissinger, for Christ's sake. Not credible. And the questions they asked were the wrong questions.

Osama has often been said to have been a CIA asset in the war against the Soviets.

Does the CIA strike anyone here as the kind of organization you can leave, or screw over and expect to get away with it?

Did Osama show up on the election eve to screw John Kerry?

Who benefits?

[Nite Owl]

20. It's no dark conspiracy

The facts are there. If there are explanations they aren't giving them, why? The conspiracy is theirs not ours. They need to prove that it wasn't total incompetence or some darker motive.

[femme.democratique]

21. Hello, the US Government CREATED Osama AND al Qaida

We are responsible for this, how is it that you do not see this?

[The Magistrate]

29. That Statement, Ma'am, Is Well In Advance Of Actual Evidence

Islamic resistance to the Soviets, including their puppet regime prior to invasion, predated any U.S. involvement; indeed, the existence of religiously based resistance to "Western" powers in the Afghan region particularly dates back generally to the early decades of the nneteenth century. The U.S. used this long existing current of behavior; it was not created by U.S. power or subterfuge. Nor was it ever loyal to, or controlled by, the U.S. government: it simply accepted arms and monies from the U.S., and for the nonce used these in ways that aligned with U.S. desires, but were also of course their own desires.

From the point of view of the persons engaged in that resistance against the Soviets, it was they who were using the U.S., and not the other way around. Jihadist literature from the period was pretty clear about turning from targeting one un-believing power to targeting the other un-believing power after one was defeated. From the point of view of a Deobandi or a Wahhabbi, there is no more difference between Communism and Capitalism than there is between Catholicism and Protestantism from a Hindu point of view.

[Sterling]

108. He should have said "fostered" and could have gone as far as

"controlled" certain factions and individuals in said movement. It is also reasonable to ask if the power elite connected to OBL's family could be a possible connection between the SA elites and a certain faction of US elites.

Lets focus on answering questions like this rather than attacking people who are asking them.

[The Magistrate]

168. 'Fostered', Mr. Sterling

Would certainly have better fit the actual state of affairs. But it lacks the ring of total responsibility necessary for further development of the point.

Your statements that elements in the jihadist movement can be viewed as controlled by the C.I.A. or other U.S. intelligence formations is similarly something well beyond what evidence can really support, particularly as applied to leading elements and ideologues. These persons have their own independent existance; they have their own interests and desires and ambitions and goals. At one point the bulk of these overlapped those of the U.S. and there was some co-operation accordingly; that is not now, and has not for a long time been, the case, and so such cooperation does not exist. Relations are now hostile, as at bottom they always were.

The question of relations between elements of leading political and business circles in the two countries you have named seems to me beside the point of what is being discussed here. Some such connections exist between such ruling circles in all countries, and so there is nothing unique, or suggestive, about such connections. They do nothing whatever to advance a case that a movement hostile to both the U.S. and the House of Saud is acting in fact at the behest of either or both those entities.

[Sterling]

177. Well it may not sound as dramatic but if you are paying attention....

It should be just as scary to any truly patriotic American. In this case we have more than just an enemy of my enemy link btw BFEE and OBL. There are very few degrees of separation btw the BFEE and the people they claim are responsible for 9-11.

Regardless of how you feel about any specific CT's you cannot deny we have a serious conflict of interests here.

[JohnyCanuck]

22. The use of false terror attacks blamed on an "enemy" is not new.

I just stared another GD thread with the title

NATO organized terror attacks and blamed the left

It links to a story on Commondreams.org about NATOs use of false terror operations during the cold war which were blamed on leftists groups and used to stimulate a demand for greater government protections on the part of the populace. When making your assessments as to whether or not 911 was LIHOP or MIHOP it might be good to check out this article.

The article does not in any way make any claims about 911 itself but it instructive as to the mindset of the extremist type of thinking within the Western military and right wing political circles.

Check out this very telling paragraph allegedly quoting from a member of a secret Italian military organization, Gladio, involved in these false terror attacks:

As one of Gladio’s operatives said, “You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security. (my emphasis /jc)

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0210-22.htm

Now ask yourself just who benefited the most from the 911 attacks? Who got their Patriot Act rammed through Congress without a squeak of opposition? What bumbling sockpuppet of a figurehead president suddenly became a great wartime leader and got the war in Iraq that he and his neocon/PNAC string pullers had long been angling for?

[spooked911]

236. Yes-- this is a key point made by Webster Tarpley in his new book

http://www.waronfreedom.org/index.html#synth

I'm reading the advance copy now and it is very very interesting.

[nostamj]

24. who benefitted from 9/11?

who joked that he'd hit 'the trifecta'

who was punished for incompetance?

who was rewarded?

just planting 'seeds of doubt' ;-)

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DistressedAmerican]

30. Fuck No I Do Not! I Think They Have Lied And Covered From Day 1!

The most convincing version I have read of events was Clarke's. He was the only person inside the administration that was in a position to see it first hand and has had the balls to come out against the official version of events. His is basically a tale of total incompetence and failure to pay attention to it as a real problem.

Please cite your references on claims like "all potential evidence was destroyed". Let's pursue the truth together.

On Edit: Let me add this relatively new graphic to highlight my distrust of this group of neoconmen:
[img

[mattclearing]

36. I believe this is a reference to the debris from the WTC.

Rather than take evidence as one would in any murder case and analyze it, the debris was trucked off to be disposed of in a landfill somewhere.

[DistressedAmerican]

63. I am an archaeologist by trade and followed the recovery and analysis

VERY closely. As they were looking for people with recover experience, they put out requests for archaeologists to aid in the recovery efforts and sift ALL of the debris for the smallest evidence.

Ideally this would have occurred at the ground zero site. The process occurred mainly at the Freshkills Landfill as the effort to save anyone that could be saved required rapid removal from the attack site.

Claims that the stuff was just carted off and destroyed are ridiculous.

I know many who personally took part in the recovery of the smallest personal belongings, body parts, etc. The collection and processing was EXTREMELY METICULOUS as I understand it. All of the processing was carried out in conjunction with the ATF and FBI crime analysts supervising the work.

Lets have no more of this ill informed rumor.

[BuyingThyme]

74. Where are the black boxes?

[mattclearing]

85. Thanks for this.

Good to know that it's not necessarily the case. This gets a lot of play in the conspiracy world, but then a lot of obviously implausible/impossible things are taken seriously as well.

[Sterling]

109. I totally understand where you are coming from.

I also expect as soon as you take a serious look at the endless list of evidence to support some of the CT theories you will change your mind.

[kittenpants]

27. I don't know if I give the administration that much credit to believe

they orchestrated it. I find it more likely that many of the inconsistencies are a result of them trying to cover their asses for their incompetence and lack of a response. That said, I agree that there are some strange pieces of evidence like Mohammad Atta's passport surviving (but not the black boxes?)... but why would they plant an Egyptian's passport rather than Iraqi or Afghani if that's who they wanted to invade...

I don't discount MIHOP or (especially) LIHOP, I just think I don't know enough of the truth to say I believe the gov't did it.

*** really strange, I must say, is World Trade Center 7 which seems to have been destroyed for structural reasons on purpose but is later denied... anyone have an explanation for that?

[mattclearing]

31. WTC 7 is another giveaway.

It just drops, all four corners, all at once, for seemingly no reason. There is video; it looks like a controlled demolition.

News media: ZZZzzzzzz...

[BuyingThyme]

37. The only metal structure ever to get knocked down by a fire.

Go figure.

[foo_bar]

83. welders do it every day

That sounds like a lewd bumper sticker.

[kittenpants]

89. lol

[Sterling]

172. You should tell welders. They could make a lot more in the controlled

demolition biz. Especially if the know the Bush family and how to keep secrets.

[foo_bar]

183. conspiracy theorists do it by hand

Identified thermo-mechanical phenomena include:

restrained thermal expansion leading to buckling in both beam and slab structural elements
thermal bowing due to differential temperatures in the main structural elements initially and due to through depth thermal gradients in slab later.
induced P-ä moments in highly restrained compartments, due to high axial forces and large deflections due to large thermal straining.
material degradation leading to reducing forces in the steel members.
alternative load carrying mechanisms due to membrane stiffness of the concrete slab
the behaviour indicates a number of competing effects in real structures which counter conventional understanding of structural behaviour in fire based upon traditional design methods

150°C - 200°C

The deflections begin to grow at a higher rate and Figure 3.44 shows the P-D moments increasing rapidly as a consequence. The rise in hogging moments at the ends reachs approaches its peak value (slab tensile capacity is reached) and the end rotational restraint is completely lost (see Figure 3.42). Moment redistribution to midspan begins (Figure 3.42 and Figure 3.43). Concrete participates in the composite moment carrying capacity only through developing axial forces (see Figure 3.41) showing negligible moments in concrete, therefore absence of axial-flexural interaction in the model does not have serious consequences). The effect of hogging moment growth is also reflected in the continued increase in compression in the ribs near the ends (due to very low deflection caused by the hogging curvature until about 200°C) as shown in Figure 3.45. The same figure shows that the axial compressions in the central ribs begins to decrease after 150°C as the deflections begin to grow near the midspan.

200°C - 500°C

The next major event is caused by the steel joist reaching its ultimate axial capacity at approximately 500°C, beyond which the compressions follow the path determined by steel capacity. Figure 3.42 shows the end and midspan moments in the composite. The difference between these moments gives a measure of a notional uniformly distributed load carried by the composite beam. This difference shows that over twice the imposed load is actually experienced by the beam because of thermal effects, also shown in Figure 3.42 (as end-to-centre difference). However this capacity is seriously eroded when the steel joist begins to degrade in strength after 500°C.

University of Edinburgh, June 2000

[AZCat]

184. It would help...

If you explained what your point is, and why you included portions of this study in your post.

[foo_bar]

188. the subject was a double entendre to mental masturbation

The study explains how fire and heat weaken steel structures, thermal expansion being anathematical to tin foil.

[DistressedAmerican]

189. If it helps, I got It, I thought it was both funny and applicable to the

conversation.

[AZCat]

190. Thank you very much for clarifying - my apologies

I apologize for being thick-headed and not grasping your point.

I had to look up the definition of "anathematical" also, but it never hurts (much, anyway) to be reminded of how much one doesn't know. :)

[Minstrel Boy]

42. It's not an administration op. It couldn't have happened without

the connivance of a network of military-intelligence, criminal and business interests, that go far deeper, and was in place for far longer, than an administration that was only months old.

Read what Sibel Edmonds says. She hasn't been gagged by the Justice Department for no reason. She says to look beyond, and behind, governments.

The Bush Administration is composed of elements of that network - in some sense, it's the shadow government stepping out of the shadows - but I believe the election was stolen in 2000 in part to exploit an attack already known by some to be coming, not to manufacture one from scratch. And once in power, they used their office made damn sure it happened.

[mattclearing]

48. ding ding ding ding!

It all comes back to JFK and the battles of the 60's, in my opinion. This country was wrested from its rightful path.

It continues into uncharted, undesirable waters to this day, and the usual suspects are still at or near the wheel.

[Desertrose]

75. I absolutely agree with you tasteblind & with MB

This has been going on for decades...such a huge plan takes time to put in place and must be done incrementally so the "people" don't catch on....well thanks to * and the rest of his "gang" being so darn blatant and incompetent....how can ANYONE not see the larger picture on this is beyond me.


I agree...our country has been wrested for its original path...but it may have begun a lot longer ago than we thought.

[spooked911]

239. Yes. Makes sense. I definitely believe much of 9/11 was independent of

the Bush admninistration per se, but on the other hand, there is something about 9/11 that is indisputably theirs as well. Perhaps the fact that they coordinated NORAD wargames to take away any chance of air interception of the hiajcked jets? Or maybe just that the Bush administraiton didn't lift a finger to stop attacks everyone important knew was coming. So I don't think they can be blamed for the making the attacks happen-- that was the secret government at work-- but the Bush admin made sure the attacks succeeded.

Moreover, the anthrax attacks were a government job, and had Republican handprints all over.

[BuyingThyme]

32. MIHOP absolutely...LIHOP still...

A few monsters made it happen and a large army is still allowing it to happen.

They opened the OPERATION NORTHWOODS file and performed a search and replace.

[SouthernDem2004]

34. Negative on the conspiracy theories...

It would have required the complicity of the Clinton Administration. To many people are making assumptions not based on any facts. Blogs and websites by other conspiracy people just do not make for good source material.

[Warren Stupidity]

39. it requires no help from the prior administration

The folks who either MIHOP or LIHOP were inside the pentagon and the state department and the intelligence community, either as careerists inside the gov. or in the PNAC associated think tanks outside the offical gov. before during and after the clinton administration. The clintons were just a speed bump on the road to bagdhad.

Things were indeed set in motion prior to 1/20/2001, which is why the election of 2000 had to go to * no matter what. The only critical pieces were to make sure that nobody put a stop to the hijack teams and that nobody overreacted early am 9/11 est, that no top-gun wannabe took matters into his own hands. Mission accomplished.

[SouthernDem2004]

44. Any proof at all? One little fact?

[Warren Stupidity]

52. yes, but it won't help you as you're mind is set.

First off: there will not be a smoking gun, which is what you are going to require or you will just say 'that's not proof'.

Now that we have got that out of the way we have this weeks two bits of evidence:

1) multiple independent channels, clarke and the faa, warning of al qaeda direct threat and specific flying fundamentalist fuel bomb attacks. Administration ignores all warnings and afterwards publicly lies that these warnings existed.

2) faa ops director, 32 years of experience, has senior moment and doesn't know he's supposed to scramble air defense as part of routine hijack procedures, instead watches planes fly into tall buildings.

But your mind is set. So nevermind.

[SouthernDem2004]

69. Well...

if you want to be rude then fine...

Main Entry: fact
Pronunciation: 'fakt
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
1 : a thing done: as a obsolete : FEAT b : CRIME <accessory after the fact> c archaic : ACTION
2 archaic : PERFORMANCE, DOING
3 : the quality of being actual : ACTUALITY <a question of fact hinges on evidence>
4 a : something that has actual existence <space exploration is now a fact> b : an actual occurrence <prove the fact of damage>
5 : a piece of information presented as having objective reality
- in fact : in truth

"fact." Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. 2004. http://www.merriam-webster.com (12 Feb. 2005).

Sure, warnings about terrorist using planes as weapons have been around for a while. Ever read Tom Clancy? There were no specific threats in regards to 9/11. Zero facts in your number 1 that lead to a actual conspiracy.

Your number 2 also presents zero facts to it being a planned attack.

Sure, people made mistakes. Sure, in hindsight things should have been done better. Of course hindsight is always 20/20.

[Sterling]

174. require? no. but I do not rule out.

I don't think he is directly involved but I would be surprised if he has no idea what is going on. He seems pretty comfy with the BFEE these days. Much too much for my taste in leadership. I want a guy that I can tell can barely keep himself from ripping the pukes throats out.

[mattclearing]

40. Yeah, but waiting for validation from the Washington Post won't do either.

The news media are people too. I'm sure this conversation happens in newsrooms all the time.

If you had a huge paper and thousands of jobs and reputations were on the line, would you accuse your own Government of incompetence or malice?

The media are not godlike or omniscient. The news media in this country constantly print misleading material in efforts to appear neutral. Neutrality is not truth.

Look at Dan Rather. Not infallible. Taken out by bloggers.

Matt Drudge leaked the Lewinsky scandal after Newsweek spiked it. People might never have known!

How many 9/11 related stories do you think have been spiked?

[SouthernDem2004]

45. Please, I still need one fact to start believing these "theories."

[Warren Stupidity]

55. why do you believe the official theory? (NT)

[SouthernDem2004]

71. Why wouldn't I?

We know who did it. Even Bin Laden has stated he was involved in one of his videos. We know who trained where. We have video of them entering the airport. We have video of the second crash. We have audio from passengers on the plane that went down in the field. etc... Those are facts.

[BuyingThyme]

90. Yes, we know who trained where...

They were trained by Americans, in the United States, under surveillance of the FBI.

Facts.

[SouthernDem2004]

101. True. Those are facts.

[Jose Diablo]

187. There is considerable doubt about how authentic

that tape showing 'fat nose' OBL confessing to doing 9-11 in that tape 'found' in an abandoned house in Afghanistan.

The "fact" is, OBL denied involvement in 9-11 right after it happened. But he did say he knew who did do it. Terrorists usually have no problem with taking credit when they succeed.

Who benefits? Aren't you the policeman? Ever make detective?

[SouthernDem2004]

201. Aye but I deal in facts and not assumptions.

Considerable doubt by whom???? Conspiracy types?

[Sterling]

211. Make up your mind.

Do you take time to look for facts or not? You can''t have it both ways now. If you are interested in facts and info then post less opinion and do more research. Then if you still think you are right you will be able to back up your argument and maybe someone will be impressed by your position.

Your new so I can understand you don't really know what DUers respect and what qualifies as an informed opinion around here. This is not like some careers or offices environments that you can get by with saying "I just think so and I don't care what you think" or "Because I said so".

If you can't play by the rules that are respected here then you will probably just be valued for your unintended comedic contribution to the discussions.

[SouthernDem2004]

215. Still mad, eh?

Just because I put you on ignore...

If you will read my post about these issues all I ask for is facts. I have yet to receive even ONE that backs up some of these theories. Just ONE fact is all I am asking for.

[Sterling]

227. Not mad at all.

The facts are all over this thread and easily found using the DU search feature or google. Ignoring facts and info is a common theme in your worldview so by all means ad me to the list of things you refuse to acknowledge. lol.

[SouthernDem2004]

231. Making assumptions again. Still zero facts. Good luck.

[Sterling]

235. You lose credibility when you make threats...

you don't intend to back up. Not that credibility seems to be high on your list of priorities but none the less I thought I was on your ignore list? :eyes:

[Sterling]

160. You don't do that though do you?

You have said on more than one occasion you can't be bothered to look at and especially for information of such silly things.

[SouthernDem2004]

166. Trolling again I see... Your almost like a stalker...

[Sterling]

170. Me trolling? I am actually interested in the topic of the thread.

And no Ii am not stalking you but when someone takes such an unusual position on learning about new things on this board they are really going to stand out.

No offense, I can respect that you don't place the same value on information that others do.

Come to think of it you made your debut here by announcing you were a cop and lecturing us, that tends to draw attention to you as well.
Don't worry lots of people know each other here. I have no interest in knowing you personally.

[SouthernDem2004]

194. Lol, never lectured anyone. Go reread the thread.

Your first paragraph is nonsense. I have no problem learning anything. I am asking for facts plain and simple. I have not been provided with any. If you can give me one I will be more then happy to listen.

[Name removed]

212. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SouthernDem2004]

216. Really?

I started an identical thread the other day: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3095416

How is that egotistical or opionionated??? Sure I put you on ignore when you started using profanity and being insulting. If I am not mistaken the mods even deleted a post or two of yours. Guess I may have no choice to put you back on ignore since you seem to be the stalker type.

[Sterling]

228. I think starting it twice is pretty egotistical.

It was such a hit the first time.

Mods delete things all the time for god knows why.

Stay here long enough and you will lose a few post to the night as well. I have a feeling you probably already have.

I am not bothered by people who use the ignore feature. It's no threat to me. I like to keep my eyes open and don't pretend things I don't like don't exist.I find it gets in the way of any real progress in finding solutions to my problems.

[SouthernDem2004]

232. Nope, the thread became so large I could not keep track plus

I was busy for a few days and could not check the thread.

[Sterling]

240. I just don't think it's that important.

I know lots of cops. If I wanted to know what you thought about belong a cop I would ask you. To me it does not make you special or give you any additional credibility. That you have to earn on the marits of you contribution to the board.

I sincerely hope you can put your ego aside and learn as much from this place as I have. I did not learn by posting threads about myself and professing my lack of interest in study and research.

To my knowledge no one ever has.

[SouthernDem2004]

230. This is pointless. You are off to making false statements again. Good

luck to you...

[kittenpants]

38. for MIHOP, any explanations on why they would plant Saudi & Egyptian ID's

for the hijackers rather than Iraqi or Afghani? I believe that PNAC's wish and 9/11's occurrence is really too strange to be a coincidence, but that passports have always bothered me. If they're manufactured, then why not attribute the blame to Iraq?

I'm not trying to discount these ideas AT ALL, just wonder if anyone has ideas as to why that would be done.

[BuyingThyme]

47. I don't see the point...

What do the IDs have to do with anything?

We were clearly attacked by Saudis, apparently in consort with the Bushes and the neocons, so why not accept the IDs for what they are?

Are you assuming that none of the truth has ever come out and thus we cannot believe anything we've been told?

I don't get it.

[kittenpants]

58. I'm referring to Mohammad Atta's wallet (or passport) being found unharmed

in the wreckage and that people here seem to believe it was planted because it is so unlikely that it would survive while the black boxes supposedly didn't. So I'm just asking the people who DO believe that, why, if a passport is to be planted, why not plant an Iraqi one...

I'm not saying my acceptance or denial of MIHOP/LIHOP hinges on this one thing, I'm just curious.

[BuyingThyme]

67. That's a softball question...

Mohammad Atta WAS used to make a connection to Iraq:

http://tinyurl.com/69q3y

[kittenpants]

86. oh yeah... the supposed meeting between him & Iraqis

so you believe it was planted then or not? I guess there are just a lot of different MIHOP ideas too that don't necessarily agree with each other. Please don't be condescending... I'm just trying to find out what people are basing their different views on.

[BuyingThyme]

98. I don't bother to speculate on whether or not it was planted...

I was just letting you know that your implication does not support you line of thought.

The ID WAS used (right or wrong) to establish a link to Iraq. So, if one believes it was planted, one might also believe it was planted to establish the link. You were trying to argue the opposite.

[kittenpants]

114. I never claimed a "line of thought" on whether or not they were planted.

You're assuming I'm trying to argue against you when I'm seriously just curious what people think.

edit--I also think you raised a ggod point about the admin trying to link Iraq via Atta, so you see I'm asking for info, not bc I'm trying to debunk ideas.

[BuyingThyme]

119. Your line of thought (in quotes):

"If they're manufactured, then why not attribute the blame to Iraq."

My response to your line of thought: They did.

Thanks

[kittenpants]

122. note the word "if" and the question mark at the end of the sentence.

thanks! I'm surprised a fan of spongebob could be so grumpy :)

[DistressedAmerican]

72. Again, I know archaeologists that worked with the debris.

LOTS and LOTS of oddball things showed up in perfect condition. The entire pile was not reduced to dust. Infact, one thing that generally survived well were peoples drivers, licences, work id's etc. It could just as easily be a coincidence. What we call an accident of preservation.

[kittenpants]

91. do you believe the black boxes might have survived? just wondering

since you know people who worked on recovery.

[DistressedAmerican]

106. I have no info on them

From what I was told the best preserved stuff was generally small and light. Maybe because it was blown out? Hard to say.

[BuyingThyme]

123. Firefighter Said Black Boxes Were Found at Ground Zero

Here:
http://www.voicesofsept11.org/news/102904.htm

And here:
http://www.summeroftruth.org/groundzero.html

[spooked911]

241. A firefighter wrote a book saying the black boxes WERE recovered.

see here:
http://summeroftruth.org/groundzero.html

But the FBI is covering it up.

So, more reason to be suspicious about the attacks.

[WoodrowFan]

113. it wasn't

it was another hijacker's passport and it was charred.

[frylock]

116. for the record, it wasn't atta's passport they found..

but a passport belonging to Satam Al Suqami.

[Sterling]

176. We ain't just invading Iraq if you have not noticed.

OBL's group serves as a Pan Arab enemy that can be used to justify an imaginable aggression in the eyes of Americans. It had to be him.

[mattclearing]

49. Interesting.

This would seem to imply a false flag op by OBL. Definitely an inconvenient fact for my personal theories. Thanks for this.

[The Magistrate]

60. There Is Always the Possibility, Ma'am

That the documents were not planted or concocted by a U.S. imtelligence agency.

Saudis have a comparatively easy time entering the U.S., which would make a Saudi identity and papers the tool of choice for infiltrators.

The jihadist are definitely interested in stirring trouble between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia, and in a revolution against the House of Saud. Tying the attack to Saudi Arabians could have been expected to assist both objects, by inflaming opinion in this country against Saudi Arabia, and by providing young Saudi militants with inspiring examples of action against the U.S., and by extension its puppet rulers in the Arabian peninsula, as the ihadis view the House of Saud to be.

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AZCat]

131. You continue to use this after I have pointed out your error - why?

I have pointed out your error regarding the pilots and their certification, yet you continue to use it as "evidence" of a 9/11 plot.

Why?

[DulceDecorum]

140. What error?

All I have done is put the FAA airman record next to the newspaper accounts.
If there is any mistake,
perhaps we should have a talk with Jane Garvey or Judith Miller.

HEY PEOPLE,
go look up the FAA airman certificates for the US pilots and crew. They are on the FAA website and one several aviation sites.

Then go type the name of the US pilot or crew-member into a search engine and see what the main stream media had to say about that person's life before 911.

Then compare the two.
Do not take my word for it.
Let your lying eyes have a look.

[AZCat]

144. I did go look up the certificates for the pilots, and I corrected you

I posted in response (post #86) to this claim in another thread.

I have checked this in the official FAA database with pilots whose entire records were right in front of me, and you are wrong - see my posts in the above link.

If you don't believe me, find a pilot friend who is willing to give you his or her information and check for yourself instead of relying on me.

I urge anyone else confused by this to do the same. The official FAA airmen database is here.

[Desertrose]

84. possibly wires got crossed....

...maybe the bush*co team or someone put the wrong disinformation out?

Perhaps factions were just not working together too well on this...I would imagine that it would take a lot of small groups working without knowledge of each other and that it would be easy not to always be on the same page...

Maybe they just wanted to drum up the Arab hating machine and forgot who were our "friends" and who "weren't"?

Also perhaps TPTB felt it was just toooo blatant to point the finger at Iraq when they wanted to go into Afghanistan first and they already had Bin Laden set up for that "war"....they just had to do a bit more lying and fear mongering and they got exactly what they wanted anyhow......

:shrug:

[pauliedangerously]

43. LIHOP with a facade of incompetence

If you think for one minute that these people are incompetent, then you're falling for their ploy. GWB may be ignorant, but it's not due to stupidity, it's due to laziness and a revulsion towards intellectualism that he developed while attending Harvard....and I don't even believe his phony "regular guy" act.

As long as everyone goes with the premise that the Bush administration is a bunch of incompetent idiots, then they have the advantage. You have to look past the superficial and ask youself why they say and do what they do. All of his public appearances are calculated and choreographed, and this crap has been in the making for decades...DECADES!!!

Everything you see on corporate television is calculated and choreographed. It's a big game the rich are playing on the populace and both sides of the political constituency are chock full of suckers.

LIHOP? Most definitely. MIHOP? Maybe. Incompetence? BWAHAHAHAHA. George Bush a "born again Christian?" BWAHAHAHAHA.

But hey, continue to fight amongst yourselves. You really think it's an accident that elections are so close? You think it's an accident that the populace is so evenly divided? Anyone have any idea how many think tanks there are out there? This crap was planned out decades in advance.

To understand what's going on, you have to think big. People are too bogged down because they take the rhetoric at face value and don't consider the thinking and planning behind it. If you find yourself getting bent out of shape when GWB gives a speech, get UNbent and consider all of the R & D that went into the act...or continue to let them manipulate your emotions and condition you to be satisfied with lesssss.

[BuyingThyme]

56. The people who take a fall for incompetence are usually the people...

who were, by design, left out of the loop.

For instance, and not to defend her, but I believe Condoleezza Rice was left out of the operational loop so that she could ultimately sit before Congress and lie. The NSA would be an obvious choice for this role.

This makes her no less guilty than the others because she would have had to agree to this arrangement. ...And she's one of the five best-known liars in the history of the United States.

[MissWaverly]

61. agree with you

I don't think we have to look in landfills for evidence, why did we, if we are the world's greatest superpower, not capture 1 single mastermind behind 911, the world was behind us after 911, we could have forged international agreements to bring them to justice, no, instead, we invaded Iraq and the rest is as they say history. Now the Americans are hated all over the world, and our resources are being consumed in a war that we started for no reason.

[DemonFighterLives]

99. Hi Paulidangerously

I basically agree with what you are saying. I would like to add some stuff to the thread. I don't really see Clinton in the planning, but who knows. He and dubbys daddy have Mena Arkansas and Murrah Federal building in common.
Pnac for sure laid it all out. Why was the steel sold so quickly and not examined for explosive evidence? I still don't believe that those planes could have taken down those buildings. Perhaps Marvin * has a clue. Building 7-no reason for falling or imploding. Black boxes not found??? Carpet of gold or carpet of bombs promised for Afghanistan. Cheney has all the interceptors playing games on the big day. No warnings= tons of warnings. Visitors attending flight school and left alone by the feds. Dubby took 9 months to get his players into position. My belief is firming up that dubby and the Neocons did just what they wanted. How they can get this far is beyond me. Like the Kennedy assassination, we may never know the truth.

[Just Me]

138. LIHOP and, yes, the neoCONspirators are crafty and very calculating.

I am always rather stunned when people don't acknowledge just how calculating the neoCONspirators have been,...and successfully so.

Everything they do is completely calculated.

[Swamp Rat]

169. yep n/t

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burn the bush]

57. a couple of things i want to know more about....

I read a story about the towers being in bad shape and having to come down which would cost billions because of their size. This is suppose to be one of the motives for the towers being targeted. I would like to know who owned the buildings at the time, who had it insured and can we get ahold of any prior inspection reports of those buildings.

the other story i read that i want to know more about is the one saying that two of the planes were remotely controlled. Is this possible? They suggested that it would be impossible for these basically untrained terrorist pilots to have made the turns these planes made on their own because the controls would be like lead to move into those configurations.

sorry, i don't know where i read these stories but would like to know more about them.

[kittenpants]

73. I hadn't heard the first point of the towers needing to be destroyed

anyway, but that's pretty interesting.

I also read something about remote controlled planes and I think there IS such technology available to the military... this just makes me wonder about all the supposed phone calls from the planes the planes referring to the terrorist on board killing the pilots...
I don't know what I find more far-fetched, that a poorly trained pilot could hit the towers with a jumbo jet OR that the planes were remote controlled, the phone calls faked, etc...

[burn the bush]

92. the terrorist could have actually been on board.

perhaps they didn't even know that they were going to die that day. They could have been told that they were taking the planes. That might explain why they were saudi mostly. If the 19 terrorist were on board, perhaps they were saudi because we didn't have any afghan plants but being friends with the saudi, maybe they provided our terrorist for us?

[DistressedAmerican]

111. It would be far easier to get someone in the cockpit

than plant some sort of remote control tech on board. They killed us with simplicity. Not high tech! They flew under our radar not over it.

[burn the bush]

125. i'm sure it would be easier. but it seems that the story i read

kinda acted like there are planes that are preset up with this type of technology and that it actually wasn't new technology.

[frylock]

117. remote controlled planes..

BOSTON (AP) — There's little doubt that landing a plane from the ground — technology that could prevent hijackers turning a commercial jet into a weapon — could soon be feasible. Whether it's a good idea or not is another question. Raytheon is one of several companies looking to use new satellite technology that could someday allow jets to be landed by people on the ground, in much the same way that hobbyists bring in their model airplanes by remote control. The company announced Monday that its technology had guided a Federal Express 727 to a safe landing on a New Mexico Air Force base in August — all without the need of a pilot. Raytheon says the technology, primarily designed to help navigation, could be useful in a remote landing system.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/techreviews/2001/10/2/remote-pilot.htm

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=Raytheon+lands+a+727&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=+Go+

[burn the bush]

150. is that the right link for the usa today article? I don't see the story

I wonder if we can find more evidence that those employees familiar with this technology really were on one of the planes.

[AZCat]

178. Remote landing technology has been around for a while

What the article is talking about (I think - your link doesn't work) is a system that could be used in case of hijacking or pilot incapacitation.

Remote guidance/landing has been around for at least twenty years - NASA used it in the flight tests of Boeing 720 leading up to the Controlled Impact Demonstration in 1984. There were 13 landings accomplished prior to the CID using remote control.

[Garbo 2004]

88. Port authority owned it but it a 99 yr lease had been signed

by Silverstein and a shopping mall company earlier in 2001. http://money.cnn.com/2001/04/26/deals/wtc/

[Sir Jeffrey]

62. If anyone has trouble with LIHOP, read about the Letelier affair...

Another strange terrorist attack involving a convenient anti-Bush target, of which Bush's CIA was all over it to get at Chile.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2000/092300a.html

They have done it before. They are doing it now. They will do it in the future if we don't stop them.

[TheOriginalAmerican]

66. There's no proof of a connection.

We just know that the Bush and Bin Laden families have been connected in the past. Plus, the US has a habit of getting in bed with the enemy before fighting them as the enemy.

I do also think that Bin Laden was endorsing Bush with his video because it made people want to vote for him. That made me wonder if the two weren't connected. I suppose they don't have to be connected though. Bin Laden might just see war man Bush as better being able to promote his terrorist agenda with his constant wars.

At the same time, there's no proof to link Bush and Bin Laden as far as I know.

[BuyingThyme]

70. The links between Bush & Bin Laden are INFINITE compared to...

those between Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden.

We went to war over the latter. What do we do about the former?

[Sterling]

115. That is funny, first you post "There's no proof of a connection."

Then you post "We just know that the Bush and Bin Laden families have been connected in the past.".

Under these circumstances we need to be able to have an independent investigation into these and other connections. So far Bush has made that impossible.

[leesa]

76. I have no doubt BushCo did it. The fact alone that they resist every

investigation into that day and that they have promoted every single person who fouled up their job that day, and that they tampered with evidence (shipping the rubble to Japan for construction, hiding the two black boxes they found at WTC, etc...) speaks volumes.

They did it and I don't buy LIHOP because the timing was critical. They had already planned the Afghanistan invasion for "when the snow flies" and they had begun mobilization. It had to happen early in their term for them to be able to pull off that phony invasion and Iraq. The PATRIOT Act was already written and ready to go after their Pearl Harbor.

[BuyingThyme]

82. Oh no! More logic and information.

Where's your faith?

[UdoKier]

79. It could be that their incompetence caused 9-11.

But judging from all the cover-ups and weird coincidences surrounding 9-11, I tend to thing they LIHOP.

[Spazito]

80. When you combine the PNAC plan with the total...

ignoring of the 52, repeat, 52 warning received prior to 9/11 as well as the newly-released documents with the memos from Clarke and one would have to consider LIHOP, imo.

One more addition: The people who signed on to PNAC are now at the heart of the bush admin, coincidence? I think not.

[librechik]

87. I'm strongly MIHOP. And part of my job is factchecking

for a daily news program. I was convinced by an avalanche of small facts that hardly anyone else in the media-consuming world was privileged to see. I've spent the last few years handing hot smoking guns to mangement and watch as upper management kicks them all under the couch.

Believe me, the tip of the iceberg has only emerged when people like us here at DU grab it and pull it out for a moment. There is an army of determined demons working to bury it again.

MIHOP, IMO , as horrifying a concept as it is, is the one theory so far that explains it all (as far as anything unknown can, of course--if Flt 77 didn't hit the Pentagon, what happened to the people? We don't know.)

I also believe most of these guys are really really incompetent and stupid. One doesn't rule out the other. In fact there are geniuses among them (Norquist, Rove, Kristol, Gingrich, Buchanan) but the vast majority are just a bunch of greedy, incompetent pigs who are willfully stupid, hate to think, hate those who think, and delight in paying others to do that for them, because to them it's showing contempt, not need.

These idiots are used with gusto by those holding the levers. Since before Kennedy's assassination, they've been waiting and building to this opportunity. It must vex them no end when one of the gang does something really stupid and gets caught out for the greedy incompetent pig he is.

[kittenpants]

94. why do you say a plane didn't hit the pentagon?

I've heard this before, but I'm not sure how it ties in to MIHOP.

[librechik]

97. I said "if"

but go here and make up your own mind.

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

[kittenpants]

102. thanks for the link

[RBHam]

95. Watch this video...

Use logic...

http://shadowgov.info/video_wtc7.html

[RBHam]

96. Or are you a "coincidence theorist?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3091343

[kittenpants]

100. please don't talk to me like I'm an idiot! I'm asking because I want

to understand why it would be falsified. why are you so angry about me wanting to know?

[RBHam]

103. I was asking DistressedAmerican...

And I don't mean to "sound' condescending...

It's just that after 4 years of screaming MIHOP into the wind - I get a little cranky.

I KNEW the National Security State was behind 9-11 - the moment I saw it happening that day.

Cui Bono?

There is only one convincing answer...

[vincent_vega_lives]

246. Hmmm

"I KNEW the National Security State was behind 9-11 - the moment I saw it happening that day."

Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s
Function: noun

2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge

[Sterling]

104. Most DUers thought that initially, then scratched the surface......

It's a hard idea to handle, but sadly it seems that 9-11 was indeed planed as a pretext for what has occurred since.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WoodrowFan]

112. nope

not for a second. MIHOP is about as plausible as creationism or holocaust denial and it's proponents show about as much respect for the facts...

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WoodrowFan]

128. I don't argue with creationists either

and I'm tired of reading the same crap and lies from the MIHOPers. There is no "weight" there, just lies "no plane hit the Pentagon" and paranoia (I think Bush did it cause I hate him) No facts, no analysis, no reason. Go read the 9-11 forum and the skeptics there if you want to learn something. Besides, MercutoATC and the Magistrate have tons more patience than I do for the tinfoil crowd. I have better things to do.

bye bye

[DulceDecorum]

137. We got the same reaction

when we were arguing against the Iraq war
and saying point blank that
Iraq had no functioning weapons of mass destruction.

We got the same reaction when we said that Bush was hiring public relations people to make him look good.

And we are saying point blank that 911 has NOT been properly investigated and much of what is known is being trashed and removed from public view.

February 11, 2005
The striking findings of the staff report, dated August 2004, emerged after an investigation by The New York Times.
The full version of the report was blocked from public release by the White House for more than five months. A declassified and heavily edited version was filed in the National Archives two weeks ago.
So many reports on Osama bin Laden or his al-Qaeda terrorist network were received by the FAA in the months before 9/11, that between March and May it conducted classified briefings on the al-Qaeda threat for security officials at 19 of the busiest airports in the United States.
The report said that the 52 warnings on al-Qaeda sent to the FAA in that period amounted to half of all the intelligence reports it received.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1480093,00.html

[Sterling]

151. Yes they have so much patience they avoid rational discussion.

And given the opportunity apparently are willing to delete threads and stifle discussion on the subject.

[AZCat]

154. No threads have been deleted

And if you think that moving threads to the September 11 forum is stifling discussion, then we disagree.

[Sterling]

157. Yes we do. The people who want to discuss it and expose new people to the

info think it is stifling. The people who want to stifle it don't. Not like you are fooling anyone. In fact the whole 9-11 myth is not fooling people anymore. At least not within the rank and file Dem's and progressives. That is the great thing. Your arguments lose on a level playing field.

And yes threads were locked until enough people complained and got it moved to the dungeon where you like them. The whole idea is silly. I see many threads on topics that have their own exclusive forums all the time.

I can't think of many topics that are more general and relevant to our political compass than WTF happened on 9-11. The rights entire agenda has hinged on it before it ever even happened.

[AZCat]

161. How, exactly, am I trying to "fool anyone?"

And please be explicit - this thread is filled with enough shadowy accusations as it is.

[Warren Stupidity]

162. in fairness to the hands-over-ears folks

the implications of LIHOP/MIHOP are so appalling, so hideous, that many cannot bring themselves to an honest analysis of the evidence. They have to start from the presumption that al qaeda acted alone. They have to insist that all other theories meet an impossible burden of proof.

The FAA ops director on 9/11, 32 years of experience, can't remember the hijack protocol, can't do what has been done routinely for 20 years or more, can't scramble NORAD's fighters to intercept. Just a coincidence?

I guess.

Not even a little doubt?

[Sterling]

167. I understand that but they don't have to act like total douche bags over

it. Really how hard is it to humble yourself enough to look at something this serious in an intellectual and not emotional light? Apparently very hard for a lot of people but it still surprises me.

I really over estimated America's love for freedom and fair play. I want to know if my leaders are taking us down with stupid and immoral plans. I do not assume our country is immune to the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Franco, Nero........ It seems rather obvious at this point we have some ruthless immoral people in charge right now and it should be considered a duty scrutinize their every move without being blinded by faith or false patriotism.

[Sterling]

200. Actually you are arguing with people interested in this subject.

Just not very well. I hope you do better when you "don't" argue with creationists.

[DulceDecorum]

134. Holocaust denial?

Is that when the bank REFUSES to pay?
And the Finance Minister tries to stonewall restitution?

Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu tried on Tuesday to torpedo a government-sponsored bill to return money to Holocaust survivors, a bill he had previously supported.
<snip>
In a meeting yesterday with Knesset opposition leader Yosef Lapid (Shinui), who had initiated the bill, Netanyahu expressed concern over the large amounts of money the treasury would have to pay out to Holocaust survivors and their heirs.
Lapid estimates the amount between NIS 100 million and NIS 200 million.
<snip>
A parliamentary commission of inquiry recently found that the state is holding approximately NIS 500 million belonging to Jews who died in the Holocaust.
Commission chairwoman Colette Avital (Labor) called Netanyahu's behavior "scandalous." "It is simply unbelievable that the finance minister of the State of Israel is battling Holocaust survivors, and trying in every way possible to prevent their heirs from receiving the funds that are legally theirs," Avital said.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/538370.html

Those are FACTS,
unless you want to diss Ha'aretz.
That holocaust has NOTHING TO DO WITH 911.
People just say that to derail discussions on September 11, 2001.

Whether you like it or not, sir,
we are DAMN WELL going to get to the bottom of 911
and we are DAMN WELL going to bring the culprits to justice
and we are AMAZED
(just as amazed as Commission chairwoman Colette Avital)
that some here are actively trying to thwart this endeavor.

[ailsagirl]

118. Interesting scientific website re 9/11

It's worth a look

SPINE: The Scientific Panel Investigating Nine Eleven

The Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven consists of scientists and engineers who have been analyzing the events of September 11, 2001 with a view to developing further information about the alleged terror attacks.

With very few exceptions, the findings of the Panel point to massive deception by the Bush White House and official organs of the US military organization.

The media, as far as we can determine, have been completely taken in by the White House scenario and continue to struggle to make it all fit together.


http://physics911.ca/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=2

[ailsagirl]

152. Whatever the answer, it appears it could have been avoided

[DistressedAmerican]

164. I don't put much faith in the "Scientists" on this "scientific panel"

No offense but, most of them do not sound like specialists in much of anything to do with the incident. Social and Human Health Theorist, Cell Phone Engineer? Where are the structural engineers? Folks like that. Not really a "blue ribbon panel".

However, I encourage everyone to check them out and decide for yourself. This certainly won't be settled here. Good discussion though.
=====================================

here's the list from the site:
Walter E. Davis - Social & Human Health Theorist Member
A. K. Dewdney - Mathematician, Computer Scientist, Biologist Member
John DiNardo - Physics Teacher Member
Derrick Grimmer - Physicist Member
Jim Hoffman - Physician, Engineering Background Member
Eric Huffschmid - Software Developer Member
Joseph D. Keith - Aeronautical Engineer Member
Tim Howells - Computer Scientist Member
Jerry Longspaugh - Aeronautical Engineer Member
Scott Loughrey - Computer Programmer Member
Brad Molineux - Cellphone Engineer Member
Sid Walker - Webmaster & Editor Member

[Sterling]

173. "Scientists" on this "scientific panel" That sounds like a fundie, lol.

nt

[ICantBelieve]

129. Just plain didn't care...

I think they just plain didn't care. I don't think they knew exactly this was going to happen and "Let it happen on purpose." But I do think, "Ohhh, we can use this" came out of their mouths pretty quickly, at least by the 12th. And that's disgusting. And that's soooo disgusting that coupled with their negligence, it doesn't upset me too much that some people are saying LIHOP. After all, the disaster they created in Iraq has killed more people than 9/11, and they definitely made that happen on purpose.

[in_cog_ni_to]

133. MIHOP. They needed a war to further their PNAC agenda.

911 was their springboard to get that war. No doubt in my mind. ESPECIALLY since bin Laden isn't even thought of. :grr:

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

139. Have you read this? If not, you should.

It's very loooooooooooooooooooooong, but worth the read.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/PDF/Commonwealth.pdf

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

158. More like well funded think tanks of evil witch docters...

Think big friend. This is for all the marbles not some five and dime larceny.

[in_cog_ni_to]

159. Something better? Has someone from the administration been prosecuted

and I missed it? I think it sounds so far fetched....on purpose. That's what Cheney wanted. Someday the truth will come out. If it was MIHOP, someone, someday will talk. It's human nature.

[Name removed]

181. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LunaC]

142. The case for MIHOP

is spelled out for you here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3100087

[DistressedAmerican]

175. Thanks for posting that. I really AM interested

I love your summary of the PNAC! It is well done indeed.

Persoanlly I do not see however, the evidential ink between PNAC's global imperialist ambitions and the events that occured that day. Just my two cents.

Thanks again. Great addition to the discussion! We should see more like that!

[liberalpragmatist]

146. I'm with you

I don't think it was MIHOP or even LIHOP. I think it was incompetence and disinterest.

[seemslikeadream]

147. Ashcroft Flying High - July 26, 2001

WASHINGTON, July 26, 2001

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines."
FBI spokesman

(CBS) Fishing rod in hand, Attorney General John Ashcroft left on a weekend trip to Missouri Thursday afternoon aboard a chartered government jet, reports CBS News Correspondent Jim Stewart.

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines," an FBI spokesman said. Neither the FBI nor the Justice Department, however, would identify what the threat was, when it was detected or who made it.

A senior official at the CIA said he was unaware of specific threats against any Cabinet member, and Ashcroft himself, in a speech in California, seemed unsure of the nature of the threat.

http://propagandamatrix.com/ashcroft_flying_high.html

[clem_c_rock]

171. Debunk "the New Pearl Harbor", "Crossing the Rubicon"

and then take a good read through the PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses", then, for good measure debunk the 911 timeline here:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project.

Then for historical perspective look into the Gulf of Tonkin incident, the Burning of the Rieshtag, and Operation Northwoods

After that, if you can rip apart all these findings intelligently, go ahead and believe all the Incompetence theories, and Coincidence theories you want to.

We've also got a magic bullet theory you'd be interested in for a very cheap price.

[DistressedAmerican]

179. I have already said I am not here to debunk every little theory or detail.

I wanted to see what the general feeling was out thwere and learn a little in the process. May I just repeat what I said way back in post #8:

"I am just curious, not really about hard debunking. The theories are plausible enough. I just don't really buy it myself. I am no expert and by no means want to imply that folks that do believe this are nuts or anything. I'll leave it open for the most part to discussion, if people want to go there in detail."

If you think flaming me out is helpful, I do not have the time.

Why don't we start here and you briefly summarize what you think are the most important arguments from those sources. Then we can discuss the ideas.

Just flinging down a gauntlet and saying in effect "debunk everything!" is not getting us anywhere.

As far as do I think that governments will lie to the people to start a war? Sure I do. The lies here were these two:
1. WMD in Iraq
2. Bin Laden in bed with Saddam on 9/11

Those are the lies that were told. Bin Laden didn't need shadowy "pentagon" or "think tank" help to hatch and complete this mission any more than he needed Saddam's.

[Sterling]

208. It's not about theories, it's about what you make of key facts.

These books reference a lot of info you would need to make an informed opinion on this subject. Don't wrap yourself in the "I can't be bothered to read" excuse.

This is a very complicated subject with a lot of info to cover before you can really judge anything for yourself. Some of it is history some of it is recent news material but it is huge. Just chill and keep an open mind.

[Hoping4Change]

180. The recent NYT story about the numerous warnings prior to

9-11 about hijackings should put Rumsfeld's June 1, 2001 changes to a set of procedures for responding to hijackings back in the spotlight. This alteration gives credence to LIHOP because Rumsfeld knew hijackings were a real possibility and it was changes to the line of command that thwarted the Air Force that day.


From 9-11 Review.com:

"There is a set of procedures for responding to hijackings. In
particular, these procedures were changed on June 1, 2001 while
Rumsfeld was in power as our Secretary of Defense, in a document
called:
"CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF INSTRUCTION,
J-3 CJCSI 3610.01A"
(http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/cjcsd/cjcsi/3610_01a.p... )

"APPROVAL"

The usage of the word "approval" is the major change here to the
existing hijacking response procedures. While the text of the
document tries to link this "approval" to the previous orders
"DODD 3025.15," the approval is now required BEFORE providing any
assistance at all. Previously, approval would be required to
respond to a situation with lethal force.

This June 1st update to the orders stopped all military
assistance in its tracks UNTIL approval from Donald Rumsfeld
(the "Secretary of Defense") could be granted -- which, by his
own admission, it was not.'


snip


"Enter the patsy. Rumsfeld wouldn't be a mastermind if he hadn't
thought of a fall guy to take the blame, if needed. This brings
us to Tom White, the former Enron executive, appointed to be
Secretary of the Army, and more importantly the "executive agent
for the Department of Defense" on May 31, 2001 --
ONE DAY BEFORE THE NEW HIJACKING INSTRUCTIONS WERE ISSUED!


http://911review.com/means/standdown.html

[WoodrowFan]

185. The 9-11 forum is full of great info.

For those who are really interested in 9-11 go to the DU’s 9-11 forum and look for posts by any of these folks especially (names in no special order)..

MercutioATC
Boloboffin
Sweet Pea
Gbwarming
AZCat
Vincent_vega_lives
RH
LARED
The Magistrate
(my apologies to any tinfoil-debunkers I missed)

MercutioATC’s ongoing detailed debunking of that BS no-plane-hit-the-pentagon video alone is worth the price of admission. It shows just how much the tinfoil crowd seem to rely on, um, being less than truthful. But then, you’ll learn more from these folk’s posts than you ever will on any combination of tinfoil sites. Watch also who actually answers question and who doesn’t and who makes suggestions that are physically impossible. Then, finally, check the rest of the links and videos sold on the 9-11 “truth” (cough cough) sites and wonder why so many also seem to be linked to the far loonie right wing. An easy test is to go to their site’s search box and type in “holocaust”. A shocking number of sites will also contain the nastest neonazi crap you’d ever seen. The CT types seem to think the debunkers are somehow in bed with shrub because we don’t believe the tinfoil stuff and because we think the bush admin was stupid and lazy before 9-11. Given that many of the tinfoilers seem to be getting their info from the far right wing.. well, whatever...

[AZCat]

192. Unfortunately the September 11 forum is viewed as a "ghetto"

It is the view of several posters that the September 11 forum is an inappropriate place for the discussion of issues related to September 11th because it has become a "ghetto" where few members of DU go.

I appreciate the effort but I think you better have a fire extinguisher ready because this idea of a separate forum (and the list of names) is not popular and I predict it will garner a heated response.

[DistressedAmerican]

193. Perhaps it was its ghetto status that has kept me of even

realizing it existed until starting this thread. It is not like I am a novice. I just do not keep up with all of the issues forums. My apologies to the moderators for a "misplaced" thread and thanks for bearing with us!

Personally I'd be happy with GD and GDP. Not my site though and they ARE doing a great job! Props to all DU staff!

[AZCat]

195. Its current status is fairly recent

It was stuck in a sub-forum for a long time (under "Foreign Affairs") and then last fall it was moved to "Archived and Leftover Forums". It has only been in its current spot for a few weeks, where it is much more accessible - donating members can now add it to the "My Forums" list (that's what I do) so you can see it in the lobby.

[DistressedAmerican]

199. After this, I think I will add it.

Interesting wherever you stand on the issue. Stanks for the head's up.

[Sterling]

202. It comes up all the time in GD because it is at the foundation....

of a lot of people's world view. Keep reading about this stuff.

[Sterling]

206. several? try most.....

We discuss many topics in GD that also have their own forum. There are a very limited number of posters who are afraid people might think we are bad if they see we think Bush was in on 9-11 so they work very hard to suppress discussion on this topic.

The irony is they are a very small minority of DUers and are trying to control what the rest of us are discussing. Don't encourage these people. Don't be afraid to ask questions and get answers. Don't take anyones word for anything just think for yourself and you will get a sense of what this is all about.

BTW every poll taken shows a majority of DUers think LIHOP/MIHOP.

[AZCat]

210. Who is trying to control the discussion?

Other than the promotion of a forum set up to discuss September 11th, I don't see any attempts to control the discussion.

About the polls - they only represent the people that choose to participate and does not necessarily represent the opinions of DUers as a whole. Not only that, but why in the world would I let the opinion of the majority determine what I think or how I behave?

[Sterling]

213. A handful of posters would like to enforce their view of what

we should discuss on the board. You know who most of them are I am sure. Some go out of thier way to post attacks on threads in an effort to get them locked. Some even become mods and delete threads and posts they don't like.

The polls are consistent and many. Your "silent majority" not with standing. :hi:

[AZCat]

214. Unfortunately there are those who would like to control things...

Though I think they are not limited to one side of the discussion.

I am not sure what you mean by "You know who most them are I am sure."
I think it is difficult to determine but maybe I am not as attuned as you are to such behavior.

Your allegations of biased moderating I have not seen any evidence of, and I would be surprised if it did happen. Perhaps you should discuss it with Skinner rather than commenting about it here.

Regarding the polls - I never said anything about a "silent majority", but that it is specious to extrapolate to the DU community from a voluntary poll. Consistency is not an indicator either because it could be the same group participating every time. I'm not alleging that DU doesn't lean one way or another, just pointing out that your method is invalid.

[Sterling]

219. Personally I welcome respectful disagreement.

Like I said the Washington Generals of the 9-11 forum serve a purpose sometimes in challenging poorly supported theories and ideas. Unfortunately there is no sense of objectivity and when something is discussed that is relevant it gets the same reaction as the stuff that is not so rational.

It is clear there is an agenda other than finding truth and that offends me and many others who want to have grown up discussions on the topic.

As for the polls like I said there are plenty of them and they have all consistently showed people in favor of MIHOP/LIHOP. If you take part in these threads supporters of the theory as well as detractors here are very vocal.

The polls so far have been land slides and had substantial participation. It is clear a majority feel that at least LIHOP was likely. No it's not scientific enough to give an exact percentage but I am gald I am not trying to support the contention that these polls don't reflect the prevalent attitude of the membership. I don't envy you if you have chosen that as a task on this thread.

You can even see this in discussions not directly related to 9-11. Whenever it comes up in any thread it gets great support.

[AZCat]

221. The key word being "respect"

I think it is important for all sides in a discussion to respect the other's opinion. Unfortunately this doesn't happen - all I can do is ensure that the posts I make do not violate the DU code of conduct.

This idea of an agenda has been around as long as I have been a poster here. I have seen no evidence of it. If it is clear to you then I wonder how we differ in our criteria.

Again on the polls - I am not claiming the polls indicate anything. Quite the opposite.

By the way - what is this "Washington Generals" reference? I don't get it.

[Sterling]

237. Respect to me means not using freeper tactics like...

The good ol appeal to ridicule and straw man. That is the usual treatment people who truly want to discuss this get from those who fancy themselves debunker's.

I did not come into the 9-11 discussion with an agenda either way. I still try to remain objective in spite of what I have learned but I am always open to new proof either way.

I would probably pay a great deal of money to anyone who could set my mind at ease on the subject be convincing me I am wrong.

[Sterling]

205. Yes those people are great.

at cherry picking the most unlikely theories and ignoring most of the compelling information. They are like the Washington Generals of the 9-11 forum. They help weed out some of the worst theorizing and there weak arguments help you realize how likely it is that there was criminal involvement in a cover up of 9-11.

It is amazing people would spend so much time trying to get others not to discuss something.

[ComerPerro]

191. LIHOP. Why wouldn't they?

You think 3000 innocent American deaths worries them?

Look at what it got them. Control of everything, and a potentially limitless reign.

Letting 9/11 happen was just their way of generating much needed "political capital". And they intend to spend it.

Just ask yourself a few things:

Why wouldn't they do it? Do they really care if Americans die?

and

What would the nation look like had the events of 9/11 not occured? Where would the Republicans be? Where would Bush be? How could they control the public and pimp their war profiteering without using 9/11? How would they have any claim to legitimacy whatsoever?

[DistressedAmerican]

197. I have never claimed that they didn't clearly profit from it.

I just do not think that is proof of complicity over sheer incompetence followed by shrewd exploitation of the incident.

I think Bush is as evil as the next DUer (Please, see my website link below for plenty of examples). I just do not think that this is their style nor that they were up to the task if they wanted.

I keep seeing these "who stood to benefit" list of questions posts offered up as some sort of proof. They are not! They are just a bunch of hypothetical questions that can be answered just the same whether I am right or you are.

Here are a few more for ya:
If they wanted to use is as their excuse to do Saddam, why did they pin it on Bin Laden?

If PNACers are responsible why is Bin Laden taking credit on the videos?

Didn't Bin Laden get a significant boost in his recruiting, fund raising after getting credit for the attack?

Doesn't Bin Laden stand to benefit just as much as Bushco from our invasion of Iraq?

Isn't it just possible Bin Laden just played the monkey?

All of these questions have multiple possible answers. That is why your hypotheticals are not evidence. It is like a prosecutor walking in with nothing but a possible motive and resting his case after asking "Well, Didn't the defendant stand to benefit?" Maybe they did. It doesn't prove guilt. It just sets the possible conditions. That is what you are doing setting the possibility.

I'll stipulate that the conditions existed by which neocons could benefit from the event. It is a start but, it is not case closed by any means!

Give me some evidence, please.

[Sterling]

203. They asked for/ predicted the event in their PNAC doc.

It's not like they just got lucky.

[achtung_circus]

198. I like to believe

that I'm a member of the "free world". I don't believe in either MIHOP or LIHOP.

Let it happen? Yes
On Purpose? NO.

It's just that they are so insular in their thinking with such zealous belief in their own rightness, that they didn't listen, didn't think, didn't act.

Now they are desparately covering their tracks while simultaneously using 911 for their own purposes.

[Sterling]

204. I would like to believe a lot of things.....

It's not like anyone wants this to be true. However wishing it away won't help.

[Sterling]

207. The "vocal minority" are the detractors.....

A handful of people throw a hissy fit anytime this comes up. Most of us a very interested in this topic. You will find that the offended are useful for insults and personal attacks but very rarely make a contribution in terms of information.

[DearAbby]

217. I am leaning towards LIHOP ...Because to believe that it MIHOP is

too scary to think about...The memo,52 alerts, and the fact that Ashcroft stopped flying commercial airlines in the summer of '01..means they knew and took the threat seriously enough to make that precaution...but did not imform the public for their own reasons.

[Sterling]

218. It is very scary. I don't know how much more than LIHOP.

Both are far worse than I ever expected from our own government. Unfortunately I feel very naive now that I ever felt that way given what I know now.

[Sterling]

220. Wow that took a long time did it not.

It's a little late to move this now. People already read it. On the bright side it's cold comfort my points on discussion of this subject here is confirmed by this action.

[AZCat]

222. Hm.

I wonder why they moved it. I asked for a couple of older threads to be moved (they were getting lost) but I didn't ask for this one (I'm following my 24 hour system).

:shrug:

[Sterling]

223. It's nice of you to say that. I hope you are serious.

There is no reason people like you and I and others who may never take the time to go to this forum cannot discuss this in GD just like every other topic that has it's own forum. Here is a short list of the topics I am talking about.:

2004 Election Results and Discussion
Activism & Events
Campaign 2006 & 2008
Choice & Reproductive Freedom
Democratic Party
Disability Issues & Activism
Drug Policy
Economy, Budget, Taxes & Jobs
Education
Environment & Energy
Foreign Affairs & Defense
GLBT Issues
Gun Rights & Gun Control
Health Care
Homeland Security
Israeli/Palestinian Affairs
Justice, Courts & The Law
Legislative Forum
Media
Poverty & Economic Development
Race & Equality
Religious Freedom & Church-State Issues
Rural Issues
Seniors & Aging
September 11
Veterans and Military Issues
Women's Rights & Issues

If all thread on these topics were moved GD would be very dead.

The 9-11 discussion policy is flawed and I feel being abused by some mods. I can understand moving very detailed specific minutia threads into the appropriate forums but it is unreasonable to pretend that 9-11 discussion cannot be GD as well in many contexts. It is pretty fundamental to how you view Bush and our current situation so a lot of discussions about this will in fact be of general interest to the average DUers.

[AZCat]

224. I saw your post in ATA

Thanks for asking about this in ATA. I don't know what Skinner's response will be.

What are you not sure that I'm serious about? I've said a number of times that I want threads here after a while because that way people can still participate in them. If they stay in GD eventually they become archived and will no longer accept posts. In the September 11 forum things move slowly enough that it takes much longer for that to happen. Look at the front page here - there are threads going back a loooong ways - that could never happen in GD.

I want to promote discussion about September 11th. I just think using this forum can help with that.

[Sterling]

225. I just think using this forum can help with that

It could be a useful tool if it is used as a place where things are discussed in a very specific context. however I don't only want to discuss this with people who seem to be obsessed with it on either side. I like sharing info with newbies and people who do not focus specifically on 9-11.

For example I hardly ever even visit this forum. I am interested in a lot of other topics. I have always posted on GD more than any other forum. When I visit this forum I find the same group of people having the same arguments over and over.

It's amazing how people who think there is nothing to this LIHOP stuff would spend far more time in this forum than someone like me who actually has an interest in learning and discussing the subject in a mature and open minded fashion.

Right now it seems this forum is being used as a convenient way to keep this topic out of the heavily traversed parts of the site. This also seems to suit the detractors who seem to live in the 9-11 forum waiting to disrupt discussions.

[Sterling]

226. Why?

Because it is hard to keep up with who is who and who feels what about anything on a thread like this when so many people lower the discussion with insults and such.

I am generally used to detractors being stubborn, rude and disingenuous. You seem to have a genuine interest in discussing and learning about the topic. I applaud that regardless of you support or lack of for any theory.

Healthy discussion and disagreement can help separate facts from dis info. That benefits all of us IMHO.

[AZCat]

229. Thanks.

Again, it's all about respect. I am stubborn, though - there are some things that can't be changed.

Disinformation does get in the way. I would like it if the government were forthcoming with information about September 11th but in light of their refusal to cooperate much of the work done is by those unconnected with important resources. Sometimes I feel that the whole 9/11 movement is a blind person groping about while a perfectly healthy person stands by and refuses to help. It is difficult and frustrating - I can see why people are a bit sharp.

If we all can't work together to form some coherent "story" about what really happened on that day the government certainly isn't going to do the work for us. While I'm not a LI/MIHOP supporter (too much of a skeptic to support anything) I'm also not blind - the Bush Administration has been actively working to cover up the truth.

[Sterling]

233. Good analogy. Yes the "movement" is pretty weak.

That being said there should not have to be a "movement" this should be something our party leaders dealt with from day one.

I think it is impossible to get access to the evidence you would need to close the case on these guys with google and hard work. You have to give the movement credit however. They have managed to uncover a hell of a lot without any official help. Bless their efforts even if some of the theories they develop can be off the mark.

[AZCat]

238. It is a tricky problem

I think part of the problem is that we lump (by necessity) several of the classic elements of problem solving into one big mess. Brainstorming intermingles with critical analysis, sourcing evidence is difficult because of hazy chains of evidence and disappearing URLs, a lack of "structure" means that nobody gets to direct traffic at a particular area.

I don't think we'll ever get a formal structure adopted (nor do I think it would be a good idea) but through people like Paul Thompson we can gain access to the most important constituency - like-minded people without access to sites like DU. I don't know if we will ever manage to reach members of Congress (they seem to lack a knowledge even of PNAC) so we may have to content ourselves to knowing some of the truth, and understand that Bush and his cronies may actually get away with whatever they did.

Regardless I'd rather have the movement (flaws and all) than not. I don't think the wilder theories do any harm (other than result in some nasty flame wars) but I do think the other work does do good.