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Was Cincinatti airport shut down the night of 9/10?

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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 01:00 AM
Original message
Was Cincinatti airport shut down the night of 9/10?
Edited on Mon May-17-04 01:06 AM by NecessaryOnslaught
This is from a friend that was travelling out of N. Kentucky INtl airport to Philadelphia Intl airport on the night of 9/10. Her flight, in addition to many others, was canceled due to "adverse weather". While I can not confirm that the entire airport was shut down, according to Nichole all the flights in her terminal were canceled. The weather in Cincinatti was fine and when Nichole learned that her flight was cancelled, she called her mother who informed her that the weather in Philadelphia was fine. She was shuttled to a nearby hotel and recalls that hundreds and hundreds of others were as well.
------------------------

Here is the initial flght schedule. She was scheduled to leave Cincinatti 9/10-10:45 PM and arrive in Philadelphia 9/11-12:21 AM--This flight was canceled.

Here is the notice of cancellation- Reason for issuance:weather.




Here is the ticket for the new flight, scheduled to leave Cincinatti at 7 AM- 9/11/2001



So she had to wait over 8 hours for a new flight due to adverse weather, although the weather was fine.

Philadelphia weather, 9/10/2001
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KPHL/2001/9/10/DailyHistory.html
Cincinatti weather 9/10/2001
http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/KLUK/2001/9/10/DailyHistory.html

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PaDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. The weather was fine...
very interesting..Wonder if any DU'ers were planning to fly from Cincinnati?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 01:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Some cities have ordinances about jetport noise.
If the flight was delayed, maybe past 1:00AM ETA in Philadelphia, they may have a city ordinance because of noise generated on the approach?

If that was the case, next flight would be the next morning.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I respectfully disagree
I can't imagine that a successful airline would schedule a flight knowing full well that noise restrictions were in place, only to cancel the flight because of these restrictions. Again, this wasn't just one flight, but the entire terminal. Obviously this person didn't walk the entire airport to see if all flights were canceled, but from what she saw, many were. And why lie about the reason for flight cancellation?
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Of course, I have no idea why the entire terminal would have
canceled flights. The ticket show the ETA in Phillidelphia @ 12:20 AM. I think if the delay put the ETA past one, that would do it. I can't vouch why all flights were cancelled, that sounds very odd.
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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-17-04 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. It's a common excuse
Often cited if a plane is nearly empty and they think it'll be cheaper to put them up in a hotel than to operate the flight- the industry was going into a slump at that time. They also don't want to admit that tech issues scrubbed a flight because the pax expect them to have another plane ready. Or it's possible, as another poster suggested, that they missed the curfew- the curfew hours depend on aircraft type, with the strictest rules applied to the noisier planes.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. Where there is smoke
there is also fire.

Aired September 10, 2001 - 14:05
NATALIE ALLEN, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to another look at that fire in the Newark Airport in New Jersey that has caused many flights to be stopped for the moment. If you noticed, it looks like the smoke is a tad lessened from the significant smoke that this fire was generating just a short while ago
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/10/bn.02.html
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/09/10/newark.fire/

ORELON SIDNEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It looks like right now, we have ground stop for the Newark airport. What that means is that traffic from certain airports is not allowed to land. The affected airports so far are LaGuardia and JFK. Of course, Those are two majors -- probably the major airports in the northeast. Air traffic from those two locations will not be allowed to land at Newark.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/10/bn.01.html

And the very next day they had a FULL ground stop
and NO planes from ANYWHERE
were permitted to land.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Smoke? Yes. Fire Yes. Conspiracy? No.
Edited on Tue May-18-04 02:09 PM by MercutioATC
We see ground stops to airports all of the time. They're mostly due to weather impacting either the route of flight or the airport itself, but sometimes it's due to other things (fires, equipment failures, etc.).

Today we were ground stopped for O'Hare for a while. We've also been ground stopped for Newark, LaGuardia, and JFK for weather this week. Cleveland was ground stopped a couple of years ago because a squirrel chewed through a wire and took out their radar system. White Plains airport was once ground stopped for...and I'm not making this up...a naked man on the runway (seems a man had taken off all of his clothing and darted onto the runway...it took the police a while to round him up because he kept running from them).

Ground stops happen on an almost daily basis. They're nothing unusual.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Conspiracy?
Al-Awadi, who lived through the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait in 1990, said he arrived in New York last year on 10 September to work on a film related to the Gulf War. He ended up filming the city for several straight days, capturing the raw aftermath of the terrorist attacks.
http://www.rferl.org/features/2002/09/12092002163959.asp
http://usembassy.state.gov/islamabad/wwwh02091205.html

Kuwaiti filmmaker Walid Al-Awadi is known for his deeply personal works about Iraq's invasion of Kuwait and the Persian Gulf War. His current project "Dreams without sleep" documents people affected directly or indirectly by the World Trade Center attacks. In this documentary, Al-Awadi sets out to weave a story of immigration, family history, and the meaning of the American dream through the narratives of five New Yorkers affected by the September 11 tragedy.
http://www.dreamswithoutsleep.com/bio.htm

So, I was in the states during the summer of 2001 working between LA, DC and NY developing a feature film about the Gulf war. On September 10, 2001 I was in DC meeting with the head of media at the pentagon because they wanted to help me on this film. I needed to go to NYC that night for some other meetings, so I went to Dulles airport and, due to weather, was delayed at the airport from 4:00pm till 9:30pm when I got the last flight going to NY.
I arrived so late in NY that I went right to my hotel. I arose at 8:00am and left the hotel and went down to Canal St. I obviously realized that something big happened. I had my video camera with me and began filming, with no reason as to why, just that I needed to do it.
http://www.dreamswithoutsleep.com/story.htm

The night before the gala, Esther Coopersmith gave a dinner for 120 at her Kalorama home to honor the celebrities. Two guests, Nora Boustany, international political columnist of the Washington Post, and Rima Al-Sabah, wife of the ambassador of Kuwait, reminisced over their days as political correspondents during the war in Lebanon when they had offices across the hall from each other, Nora, for the Post, and Rima, for UPI. Both said they ducked under their desks whenever the bombs were too close for comfort.
Lebanese-born Rima received her degree in journalism from the University of Beirut.
“When I was just a freshman, my husband was a senior, and we became the “sweethearts of the campus,” said Rima.........
http://www.washingtonlife.com/backissues/archives/02nov/around_town.htm

At the Human Rights Caucus, however, Hill & Knowlton and Congressman Lantos had failed to reveal that Nayirah was a member of the Kuwaiti Royal Family. Her father, in fact, was Saud Nasir al-Sabah, Kuwait's Ambassador to the US, who sat listening in the hearing room during her testimony. The Caucus also failed to reveal that H&K vice-president Lauri Fitz-Pegado had coached Nayirah in what even the Kuwaitis' own investigators later confirmed was false testimony.
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Citizens_for_a_Free_Kuwait

........A few nights later, the Al-Sabahs sponsored a film evening, but a very sobering one. “Dreams Without Sleep,” from Kuwaiti filmmaker Walid Al-Awadi, came about while he was traveling last year between Los Angeles, D.C. and New York to work on a feature film and found himself on September 11th near the World Trade Center with a camera.
True to his profession, he kept rolling as events unfolded all about him. (The newspapers later recorded suspiciously that “an unidentified Muslim photographer” was taking pictures during the calamity).
http://www.washingtonlife.com/backissues/archives/02nov/around_town.htm

But there are things we know. As individuals, these men--for they are men, between roughly 17 and 45, which is to say they track in terms of sex and age group American criminals in American jails--are not only "hate filled" and "evil," though they are these things. They are also, obviously, emotionally and intellectually primitive. Their minds, if quick and highly focused, are also limited, stunted. And their young-man's arrogance is both a strength and their potential undoing. (Young male criminals of whatever sort tend to showy arrogance, and it is often their undoing.)
http://opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=95001349

BROWN: Finally tonight: the closing of a circle. As American life changed on 9/11, Kuwaiti life changed 11 years before, August of 1990, when the Iraqis invaded.
Among the people we met in our reporting here this week was a young man who watched both these terrible tragedies, watched them and filmed them. He seemed the right way to end our week here.
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0302/14/asb.00.html

Kuwait Filmmaker Turns Attention to Iraq
February 4, 2003 | Patrick MacDowell
KUWAIT CITY, Kuwait - After making a deeply pro-American documentary about Sept. 11, an Arab Muslim filmmaker is turning his camera to a feature set against the background of a possible war with Iraq.
...... At the sand-blown U.S. military camps in the Kuwaiti desert, little distinguishes Al-Awadi in grubby jeans and boots from the TV news crews that are shooting footage of troops killing time, awaiting any orders to invade northward into Iraq.
But back in Kuwait City, Al-Awadi swaps his Cannes cap for a traditional Arab headscarf and zips in a sports car to meetings to nail down sponsors for his new project, a feature film with documentary elements about refugees from an Arab dictatorship.
The looming war is a backdrop and would provide the action. But even if conflict is avoided, Al-Awadi says the story-line would be similar.
The working title is "Birds of Paradise" — paradise being the elusive home country under dictatorial rule.
"I don't want to talk about politics in this film," Al-Awadi said. "I want to talk about humans. It's about living in a refugee camp for 15 years and how home is so close, but you can't go back there."
A crew has been assembled in London, and he hopes to start filming by the end of February.
Like many Kuwaitis who survived the Iraqi occupation, Al-Awadi detests Saddam Hussein and feels that the Arab world — especially ordinary Iraqis — can only benefit from his ouster.
Iraqis will react like prisoners being set free, he believes.
"If there's going to be a war, let's get it over with," Al-Awadi said. "It's going to be very interesting. We're going to see a historic change in the region."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/835885/posts

The wealthy young men of Kuwait's ruling class were known as spoiled party boys in university cities and national capitals from Cairo to Washington.
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Citizens_for_a_Free_Kuwait

Would the Bush Administration mislead us about Iraq? I'd like to believe the President. That's why I'm asking supporters of a new war against Iraq to help out. Could you clear up a few nagging doubts from the last Gulf War that have led critics like Rep. Jim McDermott to question the credibility of our leaders?
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1010-08.htm

Surely there is some good explanation as to why and how the head of media at the Pentagon met with Kuwaiti film-maker Walid Al-Awadi on September 10, 2001 before sending him off to New York City that same night.
Surely there is some good explanation as to why generals with offices within the Pentagon cancelled any and all personal flight plans on September 10, 2001.
Surely there is some good explanation as to why the Pentagon has NEVER ONCE expressed any remorse or annoyance at the the al Sabah family or toward the firm of Hill & Knowlton where chief Pentagon Spokeswoman Victoria Clarke previously held the position of general manager.
And surely there that very good explanation
does NOT involve
a vast right wing conspiracy.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. O.K., but what the hell does that have to do with a ground stop to Newark?
I'm not saying that conspiracies don't exist in the world, I'm stating that there is absolutely nothing unusual about ground stops and that being the case, they shouldn't be presented as an oddity (and certainly not used as proof of a conspiracy)
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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Just to be clear about it, Mercutio...
Is it your position that there really isn't anything (nada, nunca) unusual about ground stops? That's a pretty insightful position to take, but it's certainly not my place to quibble with it. I'm just asking you to confirm if that's the major point you are trying to make. I'm trying to ascertain if you have any substantive objections to the many facts and oddities which seem to be leading inexorably to the conclusion that NO Cave People were involved in the "attacks" of 9-11 ... other than playing the role of unwitting Patsies.

Would you kindly restate your position on these matters? I know that you have said that you aren't 100% certain of the Administration's BS, but I'm unclear about the part of the 100% that you DON'T believe.

Thank you.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Sure, I'll attempt to clarify.
It is most definitely my position that there's nothing unusual about ground stops. We do them nearly every day. I'm not taking specific issue with the rest of DD's argument (because I don't have first-hand knowledge of the specifics outside of ATC) but a ground stop to Newark is a regular occurrence. The fire was unusual in itself (thankfully) but hardly unheard-of. I've seen ground stops for fires, equipment failures and bomb threats, though they're rare.

Frankly, my position on 9/11 is that I believe that the Administration had prior knowledge that such an event was possible and was, in fact, a threat that bore further examination. Rather than pursue the issue, they chose to ignore it. I don't believe in LIHOP and certainly not MIHOP but I do believe they were grossly incompetent.

One constant that I've observed is that major catastrophes are rarely the result of a plan. They're nearly always due to a succession of circumstances forming a chain that leads to the problem. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe that 9/11 was anything different. My posts don't address the theories as a whole, they address certain "proofs" that I know to be untrue (with some occasional opinions thrown in on non-ATC issues).
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demodewd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. re:conspiracies
What "conspiracies" that perhaps do exist that you perhaps find credible?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well, I believe that the Administration has a master plan (PNAC) and
that whether the events of 9/11 unfloded as they did or not, they'd have found a reason to invade Iraq.

I believe that their vision of what the future of the world should be differs from what the majority of America believes and, for that reason, they spin issues to conceal their true motives.

I believe that Bush really does believe most of what he says and that his cabinet is really running at least most of the show. I don't think he's stupid, I think he allows himself to be misinformed because they're telling him what he wants to hear.

As far as 9/11, the only "conspiracy" I believe is that, regardless of what the government claims, we were NOT prepared, and still aren't. I believe that this state of unpreparedness was what allowed 9/11 to happen.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Serious question
So, I was in the states during the summer of 2001 working between LA, DC and NY developing a feature film about the Gulf war. On September 10, 2001 I was in DC meeting with the head of media at the pentagon because they wanted to help me on this film. I needed to go to NYC that night for some other meetings,....

Is translated by you to this;

Surely there is some good explanation as to why and how the head of media at the Pentagon met with Kuwaiti film-maker Walid Al-Awadi on September 10, 2001 before sending him off to New York City that same night.

Maybe it's just me, but a Kuwaiti filmmaker meeting with the Pentagon media head about a film project on the gulf war just doesn't cut the muster as being unusual and doesn't require any good explanations. Also according to the statement Al-Awadi already had travel plans rather than being sent off by the Pentagon as you imply.

So the question is this; what process / filter do you use to take a rather mundane set of circumstances and turn it into a conspiracy?

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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I am sorry,
I had not realized that the head of media for the Pentagon routinely meets with Saddamophobic film-makers on the eve of Armageddon.
I was initially shocked and awed by that revelation
until you, LARED, helped put it into the proper mundane perspective.

Now, go tell that to Peggy Noonan
and the Jayna Davis groupies
who are STILL trying desperately to pin September 11 on Iraq.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-19-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Hyperbole just ain't going to cut it.
No where does your link imply the head of pentagon media routinely meets with anyone.

A Saddamophobic film-makers? If he was, can you blame him? Or are you one of those that long for the good old days when Saddam was butchering his own people and others at will.

The eve of Armageddon??? Did I miss it? Damm, no one ever tells me anythng.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Speaking of Saddamophobes,,


Purple really brings out the blank stare in your eyes Larette.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. WHY
should anyone in Kuwait
ESPECIALLY someone closely linked to the Al Sabah family
HATE Saddam Hussein?

Does it have something to do with dead babies?
Or drilling slantwise into Iraqi oilfields?

Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was not part of a nefarious plot to seize Mideast oil, as President George Bush Sr. claimed, but a typical Arab tribal raid provoked by an intolerable insult to honor. Arguing over repayment of money Kuwait had loaned Iraq to fight Iran, Kuwait's boorish Crown Prince reportedly told Saddam to `kiss my ass.,' Worse, the prince then offered to cancel the debt if Saddam sent Iraqi war widows to Kuwait's harems.
http://www.twf.org/News/Y2001/0123-Saddam.html

I understand that a lot of US soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq lately.
What do you think we should do with their widows?

Oh,
so you DO see
why Saddam might just have had to go take the living soldiers of Iraq
into Kuwait
to beat the insolent crap out of the ass of the boorish Crown Prince & Co.....

An enraged Saddam ordered his army to invade Kuwait and loot it. Just previously, the US Ambassador to Iraq had advised Saddam the US would `take no position' in squabble with Kuwait. Saddam saw this as a green light from Washington to punish Kuwait. After all, Saddam had been a close American ally in the long war against Iran.
<snip>
Some Mideast specialists believe the US actually lured Saddam into war. Whatever the case, Saddam could not pull out of Kuwait under US pressure without losing his grip on power. Hitler faced the same dilemma at Stalingrad. So he hunkered down, wrongly believing Russia would prevent the US-led coalition from attacking Iraq.
Bush Sr.'s US $85 billion crusade against Saddam Hussein bombed Iraq, then the Arab World's most modern nation, with a living standard equal to Greece, back to the 17th century. Subsequent US-British air attacks, which continue to this day, made the rubble bounce.
Kuwait was liberated and made safe for its disco-dancing oil sheiks. But the Saudis and Gulf emirates were forced to accept permanent US military bases and garrisons, and to nearly bankrupt themselves buying US and British arms they couldn't use.
The Americans and British didn't overthrow Saddam in 1991 because they needed him to keep running Iraq, an artificial, unstable, eternally rebellious nation created to serve Britain's colonial interests. If Saddam fell, Iraq, with the Mideast's second largest oil reserves, would splinter into Sunni, Shia and Kurdish regions, then be carved up by neighboring Iran, and Turkey.
http://www.twf.org/News/Y2001/0123-Saddam.html

When the war ended, however, Saddam, became too big for his jackboots. He had pretensions that Iraq, which has the Mideast's second largest oil reserves, should be a regional power, and armed, like Israel, with weapons of mass destruction.
Alarmed, the US set about bringing down Saddam. Kuwait was used to goad Iraq by running down oil prices, filching Iraqi oil by slant drilling, and publically insulting Saddam. Washington then gave Iraq what Baghdad believed was a green light to invade irksome Kuwait. When Saddam struck, former Texas oilman George Bush sprang the trap.
But Bush did not `take out' Saddam at war's end for two good reasons. First, contrary to Desert Storm disinformation and propaganda, the main force units of the Iraqi Army remained intact. Bush had no intention to fight his way into Baghdad, or end up governing and policing ungovernable Iraq.
http://www.geocities.com/iraqinfo/index.html?page=/iraqinfo/sanctions/sarticles1/whdowosdm.html

As for the butchery of Saddam:

Bush used Saddam's most infamous prison for these acts of torture. Iraqi commentators hated that the Americans left the prison standing at all. Now we find Bush has used it to commit the same crimes Saddam did.
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0505-11.htm

His son concludes: “We have discovered that Saddam is better than the Americans.”
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0523-03.htm

LONDON - Photos of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners drew international condemnation on Friday, prompting the stark conclusion that the U.S. campaign to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis is a lost cause.
"This is the straw that broke the camel's back for America," said Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the Arab newspaper Al Quds Al Arabi. "The liberators are worse than the dictators."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0430-01.htm

"They were going on a picnic," Shukur said. "Now I'd like to know what's going on. We went to many lawyers, but they tell us they can do nothing because the Americans have them. I came to see my son today. I wasn't allowed in. We didn't expect this of the Americans, but now we're expecting far worse."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0108-09.htm

In its most chilling lines, Frederick's journal describes the death in November of an Iraqi described as an "OGA prisoner" - an abbreviation for "Other Government Agency," military jargon for the CIA and other nonmilitary agencies.
"They stressed him out so bad that the man passed away," Frederick writes. The corpse was packed in ice and later prepared to suggest falsely that the prisoner had died under medical care: "The next day the medics came in and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake I.V. in his arm and took him away. This OGA was never processed and therefore never had a number."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0501-03.htm


As for butchering others at will:

About 4 a.m. on Feb. 13, 1991, two American missiles scythed through the reinforced concrete ceiling of the civilian bomb shelter and killed more than 400 people inside, nearly all of them women and children. U.S. officials said at the time they thought it was an Iraqi military command center, even when everybody in the neighborhood knew it was a public shelter.
The place has been left largely intact. On the floor in several spots, plexiglass covers the outlines of bodies incinerated by temperatures of hundreds of degrees. The brown patches are dried blood, she said.
A visit to Al-Amariya Bomb Shelter with its display of photographs of mutilated bodies and the visible tiny hand imprints of children on its ceilings is another stark reminder of the infamous moment.
The single most atrocious attack of that war, the bombing of the Al-Amariya bomb shelter in Baghdad, was first dismissed as “Iraqi propaganda” and then defended. The 288 civilians killed by American bombs, including 91 children, were said to be proof that the Iraqi regime “does not share our value for the sanctity of human life.”
http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/Amariya/usa-doc1.html

During the Gulf war, Britain and the United States pounded the city and its surroundings with 96,000 depleted-uranium shells. The wretched creatures in the photographs--for they were scarcely human--are the result, Dr Amer said.
He guided me past pictures of children born without eyes, without brains. Another had arrived in the world with only half a head, nothing above the eyes. Then there was a head with legs, babies without genitalia, a little girl born with her brain outside her skull and the whatever-it-was whose eyes were below the level of its nose.
Then the chair-grabbing moment--a photograph of what I can only describe (inadequately) as a pair of buttocks with a face and two amphibian arms. Mercifully, none of these babies survived for long.
http://www.counterpunch.org/kershaw1.html

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq:
We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?
Secretary of State Madeleine Albright:
I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.
--60 Minutes (5/12/96)
http://www.fair.org/extra/0111/iraq.html


THERE, LARED,
THERE are your dead babies.
now tell me again WHY Walid Al-Awadi has reason to hate Saddam Hussein.
http://www.ericfrancis.com/issues/0210/Iraq-Facts.html

On September 11, 1990, Bush also told a joint session of Congress that "following negotiations and promises by Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein not to use force, a powerful army invaded its trusting and much weaker neighbor, Kuwait. Within three days, 120,000 troops with 850 tanks had poured into Kuwait and moved south to threaten Saudi Arabia. It was then I decided to act to check that aggression." However, according to Jean Heller of the St. Petersburg Times (of Florida), the facts just weren't as Bush claimed. Satellite photographs taken by the Soviet Union on the precise day Bush addressed Congress failed to show any evidence of Iraqi troops in Kuwait or massing along the Kuwait-Saudi Arabian border. While the Pentagon was claiming as many as 250,000 Iraqi troops in Kuwait, it refused to provide evidence that would contradict the Soviet satellite photos. U.S. forces, encampments, aircraft, camouflaged equipment dumps, staging areas and tracks across the desert can easily be seen.
<snip>
On September 18, 1991, only a week after the Soviet photos were taken, the Pentagon was telling the American public that Iraqi forces in Kuwait had grown to 360,000 men and 2,800 tanks. But the photos of Kuwait do not show any tank tracks in southern Kuwait. They clearly do show tracks left by vehicles which serviced a large oil field, but no tank tracks. Heller concludes that as of January 6, 1991, the Pentagon had not provided the press or Congress with any proof at all for an early buildup of Iraqi troops in southern Kuwait that would suggest an imminent invasion of Saudi Arabia. The usual Pentagon evidence was little more than "trust me."
http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-consp.htm



Trust in me, just in me
Shut your eyes and trust in me
You can sleep safe and sound
Knowing I am around

Slip into silent slumber
Sail on a silver mist
Slowly and surely your senses
Will cease to resist

Trust in me, just in me
Shut your eyes and trust in me
-- The Jungle Book
-- Kaa, the python.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Let me see if I understand
Edited on Fri May-21-04 09:09 PM by LARED
Heep contempt on the Kuwaitis. Why?

Make excuses for Saddam. (are you a closet Saddamphile?) Why defend that scum Saddam?

Equate the problem of abuses by some American soldiers with the decades long tortures inflicted on the Iraqi people by the Batthist scum. Please get a grip.

Pull out of your hat that lame and preposterous notion that the starvation and lack of care for Iraqi children is any ones fault other than that butcher Saddam.

DD, I'm not saying America is blameless, but based on the above I suggest you adjust you perspective.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Butchers and bullies
Was Saddam the one plastering Depleted Uranium all over the landscape?
How many A-bombs has Saddam dropped on civilian cities?
Please tell me.
Judith Miller has not yet revealed this information.

And now let us discuss Kuwait.

The State of Kuwait has been ruled by the Sabah family since 1751. The 1962 constitution contains detailed provisions on the powers and relationships of the branches of government and on the rights of citizens. Upon the death of an amir, the crown prince assumes his position. A new crown prince is then selected by members of the Sabah family from among the direct descendants of Mubarak the Great. Under the constitution, the designation is subject to the approval of the National Assembly.
http://www.nationbynation.com/Kuwait/Gov.html

Oil was discovered there in the 1930s, and Kuwait proved to have 20% of the world's known oil resources. Since 1946 it has been the world's second-largest oil exporter. The sheik, who receives half the profits, devotes most of them to the education, welfare, and modernization of his kingdom.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107694.html

Tell us LARED,
who gets the other half of the profits?

The Sabah family has traditionally assigned most of the key Cabinet positions — the Foreign, Defense, Interior, and Finance ministries almost always, and often (as now) Oil and Information as well — to members of the extended family.
http://www.theestimate.com/public/060499.html

Last Updated: Thursday, 11 September, 2003, 11:08 GMT 12:08 UK
Recently, there have been attempts to change the male-dominated political structure, with a legal challenge against the government to allow women the vote and to stand in office. In 1999 the country's ruler, Sheikh Jabir al-Ahmad al-Sabah, issued a decree giving women full political rights, but the move was defeated in the National Assembly by 32 votes to 30.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/country_profiles/791053.stm

LARED,
what year is it?
Do you have anything to say
about the manner in which the al Sabah family
is silencing the women of the ENTIRE NATION OF KUWAIT?
With the sole exception of that 15 year old al Sabah bitch - Nayirah.

LARED, state publicaly and for the record,
is that al Sabah girl NOT a bitch,
worthy of the deepest contempt?

After all, when all is said and done,
she is by birth and by inclination
a thief and a murderer
besides being a lying bitch.

LARED says:
Heep contempt on the Kuwaitis. Why?

Iraq accuses Kuwait of stealing oil from Iraq’s Rumaylah oil field on the Iraq-Kuwait border; Saddam Hussein says he has proof that the Kuwaitis are using a British Petroleum method of ‘slant’ or ‘directional’ drilling (the well opening is on one side of a border, but the well itself is drilled at an often steep and lengthy angle to reach underground oilfields on the other side of a border). Hussein warns of military action and builds up troops along the Kuwaiti border. Newsweek later reveals that Kuwait was indeed siphoning oil from Iraqi oilfields.
http://www.winterboy.com/dejavu15.html

Thieves.
Liars.
Merchants of Death.
Children of Cain.
May Allah personally
reward the deeds of the al Sabah family
and also the deeds of their friends, supporters and compatriots.

...... The Berlin wall had come down. The Soviet Union had collapsed. And the American people were clamoring for a peace dividend. They had to find another bad guy — fast. In May 1990, a National Security Council white paper stated that Iraq and Saddam Hussein were (and I quote) "the optimum contenders to replace the Warsaw pact as the rationale for major military expenditures."
Two months later, on July 20, 1990, General Schwarzkopf conducted training exercises simulating exactly the contingency of an Iraqi attack on Kuwait. Five days later, April Glaspie gave Saddam the green light to invade Kuwait. A week later, he did. Almost immediately, the U.S. deployed as many troops and twice as much materiel as was moved for the Normandy invasion. Do you think this was done without advance planning?
http://www.rmbowman.com/Bowman2000/iraq.htm

The whole dispute started because Kuwait was slant-drilling. Using equipment bought from National Security Council chief Brent Scowcroft's old company, Kuwait was pumping out some $14-billion worth of oil from underneath Iraqi territory. Even the territory they were drilling from had originally been Iraq's. Slant-drilling is enough to get you shot in Texas, and it's certainly enough to start a war in the Mideast.
Even so, this dispute could have been negotiated. But it's hard to avoid a war when what you're actually doing is trying to provoke a war.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA%20Hits/Iraq_CIAHits.html

Our experienced directional drillers are on site to help monitor every phase of drilling your well -- ready with informed responses and more accurate solutions. We have the personnel and the tools to help complete any directional drilling project.
http://www.halliburton.com/oil_gas/sd0907.jsp
http://www.prod.exxonmobil.com/scitech/leaders/capabilities/mn_upstream_directional.html

In January, the government of Bahrain awards exclusive offshore drilling rights to George W's Harken Energy, beating out Amoco, an experienced and major international conglomerate. Sheikh Kalifah, the prime minister of Bahrain, is a BCCI shareholder and plays the key role in selecting Harken for the oil contract.
This is a surprise to many, as Harken is in very shaky financial condition, has not drilled outside of Texas, Louisiana and Oklahoma and has never drilled undersea at all. The Bass brothers are brought in by Harken, so there’s sufficient equity to proceed with the effort. Harken’s stock price increases from $4.50 to $5.50 per share.
After the Harken-Bahrain deal is signed, Board member Talat Othman is added to a group of Arabs who attend actual working policy meetings with President George Bush Sr and National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft during a critical period- once just two days after Iraq invades Kuwait. This means that Harken Oil is now in the position of benefiting from, even helping to mold, US foreign policy at the highest levels.
Othman is also the representative of Sheikh Abdullah Bakhsh, who has purchased 10% of Harken stock and has his own ties to BCCI. As well, his brother is head of the largest bank in Saudi Arabia.
<snip>
General Schwarzkopf informs the Senate Armed Services Committee of the new military strategy in the Gulf, developed the previous year with the help of General Colin Powell, Defense Secretary Richard Cheney, et al, and designed to protect and increase US access to and control over Persian Gulf oil “in the event of regional conflicts.
<snip>
May, Saddam Hussein asserts that deliberate oil overproduction by Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates is 'economic warfare' against Iraq, undercutting its ability to compete in the world market. He appeals to the US for backing.

George W Jr sells 60% of his Harken Oil stock to pay off the loans he took out to finance his portion of the Texas Rangers deal. The next month, Harken’s stock drops 25%; when Iraq invades Kuwait several weeks later, the stock drops even further.

In July, General Schwarzkopf and his staff run elaborate, computerized war games pitting about 100,000 US troops against hypothetical Iraqi armored divisions.
<snip>
Iraq accuses Kuwait of stealing oil from Iraq’s Rumaylah oil field on the Iraq-Kuwait border; Saddam Hussein says he has proof that the Kuwaitis are using a British Petroleum method of ‘slant’ or ‘directional’ drilling (the well opening is on one side of a border, but the well itself is drilled at an often steep and lengthy angle to reach underground oilfields on the other side of a border). Hussein warns of military action and builds up troops along the Kuwaiti border. Newsweek later reveals that Kuwait was indeed siphoning oil from Iraqi oilfields.

The US demonstrates little opposition to Iraq's increasing threats against Kuwait. US companies continue to seek major contracts with Iraq, and Congress approves agricultural loan subsidies to Iraq worth hundreds of millions of dollars. However, loans for food deliveries of rice, corn, wheat and other essentials- bought almost exclusively from the US- are cut off. This causes food shortages in Iraq, as planned.
Meanwhile, weapons are still sold to Iraq by US manufacturers. When Saddam Hussein asks US Ambassador April Glaspie to explain anti-Iraq State Department testimony in Congress, she assures him: “I have a direct instruction from the president to continue seeking better relations with Iraq” and that the US considers his dispute with Kuwait a “regional concern,” and will not intervene. Thus, it appears, the US intends to lead Iraq into a provocation justifying war. Later, when publicly castigated by the press for rubber-stamping the Kuwaiti invasion (which occurred eight days later), she declares, “Nobody then thought Saddam would actually invade Kuwait.”

On August 2, Iraq occupies Kuwait without significant resistance, thus jeopardizing Harken's offshore drilling deal with Bahrain and pushing the stock value even lower.

On August 3, without any real evidence of a threat to Saudi Arabia, President Bush vows to defend Saudi Arabia. King Fahd believes Iraq has no intention of invading his country, and there’s no evidence it does. Bush sends Defense Secretary Cheney, General Powell, and General Schwarzkopf almost immediately to Saudi Arabia.
On August 6, General Schwarzkopf tells King Fahd that US intelligence predicts Saddam Hussein will attack Saudi Arabia in as little as 48 hours. Efforts toward an Arab solution of the crisis are thus hampered, if not destroyed.
Iraq never does attack Saudi Arabia, and waits over five months while the US slowly builds a force in the region.

By August 22, Harken Energy can no longer conceal that it’s “hemorrhaging money.” Its second quarter report is a disaster, with stocks falling to $2.37 a share. The Securities and Exchange Commission discovers the Aloha sale scam (the sale of the Hawaiian gas station chain to Harken insiders) and requires Harken to restate its earnings.

James Bath and Khalid bin Mahfouz, along with former Secretary of Treasury and Texas governor John Connally, co-invest in Houston’s Main Bank.
Bath then becomes president of Skyway Aircraft Leasing Ltd, a Texas air charter company registered in the Cayman Islands. According to published reports in the early 1990s, the real owner of Skyway is bin Mahfouz. When Osama bin Laden’s brother Salem dies in a plane crash in Texas in 1988, his interest in the Houston Gulf Airport is transferred to bin Mahfouz.

George W. Bush blames his unreported Harken stock sale on the SEC itself, saying that the SEC simply misplaced his properly-filed report. Next, he'll blame his lawyers for losing the paperwork.
http://www.winterboy.com/dejavu15.html

LARED,
America is NOT blameless,
and based on the above
I suggest YOU adjust YOUR perspective.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-04 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. It's amazing DD
The key to excellent research is to always thoroughly evaluate the issues from all sides in an objective manner.

Yet somehow in your efforts Saddam's Iraq and the Batthist thugs never make it under the DD electron microscope for criticism.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. I was going to answer that
but I figured that if
YOU had ANY actual proof of ANYTHING,
then you would have dragged it out long ago.

“A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.” Winston Churchill

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Don't let me stop you from
posting some criticism of Saddam and his Batthist scum. You don't beleive anything I say anyway.

Can you manage it DD? Just a line or two condemming a brutal dictator is all I need to convince me you're not a Saddamphile.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. The day
after you indicate that
the wanton MURDER of Iraqi men women and children
is NOT a good thing.

Incidentally, are you going to permit Saddamalike to go on trial?
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3107625

Here is a picture of a REAL Saddamophile.
Betcha a weeks pay LARED will never call that man a traitor (to the US.)




Some improvement, huh?
Rumsfeld has really lived up to the job.
Which scum is responsible for these crimes against humanity?







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Abe Linkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Please, lared -- no sarcastic put-downs. This is too heartbreaking.
Not in my name.
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Thanks DD
She said that someone mentioned Newark, but couldn't recall what was said. So it was a fire huh. :yourock:
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-18-04 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. Stormy weather, somewhere
My flight from Houston Intercontinental Airport to LaGuardia airport in New York was scheduled to leave at 5:30 pm on Monday, September 10, 2001. It was delayed due to bad weather in New York. I was lucky.

The flight was finally cancelled as well as all other flights to LaGuardia due to the storms in New York.
I was lucky
http://users2.ev1.net/~jeduke/ralph.htm

SIDEBAR
On SEPTEMBER 10, 2001 (That's right-- the day before 9-11), I was preparing to leave my (then) home in San Pedro (South Bay of LA), California for LAX (Los Angeles International Airport) to pick up a business partner who was taking the last Southwest Airlines Flight of the evening from San Jose to LA. We were scheduled for a hearing in Los Angeles Superior Court the morning of 9-11 on a matter concerning a business lawsuit. My telephone rang as I was headed for the door.

Bill (my friend and partner) said he was calling from inside the Southwest airplane on the tarmac at San Jose Airport. He said that the airplane was being approached and surrounded by a large number of security and police vehicles: He estimated more than 20. Under the circumstances he thought I should wait before leaving for LAX, because it looked like he would be delayed. He sounded very worried.

Three anxious hours passed before I heard from him again. Anxious, because we had an important court hearing scheduled for Tuesday morning and we had much to prepare. When he finally called from his car while returning home, this was his story:

The airplane was towed to a remote area of San Jose Airport surrounded by the security vehicles, and the passengers were loaded on buses under the watchful eye of armed security personnel. He said, "We were taken to a large hangar, where each passenger was asked for identification and directed to seats arranged in a circle around the perimeter of the large room. . . . We could see the baggage being unloaded and searched as security officers entered the empty aircraft." He explained, "After 40 minutes, several of the male passengers were escorted from the room by armed guards."

After a two-hour wait, the remainder of the passengers were bused back to the main terminal, where their baggage was returned after another identity check. Those passengers were told to return to the airport on 9-11 for a morning flight. Bill then said that he would be returning to the San Jose airport after a few hours sleep and that he would call the next morning when he knew his new arrival time.
http://www.ospolitics.org/usa/archives/2003/09/11/911_from_p.php

MEANWHILE, IN MAINE......
Fly-in draws thousands to Greenville
By Sharon Kiley Mack, Of the NEWS Staff - GREENVILLE — An economic boom soared into Greenville this weekend as thousands of spectators and participants in the 28th annual International Seaplane Fly-In landed in town.
Stores and shops were packed with customers and every restaurant in town had a waiting line Saturday afternoon.
“This is the best I’ve ever seen,” said organizer Frank Woodworth of Detroit.
In addition to the games, antics and showmanship displayed by the pilots, visitors also enjoyed locally sponsored cookouts, a craft fair, and the scenic vistas Moosehead Lake provides.
Woodworth said the event drew 550 planes to the airport and 160 to the lake.
Woodworth said the event had drawn pilots from all over New England and beyond. “This just gets better every year,” he said.
"This content originally appeared as a copyrighted article in the Monday, September 10, 2001 edition of the Bangor Daily NEWS and is used here with permission."
http://www.greenvilleme.com/news/091001mm.html

Must have been some wicked storm up there in New York.

....Four friends and pilots flew to Maine from Orange County, N.Y., especially for the event.
....The flight from New York took the quartet just 2½ hours. “A day trip,” Orsini called it.......
http://www.greenvilleme.com/news/091001mm.html

The flight was no less eventful. If you recall, the northeast got some fairly heavy storms Friday night. So of course every single flight out of Boston was delayed. My 5:30 flight to Newark was pushed back to 8pm before I even got to the terminal. I asked one of the booking agents about the delays and my connecting flight, and he rebooked me on the next flight out for Newark without my even having to ask. This was a 5pm departure that had gotten pushed back to 7, but had just been moved back to 5:15. Problem was, they already sent the crew over to the hotel to relax for a couple hours. Once the crew finally got there, about 5:30, the captain came out to the boarding area and told everyone that despite the weather, we'd be able to take off if we left the gate by 5:45, leaving 15 minutes to board a full MD80. We did it, and then the pilot pulled some sort of miracle. I don't know who he knows in the tower at Logan, but we skipped over 35 planes waiting to take off, and were airborne immediately. He got us to Newark about 10 minutes after I was originally supposed to arrive. If it was any other airline than Continental, I'd never have left Boston.
Problem was, everything in Newark was also delayed by several hours. And the Continental Express area in EWR is a madhouse. One booking desk, and one "gate" for all Express flights with no accurate signs. This combined with the delays made for far too many unhappy people in far too small a space. My 8pm flight to Dulles didn't leave Milwaukee until 8:30, and then 10 minutes later we were told that it was cancelled. So much for flying out of New Jersey that night, because there were no more flights to Dulles, and the remaining flights to Washington National were booked solid. I considered calling friends in NJ for a moment, but decided it wouldn't be fair to ask them to come pick me up, put me up for the night, and drive me back in the morning. Instead I rented a car from Avis and drove the four hours to Virginia
http://bonkoif.com/archives/archive-092001.phtml

On Monday, September 10 at about 1 pm, my husband and I flew into Newark, returning from a meeting of the CSWE Commission on Conferences and Faculty Development. We flew past the World Trade Center Towers on our way into Newark, and the plane's landing gear lowered. Suddenly, the landing gear and the plane lifted again, and we were told that we had been diverted to LaGuardia Airport, as there was a fire in Newark Airport. We flew past the Twin Towers again on our way to land at LaGuardia.
There was some confusion when we landed at LaGuardia, and over a period of three hours, we were led off the plane, back on the plane, and then off the plane again. This seemed strange at the time. In light of the events of September 11, we now wonder if the fire in Newark was in any way connected to the terrorist attack which would occur the next day.
http://bpdupdateonline.bizland.com/fall2001/id26.html

MEANWHILE, IN ISRAEL....
23 Elul 5761 22:17Monday September 10, 2001
Work sanctions at Ben-Gurion Airport, that disrupted scheduled take-offs and landings throughout the day, have temporarily come to an end.
Airport workers' representatives are expected to meet shortly to decide on a course of action.
This morning, work sanctions delayed outgoing flights. This afternoon, airport workers did not unload baggage from some flights.
http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/10/LatestNews/LatestNews.34505.html

So, I was in the states during the summer of 2001 working between LA, DC and NY developing a feature film about the Gulf war. On September 10, 2001 I was in DC meeting with the head of media at the pentagon because they wanted to help me on this film. I needed to go to NYC that night for some other meetings, so I went to Dulles airport and, due to weather, was delayed at the airport from 4:00pm till 9:30pm when I got the last flight going to NY.
I arrived so late in NY that I went right to my hotel. I arose at 8:00am and left the hotel and went down to Canal St. I obviously realized that something big happened. I had my video camera with me and began filming, with no reason as to why, just that I needed to do it.
http://www.dreamswithoutsleep.com/story.htm

Sunday, September 9, 2001
U.S. officials on Friday warned American citizens in Japan and South Korea to be on alert following a report of an unconfirmed terrorist threat against the U.S. military in the Pacific.
“It’s a caution to American citizens simply because there was a threat directed at the American military and the places that they gather,” U.S. Embassy spokesman Patrick Linehan said Saturday.
Linehan described the threat as “credible” but did not provide details such as when or where a possible attack might occur. He also did not say when the warning would be lifted.
Terrorist warnings are rare in Japan, Linehan said.
http://ww2.pstripes.osd.mil/01/sep01/ed090901a.html

But, as NB would remind me, I digress. At the end of the meeting, I took a car back to JFK and was on time for my 6PM flight. In the car, I felt that feeling of comfort being in my favorite city, and in general in any big city where all the parts work, where you just expect to have taxis, airports, restaurants at all hours, big hotels with everything, contacts, connections, people.
When I got to the gate at JFK, I and the other passengers learned that incoming plane was grounded in Minneapolis due to thunderstorms. Many hours passed. I found a nice corner with a power outlet, plugged in my laptop, and listened to some music. A young man sat next to me, not to be friendly but to use the same power jack for his cell phone. He made a call and then we started talking. He was indeed very friendly and got a bunch of us some coffee. Turns out he was an Israeli living in NYC who had a girlfriend in Duluth, MN and was on his way this particular night to see her. I asked him how he liked New York, and of course now I will never forget what he said. He told me that he loved New York, because in the middle east, people solved problems with bombs but that in New York, people solved problems with words. I wish I had written down exactly what he said, but that is the general idea.
http://gurak.blogspot.com/

September 10, American Airlines Flight 223, Boston to Los Angeles--Returning home from the opening weekend of my play, Letters From 'Nam. Delayed an hour on the tarmac. My partner, Christopher, and I sit and read impatiently. Two friends happen to be on board, and we laugh and complain: "Are we ever gonna get home?" Finally the plane takes off, and soon we're in L.A., safe and sound.
The next morning the phone rings twice at 6 A.M. Who has the nerve to call me this early? Assuming it must be someone from Boston, forgetting the time difference, I ignore it.
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1589/2001_Nov_20/80116746/p1/article.jhtml

And there are many many more such reports online.
However, we would be remis if we were to omit to inform you that delays are considered a normal part of flying in the US.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. I'm not sure if this is what you're questioning, but
sometimes (like today) we DO ground stop for weather that neither the people at the departure airport nor those at the arrival airport can see. It's called enroute weather.

Today we ground stopped O'Hare for enroute weather. The weather at O'Hare allowed arrivals. The weather at many departure airports allowed departures. The routes we use to O'Hare, however, were all impacted by weather, so we issued a ground stop.

Just because you can't see the weather doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-04 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Example of above:
Yesterday we ground stopped for O'Hare because of weather impacting all of our published routes to O'Hare. Planes could depart their departure airports. Planes could land at O'Hare.

...they just couldn't safely fly between the two.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. "they just couldn't safely fly between the two"
Just because you can't see the weather doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.



All the more reason to
GO GREYHOUND.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
26. Most US airports were shutting down on 9/10/2001
At least according to the BTS database.

Fewer and fewer planes took off as the day were on.
By the early hours of September 11, hardly anything was taking off.
Almost all US civil aircaft were grounded.
The only ones who were airborne on the next day after 8:00 AM,
were the international airlines who were not in on it.
Many of them collapsed as a direct result.

Continental Alleges United/American Conspiracy
Feb 8, 2001
Gordon Bethune, chairman of Continental Airlines, yesterday accused United and American of a conspiracy to create a cartel that would split the US market between them.
At a hearing before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Bethune also called for the Transportation Department (DOT) to take away routes from his rivals if the deal is approved.
Bethune's strong opposition was unexpected since Continental is in exploratory talks with Delta Air Lines over a potential merger of its own.
But Bethune said he would rather maintain the status quo than be forced into a deal with Delta.
His comments were the latest in an increasing groundswell in the industry and on Capitol Hill against the mergers, whereby United would buy all of US Airways for USD$4.3bn and then sell 20 per cent of the acquired assets to American for USD$1.2bn.
Bethune said that the deal would allow the two largest airlines to eliminate competition illegally in the US and could lead to global dominance.
"Clearly, United and American's plan is to reach detente, build a cartel, and carve up and dominate the US air travel market," he said.
"Ultimately, the same way United and American have split Chicago O'Hare and London Heathrow, they will split the rest of the US and maybe even split global aviation."
http://news.airwise.com/airlines/archive/2001/american2001.html

That prophecy is being fulfilled.

With a huge hub at Newark airport, Continental carries 20m people a year to and from the New York area - more than any of its rivals. It is among the leading transatlantic carriers with flights to 11 European countries, including regular services to Gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow.
When flights were grounded for four days after terrorists struck the World Trade Centre, the airline lost $120m (£77m).
http://travel.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,7445,796303,00.html

Thursday, June 3, 2004 Posted: 4:13 PM EDT (2013 GMT)
Gordon Bethune, chief executive of Continental Airlines, described the industry's financial condition as "perilous, and the skies are only getting darker. All-time high oil prices and the ever-increasing burden of government taxes and fees are killing the industry."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/06/03/airlines.outlook.ap/
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LoneStar Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Which airports were shutting down on 9/10/2001?
///Most US airports were shutting down on 9/10/2001"
Posted by DulceDecorum
At least according to the BTS database.

Fewer and fewer planes took off as the day were on.

By the early hours of September 11, hardly anything was taking off.
Almost all US civil aircaft were grounded.///


Can you give me an example of an airport that would have normally had a lot of late night departures that were suddenly cancelled the night of the 10th?

I know that America West has a lot of late-night departures out of Las Vegas. Checking America West departures from LAS on September 10th, I see 25 departures scheduled between 10:00 p.m. and midnight. I show none of them were cancelled.

Checking Southwest Airlines departures out of Dallas Love Field on the morning of September 11, I show 21 departures that all left Love Field prior to 8:30 CDT (9:30 a.m. Eastern) I don't show any flights that were scheduled to depart before 8:30 that were cancelled.

From an August 2002 USA Today article about how the controlloers cleared the skies on September 11.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-08-12-hijacker-daytwo_x.htm

"Now they face an unprecedented challenge. They must land as fast as possible almost 4,500 planes in or headed toward U.S. airspace."

So if there were hardly any planes taking of by the early hours of September 11, where did these 4,500 planes that were airborne come from?
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. Question for LoneStar.
Where would one find the data
indicating that September 11 planes landed
at airports such as Memphis International, Memphis, TN?

From what I have been given to understand,
a lot of planes landed ther on Septemeber 11,
between 9:45 AM and 10:45AM
after the ground stop was issued.

As a result, one of the controllers' few options was to land jets at Memphis International Airport. Luckily, it has a lot of unused capacity. The airport is a bustling FedEx hub at night but relatively quiet during the day. Controllers rerouted 45 jets there, more than double the normal arrivals for that time of the morning. (Only Indianapolis International Airport received as many.)
But that still wasn't enough. They sent other jets to Little Rock until controllers there telephoned Memphis and said they couldn't handle any more. They directed a few stragglers to Fort Smith Regional Airport in western Arkansas.
As a result, one of the controllers' few options was to land jets at Memphis International Airport. Luckily, it has a lot of unused capacity. The airport is a bustling FedEx hub at night but relatively quiet during the day. Controllers rerouted 45 jets there, more than double the normal arrivals for that time of the morning. (Only Indianapolis International Airport received as many.)
But that still wasn't enough. They sent other jets to Little Rock until controllers there telephoned Memphis and said they couldn't handle any more. They directed a few stragglers to Fort Smith Regional Airport in western Arkansas.
As a result, one of the controllers' few options was to land jets at
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2002/2002-08-13-cs-air-traffic.htm

Yet and still,
I really do not see much evidence of this having ACTUALLY taken place.

Got any BTS diverted-plane-landed-here data?
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LoneStar Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Info on diverted flights
Unfortunately, the BTS doesn't give much useful information regarding diverted flights other than the fact they were diverted. Diversions are reported out of the departing city ONLY.

Example: These are the diverted American Airlines flights out of Boston that took off on September 11, 2001 but were diverted:

Airport:  Boston, MA - Logan International (BOS)
Carrier Code
Date (MM/DD/YYYY)
Flight Number
Tail Number
Destination Airport
Diversion

AA 09/11/2001 0153 N232AA ORD Yes
AA 09/11/2001 0189 N3BMAA SEA Yes
AA 09/11/2001 0269 N636AA SJC Yes
AA 09/11/2001 1663 N521AA DFW Yes
AA 09/11/2001 1857 N630AA DFW Yes

("Yes" means it was diverted.)

The total number of the records found for this query: 5

The only other information you can get regarding these flights is if you were to check scheduled departures for AA out of Boston. Doing that will provide additional information regarding what time the plane departed the gate and what time the aircraft took off from the origin city.

Unfortunately the BTS does not report the information regarding where the diverted flights were rerouted.

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LoneStar Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
27. Cincinatti was not closed on 9/10/2001
You can go to the Bureau of Transportation at www.bts.gov and check by city and airline all arrivals and departures for a speciic date.

Checking all Delta Airlines departures out of Cincinatti on September 10, 2001 I see where Delta had 176 scheduled departures that day and 8 were cancelled. The flights cancelled were a 9:00 a.m. flight to Los Angeles, a 9:05 a.m. flight to Louisville, a 2:50 p.m. flight to New York LaGuardia, a 3:05 p.m. flight to Philadelphia, a 4:15 p.m. flight to Austin, a 7:15 p.m. flight to New York LaGuardia, an 8:45 p.m. flight to San Jose, CA and the 10:45 p.m. flight to Philadelphia. There were other flights that did leave between the hours of 10:00 and 11:00 p.m. so the airport definitely wasn't closed.

I don't believe the flight being cancelled had anything to do with Philadelphia's curfew. It came into Cincinatti from Birmingham, AL and arrived at the gate at 10:03 p.m. eight minutes ahead of it's scheduled 10:11 p.m. arrival time.

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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Thanks
for your input. A voice of sanity is welcome.
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Not bad.
Now all we have to do is check
with all the local hotels
to make sure hundreds of stranded travellers never checked in,
and that story just may fly.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Here ya go, Dulce...
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-21-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Heeeheeeeheee...
Bolo, that was inspired...


:toast:
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DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Why thankee kindly.
And,
since you have proved to be so adept at obtaining accommodation
for stranded travelers,
perhaps you would be so kind as to
assist in the quest
for the elusive stranded travelers of September 11,
of whom we have heard
NOTHING.

We are told that 4,500 civilian planes were brought down
in a little over an hour.
WHAT happened to those passengers?

Hertz, Avis, Enterprise, Greyhound, and Amtrak
SHOULD HAVE reported RECORD earnings for the month of September.
Just about everyone on those planes was probably trying their hardest to get back home.
Pronto.
Business be damned.

Holiday Inn, Howard Johnson, Ramada, and Radisson,
should have had a lot of impromptu bookings
push up their bottom line
for the second week of September 2001.
Since these places pay taxes,
I am expecting this info to be on the public register,
and yet somehow,
I have the strong impression that
none of us is ever going to see it.
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Is there no history you're not willing to revise, Dulce?
There are thousands of stories about stranded passengers from 9/11.

What are you angling at? You've denied that the planes took off, that they hit their targets, that no one died in the crashes, that the victims didn't actually suffering fire damage, that the hijackers are all still alive...

Are you trying to say that 9/11 never happened at all? That the Bush Administration/Mossad did it all with CGI and a few smoke bombs?

What's your angle, Dulce?
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NecessaryOnslaught Donating Member (691 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-23-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. Thanks for the link
I was looking for a way to acess this information and was under the impression that it was a pay feature. It airport certainly dosen't appear to have been closed. What is strange is that Delta is the only airline to have cancelled any flights that day, and they had 8 cancellations. Maybe they had an office party and the pilots were poundin the Jack. :shrug:
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-24-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
43. Locking per user request
Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground
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