Footage said to show Gaza girl could have posed threat

[NVMojo]

they must have the same pr teams as the Bush administration...


March 6, 2005

The attorney representing Captain R., an Israel Defense Forces company commander accused of "confirming the kill" of a Palestinian schoolgirl adjacent to the south Gaza area of Rafah, told a military tribunal Sunday that footage of the scene substantiated the commander's claim that the girl was sent by militants.

One of R.'s lawyers, Yoav Meni, screened footage shot from the military outpost at the time of the shooting, pointing out a Palestinian man he said could be seen 50 meters away from the girl. The footage was shown during the cross-examination of a Military Police investigator.

The presence of another Palestinian in the area, a military zone closed to Palestinians, strengthens R.'s contention that Palestinian militants had sent the girl as bait, to distract the soldiers at the outpost, according to R.'s defense team.

more...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/548575.html

[pie]

1. Having done the act he is not man enough to tell the truth

[ClintonTyree]

3. Right out of the gwbush...............

playbook. Never admit mistakes. In george's case it's because god talks to him and tells him what to do. god can never be wrong, so in essence, bush is blaming god for all of his fuckups.
What this turd blossom's reason is ..........? Just a plain old coward I guess.

[simcha_6]

13. Well, what did you expect?

He's being charged for a crime and has decided to plead not guilty, as many people seem to do. He's not going to say, "I didn't do it," so he needs to find a reason. What defense did you expect this guy to mount?

[Canuckistanian]

2. Ah, well then, case closed.

It's perfectly legal to kill children if they're used for bait. The girl should have known better!

[DELUSIONAL]

4. of course -- and the moon is made of green cheese

I don't believe "their" military any more than I believe the US lying military.

They also probably fabricate video --

As long a Sharon and people like him are left in power -- this hatred of the "other" will continue.

The extreme religious right -- Christians, Muslim, Jew -- are all dangerous and deranged. Give 'em a gun (and/or a rope for hanging) and they are darn right lethal.

[Darranar]

5. So she deserved to be shot? n/t

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Djinn]

7. with the pissy charges he's up against

the son of a bitch could atleast plead guilty.

Empty your gun into a wounded 13 year old at point blank range and you get charged with "illegal use of a weapon" & "conduct unbecoming an officer" and other minor infractions.

I like the "there was a palestinian in the area therefore she was a threat" line though - that should pretty much mean they can shoot any Palestinian at anytime - it's a pretty densely populated place.

[bemildred]

8. Yeah, what the hell was a Palestinian doing there in a Palestinian area?

[centristo]

9. FYI

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/14/wmid114.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/01/14/ixnewstop.html

On Oct 5 last year Iman al-Hams, dressed in striped tunic, headscarf and jeans and carrying a satchel, set off for school in the miserable town of Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip, the scene of constant clashes between the Israeli army and Palestinian gunmen. Her headmistress reported that after firing broke out she seemed to panic and ran towards an army observation post half a mile away.

Onlookers yelled at her to turn back but she stumbled deeper and deeper into the military exclusion zone, a wasteland of sand and scrub.

...


Iman's brother, Aihab al-Hams, said Palestinian witnesses claimed a voice over a loudspeaker ordered her to drop her school bag.

Soldiers fired warning shots and aimed fire at her satchel in case it contained a bomb.

...

So basically this poor girl was in a wasteland of "sand and scrub" with a "satchel". There was a gunfight elsewhere in the area around this time. In fact, this didn't go down in a quiet Palestinian neighborhood and she wasn't playing hopskotch on the sidewalk when she was shot. That being said it is still a terrible tragedy.

I think this officer did act disgracefully and I won't make any apologies for him. However, let's at least have the facts correct when passing judgment.

[bemildred]

10. I would risk dead soldiers to save the girl, but that's just me.

You know, women and children first, ideas like that.
I certainly would not have been in a hurry to "eliminate the threat".
And I can't say the venue would make a difference in that.
I would be willing to buy an argument that the soldier(s) were and
are nuts, because they are placed in a psychotic situation, but
otherwise I see little in the issue of where it was or how it came
about that explains her killing.

[centristo]

11. there were arguments being raised

that this happened while the girl was minding her own business or something. She probably got scared, stumbled into a place she knew, or should have known not to be in, and froze. But who knows..

Now, that's an interesting remark about choosing "dead soldiers" over the girl. Picture your husband, brother, or father as a soldier and tell me that's still true. Picture the hundreds of dead Israeli civilians who may have been killed had this girl been a real suicide bomber and slipped past the security detail.

This incident is definitely a tragedy, but it is one of many in this region. What about all the 13-year old female "martyrs" used by Hamas and Al-Aqsa? I don't have the time right now to research, but I have definately seen pictures of young women in "martyr" posters in the OT. That's the real tragedy; the exploitation of children in the advancement of terrorism.

I also think its pretty clear that BOTH sides, soldiers and civilians, are tramautized severly by this conflict.

[bemildred]

12. Not by me.

I already said:

"but otherwise I see little in the issue of where it
was or how it came about that explains her killing."

The issue is not whether "dead soldiers" is good, it isn't.
The issue is which do you choose? Which would you choose
if it was your sister of daughter? I'm asserting that the
soldiers are, or ought to be, there to protect the weak and
defenseless, not merely themselves.

[centristo]

23. there are other people on this thread besides you

Djinn...on post 7

"the son of a bitch could at least plead guilty.

Empty your gun into a wounded 13 year old at point blank range and you get charged with "illegal use of a weapon" & "conduct unbecoming an officer" and other minor infractions.

I like the "there was a palestinian in the area therefore she was a threat" line though - that should pretty much mean they can shoot any Palestinian at anytime - it's a pretty densely populated place."


This tragedy did not happen in a densely populated place. It was in a secured militarized zone, according to the previous article I posted. Any Palestinian, of any age or gender, who entered that area should have been considered dangerous.

The issue in contention is why the officer emptied his gun into her. I'm not trying to defend him, because it does sound like he's guilty, but I do insist assumptions and blanket generalizations of the IDF or Israelis are left out of the conversation.

[bemildred]

24. You addressed me.

When people do that I expect them to be talking about something I said.
If you want to talk to somebody else, then talk to them, about what
they said. If you want to address the general subject of the thread,
then reply to the original post.

You won't get far with me complaining about what someone else said,
I have other things to do than respond to incoherent rambling.

[centristo]

25. oh c'mon

read your post that I originally replied to...

It said something like "yeah, what the hell is a Palestinian doing in a Palestinian area?" . As I showed, she was not in a Palestinian area, she was in an IDF-controleld area that Palestinians were not supposed to be in. Then there was Djinn's post which was also misleading. You can't respond to two posts at once so I thought I'd address both of them because they BOTH implied a story that the facts contradict: that this girl was minding her own business when some IDF thug emptied a clip into her back. It wasn't like that. Even if he is guilty, he should be judged on what actually happened, not on a dramatized version of the events.

But whatever, this is a silly side-argument to be having. I'm curious to hear how this trial turns out. Are Israeli courts as slow as American ones?

[bemildred]

26. And my meaning is perfectly clear too, if one cares to see it.

There is a reason I am not willing to go deeper into the
question of whether it is a "palestinian area" or an "IDF controlled
one", it leads into issues that have already been beated to death,
and that I do not wish to hash out again. The little girl was near
her home and on her way to school. It takes a certain moral blindness
to imply the she is in any way at fault for what happened to her.
Power and responsibility go together, she had no power, the soldiers
had all of it.

[centristo]

27. obviously

it begs the question of what is or should be "palestinian" or "IDF controlled" land. I agree, that is a whole can of worms we don't need to touch.

However, you are acting like the Palestinians have done nothing to warrant suspicion or caution from the Israelis. That's not "moral blindness", that's just blindness. I tried to broach the point earlier, that the tactic of Al Aqsa and their ilk to use 13-year old girls as human guided bombs has exasterbated the already tense situation.

http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/joe/tromb1.html
"...The Al-Aqsa martyrs remark, “suicide attacks are done for effect, and the more dramatic the effect, the stronger the message; thus a potential interest on the part of some groups in recruiting women”

...Besides the strong message that female suicide bombers send, they also do not invoke Israeli suspicion since many Muslims consider Muslim women to be noncombatants and therefore not capable of executing martyr missions (Zoroya, 2002, p. 2). Female suicide bombers have created mayhem at Israeli military checkpoints because women have rarely been searched in the past and new procedures have to be implemented to now encompass women (Gilmore, 2002, p. 5). In fact, it is speculated that now it will be twice as difficult to stop suicide bombers (Fletcher, 2002, p. 3). Consequently, Israelis now expect to see more female suicide bombers than male (Zoroya, 2002, p. 1).

...Despite this, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs have created a special unit for female suicide bombers naming it after Wafa Idris.

...For Shireen Oudeh, her 14 year old female neighbor, Ayat’s act was
“sensational, it’s awesome, it makes me think anyone would love to be in her place”

[bemildred]

28. I'm aware of these things.

I have no interest in defending the al Aqsa fellows, although I
can see why you prefer to attack them. The fact is the
girl was no threat to anybody, and the fact that there are other people
who are a threat does not justify or mitigate what was done to her,
in my eyes. Otherwise one is left with the notion that it is moral
to punish one person for anothers deeds, or even for deeds another
might do sometime, which is no morality at all but mere self-centered
expediency.

[centristo]

30. you speak with the benefit of hindsight

but regardless, the point you make is noted.

[bemildred]

31. Sir, it is ridiculous to say that you can blow a 13 year old girl away

because she might have been dangerous. It has nothing to do with
hindsight. What sort of soldier is it that is so cowardly that he will
kill a 13 year old girl as a form of prophylaxis? And that is the
best interpretation that one can put on the matter, cowardice, the
others are worse.

[centristo]

33. don't put words into my mouth...nt

[bemildred]

34. It's been nice talking with you. nt

[Scurrilous]

29. "...the tactic of Al Aqsa and their ilk to use 13-year old girls ..

... as human guided bombs has exasterbated the already tense situation."

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/11/02/isrlpa9591.htm

<snip>

"Human Rights Watch said that the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade has been implicated in at least four suicide bombings by children. These include bombings by 17-year-old Ayat al-Akhras in Jerusalem in March 2002; 17-year-old Issa Abedrabbu Ibrahim Badir in Rishon Lezion in May 2002; 16-year-old Sabih Abu al-Saoud in March 2003 and 17-year-old Islam Qteishat in Rosh Ha’ayin in August 2003.


Islamic Jihad has been linked to at least three suicide bombings by children, including attacks by 17-year-old Safwat Abdel Rahman in Tel-Aviv in January 2002, 17-year-old Hamza Aref Samudi near Mejiddo junction in June 2002; and 17-year-old Iyad al-Masri in January 2004. Hamas has also been implicated in attacks carried out by children. In August 2003, 17-year-old Khamis Gerwan carried out a suicide bombing near Ariel, an illegal West Bank settlement."



HRW seems to have overlooked instances of 13 year old girls being used as suicide bombers. Can you tell me when this happened?

[centristo]

32. splitting hairs a bit?

http://chud.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-45788.html
http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=7/d/091020021
http://www.operationsick.com/factsheet01.html
http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief2-8.htm
http://christianactionforisrael.org/isreport/oct02/abuse.html

You're right though, I couldn't find a case of a 13-year old female successful suicide bomber. I could only find a few articles quoting 13-year old girls begging Allah to let them die a martyr. My bad.

[Englander]

35. Oh dude,your bias is showing...

Of yer links;
One is a message board; "infoisrael" has links to D.Pipes,MEMRI,little green footballs,& the ZOA; the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs,(jcpa)is a serious publication,I grant,and they were doing well,until I found the "NGO Monitor" on their web-site,where the "anti-Israel" sentiment of Oxfam,HCR,Christian Aid & ai is "exposed":silly:

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/

But you have saved the best for last; "christianactionforisrael",is apparently a Canadian/Israeli fundie site,and there's a link to the "spirit of islam",and an "article" explaining that islam=terrorism.

http://christianactionforisrael.org/other2.html
http://christianactionforisrael.org/external/spiritx.html
http://www.thespiritofislam.com/books/islamandterrorism/

:hi:

[centristo]

36. i don't think there are many websites regarding

the I/P conflict that are 100% unbiased, non-partisan and have no agenda. But you know, it is possible, for those with moderate levels of intelligence, to read from ANY source and still discern what's the truth and what's bullshit. I read DailyKos and the DrudgeReport. I read the WSJ and the NYT. I watch FoxNews (in small doses) and listen to Air America. Refute what's in those links if you like, but don't just discredit them because of supposed biases or links to websites that have biases.

But anyway, I did a google search for "teenage girl suicide bomber israel" or some variation of that, and got those links. Those aren't bookmarked on my web browser or anything. Also, what's wrong with MEMRI? I mean, the whole point of the site is to point out the negative things that are being shown to millions in the Arab/Muslim world. They aren't (as far as I know) making these things up.

[Englander]

37. "But you know, it is possible, for those with moderate levels of ...

intelligence, to read from ANY source and still discern what's the truth and what's bullshit."

Yes,there's also bias,and then there's extreme prejudice;
I guess it's up to the individual as to whether they can
differentiate between the two...

[simcha_6]

14. I don't know any military that takes that approach.

[bemildred]

15. How about that? nt

[simcha_6]

16. What does nt or n/t mean?

[bemildred]

17. "no text" as in the title or subject is the whole message. nt

[Djinn]

18. facts are

stood over teenager and emptied his gun into her at point blank range and said he'd have done it even if she were three - that's not "disgraceful" it's a war crime.

disgraceful is a messy house

[Englander]

19. It is clear that yer defintion of the meaning of the word "fact" & ..

"information" differs from mine.Here is an article from November,on the radio exchanges at the time of the incident.

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Wednesday November 24, 2004
The Guardian

"...But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".

The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.

At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html

[Nadav]

20. What is unsaid..

In this situation, what is understood, is not said. It is not said on the tape that there was or could be a bomb in her bag, because - duh- that was understood by the soldiers. The tape does not eliminate the scene of the event - an area that was clearly identified as a military zone. The possibility is there that she was coerced into running toward the checkpoint, despite the advise of school students, who warned her of the danger.

This does not excuse the way that Captain "R" handled the situation. The soldiers were clearly appalled by his macho actions, and it is a sad fact that many soldiers do take a macho attitude in uniform.

[Englander]

21. Are we talking about the same incident?

It is not said on the exchanges that Iman was anything other than a schoolgirl
who was scared to death,because it was clear to those who witnessed what happened
that Iman,was,a schoolgirl who was carrying a satchel,which contained schoolbooks.

There's a word for what "R" did,executing a defenceless,scared & innocent schoolgirl,
and "macho" is most definitely not that word.

[bemildred]

22. It is an interesting notion of what is "manly" isn't it? nt