Thread introducing ourselves

[LeftishBrit]

The mods have given permission for us to have a thread saying something about ourselves, our backgrounds, and where we are 'coming from' - which may possibly help us to see each other not just as friends vs enemies of 'our side'.

We can all give as much or as little info as we wish. I will avoid giving too much detailed information about myself, as the Internet is the Internet. But:

I am a British woman, of mostly Ashkenazi Jewish descent, but with other things, mostly Scottish, mixed in. I have some relatives in Israel (including active 'peace campers'), and also some in the United States and Canada. I have a very international collection of friends and colleagues, and this is one factor in my being depressed by endless divisions and conflicts - e.g. why should my Israeli and Iranian friends be set against each other? Professionally, I am a researcher in an area unrelated to Middle Eastern politics.

In my own country, I am a pro-public-services, pro-welfare-state, anti-cuts, anti-Tory voter, who came of age politically in the Thatcher years, and still regard her as the model of all that I oppose politically in the UK! I am not affiliated to a specific party, and have felt betrayed by both Blair and Clegg. I voted LibDem last time, and will probably vote Labour next time. Am a strong Obama fan, despite having always realized that he is not as left-wing as I am!

As regards I/P, I am a strong supporter of Peace Now, the Alliance for Middle East Peace, and of a two-state solution. There are few politicians who enthuse me (to put it mildly) on either the Israeli or Palestinian side. and colleagues, and this is one factor in my being depressed by endless divisions and conflicts - e.g. why should my Israeli and Iranian friends be set against each other? Professionally, I am a researcher in an area unrelated to Middle Eastern politics.

In my own country, I am a pro-public-services, pro-welfare-state, anti-cuts, anti-Tory voter, who came of age politically in the Thatcher years, and still regard her as the model of all that I oppose politically in the UK! I am not affiliated to a specific party, and have felt betrayed by both Blair and Clegg. I voted LibDem last time, and will probably vote Labour next time. Am a strong Obama fan, despite having always realized that he is not as left-wing as I am!

As regards I/P, I am a strong supporter of Peace Now, the Alliance for Middle East Peace, and of a two-state solution. I am strongly against war on one side, and terrorism - basically war without an official army - on the other; especially when civilians are killed and injured. There are few politicians who enthuse me (to put it mildly) on either the Israeli or Palestinian side. I prefer the Meretz party to other parties in Israel. At the moment, all Palestinian leaders seem to be doing a very bad job of governing, unfortunately; but I think Fayyad's approach to statehood is more constructive than that of the others.

[RaleighNCDUer]

1. You've been here a long time, and been a valued voice, if I may say so,

so what prompted the "introduce myself" after six years?

[LeftishBrit]

2. Thanks - it's more that I think it would be good if many of us introduced ourselves

Normally not feasible on the I/P forum due to the rules about OPs having to be recently-published articles; but Lithos made an exception for our having this thread.

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. OK, I get what you're saying.

I seldom go into the different forums, but post in just about any of them by way of Latest and Greatest.

As far as I/P goes, my interest is...complicated.

I'm a 57 year old lifelong Democrat. I always had a strong affinity for Israel. As an army brat I was a second-hand witness to the Holocaust, my father being stationed in Germany in early 60s, and seeing how very ordinary life was in Germany such a sort time after the horrors - Germany is no Mordor. It taught me the banality of evil years before I ever heard that phrase. I read everything I could, as a kid, about Israel, from biographies and histories to the novels of Leon Uris and John Hersey's "The Wall". I admired the kibbutz movement, with its overall secularist and socialist underpinnings.

Many years later, while I was still a 'seeker', I converted to Judaism - and though now I identify as an atheist, I still still (bizarrely) see myself as a convert to secular Judaism. Perhaps a good part of that is I converted in the 80s, just as the Israeli right was coming to dominate, with the invasion of Lebanon, and that caused a real crisis of conscience.

I have always believed in the two-state solution, as that was the original partition, and while the 48 borders were untenable (largely do to improper population counts and the isolation of Jerusalem from Israel), the pre-67 borders should be the starting point of negotiation. The occupied territories are just that - occupied, not part of Israel, and Gaza and the West Bank should be free of Israeli settlement.

I have, in this forum, been accused of being anti-Semitic because of my despising of the power of Israel's radical right and my support for Palestinian rights. At the same time, I have unswerving belief if the rightness of Israel's existence.

I guess, like this forum itself, I'm conflicted.

[oberliner]

6. What post led to your being accused of being anti-semitic?

What in particular was it that you wrote that led another poster to make that accusation? I assume that other poster's comment was deleted, but do you recall any details of that incident?

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. I don't remember the specifics - I think it was a thread about the

Rachel Corrie incident (which to this day I don't believe was an accident), or maybe the Gaza incursion a couple years ago - I really don't remember. I commented on the strident militarism and excessive force, and the collective punishment of Palestinians by the Israeli government, and was accused of claiming that Israel has no right to defend itself.

I got so angry I walked away from the conversation, because the point I was trying to make was that was the OPPOSITE of Israel defending itself - that all it was doing was justifying their enemies violence.

I've tended to avoid I/P threads for the most part since then.

[LeftishBrit]

3. Unfortunately that last two paragraphs in that got duplicated, and it's now too late to edit!

Sorry about that.

[jwirr]

4. Thank you. I am a 69 year old white woman with 3 daughters, 5

grandchildren, 9 great grandchildren. I was born and grew up in NE Iowa, went to college in a small NE town and then on to the University of Iowa for a MSW.

But one of those daughters has been the driving force in my life. She is severely disabled. When I was married she was fairly easy to care for but after the divorce I was a single mother raising 3 daughters. I was unable to work outside the home because she needed full time care. While I went to college my parents helped with her but to go to the UI and while I looked for work I placed her in an institution which was the only option in those days. She was abused successive times while there and that determined not only my political interests but it also ended any looking for full time work. I took her home for the next 45 years. But I also became an advocate for others like her and the move to community based care for all groups.

As to being a Democrat - I think I was born one. My father and mother were strong Democrats and taught their four children to be the same - thus I can honestly say that I am a FDR Democrat. I remember setting on my mothers lap while she cried listening to his funeral procession on the radio. All the events that have happened since the assignation of JFK have joined together to determine my values but especially the death of RFK - I still have his autographed photo up beside the one of FDR that my parents owned. I am as liberal as they come. I am also a Christian and not ashamed of it not will I ever be. That is not to say that I am not ashamed of a good share of the people who label themselves Christian but never act like it.

Today I am retired and living with my grandson who is in college. I am actively carrying on the education my father gave me to my great grandchildren. I love DU and all the people on it even when they disagree with me.

Peace.

[Ken Burch]

8. I'm a 50 year old American, raised Presbyterian, with both Jewish and Muslim relatives

Ancestry mainly Scottish, with a bit of Irish, English, French and, yes, German thrown in.

A widower and a grandfather, looking to re-enter social life. Raised by a Republican mother who's become a progressive Democrat in her more recent years. Bachelor's degree from a small college and will enter graduate school(if all goes to plan)when I retire in a few years.

Interested in music, theatre, the study of history and and varying types of humor. Relatively tolerable company on a good day. Vegetarian and likes to cook(god, this is sounding like something for an online dating service or something...). If anyone in this forum ever showed up in my town, would like to meet them for coffee or something.

Work as a crewmember on the Alaska Marine Highway system(the state ferryboat system). Had various state jobs and private sector jobs before that. Member of the Inlandboatman's Union of the Pacific(Maritime division of the International Longshore Workers' Union).


ideologically, I'm a backer of democratic socialism, constructed in a decentralized and worker-managed a way as possible, and support free universal healthcare, free education through university level, full funding for arts and full availability to all for the means of creative production.

As to the Israel/Palestine issue:

Grew up with the usual romanticized images of the creation of Israel. Still admire some of the early socialist values of the state. Despair for anything progressive ever happening within Israel again, but recognize that that's not really my business. Don't want that state dismantled, but do want an acknowledgment that the Arabs of Palestine did suffer unjustly in the state's creation and that, if they don't get right of return for the dispossessions of 1948 and 1967, they must get full compensation for what happened to them and an admission that what was done to them was wrong. Want Jewish people to live in peace and safety, want the Israeli Arab population to be freed from the discrimination they've experienced within Israel, and want the Palestinian people to have a state comprising all of the West Bank and Gaza, with a guarantee that Israel would never do anything to attempt to undermine or destabilize that state in exchange for an agreement that Palestinians would make peace with Israel. See a unitary state as a long-term possibility, but it's not the time for that. Believe that, in addition to ending military hostilities, a real reconciliation process must be begun, one in which the victims on both sides are recognized and the injustices committed on both sides are rectified and compensated for.

Believe that it is wrong for Palestinians to compare the Occupation to Naziism...by the same token, believe that it's equally wrong to invoke the Holocaust to justify what the Israeli government does in the name of "security". Reject unequivocally the idea that criticism of Israeli government and military actions is driven by antisemitism. Recognize at the same time that antisemitism, like all other prejudices, must be called out and fought against at every turn. Believe that some Israeli government actions have probably done more to provoke antisemitism than they did to fight it.

Believe that the military Occupation of the West Bank must end now, and a process for dismantling the settlements must be set up as soon as possible. Once this is set up, negotiations should then begin to allow those who are actually descendants of the indigenous Jewish residents of the West Bank to return, with the understanding that they'd live as Palestinian citizens and enjoy equal rights in a Palestinian state.

Find this one of the most informative discussion forums I've ever been involved in. I always learn something I didn't know before.

[Lithos]

9. To kick this up

Wish more would comment here and thank LeftishBrit for her openness.

My political background is shaped by my own family politics and represents classical historical American "Progressive" and "Populist" which really can not defined using the European Leftist/Rightest nomenclature. Previously I despised Reaganomics and now I despise the Koch family and the their astro-turf Teabaggers as nothing more than racists and bigots. W/r to Obama, I have been disappointed as I think he should be a bit more aggressive including more use of the bully pulpit. But, I know I will have no issues voting for him again in 2012 knowing I would rather build from his baseline than from the GOP. (Yes, there are huge differences between the GOP and the Democratic Party)

With regards, to I/P, I have written in the past that I am a two stater who believes negotiations should begin with the pre-1967 borders. I think if things were left to open negotiation, ultimately that Jerusalem's core will end up with Israel, though Israel should be prepared to pay with land from pre-1948. But that requires a moderate approach. I also believe that moderates are sacrificed daily by extremists on the various poles and that these extremists hold both the initiative and the tipping point power. I have no love for the politicians who run things in Israel and Palestine and despise the limited vision and narrow minded agendas which seem to be pushed to the detriment of the many.

[King_David]

12. Very surprised.

I have been lurking this forum (and others on the internet) for a long time and am very surprised at how common a view of I/P we share.

I agree ' ultimately that Jerusalem's core will end up with Israel, though Israel should be prepared to pay with land from pre-1948 ( I think post-1948 tho)
and also that some accommodation will have to made with respect to Maale Adumim and Ariel,probably based on something like the Geneva Accords.

I also think that most Jewish posters on this forum come across (incorrectly) as being more hard line than we really are.

The reason being is that they see Israel attacked from all angles and feel it a duty to defend.

The Left has taken up the anti-Israel cause (so to speak) and its not really a Left wing-Right wing issue.Jews in the main are brought up intrinsically left wing,but nationalists (its common ,Quebec separatists,the most nationalistic of Québécoise are also very left wing)

Most of us have family in Israel,attended Hebrew school or send our kids there,participate at Synagogues and community events where Israel is central to our Jewish lives.

Yom Ha-atzmaut is just as much a Jewish holiday as is Rosh Hashanah now days.

I do agree there will be no breakthrough or movement until the moderates stop being `sacrificed daily by extremists on the various poles `(on both sides)

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Deleted...

[King_David]

15. I personally know lots and lots of people who post here

And we share our views.

I did not divide the forum , I was just talking about the posts by Jewish people that I know.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Deleted...wrong thread...

Not the place for this...

[King_David]

18. Its not important as to who posts

Everyone here as an opinion.

But I am sure you will agree that an I/P forum about the Palestinian conflict with the Jewish State would attract a lot of Palestinian people and Jewish people.

Would you not?

Jewish voices for peace seems to attract Jewish interest also.

Even though I have been here a short time Lots and Lots of people( who post here regularly) urged me to join this forum.

I knew them before joining. :)

[Violet_Crumble]

17. A question about something you said...

I know the intention of the thread isn't to ask questions, but I just want to get in with this one...

I think if things were left to open negotiation, ultimately that Jerusalem's core will end up with Israel, though Israel should be prepared to pay with land from pre-1948. But that requires a moderate approach.

Are you saying that's how you think things could go, or that you yrself think that'd be a fair and moderate solution?

[Lithos]

19. Answer

I think it is how it will go for a variety of reasons, mostly due to the anticipated resolve of the Israeli government. The core of Jerusalem at this point is an Israeli city.

It is only fair if the Palestinians achieve suitable and equitable consideration in return. This might be land, water and/or limited RoR - depends on how things work out and how much of a slice of the core of Jerusalem is traded. I personally think there will remain a gerrymandered segment/corridor which will be given to the Palestinians mostly for access to several key religious areas. Of course, I would think that the current religious entities would retain control of their various locations with the Israeli government being held responsible for maintaining the current status quo and allowing generally free access.

The real question is, for any land swap it would probably make more sense to add land around the Gaza Strip. However, given the dual Palestinian governments in play, would a West-Bank oriented Palestinian entity be willing to trade rights to Jerusalem for land around a hostile Hamas lead Gaza strip? Just don't see it happening.

[shaayecanaan]

10. For what its worth...

As most would know, I am of broadly Lebanese Catholic descent. My father is however Assyrian, and grew up speaking Aramaic, the only Semitic language apart from Mendaic with an unbroken tradition stretching back over 3000 years (given that Hebrew is a revived language). I now live in Australia.

My political views are relatively old-fashioned democratic socialist. I believe that the State should own and operate all essential health services, education and utilities. I am somewhat skeptical of liberals and of much of the new Left. Marx said that the problem with democratic socialism was that the workers' party would succumb to bourgeois influences and eventually become the party of the alternative ruling class. Unfortunately, to the extent that the Left today is concerned mainly with gender, ethnicity and sexuality rather than the interests of working class people, I think that prediction has largely been borne out.

I am anti-imperialist and strongly support Palestinian national aspirations. I believe that any nation on Earth is entitled to fight for its freedom - with the pen preferably, but with the sword alternatively. I see the Palestinian issue as something of a litmus test for any principled leftist. Its easy to pay lip service to poverty, to health and education - not so easy when it comes to the Palestinians.

[Lithos]

11. Amharic claims a chain back to about 1000 BCE

And is the the second most spoken Semitic language in the world. Given it is a living language, what you see today of course differs from then.

L-

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bemildred]

22. I'm still thinking.

:hi:

The only reason I can think of to want to reveal myself here is the very real respect I have for LB.

Male, WASP, senior, Amurkin, married to a Jewish woman a long time now, but that has nothing to do with my interest here, she does not care about that, and neither do I. Anti-dogmatist and anti-reactionary is the only political character I would give myself. The future is where we are going, and we had best get with the program and keep our minds open.

I think you have to give Lithos credit for longevity too, and a number of others who have been here long enough, you know who you are.

I suppose you can tell by whether you remember Aidoneus. A taste of Aidoneus:

Just because one opposes a side does not equal support for the other. There are complex principles at hand, most of which have nothing to do with overly
simplistic "with or against" formulas. Fallacies in logic to the contrary are of the most crude vulgarity and are an intentionally baseless smear put forth by the
unimaginable and conned at best, or vituperate liars at worst. If I thought you'd have a sporting chance in it I'd challenge you to paste in a single point of proof
that the Left has "sided" with Saddam Hussein even though he is curiously the very antithesis of what the "Left" stands for--I'll even ask for so far as a single
solitary compliment to do directly with him or his works not relating to the US involvements. In fact it was the "Left" you so baselessly deride that opposed
Saddam Hussein while the Reagan-Bush regime was arming him to the teeth as a treasured ally. That photo of Hussein and Rumsfeld happily shaking hands
looks so precious, one would think they were going steady. The hypocrisy and short memories on the part of the Bush regime and it's apologists is astounding.
You can try anyway, though I'm certain you won't come up with anything except laughable tripe that may as well be directly lifted from David Horowitz (though
don't worry about plagarizing, that's apparently ok for certain people to do around here).

Actually, invading Cambodia to depose the Pol Pot regime *was* all but deemed illegal by the US & China, and Vietnam was punished severely for doing the
world a favour by deposing that US/China-backed regime. In fact it was then Ford & Carter that attempted to rearm the Khmer Rouge forces after Vietnam
deposed them.

If Saddam is so bad for killing Kurds, why do the various US regimes snuggle up so closely to Turkey? Turkey has destroyed 2000 Kurdish villages and
thousands of Kurdish civilians in the last decade--with the knowledge, aid, massive assistance, and most importantly approval of the Bush1/Clinton/Bush2
regimes--, and has employed the use of chemical weapons and napalm against Kurdish "terrorists" (read: tens of thousands of civilians), yet there are no
wars against the Turkish state. Why is that? Oh, right. That's because they, like the Tashkent dictator Karimov, do their rapes and tortures while as a loyal
colony of the Washingon DC regimes, thus it's A-OK. Saddam Hussein's crime in the eyes of Washington DC regimes is not the atrocities that Iraq carries
out, but that it doesn't do so under the guardianship of the US regimes.

A short history of US/CIA involvement in Kurdistan is available here, and it isn't pretty:
http://www.zmag.org/zmag/articles/dec96kurdi.htm

Run a search on Mike Galos' posts, in a few of them you'll find a visual graph showing Palestinian so-called "terrorist" attacks per month divided by target (or
check the I"D"F's website itself). You'll notice that almost a constant majority of them are against military units and bases, contrary to your remark. But even
then it is attacks on military targets that are still called "terrorist"! This is an absurd bit of intentionally misleading propaganda on the I"D"F's part.

The Islamic Jihad performed a carefully prepared ambush on strictly Israeli military forces in Hebron/al-Khalil, yet all of the hysterical jackals on the
telescreens and printmedia still referred to it as a "terrorist" attack, even as facts to the contary were available. The reliance on such nebulous labels as a
conversational crutch is a weak tactic, especially when employed in the task of intentional manipulation. As far as killing civilians, women and children, look at
the headlines here lately. Your beloved Israeli "Defense" Force is also killing children and those up to 95yrs old as they sit in cars, women, so-called
"militants", and MAYBE a "terrorist" if they're lucky--but even then they have to blow up everybody in the apartment with a 1-ton bomb just to get one. So just
a little tip for you, don't throw stones in glass houses.

-- Aidoneus

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Aidoneus? Now you've gone and made me feel all nostalgic...

Along with absynthe, he was one of my favourites. I just went to look for an old thread with some of my faves in it, but I got a scripting error when I logged into RetroDU v1.0. Remember when the forum guidelines were open for people to post in when they had something to say or ask about the guidelines or other stuff? That used to be the best part of the forum. I suspect that if the forum guidelines were opened again for comment, things would go back to being just like they were in the good old days ;)

[bemildred]

25. Yes, Absynthe, a few others, The Magistrate used to show up now and then

and write some dissertation for us. And then there were all the pure and passionate advocates ...

I find my attendence is much more uneven than it once was, I often have better things to do.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. And let's not forget DuctTapeFatwa. He had the best sense of humour ever..

I'm not here nearly as much as I used to be, and I tend to drift in and drift out and scan rather than read many of the threads. Maybe distance and time makes it seem that way, or maybe I'm just older and crankier, but back around 2003-2004 the unbending partisan foot-soldiers of Team Israel and Team Palestine had interesting personalities, and in some cases were very likeable people....

[bemildred]

35. "Things fall apart, the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,"

THE SECOND COMING

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


Or perhaps it's just us that falls apart ...

[shaayecanaan]

42. Maybe Team Palestine here should elect a General...

I'm willing to put my hand up. I'm certainly qualified in that I have next to no military experience (just like most Generals) which might otherwise lead to unwanted feelings of compassion and sentimentality for the lives of the enlisted men.

Maybe the people in charge could give me an avatar image with a few medals and pips on it.

[bemildred]

53. You would make a lousy General Sir.

So would I for that matter, and so are many, even most, real Generals, from what I can see. However, you are a worthy poster, and did I but remember you a little farther back you would have been on my list.

:hi:

[azurnoir]

54. ah but sir I thought the very idea of having a 'General'

an anathema of sorts at least for the pro-Palestinian posters here, those who have the 'nobility' that comes of being a righteous but disorganized mob

[bemildred]

55. Well, this is the internet, and if that is not a disorganized mob I don't know what is ... nt

[shaayecanaan]

60. Thanks for the kind words...

Menae: I had thought you'd be amenable
to a scribe's life, books and law

Lepis: Nay, a coward best be a General,
for no General dies in war.

- Middleton (can't remember the play, Im quoting from memory)

[legin]

56. Put me down as an Aidoneus fan too. (n/t)

.

[bemildred]

57. Hey.

:hi:

[legin]

59. Hi also

:hi:

:)

[azurnoir]

20. and it is with a great deal of trepidation that I reply

However I am a 55 year old White woman, who has been married and divorced once and is currently in a long term relationship (think shack-up) he says I'm his wife I differ and say I'd prefer the title 'concubine' :-), I have 4 kids 3 adult daughters from my marriage and a teenage son from my current relationship eta no grand kids for the foreseeable future
I grew up in a basically 'old fashioned' fiscal conservative Republican family, I differed because even as a kid what I saw around me did match with what I was told the world was.
My interest in I/P came and went and came back again for most of my childhood and younger adult years I was ProIsrael and when one pays attention mostly to US news that is really quite easy, again when one or me comes face to face with reality or people who have lived the reality of the mid-east that can change

As for my I/P beliefs I believe that the Palestinians should have state based on the pre-1967 borders with Jerusalem as a shared capital, as far as RoR I do not believe that Israel will allow for any Palestinian return and believe Israel's current government may look to encouraging some of Israel's current non-Jewish Arab population to 'emigrate' to Palestine
It should also be noted I have no 'illusions' as to this being a completely peaceful transfer of power as I have said in the past there are too many extremists on both sides for that to happen that being some of the Islamist fringe groups, possibly Hamas and the Israeli citizens who already live in the West Bank and claim their presence there is to make a Palestinian state impossible

[bemildred]

58. Yeah, I have 4 kids too, so far none have seen fit to reproduce.

My only hope seems to be the youngest. OTOH, I think people who have kids should really like kids, so it's hard to object.

[eyl]

21. Well...

I'm a 35- (as of next Sunday :)) year-old Israeli man, currently living in Jerusalem. I did spend several years living in the US when young.

I spent most of my military service (ignoring training and such) in various points in the West Bank; I served near Nablus, Jericho and the Jordan Valley. I actually extended my conscript tour, spending a total of ~4.5 years in service, and am currently a reservist (and as such get called up occasionally).

As for education, I completed a Masters in physics a few years ago, and am currently gainfully employed.

I currently don't post as often as I used to and only check in every several days; since my son was born (11 months old this week!) I've been rather short on time, and unlike my previous job at the university I don't currently work with an Internet connection handy.

As far as I/P is concerned, I started out thinking of myself as a center-rightist. I was a bit shocked to recently consider that my views are now closer to the center-left - I'm not sure if I changed or the political spectrum shifted around me :).

In general, I'm more concerned about pragmatism than rights (although I enjoy discussion of the history and legalities involved, especially the military aspects) - I don't think there's a solution where everyone will fell justice has been fully served, and as such I prefer to give rights and justice lesser weight. I believe the end result will be a two-state solution along the 67 lines in general, though I have serious concerns about the details, especially the security arrangements.

[shaayecanaan]

24. Re

"As far as I/P is concerned, I started out thinking of myself as a center-rightist. I was a bit shocked to recently consider that my views are now closer to the center-left - I'm not sure if I changed or the political spectrum shifted around me."

Probably the latter I would think. I remarked in a post a while back that if Eshkol or Sharrett were still in power in Israel the peace negotiations with the Palestinians could probably be wrapped up in a couple of weeks.

Still, those governments are gone and are not coming back, if the polls are any indication.

[oberliner]

26. Polls indicate the opposite of what you've claimed

PM Netanyahu's approval Hits New Low of 32%

The popularity of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu has hit a new low, according to a Channel 10 News poll carried out by Prof. Camille Fuchs.

Only 32% of the respondents - just under one third - expressed support for Netanyahu. The number was down from 34% last month and 38% in the month before.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/142616

From Arutz Sheva, no less!

[azurnoir]

27. Interesting that only numbers and not reasons are given

if one reads talkbacks from Israeli papers one could get the idea it may be due to the perception that Netanyahu is not right wing enough, that he is not taking strong enough actions against Palestinians in both the Wst Bank and Gaza

[azurnoir]

28. However this thread is for the purpose of introducing ourselves

not political debate, should we 'assume' that one poster has spoken for a group?

[shaayecanaan]

29. The last poll of voting intentions

was conducted in February, and showed that the right wing bloc would pick up a few more seats if elections were held. They could expect to have a 12-seat majority:-

http://knessetjeremy.com/2011/02/15/latest-channel-1-politika-poll-kadima-likud-31-26-right-left-66-54/

Approval ratings of the leaders of various parties are not necessarily a reliable indicator of voting intentions.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

36. Just to clarify: no one *has* to take part in the thread

And lots of people haven't.

Maybe more will do so as time goes on; maybe not. But I don't want anyone to feel pressed to do so.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

39. This poster is trying to goad me - I'm not falling for the trap

There is a lot more to this - PM me if interested.

[King_David]

40. It`s better to be careful nt

[shaayecanaan]

41. Its worth bearing in mind that this is an internet discussion board...

and the stakes are very low.

I always remind myself, whenever I post here, that only about twelve people are reading this. Its kind of like an internet debater's "memento mori" - it helps one keep things in perspective.

I find posting here is sometimes a cathartic experience, and it amuses me from time to time. I wouldnt put much store in it except for that. You'll only get disillusioned.

[King_David]

48. I agree

A lot of people take it very personally though.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. And just to clarify that I never said anything remotely like that...

I think it's important that I stress that seeing as how my posts have been zapped, yet nasty posts from Oberliner remain untouched. It just confirms what I said earlier about wishing I'd followed my instincts and not opened up in this thread, and I wish I hadn't encouraged others to do so. This place is full of too much hostility and mistrust for any of it to have had any positive affect at all...

on edit: I've got copies of all those posts of mine that were just deleted, and there was nothing in any of them that violated any rules or were the slightest bit nasty (not that being nasty is deletable when it comes to some posters in this forum). Removing them while leaving Oberliner's false accusations standing just makes it look as though I did post something out of line, which I most definately didn't...

[LeftishBrit]

44. Look, PLEASE lets' not use this thread for personal bickering about who said what and who was worse

I got special permission to post the thread so that we might see more where people are coming from, and I don't want to see it locked or turned into a debate about personalities rather than issues. I think it does show that most of us have more similar views about the conflict than the stereotypes would suggest; though obviously there are points of difference about how to achieve the goals.

Yes, I know that as Shaayecanaan points out, it's just a small internet forum, and none of us will solve the conflict, save the world, start a nuclear war, get put in jail, or win the Nobel Peace Prize by posting our opinions here.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. I'm not bickering. I'm telling you that what you made out that I'd said was wrong...

I sent you a copy of what I'd originally posted. Sorry, but you made out that I'd told someone they were obligated to introduce themselves. I never said or implied anything of the sort. That's not a debate about personalities - it's correcting something that was incorrect....

on edit: I've asked the mods to delete my post where I posted personal info about myself and spoke about my views. I made a mistake posting that, and regret posting it in the first place.

When it comes to most of us being closer in our views than we thought, I already knew the views of most who posted in this thread, and aren't surprised that there's some closeness in their and my views. The others I didn't see anything much at all in common with, and that's no surprise either...

[LeftishBrit]

46. OK. I apologize if I implied that you said anyone was forced to introduce themselves

I was attempting to deal with the situation tactfully, and it evidently misfired and ended up more tactless rather than more tactful. My real point was that I didn't want you use my thread (and after all, I don't post many threads, even ordinary OPs) to complain about Oberliner. That's what I meant by personal bickering - not your correcting my statement. At the time, I preferred to be less blunt than that, and put it as 'nobody needs to post if they don't want to' rather than 'don't complain about other individuals on this thread'. But, as sometimes happens, trying to put it tactfully may have backfired.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. You were 'dealing' with a situation that didn't exist...

I was not complaining about other individuals in this thread, and as I've got the post in question right in front of me and know exactly what I asked the other poster, I'm not sure why yr singling me out or even why yr accusing me of this. But thanks for the back-handed apology, I guess. Y'know, if yr interested in sorting out the misunderstanding, then please reply to the PM I sent you trying to sort it out. I regret ever deciding to participate in this thread, and as I'm supposedly such a disruption to it, and have gotten all the enjoyment out of reminiscing about old times with bemildred that I'm going to get, I'm bailing and thanks to the magic of the hide thread button will steer well clear, which is what I should have done in the first place....

[Mosby]

50. I'm here for you Violet

If you need to talk through this just PM me, I can only imagine how hard this must be for you.
:(

[oberliner]

49. Step back from the edge and dial it down

Just a friendly suggestion from an "unknown" poster.

[idontwantaname]

30. 1st generation asian american

i traveled to jerusalem, tel aviv, tulkarem, nablus, bethlehem and hebron in 2004.

i spent a good deal of time in the I/P forum as well as with local groups, but got severely burned out on the opposition and dropped out of the scene. i consider myself moderate, though i sit far left of my coworkers.

i am a bicycle enthusiast and spend much of my free time thinking about or doing bicycle, or bicycle related activities. a friend recently reminded me of this site and convinced me to stop by and see what all is going on. hope all is well with everyone.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. Hey! I remember you! Good to see you again...

Check yr inbox in a bit :)

[LeftishBrit]

51. Thanks to all who have replied...

and I also understand why many might not want to.

Are there any writers that people particularly like and recommend? In my case, I like Bradley Burston, Larry Derfner and Ray Hanania, but most of all the Bitter Lemons blog.

[shaayecanaan]

52. I think Avi Schlaim probably gets the most plaudits here...

I would recommend also Chibli Mallat as someone whose heart is in the right place:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chibli_Mallat