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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:38 AM
Original message
Hearing echoes in 'Seven Jewish Children'
By LARRY DERFNER



After reading a lot of the pro and (mainly) con about Seven Jewish Children - a play for Gaza, I prepared to write a column saying that while it took an excessively critical view of Israel, it was not anti-Semitic, and that there was a big difference between the two.

Being a responsible journalist, I then set aside 10 minutes to actually read the play, and I found that not only isn't it anti-Semitic, it isn't excessively critical of Israel, either. As far as I'm concerned, it's just critical enough - which is to say very, very critical. More precisely, this short play by Britain's Caryl Churchill expresses moral outrage at Israel - which is what I felt during the war in Gaza, and what lots of other Jews and gentiles who want the best for this country felt as well.

(snip)

She's saying Jewish victimhood has not been redemptive; that instead, it's fueled Israel's victimization of Palestinians and been used as an excuse for it. She doesn't portray Palestinians as pacifists, noting, in the words of her characters, that they're known to "set off bombs in cafes," that they include "Hamas fighters" and that "they're attacking with rockets." But her view in the play is that Israel exaggerates the Palestinian threat out of all proportion and gives many, many times better than it gets.

Seven Jewish Children says this country has become hysterical with fear and aggression, that the more hell we inflict on innocent Palestinians, the more desperate we are to deny any wrongdoing and the more medals we pin on our chests.

(snip)

...None of the characters is a murderer or a proponent of murder. None is a sadist. What all of them are is callous about what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, and by turns worried or defiant about how to justify it. No Nazis here, no Baruch Goldsteins, but rather people who've suffered too much and caused too much suffering, and who have become severely coarsened in the process. Read the "worst" monologue, the climactic one:

"Tell her, tell her about the army, tell her to be proud of the army. Tell her about the family of dead girls, tell her the names, why not, tell her the whole world knows why shouldn't she know? tell her there's dead babies, did she see babies? tell her she's got nothing to be ashamed of. Tell her they did it to themselves. Tell her they want their children killed to make people feel sorry for them, tell them I don't feel sorry for them, tell her not to be sorry for them, tell her we're the ones to be sorry for, tell her they can't talk suffering to us. Tell her we're the iron fist now, tell her it's the fog of war, tell her I laughed when I saw the dead policemen, tell her they're animals living in rubble now, tell her I wouldn't care if we wiped them out, the world would hate us is the only thing, tell her I don't care if the world hates us, tell her we're better haters, tell her we're chosen people, tell her I look at one of their children covered in blood and what do I feel? tell her all I feel is happy it's not her."

I heard comments similar to these from some of my relatives during the war. Going back through the 24 years I've lived here, I've heard comments like these from relatives, neighbors, fellow soldiers - I've heard it and read it all over the place. I've heard it from Diaspora Jews too.

Who are we kidding? Does that monologue represent the voice of every Israeli and "pro-Israeli" Diaspora Jew? Of course not. But is it an authentic voice, a view of Palestinians held by many, many Jews here and abroad even if they don't express it publicly? Has that voice not gotten louder? And when push comes to shove with the Palestinians, as it did in Operation Cast Lead, does Seven Jewish Children not echo the inner (and often outer) voice of Israel at war?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239710762124&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Yes.
It is the problem I have had with a succession of relatives and friends both here and in Israel. It is why I have renounced my religion; there is nothing noble about this attitude.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. I'm a devout atheist myself; but why would you renounce your religion over a government's policies?
Nothing in the Jewish faith prescribes hawkishness toward Palestinians (or the opposite, if it comes to that).
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. A lot of Judaism is social
It's much harder to be a Jew without other Jews than it is for a Christian or a Muslim, I think - I am unaware of any tradition of Jewish anchorites, for example.

There certainly *are* liberal, pro-Palestinian rights Jewish communities - several of my relatives are part of extremely left-wing Jewish communities in North London - but they're a relatively small minority, which means that for many left-wing Jews outside places with large Jewish communities, being actively Jewish probably means spending a lot of time association with people with whom you disagree about a lot of the material that forms the basis for your association.

I've occasionally contemplated doing more about my Jewish roots, but that is one of the things that has put me off (the main one is that I don't believe in God, and I can't imagine that going down well...)
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. You could try the CofE.
They've actually had BISHOPS who proclaimed themselves nonbelievers.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-30-09 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
41. Most Rankins I have known have been Presbyterian...
I must admit, I'd heretofore assumed you were a convert.

It's much harder to be a Jew without other Jews than it is for a Christian or a Muslim

Everything's relative. The fewer you are the closer knit you generally become. Its a lot different being Christian in the near East than in the West, as I've remarked here before.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-30-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Donald Ian Rankin is just an alias.

It's the name of my favourite jig (you can see music or hear a midi of it at http://trillian.mit.edu/~jc/cgi/abc/tunefind?P=donald+ian+rankin&find=FIND&m=title&W=wide&limit=1000&thresh=5&V=1&fmt=single ), and it was written by a Scottish musician called Andrew Rankin, who may well have been Presbyterian.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Better you should renounce the Zionism, or work in resistance to the policies
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 12:53 AM by Ken Burch
of the Israeli government.

There's no reason to let THEM steal Judaism, any more than there is to let the "Religious Right"
in the U.S. steal Christianity.

It's what they DID with the teachings, not the teachings themselves.

Don't let the thugs take the Prophets hostage.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. Derfner certainly asks the question with fierceness. To me, the attitude he describes
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 09:18 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
is really the crux.

I think liberal zionists here feel it too. That's why there is so much support for stuff for efforts to build mutual NICENESS... like ONE VOICE... as in, if Palestinians were "good," then supporters of Israel wouldn't have to have those feelings, and if there weren't those feelings, we could make peace. I'm not just talking about terror here. There are liberal zionists who consider rock throwing "violent resistance."

That thinking might be true to some extent, but the gov't of Israel continues to incite, making it impossible for Palestinians to sustain enough "goodness" to change the attitude of Israelis. See the blog peace I posted today about nonviolence...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x272780

Why do Israeli leaders continue to torpedo peace? Because at a basic level, SOME in charge don't really want to make peace. Really, WHY? Just yesterday, another house was bulldozed in East Jerusalem, leaving a family with 7 kids homeless. WHY? WHY? WHY? Who in the hell makes these decisions? Don't they realize the consequences? Don't they realize the HATRED this engenders?

Is hatred an unreasonable response to this continued oppression?

Peace can't hinge on "perfect behavior" by Palestinians. This will forever be impossible to maintain. It's too tenuous. Peace has to come on the back of something bigger... a larger desire on the part of Israelis. This is where I believe BDS come in...
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. "Why do Israeli leaders continue to torpedo peace? Because at a basic level, SOME in charge don't
really want to make peace"?

Gee, PM, I can't IMAGINE what thread gave you the idea to post that sentence...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x272696

:evilgrin:

(Nice one, btw)
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. "Offensive" doesn't mean either "untrue" or "unjustified"
I think that Seven Jewish Children is a wonderful piece of writing that accurately skewers the sickness at the heart of modern Israeli society.

I am not surprised that it has caused a very great deal of offence, but I don't view this as a fault in it.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
4. .What is almost ironic here is that the confirmation
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 11:32 AM by azurnoir
of the attitude displayed in Seven Jewish Children is confirmed in the talkbacks to the article even while they decry the piece but also how many times have we seen from posters here "they want their children killed"


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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I thought Churchill
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 11:49 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
must have communicated with our own plant-eating-saurus!
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting. I will try and get hold of the play and see what I think of it
I do generally share Larry Derfner's views on lots of things; so this adds to my interest.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Here's a link:
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #7
29. Thanks. I have read it.
I don't think it's antisemitic or even all that anti-Israel. To me, it's about how war corrupts a nation; how it results in dehumanization of the enemy; how children grow up in an atmosphere of fear and hate. And there is no suggestion that all this is happening in a vacuum or that the Israelis want to conquer for the sake of conquest. The horrors of what was done to Jews to make them need a homeland are clearly portrayed; the Arab enemies of Israel are acknowledged to be real enemies. Nonetheless the Israeli violence and hatred are acknowledged to be fundamentally immoral.

The only phrase that I think is unfortunate is "Tell her that we're the chosen people" - I could imagine that this might indeed be said, in the context of pointing to the long history of the Jews, good and bad; but as a phrase in a play, it could feed into certain common sterotypes about Jews and Israelis. For the rest, I found it really powerful and moving, in showing a nation that has suffered too much, been threatened too much, and now responds with its own violence. And the problems of bringing up children in a setting of war, and the way that the children, and the parents protecting them, will always be to some degree corrupted. That's what war does. The child in the last vignette is not being brought up to be Baruch Goldstein; she's being brought up as a citizen of a country in chronic war.

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-30-09 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
42. Thank you for the link
Semi-sweet doggerel plaintiveness, just like everything else in the theatre these days. Ridiculous really that it attracted the controversy that it did. I hear they let people in for free, but to perfectly honest I can understand why they weren't packed to the rafters. Its certainly not anti-semitic though.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. It's a quick read, and Derfner is right- it's not anti-semitic.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Here's a good article about the play by Tony Kushner and Alisa Solomon from THE NATION:
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
15. 7 muslim children: superficial antimuslim hate that mirrors superficial antisemitic hate
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 04:17 AM by shira
http://www.bluetruth.net/2009/04/seven-muslim-children.html

Many of you will read this and think that it is a superficial, Islamophobic, hateful piece. It is. Just as "Seven Jewish Children" is a superficial, anti-Semitic, hateful piece. Those of you who felt that "Seven Jewish Children" is a literary atrocity should feel the same way about this. Please note that I am not (repeat: NOT) endorsing the sentiments reflected here. It is a literary device, a satire, a through-the-looking-glass version of Churchill's "play". But for those who feel that "yes, let's have discussion groups, let's put on this play in the interest of art and free speech": do you think the anti-Muslim version is a legitimate point of view? do you think it is appropriate to present THAT viewpoint in your theater? do you think it should be given equal time? and if not, why not? (discuss amongst yourselves...)


7 Muslim Children

1 (circa 900)
Tell him how wonderful it is
Tell him that we won
Tell him about the swords and the rivers of blood
Don’t tell him about the swords and the blood
Tell him we’re doing it in the Name of the Prophet
Tell him they will all convert or be dhimmis
Don’t tell him about dhimmis
Tell him this will all be ours forever
Tell him al-Andalus is Dar al-Islam


2 (circa 1800)
Tell him how we used to rule
Tell him how the world changed
Tell him it was the Europeans’ fault
Don’t tell him it was the Europeans’ fault
Tell him we will go back to al-Andalus and all the other lands one day
Don’t tell him about al-Andalus

3 (circa 1900)
Tell him the Jews are coming back
Don’t tell him the Jews are coming back
Don’t tell him they were ever here
Tell him they’ve always been here
Don’t tell him they’ve always been here
Tell him they want to live as a free people
Tell him they are buying the land
Don’t tell him they’re buying the land
Tell him they’re stealing our land
Tell him they love the land and are draining the swamps
Tell him we want to live where they have built hospitals and schools and roads
Don’t tell him that we didn’t build anything
Don’t tell him they love the land
Don't tell him they have prayed every day for hundreds of years to return to the land

4 (1948)
Tell him to get his gun
Tell him to shoot the Jews
Tell him to block the road
Tell him to shoot the convoys
Tell him they can’t have a country here
Tell him we were going to have a country too
Don’t tell him we were going to have a country too
Tell him the Jews will slaughter him
Tell him about Deir Yassin
Tell him about Deir Yassin
Tell him about Deir Yassin
Don’t tell him about Kfar Etzion
Don’t tell him about Latrun
Don’t tell him about “itbach-al-Yahud”
Tell him “itbach-al-Yahud”
Tell him we will drive them into the sea

5 (1967)
Tell him we’re going to go back
Tell him we’re going back to Jaffa one day
Don’t tell him we’re never going back to Jaffa
Tell him our Arab brothers will help us
Don’t tell him our Arab brothers refuse to help us
Tell him how our Arab brothers kicked out all their Jews
Don’t tell him that the Zionists took in their Jews
Don’t tell him why we can’t leave the camp
Don’t tell him why we can’t live in Cairo, or Beirut, or Damascus
Don’t tell him that it's because they hate us
Tell him they are doing this for our own good
Tell him they will help us go back to Jaffa
Tell him we’re going to go home soon
Tell him Nasser will take us home
Tell him the armies are ready
Tell him the Jews are scared
Tell him we will slaughter all of them
Don’t tell him we will slaughter all of them, even the children
Don’t tell him…..that we lost again
Don’t tell him that they’ll give it all back for peace
Tell him “no, no, no”

6 (2002)
Tell him to put on the bomb belt
Tell him he will have 72 virgins
Don’t tell him that he must die
Don’t tell him that he must kill children
Tell him the Jews aren’t human
Tell him they’re the sons of apes and pigs
Tell him they are infidels in Dar al-Islam
Tell him they let their women be free
Tell him their gays are free
Don’t tell him their gays are free (just in case…)
Tell him Allah will bless him
Tell him we will call him a hero
Don’t tell him how they will die
Don’t tell him how they will be scarred
Don’t tell him they have parents too
Don’t tell him they offered us a country again
Tell him they have no right to a country
Tell him it’s better to die than to admit it
Tell him how we danced in the streets on 9/11
Don’t tell him we danced in the streets on 9/11
Tell him it’s better to kill them than live with them

7 (2008)
Tell him to launch the rockets
Tell him to use the school yard
Don’t tell him to use the school yard
Tell him they’re afraid to fire back because the world will hate them
Don’t tell him they might fire back anyway
Tell him they must all die
Don’t tell him they might attack
Tell him we’re living in the Warsaw Ghetto
Tell him what the Warsaw Ghetto was
Don’t tell him what really happened in the Warsaw Ghetto
Don’t tell him about Auschwitz and Treblinka
Tell him they’re afraid of us and won’t attack us
Tell him we can shoot off rockets forever.
Tell him if he’s lucky the rocket will hit a kindergarten
Tell him “itbach-al-Yahud”
Tell him “Filastin hi arduna, Wa al-Yahud kilabuna”
Tell him we will go back to al-Andalus
In the Name of the Prophet

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yep, that's superficial anti-muslim hate all right
Seven Jewish Children, on the other hand, is neither superficial nor antisemitic, and the only thing it encourages hate of is Israel's attitute to the Palestinians.

One is an (accurate, well-observed and very necessary) attack on particular attitudes and thought processes that does not suggest that those attitudes are universal, the other is an (innaccurate and caricatured) attack on an entire populace.

Churchill says "thinking in this way that many Israelis think is bad".
This piece of garbage says "Muslims are bad, because they think like this".
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. interesting observation. I disagree and think both are hateful.
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 06:23 AM by shira
Most average people read both pieces and get the feeling that "most" Jews or "most" Muslims in that area truly think that way.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Quite possibly.
I have no idea what fraction of Jews do, to at least some extent, share the beliefs attacked in "Seven Jewish Children", and are to at least some extent guilty of minimising and excusing Israel's crimes against the Palestinians to their children, but I wouldn't be amazed if it was "most", sadly (a great many non-Jews do it to, especially on the American right). I think that attacking these attitudes is entirely justifiable. It's hateful in the sense that it communicates and encourages hate of the attitude it attacks, but not in the sense that there's anything wrong with it, or that it encourages hate of Jews qua Jews.

"Seven Muslim Children" is an attempt to convince the viewer that "Palestinians support killing children", plain and simple. This is not accurate.

Most supporters of Israel's policies who read Seven Jewish Children probably come away thinking "it's anti-semitic" because it's more comforting for them to do so and dismiss it than to face up to the point it makes. I doubt most readers as a whole do, though.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. let's use your words to argue the other way and see if it works, okay?
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 06:47 AM by shira
I have no idea what fraction of JewsMuslims do, to at least some extent, share the beliefs attacked in "Seven Muslim Children", and are to at least some extent guilty of minimising and excusing Palestinian crimes against Israelis to their children, but I wouldn't be amazed if it was "most", sadly (a great many non-Jews do it to, especially on the left). I think that attacking these attitudes is entirely justifiable. It's hateful in the sense that it communicates and encourages hate of the attitude it attacks, but not in the sense that there's anything wrong with it, or that it encourages hate of Muslims.

"Seven Jewish Children" is an attempt to convince the viewer that "Jews support killing children", plain and simple. This is not accurate.

Most supporters of Palestinians who read Seven Muslim Children probably come away thinking "it's anti-muslim" because it's more comforting for them to do so and dismiss it than to face up to the point it makes. I doubt most readers as a whole do, though.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. No, that doesn't work.
For two obvious reasons at least (possibly more, but these are two gaping holes in your argument I can spot even without trying).

Firstly, "Seven Muslim Children" accuses the Palestinians not merely of minimising attacks (which I'm sure many of them do) but of *encouraging* them - which is a far more serious charge, and clearly false.

Secondly, "Seven Jewish Children" is an attempt to convince the viewer "this attitude exists, and is bad". "Seven Muslim Children", by contrast, is an attempt to convince the viewer that an attidute which everyone already knows exists and is bad is held universally by the Palestinians. One is an attack on an idea, the other is an attack on a people.

The point "Seven Muslim Children" makes or tries to make is that "all the Palestinians encourage violence". I can face up to that point quite happily by saying "no they don't; a small minority do, and it's anti-Muslim to suggest otherwise". *I* think the attitude attacked by "Seven Jewish Children" really is extremely widespread and representative, but Churchill doesn't comment on this and it's not part of her play - all that matters is that it exists.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. so if 7 muslim children were written in such a way as to suggest
only a small minority of Muslims or Palestinian supporters think that way, then it would be okay?

Also - where do you find in 7 jewish children that only a small minority of Jews wrongly think this way?
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Yes, absolutely.
I think a play about where suicide bombers come from could be quite interesting, provided it didn't try to imply that more than a small number of Palestinians were guilty of such.

I don't find in 7 Jewish Children that *only* a small number of Jews think this way. I just don't find any implication that a large number do, either - the quantity indicated is "at least some", with no implicit "at most" but no implication of "more than at least some" either.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. EDITED: okay then, so in your opinion 7 jewish children
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 07:10 AM by shira
does not in any way inform the viewer that this is not a POV held by all or most jews. Thus, it's no better than any other concocted anti-jew conspiracy story like the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8IV6ZnzoDY

Hey, it may be true of a few jews, right?

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Except it's not concocted or a conspiracy theory,
The attitudes Churchill describes are ones vocally and frequently expressed on the talkback pages (and sometimes the main pages) of the Jerusalem Post, Ynetnews and even Haaretz.

If Churchill's observations weren't accurate, they would clearly be libelious. But they are.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. so the video in #23 is fine by you, according to your standards?
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Why do you even bother asking? N.T.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. I'm assuming you believe that since the video "can" pertain to a few Jews that it is legit theatre
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. No, you aren't.
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 12:09 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
You know damn well that I don't believe that, and I know damn well that you know damn well that I don't believe that.

You may think that you can caricature my beliefs as such for rhetorical effect. You may even believe that a logical consequence of the beliefs I have stated is that I "ought" to believe that (although you'd be clearly wrong to do so). But of course you don't think I actually believe that.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Isn't a mirror image supposed to be, well, a mirror image?
That thing you posted wasn't a mirror image at all. Seven Jewish Children doesn't cast Palestinians it mentions as passive (eg suicide bombers), yet that thing you posted doesn't even attempt to seek that same balance. Whoever wrote it and anyone else who thinks they're mirror images clearly doesn't have a clue what they're talking about...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. see post #23
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 10:50 AM by shira
How is 7 jewish children any less offensive than that video?

Both screeds are hateful and inciteful, Violet, and that's the point.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. also, I recommend David Hirsch's analysis on 7 jewish children
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #25
38. I'm telling you that Seven Muslim Children was NOT a mirror image of the play...
Edited on Sun Apr-26-09 02:13 AM by Violet_Crumble
I don't give a shit what totally unrelated youtube thingys you post at random in threads, coz they've got nothing to do with what I said to you about the mirror image thing...

You really need to sit the play and the supposed mirror-image side by side and spot for yrself why they're nothing at all the same. It's not all that hard to do...
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
30. I think there could be analogies - but this isn't really one.
As regards the 'Seven Muslim Children' analogy - there could easily be such analogies, but the one provided doesn't really work, as it portrays Muslims as simply wishing to be 'top-dog', and does not portray any suffering that could lead to hate and violence, except Palestinian suffering at the hands of fellow-Arabs (which certainly happens and is often ignored, but is hardly ALL there is to the story). A closer analogy to this play would be one that, for example, showed a mediaeval Muslim child whose father is killed by Crusaders; a 1940s child in Imperial India whose family have been exploited by the British Empire for generations and then, at independence, embroiled in the carnage of externally imposed Partition; a modern Iraqi child whose sibling was killed as 'collateral damage'; a child in Gaza who lost relatives to Israeli bombs - and then as examples of the resulting corruption, relatives of an Iraqi or Palestinian suicide bomber giving his life for Islam and nationalism, while dehumanizing the enemies that he will kill; an Iranian girl whose parents support a regime that will seriously suppress her freedom because the West is seen as the enemy; etc. Seen *not* as 'what Islam is all about' but 'the consequences of living at war and growing up in fear of hate'. I am quite sure that such a play would be regarded as Islamophobic by some people, but I don't think it would be in fact - while the example used in this thread as an analogy undoubtedly is.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. LB - please tell me what you think of David Hirsch's analysis
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. and here's Howard Jacobson again
"But the play owes her (Jacqueline Rose) a debt all right, particular in its unquestioning espousal of her theory that the Holocaust traumatised the Jews into visiting back upon the Palestinians what the Nazis had visited on them – a theory of dazzling psychological simplicity that turns Zionism (and never mind that Zionism long predates the Holocaust) into a nervous breakdown, and all subsequent events into the playing out of the Jews’ psychic instability. By this reasoning, neither the Palestinians nor the Arab countries who have helped or hindered them are relevant. Jacqueline Rose spirits them away from the scene of the crime. They are redundant to the working of her theory, of no significance (whatever they have done), since the narrative of the Middle East is nothing but the narrative of the Jewish mind disintegrating."
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I like Hirsch; but I don't totally agree with him here
I think that explaining Israeli hawkishness PURELY in such terms, or doing it just with Israel and no other country, would be unfair and biased.

However, to some degree one could say that war and the history of war lead to an atmosphere of anger and fear, and these corrupt, and the longer they last, the more they corrupt. Everywhere.

My Muslim analogy (previous post) really is one that could be made! And has been, from time to time.

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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
37. Here is the text, in the thread, of "Seven Jewish Children" by Caryl Churchill
I publish it to show that it is not hateful and dishonest in the same way that "Seven Muslim Children" is(for one thing, as has been repeatedly proved, no Arab or Palestinian leader EVER talked of "driving the Jews into the see"):

Seven Jewish Children - a Play for Gaza

1

Tell her it’s a game

Tell her it’s serious

But dont frighten her

Dont tell her they’ll kill her

Tell her it’s important to be quiet

Tell her she’ll have cake if she’s good

Tell her to curl up as if she’s in bed

But not to sing.

Tell her not to come out

Tell her not to come out even if she hears shouting

Dont frighten her

Tell her not to come out even if she hears nothing for a long time

Tell her we’ll come and find her

Tell her we’ll be here all the time.

Tell her something about the men

Tell her they’re bad in the game

Tell her it’s a story

Tell her they’ll go away

Tell her she can make them go away if she keeps still

By magic

But not to sing.

2

Tell her this is a photograph of her grandmother, her uncles and me

Tell her her uncles died

Dont tell her they were killed

Tell her they were killed

Dont frighten her.

Tell her her grandmother was clever

Dont tell her what they did

Tell her she was brave

Tell her she taught me how to make cakes

Dont tell her what they did

Tell her something

Tell her more when she’s older.

Tell her there were people who hated jews

Dont tell her

Tell her it’s over now

Tell her there are still people who hate jews

Tell her there are people who love jews

Dont tell her to think jews or not jews

Tell her more when she’s older

Tell her how many when she’s older

Tell her it was before she was born and she’s not in danger

Dont tell her there’s any question of danger.

Tell her we love her

Tell her dead or alive her family all love her

Tell her her grandmother would be proud of her.

3

Dont tell her we’re going forever

Tell her she can write to her friends, tell her her friends can maybe come and visit

Tell her it’s sunny there

Tell her we’re going home

Tell her it’s the land God gave us

Dont tell her religion

Tell her her great great great great lots of greats grandad lived there

Dont tell her he was driven out

Tell her, of course tell her, tell her everyone was driven out and the country is waiting

for us to come home

Dont tell her she doesnt belong here

Tell her of course she likes it here but she’ll like it there even more.

Tell her it’s an adventure

Tell her no one will tease her

Tell her she’ll have new friends

Tell her she can take her toys

Dont tell her she can take all her toys

Tell her she’s a special girl

Tell her about Jerusalem.

4

Dont tell her who they are

Tell her something

Tell her they’re bedouin, they travel about

Tell her about camels in the desert and dates

Tell her they live in tents

Tell her this wasnt their home

Dont tell her home, not home, tell her they’re going away

Dont tell her they dont like her

Tell her to be careful.

Dont tell her who used to live in this house

No but dont tell her her great great grandfather used to live in this house

No but dont tell her Arabs used to sleep in her bedroom.

Tell her not to be rude to them

Tell her not to be frightened

Dont tell her she cant play with the children

Dont tell her she can have them in the house.

Tell her they have plenty of friends and family

Tell her for miles and miles all round they have lands of their own

Tell her again this is our promised land.

Dont tell her they said it was a land without people

Dont tell her I wouldnt have come if I’d known.

Tell her maybe we can share.

Dont tell her that.

5

Tell her we won

Tell her her brother’s a hero

Tell her how big their armies are

Tell her we turned them back

Tell her we’re fighters

Tell her we’ve got new land.

6

Dont tell her

Dont tell her the trouble about the swimming pool

Tell her it’s our water, we have the right

Tell her it’s not the water for their fields

Dont tell her anything about water.

Dont tell her about the bulldozer

Dont tell her not to look at the bulldozer

Dont tell her it was knocking the house down

Tell her it’s a building site

Dont tell her anything about bulldozers.

Dont tell her about the queues at the checkpoint

Tell her we’ll be there in no time

Dont tell her anything she doesnt ask

Dont tell her the boy was shot

Dont tell her anything.

Tell her we’re making new farms in the desert

Dont tell her about the olive trees

Tell her we’re building new towns in the wilderness.

Dont tell her they throw stones

Tell her they’re not much good against tanks

Dont tell her that.

Dont tell her they set off bombs in cafes

Tell her, tell her they set off bombs in cafes

Tell her to be careful

Dont frighten her.

Tell her we need the wall to keep us safe

Tell her they want to drive us into the sea

Tell her they dont

Tell her they want to drive us into the sea.

Tell her we kill far more of them

Dont tell her that

Tell her that

Tell her we’re stronger

Tell her we’re entitled

Tell her they dont understand anything except violence

Tell her we want peace

Tell her we’re going swimming.

7

Tell her she cant watch the news

Tell her she can watch cartoons

Tell her she can stay up late and watch Friends.

Tell her they’re attacking with rockets

Dont frighten her

Tell her only a few of us have been killed

Tell her the army has come to our defence

Dont tell her her cousin refused to serve in the army.

Dont tell her how many of them have been killed

Tell her the Hamas fighters have been killed

Tell her they’re terrorists

Tell her they’re filth

Dont

Dont tell her about the family of dead girls

Tell her you cant believe what you see on television

Tell her we killed the babies by mistake

Dont tell her anything about the army

Tell her, tell her about the army, tell her to be proud of the army. Tell her about the family of dead girls, tell her their names why not, tell her the whole world knows why shouldnt she know? tell her there’s dead babies, did she see babies? tell her she’s got nothing to be ashamed of. Tell her they did it to themselves. Tell her they want their children killed to make people sorry for them, tell her I’m not sorry for them, tell her not to be sorry for them, tell her we’re the ones to be sorry for, tell her they cant talk suffering to us. Tell her we’re the iron fist now, tell her it’s the fog of war, tell her we wont stop killing them till we’re safe, tell her I laughed when I saw the dead policemen, tell her they’re animals living in rubble now, tell her I wouldnt care if we wiped them out, the world would hate us is the only thing, tell her I dont care if the world hates us, tell her we’re better haters, tell her we’re chosen people, tell her I look at one of their children covered in blood and what do I feel? tell her all I feel is happy it’s not her.

Dont tell her that.

Tell her we love her.

Dont frighten her.



-Nothing at all like the vicious anti-Palestinian hate piece. "Seven Jewish Children" DOES acknowledge the reality of historic Jewish suffering and the misery that Europeans visited upon Jews. "Seven Muslim Children" doesn't acknowledge the pain of the Palestinian people at all, and simply reduces their story to the myth that "they just hate 'the Jews'".

And the line "tell her all I feel is happy it's not her", before anybody says anything about that, is simply a parental statement of relief that his or her daughter wasn't among the victims. That's all it meant.

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grassfed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. thanks nt
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-29-09 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
40. sounds like the ending of "Mario und der Zauberer" to me n/t
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