Noa writes open letter to Gazans

[shira]

Internationally renowned Israeli singer Noa has written an open letter to Palestinians in Gaza and everywhere. The letter was published on the Israel-based iPeace website, an international social network which has more than 14,000 members from 180 countries.

Dear Palestinian brothers,

It is with a heavy heart I write to you today. Gaza is burning. The border with Israel is under fire. Children on both sides of the fence are terrified, traumatized for life, wounded in body and soul. Life!! Life is lost. Blood flows! Pain and tears and anguish abound.

How familiar it all is, my brothers? How well we know these images, this fear clutching our throats, hope slipping away from our hearts?

A new year has begun. I am sitting here near my computer in the dark night, in my home by the sea. This sea that is ours, our Mediterranean sea, our culture, we the people of wandering, we the homeless, the homesick, we the fighters ,the builders, the survivors, our dreams like waves and tide, pulled by the moon and stars to eternity.

<snip>
MUCH MORE......MUST READ:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3651784,00.html

[shira]

1. letter cont'd

Since that fateful day in 1994 when Rabin was murdered a few feet from me, since that awful moment, I have dedicated much of my public life to singing and speaking for peace.



I have seen the peace process rise and fall and rise like the breast of a woman breathing in the night. I have seen opportunities missed, so many missed, so many chances, so much ignorance and stubbornness and bullheadedness, so much beauty trampled under the heavy boot of pride.



I have sung and I have spoken, I have argued and I have embraced, I have been moved to tears so many times, I have made the most unlikely friends….friends I would give my right arm for, friends I would run across the border under fire to protect.



And today, today I say this; we have one joint enemy, one awful joint enemy and we must all work together to eradicate it! That enemy is fanaticism my friends. That enemy is extremism in all its ugly reincarnations and manifestations.


That enemy is all men who put “god” above life, who claim "god” as their sword and shield, who claim “god” is on THEIR side. Jews, Muslims, Christians, all share this black streak. All have fallen to this destructive, horrible fanaticism at some point in their histories and the results have been devastating.


I have often spoken out against fanaticism in my country, for I find it repulsive and unbearable. In government, in settlements, in synagogues, I am passionately against it. I have risked my career and my wellbeing for this belief.



Now I see the ugly head of fanaticism, I see it large and horrid, I see its black eyes and spine-chilling smile, I see blood on its hands and I know one of its many names :Hamas.



You know this too, my brothers. You know this ugly monster. You know it is raping your women and raping the minds of your children. You know it is educating to hatred and death.



You know it is chauvinistic and violent, greedy and selfish, it feeds on your blood and screams out Allah’s name on vain, it hides like a thief, uses the innocent as human shields, uses your mosques as arsenals, lies and cheats, uses YOU, tortures you, holds you hostage!!



I know this is true my brothers!! I know YOU know the truth!! And I know you cannot say it for fear of life so I will say it for you!! I fear nothing!!



I am privileged to live in a democracy where women are not objects but presidents, where a singer can say and do as she pleases! I know you do not have this privilege (yet…but you will, inshallah, you will…)



I know you are SICK of being held hostage by this demon, this ugly beast, not in Gaza, not in Iran or Iraq or Afghanistan, not anywhere!!! You are a people destined to flourish in peace! Your majestic history is overflowing with creativity, literature science and music, endless contributions to humanity, not crippling, torturing fanaticism, yelling Jihad and Shahid!



I see you sometimes, out in the streets, demonstrating with the monsters, yelling ‘death to the Jews, death to Israel!! But I don’t believe you! I know where your heart is! It is just where mine is, with my children, with the earth, with the heavens, with music, with HOPE!! You want nothing of this but you have no choice! I see through your veil of fear my brothers, through your burka! I embrace your hopes for they are mine!



My country has made many many mistakes over the years, I have watched it miss so many opportunities, and as a citizen of this country I am the first to admit it and criticize its foolery. I demonstrate, I vote, I speak out, I sing loud and clear.



But, now, today, I know that deep in your hearts YOU WISH for the demise of this beast called Hamas who has terrorized and murdered you, who has turned Gaza into a trash heap of poverty, disease and misery. Who in the name of "allah” has sacrificed you on the bloody alter of pride and greed.



My brothers, I cry for you. I cry for us too, yes, I cry for my fellow countrymen suffering the bombs in the south and north and everywhere, I cry for the kidnapped soldiers and the murdered ones, for their bereft families, for the innocence lost forever, but I cry especially painfully for you for I know your suffering, I feel you, I feel you!!



I can only wish for you that Israel will do the job we all know needs to be done, and finally RID YOU of this cancer, this virus, this monster called fanaticism, today, called Hamas. And that these killers will find what little compassion may still exist in their hearts and STOP using you and your children as human shields for their cowardice and crimes.





And then… then, maybe, Inshallah, we will again have an opportunity... we will again pick up our broken bodies and souls and walk slowly towards each other, reach out a tired hand, look into eyes filled with tears and with a choked voice say: “Shalom. Salam. Enough. Enough my brother ….



you want some coffee? Here, sit for a while…let's talk….we know the words, we know the songs, we know the road….



Shalom……

Salam……



With a broken heart still yearning to love,

Your friend,

Noa

[cali]

2. sorry, she just sounds like another fanatic to me- not a religious one

but fanatical and overwrought and hypocritical. Israel has made mistakes. That's it? Aren't people like Lieberman monstrous in their hate and fanaticism? And comparing the pain and suffering of Israelis, at this point in time, with Gazans is just bizarrely narcissistic. I found this passage particularly disturbing:

"I can only wish for you that Israel will do the job we all know needs to be done, and finally RID YOU of this cancer, this virus, this monster called fanaticism, today, called Hamas. And that these killers will find what little compassion may still exist in their hearts and STOP using you and your children as human shields for their cowardice and crimes. "

Furthermore, she has a lot of nerve to claim she knows what's in the hearts and minds of Gazans.

[shira]

3. read the article more carefully

1. She has spoken out against extremism in Israel. It's in the article.
2. She has spoken to many Gazans who have told her exactly what she wrote about. That's in the article too.

I admit, I don't understand the reluctance to call Hamas out for its hate, vulgarity, and crimes against humanity - especially in its victimization of moderate Palestinians for whom they certainly do NOT represent.

Seriously, are we to believe moderate Palestinians want Islamic religious extremism in the form of Sharia Law, which was just instituted by Hamas? And that moderate Palestinians are 'FOR' brainmwashing and using (against their will) women and children as 'martyrs'?

Who believes that?

And if no one believes that, then what's wrong with being outraged at Hamas and calling them out for all their wrongs? Why the need to remain silent, or minimize Hamas' intentions and actions?


on edit:
I get it....the need to minimize and ignore Hamas' actions exists because we all need to pretend they are a national liberation movement, and not so much a vulgar, religious extremist terror organization that doesn't represent decent Palestinians?

[Ken Burch]

148. She's just saying "death to the Palestnians"

Noa knows that the IDF would mainly kill innocent people if it fought even MORE brutally.

[LeftishBrit]

4. A moving article,and I agree with a lot of it, but the bit that bothers me is...

'I can only wish for you that Israel will do the job we all know needs to be done, and finally RID YOU of this cancer, this virus, this monster called fanaticism, today, called Hamas.'

Once a country regards their war against another country (well, strictly speaking Gaza isn't another country, which is part of the problem) as really doing that country a favour, bringing them freedom and democracy, etc. - then the situation generally becomes more dangerous than when it's simply justified in terms of self-defence or other self-interest. Saddam was a monster - but when the 'Coalition of the Willing' 'liberated' Iraq from him, they brought far worse.

IMO, Palestine needs to rid *itself* of the 'cancer called Hamas' just as America had to rid itself of the 'cancer called Bush'.

[shira]

5. the difference

is that in the case of America, Saddam was no threat to USA citizens.

Hamas is a threat to Palestinians AND Israelis and are now the MAIN barrier to peace in that region. The author actually talked to many Gazans and understood that they felt they were victims of Hamas. And with Hamas killing anything that may be a threat to them, what are the chances of Palestinians ridding themselves of Hamas - without outside help from an apathetic world?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. Moving? It moved me to the toilet to puke my guts up.

Hey Noa: take your condescending yearning heart and go screw yourself!

[cali]

11. well, here we go. we actually agree on something

I thought is was pukeworthy as well. Sanctimonious, overwrought, hypocritical, condescending.... I could go on.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. You should read what Richard Silverstein wrote. Good commentary.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2009/01/27/noa-calls-for-israel-to-rid-gaza-of-hamas-cancer/

[cali]

13. really, really good piece. thanks.

[shira]

41. pretty bad piece by Silverstein, actually

Here are some of the talkbacks:

------------------------

Apparently leftist chic demands a gentle touch to the hegemonic agenda of Hamas and its ilk while requiring a healthy measure of wallowing in anguished self-flagellating.

And BTW how hypocritical to gasp at how offensive and distasteful for an Israeli liberal to dare criticize Palestinian society when you American liberals are so freely criticizing Israeli society.

=========================

Instead of addressing the substance of Noa’s criticisms of Hamas — you attack her attitude as one of condescension and cultural superiority, lacking in judgment, analysis or intelligence. For good measure, you attack her singing as well. Anything to avoid speaking to the merits of her points.

Hamas is most definitely raping the minds of women; endorsing a social dogma which treats women as chattel, sanctions physical abuse of women, stigmatizes their bodies, and engages in (if you excuse the cultural superiority and condescension) the hideously savage customs of female genital mutilation — cutting off the clitoris and labia minora — and “honor” killings. Hamas is indoctrinating Gazan children with virulent hatred and a glorification of violence and death which makes continued war inevitable.

Indeed, rather than the milquetoast “I wouldn’t personally vote for them” — I am astonished that any person who held civil liberties to be dear would NOT be at the vanguard of those condemning Hamas in the most strident tones.

Your argument that it is not for US to tell Palestinians how to live their lives is ABSURD. You would never think of applying that concept to NON-JEWS to stifle criticism of Israel. You undoubtedly felt morally superior enough to express your outrage at Apartheid in S. Africa. Why should Palestinians be above criticism? Especially when Palestinians themselves are NOT allowed to freely express their opinions, form political parties or oppose the autocratic rule of Hamas. They CAN’T speak on their own behalf, compelling others to do so for them.

Of course your point that we can’t blame just Hamas for the evils of Palestinian society is correct. Fatah shares its burden as well. But you are WRONG when you imply that Hamas does NOT want to see Palestinians impoverished and suffering. A Gaza without “food, water, power, medicine or commerce” is essential to foster support for the extremist, war-mongering, absolutist philosophy of Hamas.

I am sure you are well aware that most Palestinians — given their druthers — would have a “live and let live” attitude towards Israelis. If they had adequate food, water, power, medicine and commerce — most would have no problem with Israel’s existence and probably would come to appreciate the cultural diversity. They would also NOT be Hamas constituents.

Noa had the intellectual clarity to see this. But, apparently, not you. You are the one suffering from a “moral disconnect”, not Noa.

[Ken Burch]

165. As to the poster saying most Palestinians would have a "live and let live" attitude with Israel

Well, yes, of course, but that DOESN'T mean most Palestinians wouldn't want a Palestinian state, let alone that most Palestinians would be ok with the Occupation. That quote makes my point about Palestinians being moral human beings, not your argument that most "know their place" and are happy to live under the bootheel of the IDF.

[shira]

17. more of the same

What's with the reluctance to slam Hamas?

What's ironic is that there was reluctance 5 years ago to slam Fatah, when Arafat was still in charge....and now the table is switched. It's just fine to slam Fatah but not Hamas. Hmmm.

Looks like desperation - keep the pressure on Israel, ignore or minimize the actions of whoever is in charge (Fatah or Hamas). Pretend terror leaders are really national liberation movements that represent decent Palestinians. Pretend that decent, moderate Palestinians have not suffered greatly under their leadership. Pass off all that onto Israel. When Hamas blames Fatah for something, BELIEVE IT because Hamas says so and they'd never lie. Fatah must be collaborating with Israel because WHATEVER is good for Israel MUST be bad for the "resistance". Now since Fatah is against Hamas, they must be WITH Israel and therefore BAD for Hamas Palestinians.

Let's give Hamas every benefit of the doubt, right? Their "cause" is relatively just.

Is that the meme?

[Mosby]

19. That does seem to be the meme

I think her use of incendiary language prevents a lot of people from understanding her main assertion about the negative effects fanaticism has in the IP conflict.

[shira]

20. so let's use that logic

to explain the changed beliefs and actions of former doves like Ehud Barak and Benny Morris. Hamas and extremist Palestinian leadership has made them desperate. So desperate in fact that they cannot help but believe military action is the best option.

If this kind of logic can be used to explain how moderate Palestinians must be desperate to embrace radical Hamas due to Israel's actions, the same can be used in reverse - right?

Let's put the blame where it belongs. On others. Pass the buck.

Israelis shouldn't point fingers and blame their gov't, but they should project blame on the bigger monster - that which forced Israel into making tougher decisions since PA extremists destroyed Oslo and Camp David/Taba, and essentially destroyed the peace camp in Israel.

Two can play that game, right?

And here's the kicker - it's a more compelling and credible argument when used in reverse of the Hamas/PLO narrative.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. for raping their women? Are you nuts?

That piece was self-absorbed HORSESHIT.

Hey Noa: go find other friends. We're just not that into ya, hon!

[LeftishBrit]

14. I like the first three paragraphs. It goes downhill from there,

I think we ARE all threatened by fanaticism - of all sorts. And that's the part I find moving - that we must all join for peace against the fanatics.

However, as I said earlier, she loses me when she starts on a road that leads to the logical implication "We are bombing Gaza for its own good".

[Mosby]

18. IMO she expressed herself well in her last post

snip

…When we in Israel sum up the evidence including the rhetoric, the 8 years of rockets, the Iran and Hezbollah threats we react in proportion to a nightmare, not just to this or that incident. I believe the same thing is true for the subjective feeling of the Palestinians and the whole Muslim world. Therefore it is their responsibility to communicate through dialog their fears to us, Israelis, so that we can take it upon ourselves to melt this iceberg of suspicion just as we want them to reassure us of their peaceful and positive intensions and melt down our fears too.

My opinion is and was always the same: i am against violence in all it forms. I am against fanaticism in all its forms. I am against finger pointing and blaming as there is no end to it and i am totally against a unilateral black and white approach to anything. I think we all have the responsibility to look the truth in the face: we all brought this catastrophe upon ourselves and now it is our responsibility to do what we can to change it! That means…exchanging negative, violent rhetoric…with a rhetoric of peace, acceptance, dialogue and joint recognition (like the Geneva initiative which i totally support). This is our only hope.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. Except on Israel's side, the policy maker is the GOVERNMENT -- not a group of fanatics.

That is so tired and lame I can't take it anymore!

[LeftishBrit]

26. Hamas are also the government!

It's possible - in fact, common everywhere- for policymakers to be both the government AND a bunch of fanatics. One of the tragedies of the world.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. So you believe the current gov't of Israel is a bunch of fanatics?

Israelis supported this action in Gaza by 85%. Are they all fanatics?

This conflict is not about extremism. It's about the center, LB. It is the CENTER of Israel behaving this way -- not the fringe!

[LeftishBrit]

31. I'm tempted just to reply Yes, but that would be oversimplifying

I think that both sides are dealing with the situation in an increasingly violent and destructive way, which just increases similar destructiveness on the other side, and that the usual close-to-50:50 split between hawks and doves among both populations is tilting frighteningly to the hawkish side.

Fear and anger can make fanatics of us all.

I also think that both sides have been manipulated by others in a 'proxy war'. Iran uses Hamas as pawns against Israel and America, and the last American government IMO used the Israelis as pawns against Iran. Obviously, neither of these is the reason for the conflict which has existed for a very long time. But it contributes.

Would you not agree, however, that Hamas have not only been violent and destructive toward Israelis, but toward other Palestinians? That is no excuse for bombing Gaza; but it's a reason for regarding Hamas as fanatical. And,they are the elected government of Gaza, just as much as Kadima is the elected government of Israel.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. I think that proxy war is bullshit.

Sunni Gazans fight no war for Shiite Iran. They may take any financial aid taht's offered, but you're nuts if you think they are fighting for Iranian interests.

Do I think Hamas has been violent and destructive to other Palestinians?

Can you give me an example that doesn't involve collaborators?

[shira]

40. You need examples of Hamas being violent and destructive to other Palestinians? Seriously?

1. Recent implementation of Sharia Law (like crucifixion, chopping off hands, hanging).

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1229868840606

2. Gaza victims describe being used by Hamas as human shields.
3. Hamas using children in combat support roles in Gaza.
4. Hamas hiding forces in nurseries and hospitals.

http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Jan2009.htm#b290109

5. Teaching children hate

http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_oct2008.html
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part11.html

[Vegasaurus]

42. Some people will always be convinced that Hamas are the "good guys"

even as they kill, stone or mistreat their women.

Even as they kidnap, maim or kill Fatah members, or others who don't tow the Hamas line.

Even as they indoctrinate their children to hate.

Even as they steal the aid and food which is for their people.

Or as they continue terrorism and provoking Israel, even though it brings infinitely more misery to their people.

Hamas is the lowest of the low lives.

A government with no care at all for its people.

No one with any compassion or humanity should support such an awful group of violent and destructive 'leaders".

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. Would love to see an example that doesn't involve a collaborator.

[shira]

44. those examples involved child collaborators?

and of course, Hamas is very careful to only use "collaborators" as unwilling human shields, right? Gazan women can't help but love how they're treated under Sharia Law too. I guess Fatah women and children are fair game - they should all get with the Sharia program.

:eyes:

I understand you don't like collaborators. But has it occured to you that ANYONE in Gaza who dissents against Hamas, whether a collaborator or not, is toast?

And you still don't see Hamas victimization of Palestinians?

When Noa, writes of Gazans suffering under Hamas, either she or those Palestinians reporting to her are lying?

[LeftishBrit]

51. How do you define 'collaborators'?

If you mean people who have directly acted as informers, etc. - then certainly many non-collaborators have been killed.

If you mean that it's somehow justifiable to murder Fatah members and other political dissidents because they pursue a policy that you consider 'collaborative', then this is shocking, and I wonder what it reminds me of. Oh that's right, of RW Israelis justifying killing Gazans because 'they are terrorists', or even labelling all with the most tenuous connection to Hamas as themselves 'terrorists'. 'Collaborator' and 'terrorist' have real meanings, but when over-generally applied, they become excuses for de-humanization and violence.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

53. I'm asking you simply to give me an example of Hamas'

violence on other Palestinians that does not involved a collaborator.

If it's so rampant, it should be easy for you to come up with one.

I know (from my own family's experience) that Hamas has misused power. But I'm asking for an example of Hamas' violence toward other Palestinians.

I am simply trying to answer the question you pose.

More than anything, I would like to see the rule of law established and carried out by a unity government that is committed to a new peace process. Frankly, I think that is the very LAST thing the gov't of Israel wishes to see. You know that I firmly doubt that the gov't of Israel has any interest whatsover in reaching a peace accord with the people of Palestine. The evidence is overwhelming that this is simply not the case.

I believe it's hard to judge Hamas as a ruling body given the conditions they have had to rule under. Extreme deprivation, hunger, joblessness, hopelessness. I think in those conditions, that there hasn't been total anarchy and chaos is pretty amazing. Has Hamas abused their power? I think that is surely the case in some instances.

More than anything, I would have liked the world to give Hamas a fait shot at governing so that they could have been judged according to the performance and, if found lacking, voted out.

However, if you're going to point fingers about political violence between factions, that finger must be pointed equally at Fatah, which is every bit as brutal -- if not more so -- in dealing with its enemies.

[pelsar]

54. wow...the excuse list is pretty long for hamas.....

is it a matter of "not bashing the home team"?

hamas is the ruling party, they got there by killing fatah and other opposition forces and they keep their power via fear.....you know it, because you have connections to gaza, i know it because we get a lot more info that then the US press

and we also know there is not going to be another election (or fair one) with hamas in power...so spare the BS for the others.....the question at hand is if they are good for the Palestinians or not

personally, with their introduction of shari law, they've further isolated themselves from the westbank, further made egypt wary of them, and on top of all that, will make their population even more fanatical and miserable than before....

if your for shari law, then i understand why you would be reluctant to criticize them, as it would put you on their side...if your against it, then hamas in power would be considered as in iran, a disaster.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

57. Thus spake the occupation implementer!

Forgive me if I take what you say with a grain of salt.

[shira]

62. so sharia law will not victimize any Palestinians?

also, do you deny that Hamas recruits children to "resist" Israel - and brainwashes them to hate and be intolerant? Is that not child abuse?

[Vegasaurus]

64. Not only is it intolerant

it is murderous!

Sharia law oppresses women it does not stone or kill.

Of course it is child abuse, victimization, brainwashing, and hateful.

That anyone forgives these abuses is beyond me.

[shira]

70. I think it's tolerated as multi-culturalism

of course that's a copout, because tolerating Sharia Law, brainwashing, incitement to genocide, etc.. is pro-Palestinian LEADERSHIP....not pro-Palestinian.

[Vegasaurus]

71. But they don't care about the people at all

that much is clear.

And to put political ambition above the people?

This is "progressive"?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

74. There is but one body that commits regular child abuse against Palestinian kids: the IDF.

Seen it with my own 2 eyes, honey.

Seen kids shot in the back, and seen a lot worse horrors with my own two eyes.

I am sure there is psycholgoical aspect that which we should probably explore in order to understand how you operate. The twisting. The lies. The minimization. The rationalization. I understand that it must make it very hard for you to watch the people of Palestine fight back. It certainly holds up a mirror that must be very, very uncomfortable to gaze into. There is not only the shame of Israel's inhumane behavior, which everyone knows is wrong, but also the shame of watching the victims refuse to give up the fight.

Peddle as much shit as you like. Write whatever nonsense you like. I understand the psychological mode from which you operate, and I feel compassion for you.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

77. ROTFLOL!!! Do you honestly believe kids in Gaza have to be "taught" to hate Israel!?!?

OMG I just spit coffee all over my monitor!

I'd say the nation of Israel is the master instructor in this life lesson!

[shira]

78. is it so hard to focus only on Hamas actions?

We're talking nasty shit here. It looks like you excuse all these digusting and immoral acts because, either Israel is "worse" or Israel "makes them" do it. So this stuff isn't so bad?

1. Recent implementation of Sharia Law (like crucifixion, chopping off hands, hanging).

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2...

2. Gaza victims describe being used by Hamas as human shields.
3. Hamas using children in combat support roles in Gaza.
4. Hamas hiding forces in nurseries and hospitals.

http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Jan2009.htm#b290109

5. Teaching children hate

http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_oct2008.html
http://www.pmw.org.il/tv%20part11.html

[ProgressiveMuslim]

83. See my post below, hon.

[shira]

79. seriously PM

do you think decent Palestinians enjoy all that crap foisted on them by Hamas and other extremist Palestinian leadership?

Or do you think decent Palestinians have no problem with all the above?

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shira]

85. Palestinians cannot speak out against Hamas while in Gaza

what is your excuse for not speaking out for them?

How ironic is this? We constantly hear how Jews and Israelis hate criticism (actually they hate defamation and demonization). But here's a prime example of someone who cannot stand to be a part of criticism WRT horrendous Palestinian leadership.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

86. I think they spoke loud and clear at the ballot box. Too bad Israel and the US

ignored the results of free and fair elections.

[shira]

90. oh right, that election

So what were those percentages? Did Hamas win 90% of the vote against Fatah? Remind me again please?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

91. Free and fair, baby. Free and fair.

[shira]

112. Hamas won 44-41 percent.

Are those 41 percent who voted for Fatah, collaborators? And if so, do you care what Hamas does to them?

[Ken Burch]

173. Nixon won 43-42%

And he did far worse than Hamas. Ask any Chilean. Ask any Vietnamese. Ask any Cambodian.

And you forget that Hamas won that election with Fatah appointees counting the ballots?

It's not like it could ever have worked for the world to refuse to accept that Hamas won that election?
Hamas could never have been militarily removed.

[Ken Burch]

181. Check your pm's in a minute. Thanks

n/t.

[Idealism]

129. Due to US-influenced gerry-mandering by the PA, Hamas won 75% of the seats

:rofl:

It would be hysterical, if it weren't so damn ironic.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

88. dupe delete

[ProgressiveMuslim]

89. I will loudly speak out about Israelis who committed crimes against children in my family:

Since you are ignoring my post below, I will repeat it:

When my BIL was 14 year old, he was picked up by the Shin Bet. When we got him back the next morning his underpants were bloody from the sodomization that he had endured at that their hands.

Shin Bet officers anally raped the sweetest, goofiest young kid I have ever met. They destroyed that kid's life. He has not been the same since. I have personal experience with child abuse as part of this conflict, and it doesn't come at the hands of other Palestinians.

Do me a favor, and shut up. You really have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

93. Shira, why do you ignore my posts noting my 14 year BIL being anally raped by the Shin Bet?

Why ,oh why, dear verbose Shira, who has something to say about everything, are you suddenly silent?

You are so CONCERNED about the children of Paletine? Where is your outrage over the destruction of the life of a kind-hearted, sweet young boy?

Your silence attests to your agenda. Blech.

[shira]

96. I just wrote that such an act is truly evil

But I also think programming and recruiting kids for Jihad, hate and intolerance, and using helpless Palestinians unwillingly as shields is also evil.

Why don't you?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

102. I don't accept your accusations.

Goes back to the textbook nonsense, which was completely debunked as bunch of horseshit.

You talk about fake crap, while I am discussing real acts of evil perpetrated by Israelis against palestinian children.

[shira]

106. fake crap?

PMW quotes from Arab/Palestinian news sources and reports what Hamas/Fatah presents on TV in their own state-sponsored media. And that's fake crap?

[shira]

95. that is truly evil

but it doesn't excuse Hamas' actions towards Israel, or towards Palestinian civilians. It doesn't give anyone a right to tell Israelis to stand down and allow Hamas to brutalize or terrorize Israelis, as they see fit.

Allowing Hamas to be GUARANTEES that Palestinian suffering and misery will be prolonged and that this conflict will not end anytime soon. What on earth makes you think Hamas wants to resolve this conflict peacefully? What is it about Hamas that makes you reluctant to criticize them very harshly for what they do to fellow Palestinians in Gaza?

added on edit:

Also, if a group of Jews felt they had good reason to hate Palestinians who harmed them before - would it be less than evil for this group of Jews to indoctrinate their kids with vile and hateful and intolerant teachings? Would it not be evil for them to incite their young ones to genocide against Palestinians?

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

100. no problem....but i also live in the area...

and am quite aware of what hamas is, their plans and who they represent... mainly a theocratic state (i.e. facism based on religion).

of course its clear from where i sit, that as long as they fight the israelis, so many will see theocratic fascism is the lesser evil, and if hamas gets smarter, stops shooting kassams and concentrates on building their own separate society complete with the shari law that they believe, no one will bother them, or with them anymore. The world will just be happy that its quiet over there.....and sad to say the real victims will be those gazans who dont prefer to live under shari law.....but i know to you that is all secondary...which is a shame because giving hamas a "pass" will only make their lives even more miserable......(though my preference is for the quiet as my first priority, I just dont understand the "pass" given to hamas)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

105. You live in Gaza? Really?

[Ken Burch]

164. pelsar, nothing the IDF is doing is of any help to secular Gazans

And no Palestinian will EVER regard the IDF as her protector or his friend.

[Ken Burch]

149. She's offering coffee to those she knows the IDF will kill

if it "does the job" she really wants it to do.

Noa lost her soul and her humanity years ago. She forgets that it was an ISRAELI fanatic that killed Rabin, not a Palestinian.

[EFerrari]

6. She really should stick to singing. lol

[Fozzledick]

7. "Shut Up and Sing"

http://www.amazon.com/Shut-Up-Sing-Hollywood-Subverting/dp/0895261014

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0811136/

[EFerrari]

8. What about "shut up and take a composition class"?

[Scurrilous]

9. Answering Noa

Filmmaker Udi Aloni, creator of 2006's 'Forgiveness' and Shulamit Aloni's son, answers Noa's open letter to Gazans

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3653183,00.html

<snip>

"Israeli-American director Udi Aloni, creator of the 2006 film Forgiveness (Mechilot, winner of the Woodstock Film Festival Audience Award and Shulamit Aloni's son, replies to the letter written by Israeli singer Noa to Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and worldwide:

Dear Achinoam Nini,

I chose to answer you, and not the entire raging Right, because I believe that the betrayal of the peace camp, at this of all times, exceeds the damage caused by the Right a thousand fold. The ease with which the peace camp gives itself over to the roars of war hinders the creation of a meaningful movement that could a true resistance to occupation.

You roll your eyes, use your loving words in the service of your conquering people and call upon the Palestinians to surrender in a tender voice. You bestow upon Israel the role of liberator. Upon Israel – that for over 60 years, has been occupying and humiliating them. "I know where your heart is! It is just where mine is, with my children, with the earth, with the heavens, with music, with HOPE!!" you write; but Achinoam, we took their land and imprisoned them in the ghetto called Gaza.

We have covered their skies with fighter jets, soaring like the angels from hell and scattering random death. What hope are you talking about? We destroyed any chance for moderation and mutual life the moment we plundered their land while sitting with them at the negotiation table. We may have spoken of peace, but we were robbing them blind. They wanted the land given to them by international law, and we spoke in the name of Jehovah.

Who are the secular people of Gaza supposed to turn to, when we trample on international law, and when the rest of the enlightened world ignores their cry? When enlightenment fails and moderation is seen as a weakness, religious fanaticism gives a sense of empowerment. Maybe, if you think about the mental situation of the people under siege in Masada, you could get a better sense of what’s happening in Gaza.

The seculars in Gaza find it hard to speak against Hamas when their ghetto is being bombarded all day and all night. You would probably say that 'we would not need to shell them if they held their fire,' but they fire because they are fighting for more that the right to live in the prison called Gaza. They are fighting for the right to live as free citizens in an independent country – just as we do.

"I know that deep in your hearts YOU WISH for the demise of this beast called Hamas who has terrorized and murdered you, who has turned Gaza into a trash heap of poverty, disease and misery," you write. But Hamas is not the monster, my dear Achinoam. It is the monster's son."

[LeftishBrit]

15. Very interesting article

Like the article he's replying to, it's a bit flowery and contains some exaggerations. But I think he is closer than she is.

[shira]

16. this is ridiculous

Noa wrote of talking to Gazans who told her how they feared Hamas, and how Hamas made their lives miserable.

It's arrogant to ignore this and maintain that decent Palestinians have no choice but to accept all that is Hamas, Sharia Law, brainwashing and forcing 'martyrdom' on women and children, etc. It's morally reprehensible to IGNORE decent Palestinians who support Fatah over Hamas, for no other reason than not wanting to live under Taliban conditions.

God forbid anyone dare point the finger at Hamas as they do with ANY fanatically religious regime (Taliban, Saudi regime, Iranian mullahcrasy) that makes life miserable for its chattle citizens. As we know, Hamas is sooooo much different than those groups. They're just a poor little national liberation movement forced by Israel to act very badly.

:eyes:

Gee, Israel could use that argument too - and it would be far more compelling. Israel is just not as dovish as they would be due to those extremists in charge of the Palestinian territories. They are the "son" of that monster, not the monster itself.

[whosinpower]

23. Hamas was helped along the way by Israel

I know - it is hard to accept - tht Israel would encourage a radical islamist group within Gaza and the PLO - but it did - and it did it for a reason - to fracture palistinians into seperate groups that would never be able to come to the negotiating table and finish the peace process. Actually, it did more than encourage - it actively funded Hamas for awhile - as long as Hamas was fighting against Arafat - but when it turned its ugly mug to Israel..........

So who is the father, the son or the monster??????

[oberliner]

24. Hamas was founded in 1987

The support from Israel in the 1970s was to Islamic groups that would later become Hamas.

At the time, those groups were building schools and mosques and engaging in other social welfare activities while the PLO was massacring Israeli high school students, hijacking airplanes, and shooting at buses.

The approaches changed significantly in the 1990s for both groups.

[Idealism]

25. During the elections, Israel backed Hamas

Until about April of 2008, the Israeli government actually gave Hamas money each year directly, too. They indeed tried to splinter Palestinians against the secular Fatah, thinking that if they divided them a civil war would ensue and the violence against Israeli's would subside for a time. Well, they were right in the civil war part...

Israel needs to keep their hands out of Palestinian issues, period. Politics is just another sub-category to that statement.

[oberliner]

28. Can you provide some evidence to support these claims?

Specifically of Israel backing Hamas in the elections and the Israeli government giving money directly to them up to April of 2008.

Thanks.

[Idealism]

32. Google can be your friend at times

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=16447

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/12941.htm

[oberliner]

33. An insane fundamentalist Christian (Messianistic) right wing source

Attempting to smear Olmert for being so far left that he supports Hamas.

I'm sure you would find virtually all of the stories on that site to be full of BS.

It's amazing how the far right is wrong/lying about everything except when it comes to revelations like these when they are suddenly considered legitimate sources of accurate information.

[Idealism]

34. On both sites?

I can find you more if you'd like

[oberliner]

36. Google can be your enemy as well as your friend

Numerous source that seem on the surface to be unbiased may have an agenda that is unclear. In any case, I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of what took place.

Here is another reference:

Incredibly, Israel also supplies Hamas with cash. It began transferring truckloads of cash to Gaza after Hamas' violent takeover of the territory in June 2007. The first transfer of more than $51 million (delivered in Israeli shekels) was purportedly to strengthen the influence of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in the Gaza Strip and pay the salaries of 35,000 Palestinian Authority employees then allegedly loyal to him. Among those employees, however, were Ismail Haniya, the Hamas-appointed prime minister in Gaza, and Mahmoud Zahar, Hamas' foreign minister.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/16/gaza-hamas-funding-oped-cx_re_0116ehrenfeld.html

In what way did Israel support Hamas in the election?

[Idealism]

37. There were numerous articles detailing that

They wanted to divide Palestinians, so they supported the religious Hamas over the secular Fatah. They didn't think Hamas would win, though. Whether it made it to the press or not, Israel helped Hamas win elections by giving them money, its pretty obvious to see. They thought it was in their best interests at the time

[LeftishBrit]

35. At times, but not this time!

Do you realize what you're linking to? These are both INSANELY right-wing, unreliable, virulently anti-Palestinian sites. The first is Christian-Zionist; the second represents the Israeli Jewish Religious Right in general, and the settlers in particular.

I am amazed that anyone would endorse these links on DU, let alone a strongly pro-Palestinian member such as yourself.

[Idealism]

38. You have missed the point

The point is, Israel has backed Hamas in the past, which Oberliner doesn't believe.

[LeftishBrit]

27. The argument does work for both sides. Extremism breeds more extremism.

The Occupation and Israeli war on Gaza increase Palestinian support for RW fanaticism and terrorism on their side, and Palestinian terrorism increases Israeli support for the Right and for further war. It is a vicious circle.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. Was chattel misspelled in the hasbara talking points memo?

[shira]

45. An open letter to a citizen in Gaza: I am the soldier who slept in your home

An Open Letter to A citizen Of Gaza: I Am the Soldier Who Slept In Your Home

An Open Letter to A citizen Of Gaza:
I Am the Soldier Who Slept In Your Home:
By: Yishai G


Hello,

While the world watches the ruins in Gaza, you return to your home which
remains standing. However, I am sure that it is clear to you that someone
was in your home while you were away.

I am that someone.

I spent long hours imagining how you would react when you walked into your
home. How you would feel when you understood that IDF soldiers had slept on
your mattresses and used your blankets to keep warm.

I knew that it would make you angry and sad and that you would feel this
violation of the most intimate areas of your life by those defined as your
enemies, with stinging humiliation. I am convinced that you hate me with
unbridled hatred, and you do not have even the tiniest desire to hear what I
have to say. At the same time, it is important for me to say the following
in the hope that there is even the minutest chance that you will hear me.

I spent many days in your home. You and your family's presence was felt in
every corner. I saw your family portraits on the wall, and I thought of my
family. I saw
your wife's perfume bottles on the bureau, and I thought of my wife. I saw
your children's toys and their English language schoolbooks. I saw your
personal computer and how you set up the modem and wireless phone next to
the screen, just as I do.

I wanted you to know that despite the immense disorder you found in your
house that was created during a search for explosives and tunnels (which
were indeed found in other homes), we did our best to treat your possessions
with respect. When I moved the computer table, I disconnected the cables and
lay them down neatly on the floor, as I would do with my own computer. I
even covered the computer from dust with a piece of cloth. I tried to put
back the clothes that fell when we moved the closet although not the same as
you would have done, but at least in such a way that nothing would get lost.

I know that the devastation, the bullet holes in your walls and the
destruction of those homes near you place my descriptions in a ridiculous
light. Still, I need you to understand me, us, and hope that you will
channel your anger and criticism to the right places.

I decided to write you this letter specifically because I stayed in your
home.

I can surmise that you are intelligent and educated and there are those in
your household that are university students. Your children learn English,
and you are connected to the Internet. You are not ignorant; you know what
is going on around you.

Therefore, I am sure you know that Qassam rockets were launched from your
neighborhood into Israeli towns and cities.

How could you see these weekly launches and not think that one day we would
say "enough"?! Did you ever consider that it is perhaps wrong to launch
rockets at innocent civilians trying to lead a normal life, much like you?
How long did you think we would sit back without reacting?

I can hear you saying "it's not me, it's Hamas". My intuition tells me you
are not their most avid supporter. If you look closely at the sad reality in
which your people live, and you do not try to deceive yourself or make
excuses about "occupation", you must certainly reach the conclusion that the
Hamas is your real enemy.

The reality is so simple, even a seven year old can understand: Israel
withdrew from the Gaza strip, removing military bases and its citizens from
Gush Katif. Nonetheless, we continued to provide you with electricity,
water, and goods (and this I know very well as during my reserve duty I
guarded the border crossings more than once, and witnessed hundreds of
trucks full of goods entering a blockade-free Gaza every day).

Despite all this, for reasons that cannot be understood and with a lack of
any rational logic, Hamas launched missiles on Israeli towns. For three
years we clenched our teeth and restrained ourselves. In the end, we could
not take it anymore and entered the Gaza strip, into your neighborhood, in
order to remove those who want to kill us. A reality that is painful but
very easy to explain.

As soon as you agree with me that Hamas is your enemy and because of them,
your people are miserable, you will also understand that the change must
come from within. I am acutely aware of the fact that what I say is easier
to write than to do, but I do not see any other way. You, who are connected
to the world and concerned about your children's education, must lead,
together with your friends, a civil uprising against Hamas.

I swear to you, that if the citizens of Gaza were busy paving roads,
building schools, opening factories and cultural institutions instead of
dwelling in self pity, arms smuggling and nurturing a hatred to your Israeli
neighbors, your homes would not be in ruins right now. If your leaders were
not corrupt and motivated by hatred, your home would not have been harmed.
If someone would have stood up and shouted that there is no point in
launching missiles on innocent civilians, I would not have to stand in your
kitchen as a soldier.

You don't have money, you tell me? You have more than you can imagine.

Even before Hamas took control of Gaza, during the time of Yasser Arafat,
millions if not billions of dollars donated by the world community to the
Palestinians was used for purchasing arms or taken directly to your leaders
bank accounts. Gulf States, the emirates - your brothers, your flesh and
blood, are some of the richest nations in the world. If there was even a
small feeling of solidarity between Arab nations, if these nations had but
the smallest interest in reconstructing the Palestinian people - your
situation would be very different.

You must be familiar with Singapore. The land mass there is not much larger
than the Gaza strip and it is considered to be the second most populated
country in the world. Yet, Singapore is a successful, prospering, and well
managed country. Why not the same for you?

My friend, I would like to call you by name, but I will not do so publicly.
I want you to know that I am 100% at peace with what my country did, what my
army did, and what I did. However, I feel your pain. I am sorry for the
destruction you are finding in your neighborhood at this moment. On a
personal level, I did what I could to minimize the damage to your home as
much as possible.

In my opinion, we have a lot more in common than you might imagine. I am a
civilian, not a soldier, and in my private life I have nothing to do with
the military. However, I have an obligation to leave my home, put on a
uniform, and protect my family every time we are attacked. I have no desire
to be in your home wearing a uniform again and I would be more than happy to
sit with you as a guest on your beautiful balcony, drinking sweet tea
seasoned with the sage growing in your garden.

The only person who could make that dream a reality is you. Take
responsibility for yourself, your family, your people, and start to take
control of your destiny. How? I do not know. Maybe there is something to be
learned from the Jewish people who rose up from the most destructive human
tragedy of the 20th century, and instead of sinking into self-pity, built a
flourishing and prospering country. It is possible, and it is in your hands.
I am ready to be there to provide a shoulder of support and help to you.

But only you can move the wheels of history."

Regards,
Yishai, (Reserve Soldier)

[cali]

46. even more morally repugnant and no link.

please delete this repulsive piece of shit. That you think this says anything good, says tons about you.

[shira]

47. that you think this is repugnant and repulsive says a lot about you

It's how the majority of Israelis for this war actually feel.

THEY are the ones affected by those thousands of rockets that you believe poses no threat. Put your ass on the line out there with your family, come back, and then spew your ridiculous indignation.

It's a helluva lot easier condemning "those" people out there when "they" are the ones taking the hits, isn't it?


on edit:
Can you please be very specific as to WHY you believe this is morally repugnant? Help me here.

[cali]

48. I alread wrote why in a locked thread

about this letter. Here's the abbrieviated version. This soldier has the audacity to write a letter to a man whose home he and his fellow soldiers have just trashed, blaming him for the brutal occupation and massacre in Gaza by Israeli forces. That's just the start. In addition, the soldier takes no responsibility for why the Palestinians are resisting/attacking. Forty years of a brutal occupation. 40 years of being humiliated and treated like shit by occupiers. Years and years of land theft through settlements. And sorry, but although the rockets are horrifying they pose no existential threat to Israel. the Gaza siege and attack certainly does pose an existential threat to Gazans.

Look, I don't excuse Palestinians for their bad acts, but Israel bears a far greater share of the blame. They are the occupying power and they are the ones who have stolen land through settlements making a two state solution a very dim prospect. This soldier takes no responsibility for any of that.

[pelsar]

55. you miss the point of the letter.....

its a personal letter......person to person......its not about audacity its about a touch of being human in the middle of war, the people involved are not robots, not single minded animals with a single purpose in mind. The situations are not chosen by one and all, and once in those situations, there are judgement calls and quite a few different reactions by those involved.

its a shame you cant see the fact the soldier does have a human face and despite the fact that he is involved in a war can see the "other" also as a person. I doubt your prefer Kuntras view of israelis...the one who bashed in the head of the little girl before killing her dad..and regrets none of it.

[cali]

72. sorry, you're asking the recipient of that letter to ignore the context

in which he received it. And no, it's not really a personal letter, as the author made it public and it's to a person he doesn't know. You're completely ignoring those vital facts.

It's propaganda. If it weren't he wouldn't have publicized it.

[pelsar]

99. its not propaganda....

many times IDF soldiers (reservists) have left behind money as they've left homes of Palestinians that were commandeered for various missions....those you dont hear about because infact they are never public and sometimes they include letters. It may seem to you pathetic or hypocritical but to the actual soldiers who are caught between a mission that the state sent them on, and one which they do believe in, and the damage/imposition it causes others caught in between, its sometimes the minimum that can be done.

again, its a matter of a human face on a very unfair/impossible situation, that becomes a reality...and its a reality that may be hard to understand, but it exists.

[cali]

101. he wouldn't have made it public if he wasn't propagandizing.

You know that.

[pelsar]

109. that specific letter is not so much the point....

its a point of discussion of information...clearly by the responses i'm reading its gets a very negative reaction, yet for the soldiers its simply the minimum of the minimum that they can do (usually the reservists)....its up to you to believe whether it happens or not, and if so why would they even do it?

and you can believe me or not, but i will say i've know thats its been done before, and not out of guilt but more as a recognition that even during a battle, a war a time of demonization, the Palestinians are still seen as humans, as people by those who took control of their home.

[shira]

59. then I and millions of Jews worldwide don't get it apparently

1. I don't see the soldier blaming this man. It's Hamas who is to blame, just like Noa wrote in her letter which you also didn't like. So apparently, it wouldn't have really helped if this soldier laid 100% blame on Palestinian extremist leadership.

2. That this soldier wasn't also critical of Israel didn't seem to make a difference WRT Noa's letter. In her letter, she wrote she has been very critical of Israel and extremists. She takes responsibility for that but you still object to her letter. So even if this soldier wrote like Noa, it wouldn't have made a difference.

3. I really don't get this "rockets don't pose an existential threat, so..." business. You recognize they are horrifying, so why can't you try putting yourself in the shoes of people in southern Israel who live with this horrifying threat every day? You know it's not just Jews but also many Arabs living in the region who are also affected? We all have no problem putting ourselves in Palestinian's shoes....so why not also victims who happen to be Israelis, whether Arab or Jew?

Hamas fired 300 rockets Christmas week and outsiders are to tell the million or so residents of southern Israel to just "take it", hope for the best, and condescendingly tell them that they basically have it coming considering the state of Israel's policy? It seems it's fine to say that, but to turn it around on Palestinians - well that's just so unkosher!

4. It seems highly hypocritcal for liberals to have to feel forced to treat Hamas with a gentle touch when, OTOH, liberals should feel free to declare open season on Israel and criticize their society and leadership.

5. It also seems highly hypocritical for liberals outside of Israel to feel free to preach and speak condescendingly about Israel and Israelis, while not being allowed to do so against Palestinians. And it's worse with Israelis! They can be highly critical of their society, but they can't do that WRT Palestinian society - especially when Palestinians have no voice in their society and DEPEND on outsiders to speak up for them against their Hamas oppressors? Okay, fine - if it's repulsive to hear about Israelis criticizing Palestinian society, then let's help them out and do that for them so THEY won't offend. Who else do you see standing up for Palestinians against Hamas? I see no one else doing this.

I'm still puzzled with this mentality that what's good for the goose is not good for the gander. What's with this blatant double-standard? Can you please explain it?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

49. It's the equivalent of saying.

"I used a condom when I raped you."

It's shocking that you actually need to have to spelled out for you!

[Scurrilous]

50. No link shira?

C'mon, this piece o' crap has been disseminated far and wide by the hasbara brigade.

I'm sure you can find a palatable (nonfreeperish) source by now.

[shira]

60. I'll leave it to you, dear. Take your pick.

[LeftishBrit]

52. Does he really think this letter will influence anyone?

The condescension in the letter makes me very uncomfortable. And however sincere Yishai may be, he is also very patronizing.

If he really wants to negotiate and try to move toward peace with his Palestinian counterparts - there are grassroots organizations, of which the biggest is the One Voice Movement. But anyone in a place that's just been bombed is going to resent or ignore any letter of advice from a soldier of the country that did the bombing. However much he may dislike Hamas.

[pelsar]

56. the point of the letter is missed.....

and perhaps my explanation will help: His main point is that, though he is uncomfortable doing what he is doing and he does see the Palestinians as quite human, and hopes he is seen as human by he Palestinians as well- even if they just destroyed his house ( as difficult as that may be....)

He also writes that he quite aware that there are events quite beyond their control that have put him where he is, at the sametime he believes it is part of his duty as an israeli citizen to be where he is, given the kassam fire.

Is he condescending? no more than the americans telling the israelis what to do.....

i think what i found most interesting was the reactions to his letter....because in many ways i could have written it......(though with a bit more sympathy for the Palestinians and their situation....and a bit less onesidedness)

maybe it will help..maybe it wont, but he wrote because it was in fact a direct connection to someone in the conflict on the other side, never a bad thing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

58. Yea... him

and the Germans soldiers in WWII.

The the soliders in My Lai

And at Abu Ghraib...

Some Israelis left notes and others Arab hate graffiti. Guess what Pelsar? At the end of the day, they are all the same.

In fact, I would personally judge the one who knows better and does it anyway far more harshly than the stupid racist idiot.

[shira]

61. what if it were a non-Israeli or non-Jew trying

to really talk to a non Hamasnik who feels victimized by Hamas? If this non-Israeli or non-Jew was also critical of Israel but wsll aware that Hamas is very much to blame (and that they do victimize decent Palestinians) would that be better?

Or is it you don't feel ANY Palestinians need anyone to speak up for them against Hamas?

[LeftishBrit]

65. It would IMO be totally different if it was someone not involved in the war.

Even if it were someone Jewish or Israeli. What comes across as condescending to me is not the anti-Hamas message, or even that it's from an outsider, but that it's from a member of an army that is bombing the country.

[shira]

67. well, they're pretty much all involved with the army in some way

and no one else with credibility seems to be standing up for Palestinians against Hamas - which is very telling BTW, don't you think? I mean, do all these people who seemingly care for Palestinians think that by treating Hamas with kid gloves, this will make life easier on decent Palestinians?

It's so twisted. Don't they know that by NOT speaking out against Hamas they are only prolonging and extending Palestinian suffering and misery?

Do you disagree?

[Vegasaurus]

68. From what I read

these pro-Hamas types (including the leaders, hiding in bunkers or in Syria) are on for the fight of the century, until demographics are on their side.

They don't care about the misery or poverty of the people.

They don't care about non-stop war, no economy, a culture of hate.

It is all worth it, if Israelis can be killed or expelled from the land.

Now THAT would be justice, in the eyes of such people.

[LeftishBrit]

80. I think what bothers me...

is that under such circumstances it's impossible for the message not to come across as 'We are invading/punishing/bombing you for your own good' - just like the Coalition of the Willing in Iraq.

ETA: I do think that Hamas are a nasty far-RW government and that the Palestinians would be far better off without them, just like all countries would be better off without RW governments.

[shira]

81. so decent Palestinians lose again

if the message can't come from Israelis and no one else with credibility is willing to stand up for Palestinians against Hamas, then Hamas is being enabled and being allowed do as they will against any moderate or decent Palestinian who opposes them. Palestinian suffering and misery will only be prolonged and extended.

Allowing this to happen is regressive mentality, not progressive.

And Hamas has to love it. Focus almost entirely on Israel, let them do as they please for as long as they please. Epic moral failure by the international community that enables this.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

84. How do we judge the decency of the IDF war criminals or of the Israeli people?

Those who kill civilians but leave apology notes are decent? Those who kill civilians and leave racist graffiti are indecent?

Are the 85% of Israeli who approved of that carnage "decent?"

[LeftishBrit]

92. The point is, like it or not, Israelis will NOT currently have credibility in Palestine.

I don't think that in the context of all that's going on, that an Israeli writing an well-menaing but ill-considered *letter* is the worst thing, or the millionth worst thing, that's happening to Palestinians. It's not a big deal in that sense. I'd rather receive even the nastiest of letters than be bombed by an enemy or murdered by someone representing my own government!

However: I suppose the question that I'm trying to ask here is: do you actually think that the Israeli war on Gaza is somehow 'standing up' for Palestinians/ Gazans, or likely to do them good in any way? I am not at this moment asking you whether it's justifiable in terms of Israeli self-defence, but whether you actually think it's a pro-Palestinian action. If not, can you see why these letters, at this stage, could be problematic?

I'm all for conflict resolution and for people on both sides getting together and giving their points of view, even if it's bound to involve some mutual discomfort. I just don't think that letters of advice from soldiers in the context of a war are going to have a positive effect. It's as though people from an Arab state known to be hostile to Israel sent letters to individual Israelis urging them, for their own good, not to vote for Netanyahu. Much as I might agree with the message, it will be seen as (and will be) condescending, and will be disregarded at best.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

94. FCOL, LB...are you serious?

Shira does give one hoot about the people of Palestine. This is some sort of semantic head game for her.

[shira]

97. I think there are Palestinians receptive to this and Noa's letter

and who understand Hamas is very dangerous and does not speak for them. Don't you think such Palestinians exist? How twisted is it to believe there are not a lot of Palestinians (or worse, no Palestinians) who feel victimized by Hamas and realize Israel is doing what they have to do in response to Hamas provocation?

There are many quotes from Palestinians who remember life between 1967-1993 and know the difference between Hamas rule and Israel occupation (with all its problems). These are our friends and they cannot speak up for themselves.

In fact, there are millions of Arabs and Muslims worldwide living under Islamist theocratic control and they realize their misery is NOT attributable to Israel. They're not stupid either. Let's not pretend that Palestinians are so much different than Arabs and Muslims throughout the rest of the world living under fanatical Islamist leadership.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

103. By what basis do you think that?

You are coming unhinged. Too much propaganda is making you lose touch with reality!

[shira]

107. here's one article, there are many like it

"The journalist adds: "There are two options today that could take us out of this situation: Someone strong in the Gaza Strip who does not care about a confrontation with the clans, or an Israeli occupation. Many people in the Strip hope that Israel will reoccupy it because these phenomena were not prevalent during the Israeli occupation."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/853107.html

There are also many Israelis who actually talk to Palestinians in Gaza, like Noa, who know this very well.

This article also shows Hamas' victimization of the Palestinian people, which you for some reason deny.

[shira]

108. here's one from an Israeli Arab Palestinians (not a Fatah collaborator)

"The whole world seems to be talking about the future of the Arabs of Jerusalem, but no one has bothered asking us. The international community and the Israeli Left seem to take it for granted that we want to live under Mr. Arafat's control. We don't. Most of us despise Mr. Arafat and the cronies around him, and we want to stay in Israel. At least here I can speak my mind freely without being dumped in prison, as well as having a chance to earn an honest day's wage."

The Daily Telegraph (London), Jan. 28, 2001.

"The hell of Israel is better than the paradise of Arafat. We know Israeli rule stinks, but sometimes we feel like Palestinian rule would be worse."

‘Abd as-Samiya Abu Subayh, quoted in The Washington Post, July 25, 2000

=================

Remember the percentage of Israeli Arabs living in Israel who preferred that their communities on the border REMAIN Israeli territory and NOT become part of the future Palestinian state? It was well over 70%.

[pelsar]

110. you really believe all arabs want to live in "Palestine"

and leave israel?....not according to the polls...Um el-Fahm, just north of Hadera..where 11 arab israelis were killed by the police, had a poll where something like 90% said they want to stay as israelis (there was talk of a land swap)...arabs in Jerusalem-east, have said overwhelming that they prefer israeli rule.....even gazans and westbankers have voiced such opinions...which is not really surprising

i know you dont like those opinions, as it appears you prefer land ownership over civil rights, i get that...

you really dont seem to have much tolerance for arabs who prefer israels imperfect liberal society to the PA/Hamas corrupt tribal oriented one....

[shira]

111. these must all be collaborators according to PM

either PM doesn't have a real grasp of what Palestinian Arabs think (about the hell of Israel being better than PA rule) or she does and she's full of it. Either way, there are plenty of Arab Palestinians suffering under PA rule (especially Hamas) and unless someone is a Hamas shill, why deny that?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

113. Surely not., just as there are plenty of Jews who would not dream of living in Israel.

Nonetheless I wasn't speaking about Israeli Arabs and you know it.

Why are you putting quotations around Palestine Pelsar? Do you know recognize its right to exist?

[shira]

114. here is another Palestinian Arab speaking on behalf of many others

http://www.elaph.com/elaphweb/elaphwriter/2007/5/236709.htm

That's the original. Anyone here can use google translate (from Arabic to English) to see it for themselves.

====================================

Bassem Al-Nabris
Palestinian poet from Khan Younis, Gaza Strip

"If a there was a referendum in the Gaza Strip 'would you like the Israeli occupation to return?' half the population would vote 'yes'... But in practice, I believe that the number of those in favor is at least 70%, if not more - much higher than is assumed by the political analysts and those who follow . For the million and a half people living in this small region, things have gone too far - in practice, not just as a metaphor. with the internal conflicts, but even earlier, in the days of the previous Palestinian administration, which was corrupt and did not give the people even the tiniest hope. The fundamentalist forces which came into power also promised change and reform, but got a siege, with no security and no making a living... If the occupation returns, at least there will be no civil war, and the occupier will have a moral and legal obligation to provide the occupied people with employment and food, which they now lack."

[shira]

115. and yet another article for you, PM

"People in Gaza are hoping that Israel will reenter the Gaza Strip, wipe out both Hamas and Fatah, and then withdraw again... They also say that, since the massacres, they miss the Israelis, since Israel is more merciful than who do not even know why they are fighting and killing one another. It's like organized crime, . Once, we resisted Israel together, but now we call for the return of the Israeli army to Gaza."

Faiz Abbas and Muhammad Awwad:
Al-Sinara (Nazareth), May 18, 2007

[shira]

116. both Fatah and Hamas slammed for ruining Palestinian cause

"Between one murder and another, between one kidnapping and the next... our leaders continue to sit in their seats and to speak of 'resistance,' 'liberation,' 'unity,' and 'return'... They are all liars. The weapons they wish to retain, as the weapons of resistance, are actually weapons of internecine terrorism and murder... You are murdering the cause, people and future... Oh murderers, you have ruined our world, castrated our nationalism, prostituted our resistance... You have turned our lives into hell. hell is preferable... Take your government, your militias, and your gangs and go to hell."

Al-Ayyam (PA), May 17, 2007

[shira]

118. so once again, why is Noa wrong to point out Palestinian victimization by Hamas/Fatah?

who else is speaking out for Palestinians victimized by Hamas and Fatah?

Seems like a LARGE number of Palestinians feel this way.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

117. The upshot is NOT: the occupation is great! Do you think there isn't a single

Palestinian who would prefer a state that is ALLOWED TO FUNCTION AS SUCH?

Do you honestly believe there are human beings who would prefer to live without their full human rights? Truly, how deep does your racism run, Shira?

[shira]

119. what are you talking about?

they're not claiming the occupation is great but that is FAR superior to the current situation.

Many other Palestinians appear to want the IDF to come in, wipe out Fatah and Hamas, and then retreat and leave the Palestinians to make a go of it after the extremist leadership is eliminated. Give the people the chance at peace that they had before Arafat returned to the area 20 years ago and ruined it.

The point being, Palestinians are victimized by Hamas and Fatah, no one outside Israel is speaking up for them including you - and you're bashing Noa - why?

As for full human rights, these statements show Palestinians have FAR LESS human rights under Hamas/Fatah than they do Israel.

And then you have the nerve to point to MY racism, when it is you ignoring the majority voice of Palestinians brutalized under PA leadership and pretending they want that shit over the hell that is Israeli occupation any day? It looks damned obvious that I'm more pro-Palestinian than you are. At least I'm not pro-Palestinian LEADERSHIP, as you appear to be.

[Vegasaurus]

120. It seems that some people put political ideology

(their "righteousness")

above the people.

This surprises me from supposed progressives.

I thought they were all about the little people, and oppression, and human rights.

But what we see here day after day is that none of those things really matter, when we are talking about Hamas or other oppressive militant theocratic brutal dictatorships.

It's all about the ideology.

The justice, whatever that is.

Who cares if the people live in misery, poverty, oppression, as long as their jailors are Arab or Muslim?

I think some of these "progressives" need a reality check.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

121. Nonsense. nt

[shira]

122. lame response

with friends like you, the Palestinians don't need enemies.

Your pretend concern for Palestinians is disgraceful.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

123. My "pretend concern?" Do you even KNOW a Palestinian person?

Let me ask you this. If my concern is fake, what is my real motivating factor? I married a Gazan and lived in Gaza and Ramallah, am raising Arab-American Muslims kids with all that lovely baggage, just so I can "pretend" to care about the people of Palestine as a cover for what... my lifelong anti-semitism?

Because I tend to feel I need a shower after responding to you, I am now done with this conversation. You have pegged me Shira. How foolish was I to think I could slip my true motivation past the steel curtain that is your brain.

[shira]

124. why else would you claim that Palestinians are not victimized by Hamas

It's quite evident from multiple sources that's exactly what is happening. Why would you deny it?

There are also plenty of Palestinian voices who believe the hell that was Israeli occupation is better than Hamas/Fatah rule. Why claim that's untrue?

I see 2 possibilities.

1. You're woefully uninformed about Palestinian opinion.
2. You know better but are full of shit and denying it for ____________ reasons.

Is there another option?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

125. You are a propaganda flinging joke.

Your people just murdered 1400 Palestinians in cold blood. I owe you no answers of any kind.

You are the person who supports war criminals. I'd say you are the one who should do the explaining.

[shira]

126. just asking that you explain yourself, that's all

Why on earth would you deny that Palestinians are and have been for a long time victims of Hamas?

Here's a recent article from yesterday (1/30/2009) that shows more of the same:

Hamas persecuting Fatah members in Gaza
http://www.mywire.com/a/AFP/Hamas-persecuting-Fatah-members-Gaza/8867832?&pbl=251


I also find it hypocritical of you to demand from me an explanation for Israel's actions WRT Palestinians when it appears you have little to no regard for their situation (alleged collaborators, denying Hamas brutality WRT Palestinians).

Can you please explain yourself first? Do you doubt the stories and quotes?

And it's not only people like Noa in the OP....I know and talk to at least 2 dozen Israelis who also know Palestinians living in Gaza. There are people here in the forum from Israel also, who could easily verify these claims.

So explain this "propaganda", please.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

127. Actually it's incumbent upon you to explain how you can support a gov't that murders

1300 in cold blood, not to mention the 5,000 it has maimed.

Utterly shameless.

[shira]

128. what's utterly shameless

is you demanding an explanation for the treatment of people you seemingly don't care about. It is YOU who is apathetic to whoever is conveniently labeled a collaborator by Hamas, and then victimized.

But it goes further than that because I've shown several other sources which prove Hamas victimizes practically ANY Palestinian they want (not just Fatah), including women and children.

And you have the nerve to demand an explanation? When you support Hamas? Have YOU no shame?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

130. You're so right. I married, care for, gave birth to, nursed Palestinians, but care nothing for them

Your propaganda skills are slipping dear Shira!

Time for a refresher course!

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

132. Get this straight: the primary perpetrator of violence and chaos is the gov't of Israel.

That does not mean I support Hamas.

Yet you obviously do support the body that murders civilians, steals land, settles it illegally, creates apartheid laws that discriminates against the people who were actually born on the land, as oopposed to those who come from Brooklyn.

Like I said, I understand the dual shame of supporting a body that carries out such murderous aggression, along with having to acknowledge the fact that people actually can and do resist great oppression. While I find your twisted logic morally abhorent, I understand the great cognitive dissonance you must reconcile. It must be hard to watch. And with that, I am truly done with this conversation.

[shira]

133. so let's stop with the personal attacks, and explain to me again

just what did Noa write about Palestinian suffering at the hands of Hamas extremist that you find objectionable? I don't see YOU or anyone else standing up for these Palestinian victims of Hamas.

Why try throwing Noa under the bus for this?

[Vegasaurus]

134. No one on the anti-Israel side stands up to the Palestinian victims of Hamas

they are so busy hating Israel that they don't even realize, or can't acknowledge, the pain and suffering and misery inflicted upon the people by Hamas.

They want to believe that Israel is responsible for all the misery.

But instead, they cannot recognize the truth.

The wall and checkpoints were in response to suicide bombers.

And the wall has been 100% successful in preventing these murderers from blowing up buses and cafes.

Hamas could have helped Gaza develop an economy, help the people have jobs and a hopeful future.

Instead, Hamas has clamped down on all people who don't agree with them, murdered, kidnapped or maimed them.

It has turned Gaza into a hungry police state, where women are hostages and can be stoned.

It has made terrorism and aid the main forms of economy, instead of giving the citizens real jobs and real hope.

But the haters won't ever admit that.

We know that.

[Ken Burch]

174. You aren't interested in anyone "standing up for the Palestinian victims of Hamas"

You just want justification to keep the Occupation going. Even though you know it's impossible for the Occupation to lead to a non-Hamas leadership(unless that leadership is MORE extreme, of course).

Hamas does NOT justify the Occupation. The Occupation CAUSED Hamas.

[shira]

182. quite pathetic, ken - you're indifferent to Pal'n suffering under Hamas because you feel doing

anything about it - speaking out against it, etc. - standing up for Paln's against people other than Jews - takes too much pressure off Israel.

Which just goes to illustrate Palestinian "human rights" is a means for you demonize Israelis, not to genuinely help Palestinians.

so tell me - what makes you different than Pat Buchanon on Israel/Palestine?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

135. You began the personal attacks. Please feel free to re-read any of my posts.

[pelsar]

98. no its not a matter of "its for your own good"

in the beginning he makes it clear why....that with all those rockets eventually the IDF would react.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

69. This whole concept of "we really don't mean to be murderous jackasses but

they make us... weep weep... aren't we compassionate..."

is the biggest load of BULLSHIT ever peddled!

If he knows better, he should do better. PERIOD.

[shira]

73. your denial of Hamas victimizing Palestinians

is a far bigger load, IMO.

I thought you were all for liberty and freedoms for Palestinians. Shall we pretend Palestinians in Gaza are getting more of that with Hamas in charge?

[Vegasaurus]

75. Liberty and freedom?

Pfft. Only if it involves ridding the land of Israel and Jews forever.

Now THAT is freedom worth fighting (with violent resistance) for, for as long as necessary!

Long live resistance!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

76. Shira, when my BIL was 14 year old, he was picked up by the Shin Bet.

When we got him back the next morning his underpants were bloody from the sodomization that he had endured at that their hands.

Shin Bet officers anally raped the sweetest, goofiest young kid I have ever met. They destroyed that kid's life. He has not been the same since. I have personal experience with child abuse as part of this conflict, and it doesn't come at the hands of other Palestinians.

Do me a favor, and shut up. You really have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

[ShadesOfGrey]

87. I agree. He's lecturing the victim and it's sickening.

If only you Palestinians would let Israel take your land and resources without complaining she wouldn't have to destroy you. Puke!

Guilt is a good thing though. Now that he sees that he's destroying HUMAN lives maybe eventually he'll take the next step and refuse to take part in it.

[shira]

63. so it's not condescending and patronizing when criticism is aimed against Israel?

Especially when that criticism comes from hypocrites whose countries (even Western countries) make Israel look saintly in comparison? Ex: NATO in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, etc., the war in Iraq, France in Algeria, Rwanda, Russia in Chechnya and Georgia, China in Tibet, etc. No sense comparing 2nd and 3rd world countries to Israel as the comparison is even more lopsided.

So really now, who the hell are these other people from other countries far worse than Israel to preach condescendingly to Israel?

In no other situation worldwide is any other country criticized with as much condescension and patronizing as Israel.

Besides, if Israelis and Jews aren't going to speak out FOR Palestinians AGAINST Hamas, then who will? Where are these people? Why aren't they sticking up for Palestinians against their oppressive leadership?

[LeftishBrit]

66. Sometimes it is! Anyway, see my post 65 for my point.

[Ken Burch]

163. Israel's survival is assured and Israelis, compared to the Palestinians, are NOT the injured party

It's the Pals that are the victims. You can't hold the occupied to the same standards as the occupiers.

[shira]

166. Palestinians are also victims of Hamas....but that's okay with you - no sense criticizing Hamas

[Ken Burch]

172. Hamas is NOT more imporant than everything else

There is no point in speaking of Hamas in isolation, as if there was no reason it emerged.

[subsuelo]

136. No time to participate much, but I'll say this

I'd like to see the people on *both* sides replace their extremist 'leaderships'

[LeftishBrit]

138. I certainly agree on that one!

[Ken Burch]

151. That would be much better

But those who support the Occupation have no right to demand if of those they oppress.

[shira]

137. Aljazeeera: Hamas kills Palestinian opponents

http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/02/09/aljazeera-hamas-kills-palestinian-opponents/

youtube video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJCGqQrxCaA&eurl=http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/02/09/aljazeera-hamas-kills-palestinian-opponents/&feature=player_embedded

[Vegasaurus]

139. All sweetness and light with the Hamas thugs

nt

[shira]

140. Musical Show of Unity Upsets Many in Israel

TEL AVIV — Achinoam Nini, a singer and peace activist, has long stirred controversy here. Known abroad by her stage name, Noa, she has recorded with Arab artists, refused to perform in the occupied West Bank, condemned Israeli settlements there and had concerts canceled because of bomb threats from the extreme right.

But lately it is the left that has been angry with Ms. Nini. Chosen by Israel to represent the country at the Eurovision Song Contest — this year being held in Moscow in May with an expected television audience of 100 million — Ms. Nini asked if she could bring along her current artistic collaborator, an Israeli Arab singer, Mira Awad.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/25/world/middleeast/25israel.html?_r=1&ref=world

[bemildred]

141. "No good deed goes unpunished."

-- Clare Boothe Luce

[Ken Burch]

150. Obviously Mira Awad would be against Operation Cast Lead.

n/t.

[shira]

142. why isn't Noa allowed to criticize Hamas when the 'progressive' pro-Palestinian camp isn't doing....

their job protesting Hamas treatment of Palestinians and trying to make life better for Palestinians under that brutal rule?

oh yeah - because Noa is Israeli and no matter what, she has no business criticizing Hamas treatment of Palestinians.

so what excuse do NON-israeli "pro-Palestinians" have for not criticizing Hamas for their treatment of Palestinians?

[Ken Burch]

143. That letter is not an endorsement of Israeli policy towards Gaza.

n/t.

[shira]

144. do you have a problem with that letter?

[Ken Burch]

145. I dislike Hamas

I have a problem with your motivation for posting the letter. You posted it as part of your continuing campaign to shill for the status quo on Israeli security policies. You didn't post it out of any sincere concern with the lives of Palestinians or the people of Gaza.

Noa was not defending Operation Cast Lead.

[shira]

146. my motivation for posting the letter?

Noa may as well be my mouthpiece - check out some of the responses here to her letter.

And she was not defending OCL? Did you read her letter?

[Ken Burch]

147. If the woman actually thinks Israel is fighting to liberate Palestinians from "fanaticism"

Or that the Occupation can result in "fanaticism" being wiped out in Palestine, she is delusional.

History has proven that crushing Palestinian forces in battle never leads to Palestinian moderation AFTER the battle. I don't like Hamas, shira, and I never have. What I like even less is the repetition of the old cycle of one Palestinian leadership being crushed, and then a worse one arising to "avenge the shame". The only thing that could come of crushing Hamas(something you know is impossible anyway) would be its replacement by an even less pleasant alternative. The only way to avoid this is to break the pattern and negotiate, rather than insisting on the useless objective of "victory".

She's crying crocodile tears for those she wishes to see killed by the IDF.

[shira]

152. if it were up to you, Hamas would enslave Palestinians forever and you'd be okay with that

it's hypocritical for you to say someone else cries crocodile tears for others - when it's quite obvious that if it were up to you, Palestinian suffering would be maximized and extended for several generations to come since your plan is to NEVER interfere with Hamas and other horrible leadership like it.

Seriously Ken, what good is Amnesty, HRW, UNHRC, etc... when you think they're just wasting their time on Hamas, Iran, etc?

You don't think it's worthwhile standing up and fighting hard for Persians or Palestinians? You think it's hopeless? You just say you 'feel bad' for them while indulging in your own moral narcissm (Israel bad, others bad, Ken is good) and that's supposed to magically make them feel better about themselves?

How can it not be up to us to tell Palestinians how to live their lives when that's ALL you do when you feel morally superior enough to express outrage at Israelis or Americans? Why are Palestinians above criticism when they are NOT even allowed to freely speak on their own behalf in the OPT and MUST rely on others to speak for them against Hamas or Fatah?

[Ken Burch]

155. If it were up to me, Palestine would become a secular democracy

But that can only happen when the Occupation ends, and you know it. No resistance movement can ever be reformed while the resistance campaign is still active.

I feel entitled to speak up about what Americans do because I am an American. I speak up about what Israel does because my country subsidizes it and that makes me complicit in the suffering caused by the Occupation. The issue is, what right do people who are complicit in a military occupation of another people have to pass judgment on what the people under occupation do in a desperate effort to free themselves? The Israeli government never rewarded Palestinians for moderation or compromise. And the U.S. never called on Israel(until President Obama's heroic remarks of a few weeks back)to stop treating Palestinians as they do. Therefore, for me to make the kind of sanctimonious comments about what an oppressed people are and are not entitled to do that YOU want me to make is inappropriate. I'm complicit in their suffering, shira, as are you-I have NO RIGHT to judge them while their suffering continues. Do you now, finally, understand? Do you know finally see that the end of the suffering must come first?

To put it another way, the world praised Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi. Southern Sheriffs and officials of the British Colonial Office had no right to DEMAND that the Kings and Gandhis appear.

[shira]

157. well gee, if it were up to me we'd all live in Utopia but let's be realistic, Ken

HOW will a secular democracy appear magically in Palestine only after the occupation ends?

=============

If you feel entitled to speak up about Israel since the USA subsidizes it, then why not Hamas and Fatah since the USA also subsidizes them?

=============

You have no right to judge Hamas while Palestinians suffer? I'm to understand that?

=============

Your comment about King and Gandhi misses the mark by miles....because we're supposed to pretend that Hamas and Fatah do not represent a long chain of terror against Israelis that goes back even BEFORE the state was established. We're to pretend these terror organizations, and proxies of S.Arabia and Iran, are not players in a continued occupation.

[Ken Burch]

158. They aren't the occupiers

The Arab population of Palestine was always there. They didn't steal the land from anybody.

[shira]

160. can you answer my questions, Ken?

[Ken Burch]

161. I did.

Palestinians are not historic oppressors of Jews. Palestinians are not the occupiers or the oppressors. They aren't saints, but they don't deserve your insane hatred. They're just an oppressed people trying to free themselves.

[shira]

168. no you didn't...look at #157 where i asked at least 2-3 questions

Now you write that I have an insane hatred of Palestinians.

Ken, if I were like you and had an insane hatred of Palestinians, I would never show concern for their civil rights under Hamas rule. As a hater of Palestinians, what would I care what Hamas does to them? I'd root Hamas on.

And like you, I would call for the IDF to immediately end the W.Bank occupation, watch as Hamas takes over, let them shoot their rockets at Israel, let a war erupt, and then I'd unleash the IDF and let them respond as 'morally' as any NATO nation would (see Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan) - and if the IDF responded like any other NATO nation, the kill numbers would be in the tens of thousands.

That's not what I want, however....but it seems to be what you want (only with the IDF not responding and Israel collapsing once the occupation ends).

[Ken Burch]

169. Your questions are loaded and irrelevant, but I'll answer them anyway

1)There is always more political space in a country free of foreign military occupation than in one that is UNDER occupation. South Africa also shows how people will make better choices when freed from oppression.

2)I've often criticized Fatah. As to Hamas, there's nothing I could say about them or to them that could make any difference. I don't like them, but it's not my country and my country helps oppress Gazans and Palestinians. This means that "denunciations" by me would have to be morally arrogant.

3)I have no right to judge the choices of the Palestinian people. I dislike Hamas but can do nothing about them. And, thanks to Mr. Bush, NO Americans are entitled to speak on what happens in any Arab or Muslim country. His wars took that right away from us. AND DON'T EVER IMPLY THAT I'M AN APOLOGIST FOR HAMAS AGAIN.

Those are my answers, and you'll just have to accept them.

When the Occupation ends, then the discussion can happen. While the Occupation continues, any attacks on Palestinians on my part are slurs against people I've helped oppress. That can't be THAT hard to understand, can it? My making the kind of remarks you're obsessed with having me make(remarks we both know could change nothing, or at least nothing for the good)would be like 19th Century rich people proclaiming themselves to be "the betters" of the immigrant poor and ascribing the misery in their lives that was caused by capitalism to the "personal immorality" of the immigrant poor themselves(as Bill Clinton did when he slandered poor women in the Nineties).

As a citizen of the colonial power in the region, I'm not entitled to judge the colonized.

[shira]

170. well, that helps at least

1- Look around the rest of the ME at other Arab countries....free of occupation, no beacons of civil rights. You're relying on delusional blind faith, and that alone in the absense of any evidence otherwise, that would lead anyone rational to conclude that real democracy would soon break out in Palestine.

2- By not denouncing Hamas, you're doing nothing to stand up for Palestinian human rights. Organizations like HRW and Amnesty might as well close shop and ignore anyone oppressed by their own leadership.

3- Hamas is NOT the choice of Palestinians anymore than Ahmadinejad is the choice of Iranians. Choosing between Hamas and Fatah is not a choice between tyranny and freedom. Hamas was elected and became the majority just like Democrats are a majority in our congress - but that does NOT make them uncontested tyrannical rulers of Gaza. And even if it did, that does NOT give Hamas free reign to shit all over Palestinians who aren't allowed to speak up for themselves! Please stop pretending that by election, Hamas has the right to shit all over Palestinians and that's exactly what they all want and you have no right to speak out on that!

=========

Your position is morally bankrupt and repugnant as you only use human rights language as a means to an end, not as anything Palestinians deserve under their own leadership.

[Ken Burch]

171. Your position is that Arabs are somehow culturally incapable of democracy

Unless someone ELSE gives it to them. And Israel NEVER gave Palestinians democracy, even in the 1967-93. It's not democracy when the mayors your towns elect can be arrested or even killed by the occupying army at any time(in democracy, elected leaders NEVER supposed to be removed by non-democratic means). And it certainly goes without saying that an Israeli defeat of Hamas would not lead to democratization in other Arab countries, OR to Palestinians accepting NOT getting a state. Crushing Hamas(which would have to lead to massive loss of innocent civilian lives, as OCL showed, and would have to be on a much bloodier level than OCL was)could ONLY lead to a new Palestinian leadership whose focus was "avenging the shame". That's why Hamas defeated Fatah in the first place, because Israeli governments repeatedly humiliated Fatah and its leaders when they did what Israel wanted(and then refused to ADMIT that Fatah had done what it wanted). Humiliation always begets revenge. Therefore, the future requires an end to humiliation. Can you not see this yet?

And your attitude towards Palestinians is, whether you realize it or not, colonialist and Euro-centric. You actually seem to be under the delusion that Israel has a "civilizing mission" and that the IDF is bearing the "white man's burden". At least that's the implication of your incredible belief that the Occupation can somehow liberalize the occupied.

Hamas was elected by the Palestinians. The election in which it won was administered by elections officials appointed by Fatah. It's not possible for an opposition party to steal an election from a governing party.

I agree that Hamas doesn't have the right to shit all over Palestinians, but there is no way that THE IDF can liberate Palestinians from Hamas(or Hamas' shit). No leadership that emerged as a result of the IDF crushing Hamas could EVER have any credibility with the rank-and-file Palestinian population. How could it?

Your position is totally out of touch with reality. An occupier can NEVER liberate the Occupied. History has proven this.

[shira]

175. with a civil war, Arabs are capable of democracy - is that what you want?

1. Are you under the delusion that Hamas was elected to RUN Gaza as if they won the presidency, and not just representative seats in the PA? Is that why you give them a free pass? As if they didn't achieve power to run Gaza via the 2007 coup? I guess if you pretend they rule by legitimate means, then that makes it okay for them to shit all over Palestinians.

2. I'm not pro-colonialist at all - I'm just wondering why someone who invokes human rights language when it concerns Pal'ns and Jews is not at all concerned for human rights when Jews are taken out of the Palestinian picture.

3. As for credibility with the rank-and-file Palestinians, what makes you think Hamas has that and will retain that for years? Their support among Palestinians is in the VERY low percentages now - but they're in power and not likely to give it up without a big fight. When are the next elections and will they agree with any of its results? Does that matter to you?

4. Occupiers have liberated the occupied in Germany, Italy, Japan, Panama....

==============

Since you feel that as an American you cannot criticize Hamas, the question becomes "who can"? How about the French? Australians? Irish? Greeks? The UN, EU, Amnesty, HRW? Or would that be white-mans-burden and imposition of colonialist attitudes?

[Ken Burch]

176. I'd say countries that weren't part of the I/P history would have more latitude

Anyway, since we both know that nothing I could say could possibly lead to Hamas being removed from power, why act as if my opinion on that is so crucial?

As to your views being pro-colonialist-they are in the sense that you assume that the Occupying army can act as a civilizing force, bringing "superior" Western values to the great Palestinian unwashed. This is very Euro-centric(it ignores, for example the fact that South Africa and India prove that non-Western, non-European peoples can be as democratic of their own volition as anybody else)and is guaranteed to make any Palestinian or Arab person reading what you right automatically tune out.

If Hamas' popularity has declined, I'm glad to hear that, and the elections(which are coming up soon)will display that. Since Fatah still controls the PA presidency, it would be non-Hamas people counting the ballots.

We BOTH know that the IDF is not regarded as a protector by ANY Palestinian, or as a potential liberator. Why do you still pretend otherwise? The fact that the New York Times found a few collaborators or opportunists doesn't take away at all from the fact that the IDF is universally despised in the Occupied lands and always will be.

Hamas is a bad party. But it is not more important than all other factors in this situation, and denouncing Hamas from afar is not more important than any other things anyone could do.

One thing I do to support non-Hamas Palestinians is to donate to Sabeel, the Palestinian Christian group. If any Palestinians have been treated badly by Hamas, it's the Christian community. And all of THEM want the Occupation ended now too.

You've got to accept that Palestinians are not Nazis, and that even Hamas are not Nazis. It has never been about "getting rid of the Jews". And that my views have never been that Israeli treatment of Palestinians was only unacceptable because Israel pretends to be a "Jewish" state.

[shira]

178. but countries with more latitude are as silent as you are....so are you okay with that?

Look, it's not about just criticizing Hamas but really TRYING to help and save Palestinians who are suffering due to Hamas.

You say you're for Palestinians gaining freedom from occupation, but the best freedom you offer is more Hamas enslavement...and although you say that's kinda "bad", you'll do and say little, and advocate that nothing be done about it.

Crocodile tears.

And that's "peace" and "freedom" in your opinion.

:eyes:

Sorry, but your version of peace and freedom sucks.

=========

As for Sabeel, it's good you recognize the way in which christians are persecuted in the OPT - all the more important that ends sooner than later, or never - right? They turn me off as a Jew with their deicide charges and replacement theology.

[Ken Burch]

179. Well, the things you say about Sabeel could be said about ALL Christian groups, historically

n/t.

[shira]

183. so why support Sabeel when their criticism of Israel is based on christian antisemitic stereotypes?

[Ken Burch]

177. As to your point 4

Occupiers did NOT liberate the occupied in Germany, Italy, Japan and Panama. The military defeat of the repressive regimes ended those regimes and then the people liberated themselves. And the main consequence of the postwar U.S. occupations of Italy, Germany and Japan was that the people of those countries were stopped from doing what they originally wanted to do, which was to elect genuinely democratic left-wing governments that would never again involve their countries in war. The Christian Democratic parties in Germany and Italy existed ONLY because the CIA invented them during those postwar occupations(and that's the main reason the kleptocratic "Liberal Democratic" party of Japan exists as well). They existed solely to keep working people from electing governments that put human need before corporate profits. The U.S. occupation in Panama was also mainly about preventing the workers from getting a decent life.


The occupations of Germany and Italy also prevented the fascist corporate elites of those countries from facing any punishment for their political enabling of with Hitler and Mussolini in the Twenties and Thirties, and protected people like John Foster Dulles, who had been a lawyer for pro-Nazi corporations like IG Farben, from any scrutiny.


So no, the occupations in those countries had NO liberating effects.

And no, it isn't morally appropriate to compare the people of Palestine with the peoples of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The people of Palestine were never willing participants in a program to wipe Jews off the face of the Earth. Nice try sneaking that slur in again, btw.

[shira]

180. delusional again - yeah, the occupations of Germany, Japan, Italy had no liberating effects

that just magically happened.

:eyes:

[Ken Burch]

153. An eloquent rebuttal of Noa's bloodthirsty letter from Uda Aloni, Israeli filmmaker

As published on a notorious Palestinian propaganda site:

:sarcasm: :eyes:

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3653183,00.html

(For those who don't know, Uda Aloni is also the son of the heroic Israeli peace and justice advocate Shulamit Aloni)

Dear Achinoam Nini("Noa's" real name, for those who don't know-kb),



I chose to answer you, and not the entire raging Right, because I believe that the betrayal of the peace camp, at this of all times, exceeds the damage caused by the Right a thousand fold. The ease with which the peace camp gives itself over to the roars of war hinders the creation of a meaningful movement that could a true resistance to occupation.




You roll your eyes, use your loving words in the service of your conquering people and call upon the Palestinians to surrender in a tender voice. You bestow upon Israel the role of liberator. Upon Israel – that for over 60 years, has been occupying and humiliating them. "I know where your heart is! It is just where mine is, with my children, with the earth, with the heavens, with music, with HOPE!!" you write; but Achinoam, we took their land and imprisoned them in the ghetto called Gaza.

We have covered their skies with fighter jets, soaring like the angels from hell and scattering random death. What hope are you talking about? We destroyed any chance for moderation and mutual life the moment we plundered their land while sitting with them at the negotiation table. We may have spoken of peace, but we were robbing them blind. They wanted the land given to them by international law, and we spoke in the name of Jehovah.



Who are the secular people of Gaza supposed to turn to, when we trample on international law, and when the rest of the enlightened world ignores their cry? When enlightenment fails and moderation is seen as a weakness, religious fanaticism gives a sense of empowerment. Maybe, if you think about the mental situation of the people under siege in Masada, you could get a better sense of what’s happening in Gaza.



The seculars in Gaza find it hard to speak against Hamas when their ghetto is being bombarded all day and all night. You would probably say that 'we would not need to shell them if they held their fire,' but they fire because they are fighting for more that the right to live in the prison called Gaza. They are fighting for the right to live as free citizens in an independent country just as we do.



"I know that deep in your hearts YOU WISH for the demise of this beast called Hamas who has terrorized and murdered you, who has turned Gaza into a trash heap of poverty, disease and misery," you write. But Hamas is not the monster, my dear Achinoam. It is the monster's son.



The Israeli occupation is the monster. It and only it is responsible for the poverty and the sickness and the horror. We were so frightened of their secular leadership, which undermined our fantasy of the Land of Israel, that we chose to fund and support Hamas, hoping that by a policy of divide and conquer were could go on with the occupation forever; but when the tables have turned, you choose to blame the effect instead of the cause.



You write, "I can only wish for you that Israel will do the job we all know needs to be done, and finally RID YOU of this cancer, this virus, this monster called fanaticism, today, called Hamas. And that these killers will find what little compassion may still exist in their hearts and STOP using you and your children as human shields for their cowardice and crimes." It is the same as if your Palestinian sister would write: "Let us hope that Hamas does the job for you, and rids you of the Jewish Right."



So maybe, instead of ordering around a people whose every glimmer of hope we have surgically eliminated, you could help your brothers and sisters in Palestine rid themselves of the occupation, oppression and the arrogant colonialism inflicted by your country. Only then can you urge them to fight democratically and return Palestine to the mental state it was in before we pushed it into the corner of the wall that we built.



And if your brethren in Palestine choose Hamas, you have to respect their choice, just as the world's nations respected Israel when it chose the murderous (Ariel) Sharon. Hamas is theirs to fight, just like you fought him. That is what democracy is about. Only then can you and your brethren in both Palestine and Israel share – as equals – the joy of the land, the sky and the music; only then can we fight for equality together, for every man and woman living living in our holy land. Amen.

If Noa speaks for you, shira, I'm proud to say that Uda Aloni speaks for me on this.

[shira]

154. "Hamas is theirs to fight" - that speaks for you, right?

as though they can and will take Hamas out of power themselves. :eyes:

Israel is the cause for Hamas ..... how about Israel also being the cause for the leadership in Egypt, Syria, Iran, and S.Arabia too? You believe that?

========

If you want to say that NO Israelis can speak like that for Palestinians, okay - but where are the NON-Israelis like yourself who speaks up on behalf of Palestinians oppressed by Hamas?

cue the crickets.

You guys are saying and doing NOTHING about that. You can damn sure criticize Israelis and Americans, but when it comes to Palestinians they are above reproach.

Hamas gets a free pass to do as they will, while moral narcissists like yourself (Israel and the USA bad, Ken good) get your rocks off pretending you're doing a great service to oppressed people. The fact is, you believe all these oppressed people you 'care' for can all eat shit and die as slaves of Hamas, Iran, etc.

What an absolute betrayal to liberal standards!

[Ken Burch]

156. It is impossible to get rid of Hamas while the Occupation continues

Why can you not admit and accept this?

Palestinians are the ones entitled to judge Hamas. And I support those within their community who oppose them. And EVERY Palestinian who opposes Hamas also equally opposes the Occupation. That's reality.

The Occupation cannot be the liberation of the Palestinian people.

[shira]

159. wrong....they could have been finished off if OCL continued or marginalized with Arab military

occupation in Gaza.

===============

How do you "support" Palestinians who oppose Hamas, Ken? This should be good.

[Ken Burch]

162. Dear God....that sounds just like

"We'd have taken back China if only Chiang Kai-Shek had been unleashed", or

"We'd have beaten them Vietcong if only we'd nuked Hanoi", or

"If it weren't for them dadblamed Yankee abolitionists, they'd STILL be singin' and dancin' in the cotton fields" or

"And we'd have managed it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids".

=========================================================================================================================

The history of this dispute proves that, even if Hamas had been militarily defeated, the only thing this could have led to would have been an even more harsh Palestinian leadership emerging in its place. That's all "victory" ever leads to in this thing, shira. Why haven't you picked up on that yet?

I support human rights everywhere. I couldn't do them any good by denouncing Hamas and supporting the Occupation. Supporting the Occupation would make me the enemy of the Palestinians forever.

[shira]

167. denouncing Hamas does not equate to supporting the occupation