Hamas: UN Gaza truce resolution 'does not meet our demands'

[oberliner]

Hamas on Friday rebuffed a United Nations Security Council resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire in the Gaza Strip as Israel's offensive against the Islamist organization enters its third week.

An exiled Hamas leader said on Friday the United States appeared to want to give Israel more time to persist with the Gaza offensive.

On Thursday the UN Security Council voted on a resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, but the United States unexpectedly abstained in the vote, saying talks on a truce were still under way through Egyptian mediation.

"By not voting for the resolution and by not vetoing it, the United States is sending a clear signal that it supports the resolution but after a while," deputy political leader Moussa Abu Marzouk told Hezbollah's Al Manar television from Damascus.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054215.html

[The Magistrate]

1. So the 'Hard Men' On Either Side, Sir, are Perfectly Happy To see This Continue....

[tekisui]

26. Exactly, both sides dismissed it.

And, the Cairo meeting appears doomed to failure as well. At some point public opinion in Israel for this endeavor will dry up. Until then, it will be a bloody and static situation.

[bdamomma]

2. the US abstained in the vote.

fuck.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

3. I consider that abstention a victory!

In the Arab world, that move is seen as proof that the clock is ticking on Israel and that they are in deep shit.

[Recursion]

4. I'm surprised

This seems like the sort of resolution that routinely gets drawn up to draw a US veto. We may be calling the rest of the world's bluff here.

[azurnoir]

5. So both sides have rejected the UN resolution

I suppose the next argument will be who rejected it first

[Vegasaurus]

6. Hamas is in no position to make any demands

but of course, they don't care how many of their people die.

Martyrs and all.

[GoesTo11]

7. They certainly do care how many of their people die

if we define "their people" narrowly enough.

They don't care at all how many children die - in fact, they seem to prefer more to fewer since it makes for good PR, how many women or non-combatants die. They don't care very much now many low level combatants die. But they very much feel it when the senior command takes a hit.

[Idealism]

8. You act as if they are killing themselves

Who is killing Palestinians, women, children, and men? Aliens?

[Zywiec]

9. They are killing themselves

Have you ever heard of suicide bombers?

[Idealism]

10. There hasn't been any suicide bombers in Israel in years from Hamas

Try again.

[Zywiec]

11. Why do you think that is?

Their sudden love of life?

:shrug:

[Idealism]

13. The blockade has stopped them

Which is why they turned to Qassam rocket and mortar fire to show their disdain. Any other questions, sir?

[oberliner]

14. Qassam rocket attacks pre-date the blockade

Hamas has been shooting rockets for several years. An Israel child was killed by a Hamas rocket attack in 2004.

[Idealism]

I didn't say they didn't

The rocket fire was a often a nuisance, with very little damage done, until this year. Rocket or mortar fire has accounted for less than 20 deaths from 2001-2008. Not to say those deaths aren't egregious and crimes against humanity, they are, indeed. Nor did I say that Qassam rocket attacks were post-blockade, they were severely increased since the blockade didn't allow suicide bombers out.

[Vegasaurus]

16. But you are ignoring the fact that there were always rockets

and Israelis assumed (wrongly) that when they left Gaza, the rockets would stop.

Instead, they increased by 10x.

Hamas wants death.

That is all.

Death of Israelis, death of Jews, death of their own people, as long as eventually they get back all of Israel.

There are no other goals for Hamas.

[Idealism]

17. The rocket fire before wasn't attributed to Hamas

Fatah's Brigades or Islamic Jihad fired them, according to Israeli intelligence. Hamas was more into the suicide bombings, until they blockaded Gaza in 05.

[The Magistrate]

18. Once Hamas Became Government There, Sir, Hamas Became Responsible For All Of It

[Idealism]

19. The time period Vega was alluding to was prior to Hamas rule in Gaza

But on your point: Can we hold Bush responsible for every crime committed by a hate group in our country, like the KKK killing a woman in Kentucky three months back? I read a few articles saying that after the June 19th cease-fire, Hamas arrested several members of the Fatah-linked Brigades that had launched a few rockets and mortars into Israel. What else should they have done? What more could they have really done, given the instability in the region?

[The Magistrate]

20. The People Who Killed that Woman, Sir, Are Under Arrest

Hamas did indeed arrest Fatah members; those are their internal rivals and enemies. They have not done so with Islamic Jihad members; indeed, there are credible accounts that Hamas and Islamic Jihad have pooled technical resources in the construction of rockets and firing sites over the last year. What would certainly satisfy me, and probably the Israeli populace and eventually its government, would be a good faith effort to arrest people acting without government sanction to attack Israel from Gaza, whoever they are affiliated with: such an effort would not need to be one hundred percent successful, but it would have to be obvious and sincere and in good measure effective. That there has been no such effort while Hamas ruled Gaza is clear.

[Idealism]

21. That wasn't exactly the question

The question was should Bush be held liable for allowing such a thing in the first place, which seems to be the case here. You are saying Hamas should be responsible for any crimes committed from their region. They have arrested members of the Brigade at several points, who were at one time rivals and other times aligned with them during the unity government period after the 2006 elections. They have clashed in the past with Islamic Jihad, too, as recent as 2007 both sides suffered losses from skirmishes, so I am not sure how much favoritism is there.

Another thing to look at is the utter lawlessness of Gaza under the Fatah government. The powerful clans that ran Gaza were allowed to get away with literal murder under the corrupt Fatah leaders. When Hamas got elected, they greatly cracked down on the clans, particularly the Dagmoush family. They arrested several prominent members of the family, as well as members of extremist groups connected to the Dagmoush clan (like the Army of Islam).

Yet one more possibility to look at are the political implications of the rocket attacks during the Egyptian brokered cease-fire. Who stood to gain more, or who stood to lose more rather, if Palestinians launched rockets and mortars into Israel following June 19th? Certainly there are Fatah sympathizers and supporters in the Al-Aqsa Brigades. Maybe they saw chances to weaken Hamas with rocket fire into Israel, as that would definitely exacerbate the situation? I think all these things are possible, and must be taken into consideration.

Hamas arrests Gaza militants for rocket fire: group
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iAw_GA_ohPpI2OM7HqVTyqw8P4_g
Jul 11, 2008

GAZA CITY (AFP) — Hamas has arrested four members of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades for firing rockets at Israel or trying to do so, a member of the militant group ruling the Gaza Strip said on Friday.

Hamas arrests al-Aqsa spokesman
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/06/2008629141838866503.html
Monday, June 30, 2008

Hamas forces in Gaza have arrested Mohammed Abu Irmana, the Al-Aqsa Martyr Brigades spokesman, after the group claimed responsibility for a rocket attack on Israel.

[The Magistrate]

25. Governments, Sir, Are Responsible For Maintaining A Monopoly On Political Violence Where They Rule

It is obviously in their interest to do regarding violence arising internally towards them. When a government fails to do this in regards to violence directed from its territory against a neighboring state, it is responsible for that failure. The neighboring state may be satisfied with the efforts that government which has failed in this responsibility takes to curb the perpetrators (Spain seems satisfied with the efforts of French police against Basque separatists in the border regions), or may it, for reasons of policy or disinclination to press the matter fully, choose to refrain from vindicating itself against the neighbor's failure in duty (India has excellent reasons for not pressing to war with Pakistan), but it is not required to do either of these two things, and is within its rights to take such derelictions as casus belli.

The arrest of a group belonging to political rivals of Hamas does not establish any good faith effort by the Hamas government to curb rocket attacks against Israeli from the Gaza territory it rules. Attacks were carried out by Islamic Jihad and by the Popular Resistance Committees, and both these groups enjoy close ties with Hamas in Gaza, and their rocket teams were not arrested, or even hunted by Hamas police. There is no question that the Hamas government allowed these actions, or that it could have prevented them, or at least arrested their perpetrators, had it chosen to.

[Idealism]

29. Does history of the territory of no importance?

Like I noted, there was a huge legal vacuum in Gaza before the latter part of 2006, early 2007. Crimes just went unpunished. Different groups tried to continue their ways after that, and many were arrested. In one instance, a BBC correspondent was kidnapped by an extremist organization (the Army of Islam). The Hamas police then arrested the Army of Islam's spokesperson that later led to freeing the journalist. Obviously not all crimes get punished, but what would have been an acceptable incarceration rate for Israel, given the problems in Gaza and the history of lawlessness? According to http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/pdf/ipc_e007.pdf">Israeli intelligence reports from July to October (before the ticking tunnel raid) there were 11 rockets and 15 mortars fired from Gaza, with some landing in Gaza. According to Wiki entries (almost all data given by the Israeli government), only one rocket attack was proclaimed as Islamic Jihad's work:

June 24, 2008
Three Qassam rockets fired from Gaza on Tuesday struck the Israeli border town of Sderot and its environs, causing no serious injuries but constituting the first serious breach of a five-day-old truce between Israel and Hamas.<59>
Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack and said it had been a response to an Israeli military raid in the West Bank city of Nablus at dawn on Tuesday, in which a senior Islamic Jihad operative Tareq Abu Ghali, 24 and another Palestinian university student Iyad Khanfar, 21 were killed. An Israeli Army spokesman said that Abu Ghali had been involved in terrorism and that he was "killed in an exchange of fire." The man killed with him was armed, the spokesman said.

It seems to me by not claiming more attacks as from Islamic Jihad or other extremist groups, they may have been afraid of the repercussions from Hamas, after seeing the Al-Aqsa Brigades being jailed more often then not after admitting their hands in attacks.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. When the Hamas fighters position themselves so that if they are killed others are too

[Recursion]

15. Sure it is: they're winning

[LeftishBrit]

12. RW warmongers. They have them on both sides.

[ohio2007]

22. The UN has a $take in any outcome

Gaza Bedfellows; UNRWA And Hamas
Once upon a time, terrorists had to hide from the forces of the free world and filch their living on the sly. That's changing, thanks to long-running efforts by the United Nations, bankrolled most prominently by the U.S.

In the current violence of Gaza, we are seeing the fruition of one of the most bizarre creations of modern diplomacy: a UN-supported welfare enclave for terrorists.Behind this lies a straightforward equation. Gaza, with its 1.5 million people, runs almost entirely on international handouts. The UN ranks it among the top per-capita aid recipients on the planet.

And following the Israeli withdrawal in 2005, the Iranian-backed terrorist group Hamas began consolidating power in Gaza--first via elections in 2006, then via a bloody battle in June 2007, in which Hamas drove out the rival Palestinian group Fatah and seized all power in the enclave. Since then, Hamas has been running Gaza as a territory reduced to basically two industries: aid and terrorism.

Pivotal to this arrangement is one of the UN's oldest and most oddly configured agencies: the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, or UNRWA.

Set up in 1949 with a temporary, three-year mandate to provide aid and jobs for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA has survived for almost 60 years, expanding its scope, budget and influence by extending refugee status to descendants of its beneficiaries.Normal refugee aid tends to focus on finding ways to resettle displaced people and integrate them back into normal, productive lives. UNRWA, by contrast, provides the main framework for ensuring that the official population of Palestinian refugees remains a swelling source of misery and mayhem--both for their neighbors and for the Palestinians themselves.

snip

While not all charity to Gaza flows through UNRWA, it is UNRWA that enjoys pride of place, with its UN stamp of legitimacy and direct, easy access to the UN's world stage.Since late December, when Israel began its campaign to end the thousands of rocket and mortar attacks launched by Hamas from Gaza, UNRWA officials have given a parade of briefings via UN headquarters in New York.

Given the structure and location of UNRWA, such bias comes as no big surprise. Headquartered inside a terrorist enclave, sharing with terrorist authorities such basic interests as keeping the local lights on and the water running, UNRWA officials have plenty of incentives to slam Israel as the culprit--not themselves, or their Hamas cohabiters.

And while blaming Israel, UNRWA officials also have plenty of incentive to present the worst possible picture. The greater the perceived distress, the better the prospects not only for immediate relief, but for future fundraising. UNRWA's interests in Gaza are by now so entwined and, in many ways, so aligned with Hamas' interests that it is often hard to tell them apart.

snip
This past September, Democratic Rep. Steve Rothman, with a bipartisan group of five co-sponsors, submitted a concurrent resolution noting that "UNRWA has employed staffers affiliated with terrorism."

The resolution cited specific examples of UNRWA ambulance and schools having been used to abet terrorism and mentioned a number of figures, including Awad al-Qiq, headmaster of an UNRWA school in Gaza, "who also led Islamic Jihad's engineering unit that built bombs and Qassam rockets."

However humane the intent of UNRWA officials, they have become de facto enablers of Hamas' terrorist fiefdom in Gaza.

In pushing for an ever-bigger dole and in using the UN stage as a megaphone to help elicit sympathy, drum up funds, denounce Israel and drape in UN baby blue the interests and demands of the Iranian-backed terrorists of Hamas, they do a terrible disservice not only to the cause of world peace, but to the prospects of the Palestinians themselves for forsaking terror and building better lives.


http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2009/01/07/gaza-hamas-unrwa-oped-cx_cr_0108rosett.html

And people say Israel doesn't want peace.

[Vegasaurus]

23. Aid and terrorism

That sums up the Palestinian economy under Hamas in two words.

[Idealism]

24. That is a disgusting piece

The U.N. may be powerless but I don't think they are corrupt.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Idealism]

28. Were the UN aid workers corrupt, too?

Are the people dying trying to help innocent civilians worthy of your disgust, as well?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. Some clearly go native

[EFerrari]

32. "Go native" is an inherently bigoted phrase that one would not expect

from an educator. Fyi.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

34. Nonsense. Its used all the time in psych and anthropology

[bemildred]

33. That's their job, to care about the people in Gaza. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Its quite human to do just that. The question is have any of them gone beyond what is reasonable

and the answer of the 8000 employees (though some are arguing much less these days), it is probable that some have. It would be impossible in some cases not to.

[bemildred]

36. Who defines "reasonable"?

Who is to judge? Who is a better judge than they are? You? Me? Speculation is not fact.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. UN actually has pretty good definitions of neutrality and of requried conduct

[bemildred]

39. Well then, we ought to listen to what the UN says about it. nt

[azurnoir]

38. Funny you seem to have forgotten this part

Spanish taxpayers paid for most of the sprawling sculpture, which has been compared to the Sistine Chapel, but around $633,000 came from Spain's budget for overseas development aid.

maybe we were not supposed to notice is that why the huge font size, hint for you next time use a colorful font it distracts us leftists so much more ohhhhh the colors LOL