What would be a "proportionate" Israeli response?

[RiverStone]

No one is suggesting Israel should not have a right to defend itself from Hamas rockets and yet people from all walks have been critical of the "disproportionate" nature of the response in Gaza.

There is no justification from either side to intentionally target civilian areas. There is no acceptable litmus test for atrocities.

Short of a truce, what do you think would be an appropriate Israeli military response that would defend it's soil but not obliterate areas in Gaza where untold numbers of civilians could die?

Added to any answer there obviously has to be a mechanism to allow humanitarian aid and medical attention into Gaza.

[Zywiec]

1. Do whatever is necessary to stop the Hamas rockets n/t

[subsuelo]

12. Interesting, that's the Hamas strategy

Whatever is necessary to stop the continued colonization of native Palestinian land.

(I don't agree with Hamas, just pointing out your strategy is the same way of thinking.)

[ROakes1019]

2. no military response needed

What is needed is for Israel to lift the blockade of Gaza. What is happening now is a bunch of caged people are being targeted because of the Hamas resistance movement. The people of Gaza are starving, have no access to work, little water, little medical supplies, no freedom of movement at all. Why is Israel, a people who suffered similar circumstances during the Holocaust, oppressing these people, who were run off their land and forced into refugee camps in a small strip of land with no access to land or sea.

[RiverStone]

10. Yes to lifting the blockade, but what about those rockets?

I wish we had full access of the Western press in Gaza - hard to fathom how Israel could let folks suffer (from lack of aid and medical attention) in plain sight. I'm not suggesting it's BS, it's just I don't think many in America realize the depth of economic (and physical) deprivation which is being imposed upon the people in Gaza.

That being said, I still think that Israel can't just ignore the Hamas rockets either. Do you believe that if Israel were to lift the blockade, that alone would get Hamas to stop sending them?

[sinkingfeeling]

3. How about tearing down some walls and 'settlements' and then making a serious effort to formulate

a two-state solution.

[Vegasaurus]

4. That's a great idea.

Only you need to read some history.

There was no wall before the first intifada.

Terrorism brought that on and has saved hundreds of Israelis lives.

There were no settlements before the arabs started another war in 1967, which Israel won.

And every time Israel has offered concessions and land, or even reduced restrictions, there has been a rapid increase in violence and terrorism.

[sinkingfeeling]

11. Don't need to read about.... been around and have witnessed this mess for decades.

[bunnies]

5. This 'defend itself' meme always makes me chuckle.

Lets say I move into your house and lock you and your family in a closet - I starve you, keep you from medicine, and I'll be damned if I'll let you leave. Day after day you watch your family suffer, starve, die - so you constantly kick and the door and sometimes you even take a swing at me.

How dare you?!

Now tell me - what would be the appropriate way for me to defend myself against you? I'm sick of your kicking and screaming. Time to teach you a lesson.

[cali]

7. I wish people would stop posting silly shallow analogies

and that goes for both sides of the debate.

[bunnies]

8. Oh goody. Another content- free "Im so smart" post.

Are you going for some sort of record?

[Demit]

6. Stop calling it "self-defense", for starters.

Israel has a mighty military that dwarfs beyond all comprehension anything in Gaza. The formerly oppressed have become the bully. It has long passed what could be called self-defense. What they are doing is shameful.

[RiverStone]

9. Still seeking an answer...

No materr what it is called, what response to Hamas rockets what be justified? Do you believe Israel could resolve the rocket situation without any military intervention at all?

And yes, not allowing humanitarian aid which provides for basic necessities is an atrocity in itself.

[Karenina]

14. A TRUTH and Reconciliation process.

There is a REASON that Hamas fires rockets. What is it?

[EFerrari]

16. We need somehow to boycott, divest and defund.

I don't see any other way to make our criminals and their criminals stop.

[Karenina]

18. My biggest fear is conflating Jews with Israeli and American Zionists.

[EFerrari]

19. Remember this from Desmond Tutu?

October 17, 2002
Of Occupation and Apartheid
Do I Divest?

by DESMOND TUTU

The end of apartheid stands as one of the crowning accomplishments of the past century, but we would not have succeeded without the help of international pressure-- in particular the divestment movement of the 1980s. Over the past six months, a similar movement has taken shape, this time aiming at an end to the Israeli occupation.

Divestment from apartheid South Africa was fought by ordinary people at the grassroots. Faith-based leaders informed their followers, union members pressured their companies' stockholders and consumers questioned their store owners. Students played an especially important role by compelling universities to change their portfolios. Eventually, institutions pulled the financial plug, and the South African government thought twice about its policies.

Similar moral and financial pressures on Israel are being mustered one person at a time. Students on more than forty campuses in the U.S. are demanding a review of university investments in Israeli companies as well as in firms doing major business in Israel. From Berkeley to Ann Arbor, city councils have debated municipal divestment measures.

These tactics are not the only parallels to the struggle against apartheid. Yesterday's South African township dwellers can tell you about today's life in the Occupied Territories. To travel only blocks in his own homeland, a grandfather waits on the whim of a teenage soldier. More than an emergency is needed to get to a hospital; less than a crime earns a trip to jail. The lucky ones have a permit to leave their squalor to work in Israel's cities, but their luck runs out when security closes all checkpoints, paralyzing an entire people. The indignities, dependence and anger are all too familiar.

http://www.counterpunch.org/tutu1017.html

[Karenina]

21. Another snip from your link:

Almost instinctively, the Jewish people have always been on the side of the voiceless. In their history, there is painful memory of massive roundups, house demolitions and collective punishment. In their scripture, there is acute empathy for the disfranchised. The occupation represents a dangerous and selective amnesia of the persecution from which these traditions were born.

Not everyone has forgotten, including some within the military. The growing Israeli refusenik movement evokes the small anti-conscription drive that helped turn the tide in apartheid South Africa. Several hundred decorated Israeli officers have refused to perform military service in the Occupied Territories. Those not already in prison have taken their message on the road to U.S. synagogues and campuses, rightly arguing that Israel needs security but that it will never have it as an occupying power.

More than thirty-five new settlements have been constructed in the past year. Each one is a step away from the safety deserved by the Israelis, and two steps away from the justice owed to the Palestinians.

If apartheid ended, so can this occupation, but the moral force and international pressure will have to be just as determined. The current divestment effort is the first, though certainly not the only, necessary move in that direction.

[EFerrari]

23. I do understand the worry. It's right, imho, to be vigilant

against anti-semitism.

Those in charge of Israeli government policy are acting as criminally as BushCo has. I have no problem at all in promoting a boycott of their policies until they are changed. The real well being of the Israeli people is not being furthered by the policies now in place. More rockets today, not fewer, are coming down on southern Israel.

There will be hateful people who would exploit a divestment effort. We can't let them set the agenda, imho, and we simply have to be prepared to deal with them clearly.

[Vegasaurus]

20. Hamas fires rockets because it considers all of Israel "occupied"

remember, it is not just the "67 line, but ALL of "greater Palestine".

Hamas shoots rockets into Israel because they are trying to terrorize the Israelis, and make them feel insecure in their country.

Hamas has no interest in peace, and has expressed an ongoing goal of annihilating Israel.

Next?

[Karenina]

22. You've been well-educated.

I imagine on any other topic I should find you quite delightful!

[Vegasaurus]

24. IT isn't education

I am not well educated.

I just listen to what Hamas says and does, as opposed to what people choose to believe.

I take Hamas at their word, and always wonder why other people give them more credit.

[Karenina]

25. Okay! I take it back.

[Taitertots]

26. Destruction of Israel

The reason Hamas fires rockets is because it is a radical Islamic organization determined to destroy Israel.

[Karenina]

31. WHY?

[wellst0nev0ter]

17. Well, Not Bombing Schools And Mosques Would Be Appropriate Enough

And then pointing out the scurrilous "secondary explosions" and then saying "I didn't do it!" :eyes:

[oberliner]

30. Might be nice if Hamas stopped launching rockets at schools

Wouldn't you agree?

[wellst0nev0ter]

38. Would You Feel Better If Hamas Weapons Has Targeting Technology?

Or they had warplanes or laser-guided missles?

[oberliner]

40. Is it that hard to agree that Hamas should not launch rockets at schools?

One would think that would be a no brainer.

The UN, Amnesty Int'l, and Human Rights Watch have all strongly condemned those rocket attacks.

[wellst0nev0ter]

41. So What, Israel Should Adopt The Tactics Of Terrorists Now?

Oh, wait. I don't think even Hamas would target a school used and clearly marked by UN to protect refugees escaping Israeli massacre.

[oberliner]

42. Hamas already bombed Hebrew University

Killing several Americans in the process.

[wellst0nev0ter]

43. A UN Protected Site For Refugees?

Anyways, because terrorists bomb universities means Israelis should bomb schools? Is what I'm hearing right?

[oberliner]

44. All I'm asking is if you condemn Hamas for attacking schools

Either you do or you don't.

I'd be happy to answer any questions you'd like to ask me.

For instance, no I don't think Israelis should bomb schools.

[wellst0nev0ter]

45. And Of Course, Hamas Shouldn't Be Attacking Schools

I'm glad we can agree on both points.

[oberliner]

46. I think there is more agreement than disagreement

At least I hope so.

We all want the conflict to end and for there to be peace.

[GoesTo11]

33. Would it be ok if they used suicide bombers to do it?

Then Hamas could try putting up walls and people could criticize them!

[wellst0nev0ter]

39. Then That Will Mean The Palestinians Have Occupied

and ghettoized the Israelis in a sad repeat of history to the point that they have to rely on such deperate methods. And I do remind you that in 1999 and 2000, when there was a tangible chance at peace and the PA was allowed to do it's job, there were no suicide bombings and no Great Wall of Israel.

[PerfectSage]

13. Your framing the question the wrong way.

The question you should be asking is What grand strategy should Israel be following to win on the most important level of warfare, ie the moral level?

A smart grand strategy will support Isreal's national goals. Pump-up Israel's resolve, drain away Hamas's resolve, and attract the uncommitted. Also, end conflict on favorable terms. And finally, ensure that conflict and peace terms do not provide seeds for unfavorable future conflict.

For the last 30 years Israel's leaders have been shooting themselves in the foot on the grand strategic level.

[RiverStone]

27. Sadly, I see nothing moral in anybody's actions

If Palestine becomes it's own state, would that quell Hamas?

I'm afraid we are looking at a few more generations before folks are beyond the morality of waging war --- hell, it could be 500 years.

[PerfectSage]

28. Now that is a good question

Since social systems are chaotic systems it's impossible to know the answer.

Chaos requires leaders who can excerise creativity. Look at the problem, develop a solution, implement it and see if it works. If it doesn't solve the problem, try something else.

Therefore, one who is skilled in warfare principles subdues the enemy without doing battle, takes the enemy's walled city without attacking, and overthrows the enemy quickly, without protracted warfare.

His aim must be to take All-Under-Heaven intact. Sun Tzu

[EFerrari]

15. Intercepting the rockets would be a military response although

a response is not necessarily a solution, right?

Obviously, military response is the problem here, not the solution. And as long as our right wing hawks and their Democratic parrots keep blocking a diplomatic solution, neither Israel nor Gaza will be safe.

[anonymous171]

29. 300 rockets and one death.

[methinks2]

32. since most of the hamas rockets are woosie

and don't make it to the other side . . . I think a cute small fireworks show would be appropriate. ala 4th of July style. Lots of pretty colors in the sky, but not actually landing anywhere. That would be proportionate

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. No military "response" is proportionate.

Israel is occupying Palestinian land, and not vice versa. That means that "proportionate" is not an applicable concept.

Israel should start by ending the occupation and withdrawing to the Green Line. If the Palestinians continue to attack Israel at that point, Israeli military action might be a proportionate response.

[Vegasaurus]

35. It did end the occupation from Gaza

and was met with five fold the number of rockets.

The blockades were a result of the increased terrorism, which the Israeli left thought would disappear once they were disengaged from Gaza, and the right assured them would only increase the terrorism.

The view on the right won out, and the whole country has moved further right as a result.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. If I stand on both your feet, taking my weight off one of them won't end the problem.

Ending parts of the occupation while continuing to expand others won't do any good.

Israel has two options to stop the Palestinians attacking it: render them unable to attack it, or make them stop wanting to attack it.

Nothing short of wholesale ethnic cleansing bordering on genocide will achieve the former.

Nothing except a total end to the occupation and withdrawal to the Green Line will achieve the latter.

Israel can have peace, or it can have occupation. If it wants both at once, it will have to do some very evil things indeed (which, I suspect, it will).

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. 46 dead today, as of 6:53. 17 children. 7 women.

How fucking worthless is Palestinian blood?

Shame on us all.

[JVS]

47. Proportionate would be to send in some assassins each time there is a rocket attack.

Bombing the shit out of the area is too much, and my way would thin the ranks of the organizations engaging in the rocketry rather than going after the general population.