The Gaza Bombshell

[Agony]

I don't know what to say anymore...

<snip>
"Iran Contra 2.0"

"After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, David Rose reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."

<snip>


more here----> http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

[PDJane]

1. I do know what to say.

Unfortunately, no-one wants to hear it and I will be labelled anti-American yet again. Oh, yes, and anti-semitic.

This whole bunch are despicable.

[Agony]

2. ...

What happened to empathy?

[PDJane]

3. empathy for whom?

Empathy for the Palestinians? I have a lot of empathy for them. Empathy for Israel? Not so much. Some, but not so much.

As for the US...well. And you know, I've been accused of being anti-American and anti-semitic so often, it is getting to be true, at least somewhat.

What the US does around the world is greedy and selfish and despicable and fatal to so many. Time for a change.

[Agony]

4. critical mass

I keep hoping for a critical mass of empathy to show itself, but the march of the stupid people keeps getting in the way.

Believe me. I haven't heard you express anything that I can disagree with.


In spite of my open fit of frustrated cynical laziness I have a lot to say. What I have to say seems rather lost around here most of the time tho.

Education, education, education. You know, if americans knew...

[TheMadMonk]

6. One problem I've noticed with empathy....

...is that it falls down when stepping into the shoes of arseholes like those who have gotten their hands on the reins.

The best you can ever hope for with such individuals is to give them a stark choice between playing nice or not playing at all. They have to be forced against their will to do the right thing. Letting them play, whilst merely admonishing them to be good only lets them go home at the end of the day with your marbles in their pockets.

[azurnoir]

5. Surprise not n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. I implore any serious observer/critic/student of the I/P conflict to read this piece.

And for the Israel-only crowd who reguarly trot out the "Hamas waged a coup in Gaza" nonsense, you should read it as well.

[azurnoir]

8. We - they already knew or strongly suspected

however it has been all "it's one thing to know and another to show", maybe I am jaded but the Israel only crowd will sweep it under the rug as fast as possible.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. I have talked about a US-and Israel-backed coup on this forum for months

and been met with silence or derision.

Here is the proof:

"Legal or not, arms shipments soon began to take place. In late December 2006, four Egyptian trucks passed through an Israeli-controlled crossing into Gaza, where their contents were handed over to Fatah. These included 2,000 Egyptian-made automatic rifles, 20,000 ammunition clips, and two million bullets. News of the shipment leaked, and Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, an Israeli Cabinet member, said on Israeli radio that the guns and ammunition would give Abbas “the ability to cope with those organizations which are trying to ruin everything”—namely, Hamas.

Avi Dichter points out that all weapons shipments had to be approved by Israel, which was understandably hesitant to allow state-of-the-art arms into Gaza. “One thing’s for sure, we weren’t talking about heavy weapons,” says a State Department official. “It was small arms, light machine guns, ammunition.”

[azurnoir]

14. I tried too and got the same result

so now those same arms have been turned against Israel apparently or that is what is being claimed, the only surprise is that Condi is showing her face at all.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. Here is one piece, that pieces it all together and is corroborated.

Hopefully, at least here, we won't have to deal with that bullshit any more.

[Phx_Dem]

17. The election was rigged

Khalil Shikaki, a leading Palestinian polling expert and director of the
Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, argued that:

despite all the hand-wringing over whether Palestinians have suddenly taken a more extremist turn, a closer look at the numbers reveals a more complex
picture. For one thing, Hamas received only 45 percent of the popular vote. The nature of the electoral system, which magnified the existing fragmentation of Hamas's opposition, is what gave the Islamist movement the 58 percent of the seats it won. The divided Fatah and four other secular parties won a majority of the popular vote – 55 percent – but only 39 percent of the seats. (A handful of independent candidates won the rest.)

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp2006/rp06-017.pdf

[breakaleg]

18. Didn't Jimmy Carter say it wasn't? I think he is worthy of listening to.

[Phx_Dem]

20. The report does not say there was cheating

but the election procedures were designed in such a way that the Fatah parties were split up while hamas wasn't. Hamas did not even win the popular vote.

[bemildred]

23. So Fatah rigged the election against itself? nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

25. The point was that Fatah itself was (and is) split internally, not that the election was rigged.

[Douglas Carpenter]

10. naive me. I thought everyone knew this.

It was certainly reported in a number of articles long before the so-called "Hamas takeover" that the U.S. with the help of Jordan, Egypt and Israel was arming Fatah long before the so-called coup happened.

I'm am certainly not an apologist for Hamas. And I feel uncomfortable saying things that might give the impression of a favorable view toward them.

But it is simply undeniable that Hamas did win the election fair and square. And it is simply undeniable that Fatah was being egged on toward a violent confrontation with them. Describing the "Hamas takeover" as a coup is simply intellectually dishonest - whatever I may personally feel about the likes of Hamas.

------------

note the dates of these articles - long before the "Hamas takeover":

Here is an interesting article from the Economist of Nov. 2, 2006 - link:

http://www.economist.com/PrinterFriendly.cfm?story_id=8109652

"With politics deadlocked, an unofficial alliance between Fatah, Israel and the United States has begun to consider a military way to force Hamas out. In the name of “security reform”, America is financing a training camp outside Jericho for the Palestinians' Force 17, a recruitment pool for the presidential guard. Israel has sanctioned the transfer of heavier weapons and allowed Fatah's Tanzim militia to rearm. The Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, awaits the arrival of 2,000 troops from the Badr Brigade, a Jordan-based division of the Palestinian Liberation Army which operates largely under Hashemite command. These troops, say the president's advisers, would provide the backbone of a force of tens of thousands to take on Hamas, whose own forces are said to number 5,700 in Gaza, and 1,500 in the West Bank."

this article from the San Francisco Chronicle:

"U.S. training Fatah in anti-terror tactics
Underlying motive is to counter strength of Hamas, analysts say
Matthew Kalman, Chronicle Foreign Service

Thursday, December 14, 2006

"(12-14) 04:00 PST Jericho, West Bank -- U.S. officials training Palestinian security forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas are emphasizing urban anti-terrorist techniques as part of a systematic effort to bolster Abbas and his Fatah loyalists to counter the political success of Hamas, according to Palestinian analysts and officers receiving the training. "

link:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/12/14/MNGIPMV3N61.DTL&type=politics

.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. And we Americans wonder why so many in this world hate our guts.

Will this nation never learn?

[pelsar]

12. its far murkier than...

mere elections. I wont even pretend to know who was backstabbing who...and who switched sides and who was planning what. At the sametime it cannot be denied that Hamas took Gaza by force as the sole power to be...

and i suspect in the world of intl law..what they did was "illegal" for all that is worth.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. Read the piece. Nothing murky about it. The US and Israel backed Abbas in a coup attempt.

Pure and simple.

So please, Pelsar, don't ever again say to me that Hamas initiated that violence. Can you at least just admit that?

[bemildred]

16. As I remember he dismissed the paliament, appointed a new PM or whatever it is,

and decided to rule by decree. Sort of like Musharraf in Pakistan, or lots of other guys. On the other hand, he was honestly elected at one time, after Arafat died. It was only after the results of his policies became clear that he lost popularity. Now he is virtually irrelevant, and there is no way to fix it.

[pelsar]

38. hamas and fatah....

have been at each other since hamas showed up.....who started what and when?.....do you really think we know?.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

45. Yes I do think we know.

That murky "from time immemorial" crap is nothing more than obfuscation on your part.

[pelsar]

49. seriously?

hamas has never hidden their desire to have their version of islam "rule the land"....

since when do political parties create "armed wings? i dont recall that likud, or shas, or the democrates have one.

(and please dont tell me its for "defense".....the creation of an armed militia within a society is the rejection of that societies present political system)

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

24. Did you read the article or just assume?

It was not Hamas kidnapping and shooting people in the knee's it was Fatah, as to behavior during the coup I suppose it would have been OK if Fatah were the ones who threw people off buildings, but no that was not OK, however it was not a coup, Hamas was saving the Palestinian government from a coup, and all of this explains part of why Israel has wanted no reconciliation between the 2 factions

People on this board who knew or suspected what really happened have nothing to "apologize" for it, is the American government and it's supporters who need to apologize, to the Palestinian people for the pain and suffering that has been inflicted because of this despicable plan.

we'll hold ours for that one:sarcasm:

[Vegasaurus]

30. You deny Hamas's actions?

Go do a google search.

[azurnoir]

31. No I did not deny anything n/t

[pelsar]

39. is this another one?

It was not Hamas kidnapping and shooting people in the knee's it was Fatah

your actually going to stand by this...and claim that hamas did not kidnap, kill etc fatah members?

[azurnoir]

41. Please Pelsar read the article

It does not nor did I state that Hamas did not do kidnap or kill people, the example in the article however was the reverse, it was Fatah who kidnapped a Hamas member and his father from a grave site and then shot them in the legs and knee's

Quite frankly your comprehension must be better than what you represent in your posts and you know people do tend to read entire threads, so why keep twisting things, it really does not reflect well on the pro Israeli side or are you really Pro-Palestinian Undercover?

[Vegasaurus]

42. The question is whether you are being deliberately obtuse or what

There was nonstop news about Hamas throwing people from buildings, kidnapping and killing them and shooting them in the knees.

Sometimes I think it is your comprehension that is sorely lacking. Really. Do a one second search and you will find plenty of evidence that Hamas was plenty violent towards their Palestinian brethren during their June coup.

[azurnoir]

43. But I did not deny that

you and Pelsar keep saying I did, I said it may have been more OK, some if it had been Fatah doing this but it was not OK.

Did you read the article or just assume?It was not Hamas kidnapping and shooting people in the knee's it was Fatah, as to behavior during the coup I suppose it would have been OK if Fatah were the ones who threw people off buildings, but no that was not OK,

that is my quote I did have to type i the title line, but the rest is cut and paste, I was referring to the article

[azurnoir]

15. It was known

but there is this river in Egypt.......

I don't know if this "coming out" will change anything now, 6 or 9 months ago maybe but perhaps we'll see.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. As with so much of Israel's "narrative"...

many lies are churned out and consumed, and by the time the truth emerges, it doesn't matter. The damage is done.

Sweet, huh?

[azurnoir]

26. I dunno if sweet is the term iI would use n/t

[Lithos]

29. Hamas did perform a "coup"

Hamas takeover was too well planned for it to have been a reaction to a coup attempt. Given the rancour and saber rattling between Hamas and Fatah prior to anything Dahlan had started, it strikes me that Hamas just beat Fatah to the punch.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. Did you read the article?

What you've written just makes no sense.

I guess you're gonna see it how you want to see it regardless.

[Lithos]

34. Actually yes I did

Mostly old news which was repackaged.

The part that got my attention:

Wurmser accuses the Bush administration of “engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship with victory.” He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. “It looks to me that what happened wasn’t so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen,” Wurmser says.

First, I disagree with Wurmser here as I do think Hamas had every intention of taking control. It was a matter of when and by what method.

Second, I think it a bit off-based for him to rail against Abbas as a corrupt dictatorship without noting that Hamas is a theocratic dictatorship which has done quite an effective job of stiffling dissent. Newspapers have been shut down, 300K crowds have been shot into, etc. Hamas was never built on the principles of democracy, democracy was only a tool to advance their cause and something they will discard when it suits them.

Third, pre-empted a "coup"? Nice doublespeak. Given their well-planned military response, it is more like they took advantage of the opportunity. This is a lot like saying that the crowds broke spontaneously into Egypt after only a few days of an increase by Israel of the embargo, yet trying to reconcile the notion it took MONTHS of surreptitious engineering work to undercut the barriers on the Egyptian side.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. If Hamas wanted power all to itself: why in the world did they pursue a unity gov't???

I think you're blinded on this one, Lithos.

[Lithos]

37. Because other Arab countries pressured them to

The establishment of the Executive Force also showed they were not planning on respecting any outcome.

L-

[ProgressiveMuslim]

44. Can you source that? Because I recall their asking for a unity gov't about

5 minutes after they won the election. They have consistently called for unity, and still do so.

As for the Executive Force, do you dispute the timeline in the article? Seems to me the Executive Force was formed to counter Abbas many private militias.

[pelsar]

47. i think your ignoring repolitiks....

hamas is politically very wise.....they've got gaza, they've got Qalqilya in the westbank.....they're slowly doing what a smart political movement does...take over one city at a time, and they're patient.

Your making excuses for Hamas, they are/were a fanatic religious group formed to counter the PA govt. In doing so they also formed an illegal militia as you wrote to counter the legal govts armed forces....they had "no business" making an armed wing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. I am ignoring nothing. I am simply stating after after 18 months of being

pilloried for "a coup" in Gaza, this article collects evidence that has been widely known but not widely accepted in the West.

Your (plural) hatred for fundamentalism blinds you to the facts of what happened.

Hamas won PLC elections in an internationally monitored free and fair election.

They immediately reached out to Fatah to work togeter. They did this contuously, and not as a ploy, or becaust other Arab nations forced them to, but because they didn't have the wherewithal to govern and they knew it.

Fatah preferred to let Hamas fail on its own, even if it meant taking the nation down with them.

Rather than work together, Fatah planned, with US pressure and Israel's backing to take Hamas down violently rather than through the electoral process.

Can we at least agree on those basic facts, even if you may choose to interpret them differently, (ie., Hamas didn't ever have the right to govern, etc.)

[bemildred]

51. That was pretty much my take.

1.) It was obvious at the time that elections were a bad idea from a Fatah POV, and that the Bushites made them do it for (essentially) non-Palestinian PR reasons.

2.) Hamas' need and desire ever since has been to legitimize their win and demand the attention, power, and respect that they feel that they now deserve, and legitimately have earned. They are not likely to help restore order unless they get that, and the past record does not suggest that they will be stomped out by force, although one can obviously make a big mess trying.

3.) Through all of this wends a thread of arrogance and the inaccurate assumption that people like the Bushites and Olmert have to be paid attention to and that people like Abbas and Hamas can be dismissed and ignored.

4.) Abbas has to take the blame for going along with this dishonest dog-and-pony show, whereas Dahlan just looks like your basic smiling sociopath. In Abbas' favor, I have to say I think he is sincere in his belief that compromise is the way to go. Little good has that done him though, and it leaves him open to the accusation of being a stooge and quisling.

Edit: this all reminds me of Mafouz' depiction of the English in Egypt in the 20's a good deal, the obliviousness to the idea that any one else's views need to be taken into account, the notion that you can always use the mailed fist to make people obey.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

53. I'm not so benevolent to Abbas.

My husband told me there was recently a big brouhaha in the arabic press about his son, Mazen, becoming a primary holder in a newly created telecom deal that will make him a millionaire.

I think he may have begun the process in the right frame of mind, but very, very quickly he's been compromised.

And BTW, I'm a huge Mahfouz fan!

[bemildred]

54. I know you are not.

It's not that I think that much of Abbas, but I'm not comfortable demonizing him either. It's a slippery slope with lots of people willing to help keep it lubricated.

Mahfouz was very good, much better than I expected. I can't say more without going into it here, but a superb piece of work. I can see what the Nobel was about.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

55. What do you think of the "peace talks" being back on?

I can't even begin to imagine...

[bemildred]

56. Abbas has always wanted to negotiate, always wanted to talk.

I mean, that is who he is politically speaking. And that is all there is to the "peace talks" being back on. Despite recent events, he's still willing. They were never off except in the sense that he would not talk until the violence stops, or however it was put. If I read it right, that is still what he is saying now. I think he said there had to be a cease-fire or something like that, and then rescinded that statement, but I don't see that he is willing to go forward in the present circumstances either. But that could change. I mean, he has nowhere to go.

[Vegasaurus]

57. How could he go forward?

He isn't in control of the violent government that controls half of his people.

First step, before peace talks with Israel, is peace talks with Hamas. If Hamas and Fatah can come to some kind of agreement (which includes acknowledging Israel and foregoing violence), then they will be ready for peace talks with Israel.

Right now. Not worth the time it takes or effort,because Hamas is damned and determined to undermine any possible peace effort.

[bemildred]

58. Why are you asking me?

It's not me that wants "peace talks" with Olmert and Abbas, it's Condi. I'm the one who says Abbas is irrelevant and discredited at this point.

[Vegasaurus]

59. Sorry! Just throwing the question out in the wind for anyone to answer. nt

[bemildred]

60. OK! I don't have an answer. nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

61. Here's a newsflash: Everyone wants peace talks between Fatah and Hamas except Israel and Abu Mazen.

I don't think he wants to share power, and apparently, hasn't comes to terms with his party's loss in the PLC election.

You might not know it from your news sources, but Hamas continues to call for rapprochment.

I guess the question is: who wants genuine peace?

Can anyone doubt, for one second, that in order to realize that that people have to be adequately and truly represented?

There is not one person who 2 brain cells who believes that process can happen for real without Hamas. Not one Israeli, not one Arab, and not one American.

[Igel]

27. Was this before or after the Executive Force was created?

Because it wasn't a secret that the Force was created by Hamas, some 3k strong. Nor was it a secret that the US was helping Fatah.

The problem is that this is being billed as Fatah's action being the cause, and I'm having too many eye problems today to read the entire article to see if VF's being disengenuous or not.

[bemildred]

28. Yeah, I dunno why any of it's a surprise.

This was all "analyzed" ad nauseum at the time. I thought the "problem" is that Hamas wound up getting all the stuff we gave to Fatah in Gaza, i.e. that the policy failed ignominously.

[bemildred]

33. Boy, there are some great quotations in this:

Few inside the U.S. administration had predicted the result, and there was no contingency plan to deal with it. “I’ve asked why nobody saw it coming,” Condoleezza Rice told reporters. “I don’t know anyone who wasn’t caught off guard by Hamas’s strong showing.”

[pelsar]

46. i thought that was rather absurd...

no one saw "hamas" taking over?....it was only just their plan....i dont think militias armed themselves, made their own mini govts, just to "play around"......

i bet that if there was a small poll taken of all the militias in the world they would all say they're plan is to "take over"......and nobody saw it coming?......

[bemildred]

52. Yeah. I don't know if you know, but it echoes her response to the 9/11 attacks, too.

It was a "non-traditional" hijacking, and nobody could have predicted this. I myself, while descending into one city and another, have considered the idea that a jet airliner would make a heck of a weapon, and I'm a very peaceful guy.

[bemildred]

35. Another one:

Dahlan says he did not order al-Jasser’s torture: “The only order I gave was to defend ourselves. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t torture, some things that went wrong, but I did not know about this.”"

[Disturbed]

40. “I’ve asked why nobody saw it coming,” Condoleezza Rice

She is usually clueless about most things. I thank the Dems for overwhelmingly voting
to install her as the most useless Sec. of State ever.

[Lithos]

48. She was installed before the Dems had control

The bit about nobody saw it coming. Well, I personally chalk this up to the Pub's deliberate neutering of the intelligence community in favor of a political fantasy committee designed to rubber stamp claims. Probably got some Sophomore college student from Liberty University doing their work.

L-

[Agony]

62. "Kill A Hundred Turks And Rest…"

the whole thing-----> http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1205012429

-8<-------------
This week, a shocking document was published: David Rose's article in Vanity Fair. It describes how US officials have in recent years dictated every single step of the Palestinian leadership, down to the most minute detail. Though the article does not touch the Israeli-American relationship (in itself a surprising omission) it goes without saying that the American course, including the smallest items, is coordinated with the Israeli government.
Why shocking? These things were already known, in general terms. In this respect, that article held no surprises: (a) The Americans ordered Mahmoud Abbas to hold parliamentary elections, in order to present Bush as bringing democracy to the Middle East. (b) Hamas won a surprise victory. (c) The Americans imposed a boycott on the Palestinians, in order to nullify the election results. (d) Abbas diverted for a moment from the policy dictated to him and, under Saudi auspices (and pressure), made an agreement with Hamas, (e) The Americans put an end to this and compelled Abbas to turn over all security services to Muhammad Dahlan, whom they had chosen for the role of strongman in Palestine, (f) The Americans provided plenty of money and arms to Dahlan, trained his men and ordered him to carry out a military coup against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, (g) The elected Hamas government forestalled the move and itself carried out an armed counter-coup.
All this was known before. What is new is that the mixture of news, rumors and intelligent guesses has now condensed into an authoritative, well substantiated report, based on official US documents. It testifies to the abysmal American ignorance, which trumps even Israeli ignorance, of the internal Palestinian processes.
George Bush, Condoleezza Rice, the Zionist neocon Elliott Abrams and the assortment of American generals innocent of any knowledge are competing with Ehud Olmert, Tzipi Livni, Ehud Barak and our own assorted generals, whose understanding reaches as far as the end of the gun barrels of their tanks.
-8<-------------

Oh. never mind... Uri Averny is just a peacenic.