Double Jeopardy entraps Palestinians

[Tom Joad]

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=12606

Already condemned to a life of imprisonment by the Israeli Government for just being a Palestinian in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, every Palestinian lives in fear of being arrested and imprisoned in Israel for wanting to be free. And, international law and conventions are no source of comfort to Palestinians seeking a way out of this double jeopardy. The world has repeatedly shown that it is not prepared to hold Israel to account. Instead, Israel is allowed to continue its illegal occupation and also to blatantly disregard universal legal procedures and rules by allowing the military to introduce its own regulations and enforce them on the Palestinians. Under such conditions, it is no wonder that Palestinians feel entrapped and helpless to change their miserable circumstances.



Since 1967, one-fifth of the Palestinian population (more than 700,000 people) has ended up in Israeli jails for refusing to accept Israel’s oppressive military occupation. The vast majority of these Palestinians are not terrorists with “blood on their hands”, but ordinary men and women who have been prepared to speak out against the occupying power as would any people subjected to 40 years of human rights abuses. Of course, Israel would regard such dissidence as dangerous to its own stated goal of replacing the indigenous Palestinian population with an imported and exclusively Jewish one. Hence, Palestinians are arbitrarily arrested - often without charges being laid or a trial - subjected to interrogation, torture, and if deemed a security risk, are transported to Israel and placed in administrative detention, or if sentenced, sent to an Israeli jail. That is an extraordinary indictment on a country that professes to be a democratic state living by the rule of law.



No one speaks much about the Palestinian prisoners in Israel where they are taken in breach of the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibiting their transfer. Yet, almost every family has experienced the violence of having one of their own taken away. Children are forced to watch their fathers and brothers being herded out of home at gunpoint in the early hours of the morning, blindfolded, handcuffed and secreted away. Pregnant women and mothers have been taken and children as young as 12 are sent to adult prisons. Babies have been born in prison and are then separated from their mothers who sometimes do not see their children again until years later. Sometimes those taken prisoner disappear altogether. The sheer number of Palestinians in prison (currently some 11,000) has made it an unavoidable issue in negotiations and has led to prisoner swaps with Israel. However, nothing much changes because Israel either re-arrests those released or just arrests other Palestinians. This is why the Palestinian National Council decided to declare 17 April as Prisoners’ Day encouraging family and friends to gather throughout the Occupied Palestinian Territories and also around the world with photos of their loved ones in the hope of attracting publicity for those in prison and obtaining their release.

[Shaktimaan]

1. nice article.

Now let's examine it.

Israel is allowed to continue its illegal occupation
It is illegal? No, I don't believe it is actually. But it certainly adds some je ne sais quois to your argument, does it not?

blatantly disregard universal legal procedures and rules by allowing the military to introduce its own regulations and enforce them on the Palestinians.
And what universal legal procedure pertaining to occupied territory or warfare is being disregarded?

Since 1967, one-fifth of the Palestinian population (more than 700,000 people) has ended up in Israeli jails for refusing to accept Israel’s oppressive military occupation.
and bravely fought for their freedom by targeting innocent civilians by bomb by sniper and by stone.

The vast majority of these Palestinians are not terrorists with “blood on their hands”, but ordinary men and women who have been prepared to speak out against the occupying power as would any people subjected to 40 years of human rights abuses.
And by "speaking" you mean "silently attacking" right?

Of course, Israel would regard such dissidence as dangerous to its own stated goal of replacing the indigenous Palestinian population with an imported and exclusively Jewish one.
THAT'S Israel's stated goal? Wow! You would think someone from Israel would have, you know... actually stated it by now. They are so sneaky they have an unstated stated goal! One that is so sneaky it runs counter to their declaration of independence. How insidious!

Hence, Palestinians are arbitrarily arrested - often without charges being laid or a trial
Everyone has the right to argue their case before a judge and appeal decisions, even administrative detainees. But what's a little white lie when it comes to trashing Israel, right?

children as young as 12 are sent to adult prisons.
Children as young as 12 have also been suicide bombers. Other children as young as 12 sit at home and make falafel with their mothers. We aren't talking about those kids though.

Children are forced to watch their fathers and brothers being herded out of home at gunpoint in the early hours of the morning, blindfolded, handcuffed and secreted away.
That's a lie! No one forces them to watch.

then separated from their mothers who sometimes do not see their children again until years later.
Has no one explained the concept of prison to you?

Sometimes those taken prisoner disappear altogether.
Ooooh. A pretty serious accusation. OK, back that one up. Let's see what ya got.

The sheer number of Palestinians in prison (currently some 11,000)
Actually it is 9000. But you aren't one who goes in for that "accuracy" nonsense, now are you?

However, nothing much changes because Israel either re-arrests those released or just arrests other Palestinians.
I wonder why? What could they have possibly done? Must have been the capital crime of "dreaming of freedom while sitting peacefully." That's a class A thought crime under Israeli Occupational Shocktrooper NightLaw.

Well, that's some piece of work you got there Tom! I prefer reading op-eds from people who get their information from books instead of having it beamed straight to their tin foil helmets. But hey, different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Tom Joad]

3. For anyone to dismiss the Palestinian children as "suicide bombers"

there really has no basis for that assertion.

Thousands are arrested each year by the Occupation Army, they are not "suicide bombers" but children who have been arbitrarily arrested. Most have been accused of throwing stones at the military (not civilians) and even this is an accusation, no trials are given these children for the most part.

But trials are for people with rights. Palestinian children, in the eyes of the Occupation Army, have no rights the Israeli state is bound to consider.

[Shaktimaan]

5. you were saying?

According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, Palestinian militant groups have used children as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians." Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) have all been implicated in involving children in this way. The issue was first brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.<3>

---

According to the Israel Defense Forces:

* Since the beginning of violence in the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2000, 29 suicide attacks have been carried out by youth under the age of 18.
* Since May 2001, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of 18.
* Since the beginning of 2001, more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted (of them, three during 2004).

---

On March 24, 2004, one week after capturing a bomb in the bag of 12-year-old Abdullah Quran, Hussam Abdo, a 16-year-old Palestinian (who initially claimed he was 14), was captured in a checkpoint near Nablus wearing an explosive belt.

---

A number of groups, including the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and the current President of the Palestinian National Authority Mahmoud Abbas, claim that many children are paid by militant groups such as Hamas and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades to throw pipe bombs at Israeli soldiers, often resulting in severe injuries and handicaps to the children through premature detonation.<12> Between September 2000 and March 2004, "Palestinian non-governmental groups documented the deaths of 30 children actively involved in organized military action... Most of the deaths occurred as a result of accidents with explosives or during armed clashes with Israeli troops".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

[Shaktimaan]

6. Thousands of children are arrested each year?

Are you sure it isn't more like... 9?

9 so far this year that is. And none under 16.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Minors_in_IDF_Detention.asp

-----

edit: no trials are given these children for the most part.
You need to brush up on your math. 25 out of 700 is not "most." Sorry. But it just isn't.

Some 700 Palestinian children (minors under 18) were arrested by Israeli soldiers over the course of the year, DCI says in its report.

The introduction to the report continues as follows: "Of these, around 25 children were held on administrative detention orders, imprisonment without charge or trial. The overwhelming majority of those arrested in 2006 were boys; there were eight girl child prisoners who served sentences at different points during the year. Of these, four had been arrested in 2006.

"At any given point during the year, there were between 340 and 420 Palestinian children held in Israeli prisons and detention centers in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), with around 380 held at the end of the year. Of these, around 300 were being held in central prisons, either pending trial or after having been sentenced. The remaining 80 were being held in interrogation and detention centers.

http://www.jerusalemites.org/News%20In%20English/english/2007/March/132.htm

[Shaktimaan]

7. No rights?

But trials are for people with rights. Palestinian children, in the eyes of the Occupation Army, have no rights the Israeli state is bound to consider.

Article 78

If the Occupying Power considers it necessary, for imperative reasons of security, to take safety measures concerning protected persons, it may, at the most, subject them to assigned residence or to internment.

Decisions regarding such assigned residence or internment shall be made according to a regular procedure to be prescribed by the Occupying Power in accordance with the provisions of the present Convention. This procedure shall include the right of appeal for the parties concerned. Appeals shall be decided with the least possible delay. In the event of the decision being upheld, it shall be subject to periodical review, if possible every six months, by a competent body set up by the said Power.



Just the rights afforded to them by the Fourth Geneva Convention, that's all. What's that? You didn't know that Israel abides by Article 78 of Geneva when detaining people? Surprise, surprise.

[Tom Joad]

8. For forty years? taken against children even?

For throwing rocks at Army jeeps (not Israeli civilians, as you suggest)

And where is this right of appeal exercised?
and no where is it allowed for the occupation forces to take the prisoners out of the occupied land.

[Shaktimaan]

9. Gaza's not occupied anymore.

sorry.

I realize you have your own definitions of "occupation." But Israeli control over Gaza's airspace and operating infrastructure such as prisons within Gaza are not the same thing. For Israel to meet the standard you suggest they would have to re-invade and re-occupy Gaza. An action that I'm sure you would approve of. :sarcasm:

Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't. Right Tom?

[Tom Joad]

11. Where is Gaza mentioned in my post?

Are you replying to something else?

[Violet_Crumble]

22. You didn't mention Gaza at all, which made the reply rather strange looking n/t

[Englander]

44. I've not seen one that bizarre since the days of "Sykes-Picot".

If you remember that character who liked to make repeated mentions of Sykes-Picot, regardless of the
relevance of any mention.

[Tom Joad]

26. Still haven't clued me in on this "reply". What the hell are you talking

about?

Was this a result of a computer glitch? Maybe it was supposed to be placed in another thread?

[Englander]

45. Gaza = OPT.

So say B'Tselem, & many other NGOs. Obviously, the matter of whether such NGOs have any credibility,
& whether the amount of credibility is greater or less than the credibility of any anonymous posters
on an internet discussion forum is so self-evident that it's a wonder that the NGOs don't just give up
& change the criteria of how they come to any conclusions, & make all their decisions based on the
expressed wisdom of any anonymous posters on an internet discussion forum! ;)

16 Nov. 06: Gaza Humanitarian Crisis - A Joint Statement by Israel 's leading human rights organizations

>snip

Israel cannot shirk its responsibility for this growing crisis. Even after its Disengagement in 2005, Israel continues to hold decisive control over central elements of Palestinian life in the Gaza Strip:

1. Israel continues to maintain complete control over the air space and territorial waters.

2. Israel continues to control the joint Gaza Strip-West Bank population registry , preventing relocation between the West Bank and Gaza , and family unification.

3. Israel controls all movement in and out of Gaza , with exclusive control over all crossing points between Gaza and Israel , and the ability to shut down the Rafah crossing to Egypt .

4. Israeli ground troops conduct frequent military operations inside Gaza .
5. Israel continues to exercise almost complete control over imports and exports from the Gaza Strip.

6. Israel controls most elements of the taxation system of the Gaza Strip, and since February has withheld tax monies legally owed to the PA, and amounting to half of the to tal PA budget.

The broad scope of Israeli control in the Gaza Strip creates a strong case for the claim that Israel 's occupation of the Gaza Strip continues, along with an obligation to ensure the welfare of the civilian population. Regardless of the legal definition of the Gaza Strip, Israel bears legal obligations regarding those spheres that it continues to control. Israel has the right to defend itself. However, all military measures taken by Israel must respect the provisions of international humanitarian law.

The following Israeli human rights organizations call on the international community to ensure that Israel respects the basic human rights of residents of the Gaza Strip, and that all parties respect international humanitarian law:

B'Tselem: the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories * Association for Civil Rights in the Israel *Amnesty International–Israel Section * Bimkom: Planners for Planning Rights * HaMoked: Center for the Defense of the Individual * Gisha: Center for the Legal Protection of Freedom of Movement * Physicians for Human Rights-Israel * Public Committee Against Torture in Israel * Rabbis for Human Rights

http://www.btselem.org/English/Gaza_Strip/20061116_Brief_on_Gaza.asp

[Shaktimaan]

46. We can argue about "occupied's" application,

or we can look it up. And it will take less time to do so than you spent writing your run on sentence. By the way, this sub-thread was about Israel's legal obligation to not remove prisoners from the territories. Your source admits that their opinion of "occupation" does not meet the legal definition. They basically just say that they feel that they could make a "case" that Israel is still occupying "spheres." You can't even represent B'tselem without stretching the truth, can you?

:rofl:

Anyway, they basically admit that Israel isn't legally occupying Gaza. Therefore, Israel is not bound by the Geneva requirement of not transferring prisoners out of the area. See how that works? It's the dif between LAW and OPINION.

Thanks for proving that for me. Now here is the actual definition for those who care about honesty and accuracy.

Part II : Application of general principles #II. Occupied territory #A. Definition

Art. 41. Territory is regarded as occupied when, as the consequence of invasion by hostile forces, the State to which it belongs has ceased, in fact, to exercise its ordinary authority therein, and the invading State is alone in a position to maintain order there. The limits within which this state of affairs exists determine the extent and duration of the occupation.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebART/140-80042?OpenDocument

[Englander]

47. That was completely baffling.

Whether that was the intention or not, I don't know, but I do know that those comments are barely
coherent, relevant or recognisible as English, even. Which is one of the appeals of this place, the
unpredictability, that any responses to any posts sometimes have the element of being completely
unpredictable. Apart from the element that the Israeli form of extreme ethnic nationalism will be
supported, that element is always present.

[Shaktimaan]

10. And where is this right of appeal exercised?

Within sovereign Israel, the Defense Minister has the authority to issue Administrative Detention orders for up to 6 months in cases where there is a reasonable chance that the person harms the security of the state. The same Minister has the authority to renew such orders. Likewise, the Chief of the General Staff can issue such orders, but valid for only 48 hours. Law enforcement authorities have to show cause within 48 hours (in a hearing behind closed doors). Administrative Detention orders can be appealed to the District Court and, if denied there, to the Israeli supreme court (baga"tz). The District Court can annul such orders if it finds the admin. det. occurred for reasons other than security (e.g., common crimes, or the exercise of freedom of expression).

Within the West Bank and Gaza Strip, any local army commander can issue an administrative detention order, and the order can be appealed at the local military court, or, if denied there, at the Supreme Court. Here too, an administrative detention order is valid for at most six months, but can be renewed by the appropriate authority. (On the legality of administrative detention by an occupation force, cfr. Article 78 of the Geneva Convention.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_detention

[Englander]

25. Excellent trolling, Sir. Of the most outstanding quality.

[oberliner]

2. Where does the 11,000 figure come from?

B'Tselem cites just over 9,300 as of April 1, 2007.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Detainees_and_Prisoners.asp

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

12. Cheney: People protest US occupation of Iraq because they hate america.

Same "logic":
People protest Israel's incarceration of children because they hate Israelis.

I don't think many people buy that kind of line of thought.

[pelsar]

15. nor do many buy the same simplistic:

all israel has to do is let free all the palestinians in the prison and we'll sing "kumabaja" and peace will reign throughout the land"......

same logic as Cheney and others with their simplistic single dimensional characterizations of the conflict.

[Shaktimaan]

16. I can see why

you have resorted to straw man arguments. None of your "facts" have turned out to be correct yet in this whole thread.
But can't you invent a straw man that is relevant to the discussion? Come on, put some effort into it!

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. Defense of Children International: Palestinian Child Political Prisoners 2006 Report

(Note: B'Tselem does not have statistics on the total number of minors held by the IDF in a particular month. B'Tselem also does not have statistics on minors held by the Israeli Police. " link: http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Minors_in_IDF_Detention.asp )

Palestinian Child Political Prisoners
2006 Report - link:
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/doc/Reports/2007/ChildPrisoners2006.doc


snip:"At any given point during the year, there were between 340 and 420 Palestinian children held in Israeli prisons and detention centers in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT), with around 380 held at the end of the year. Of these, around 300 were being held in central prisons, either pending trial or after having been sentenced. The remaining 80 were being held in interrogation and detention centers. The number of children arrested in 2006 brings the total number of Palestinian children arrested by Israel since the beginning of the second Intifada in September 2000 to approximately 5,200."

Palestinian child political prisoners routinely face violations of their human rights during the arrest through imprisonment process. They are exposed to physical and psychological abuse, often amounting to torture. They are denied prompt access to an attorney and often denied contact with their families and the outside world. Many are held without charge or trial. They face substandard, often inhumane, conditions of detention, both in the facilities where they are initially held and interrogated and in those where they await trial and serve their sentence. Moreover, they are frequently denied access to proper medical care. In many cases, the arrest, interrogation and imprisonment experience has psycho-social effects that extend far beyond the period of detention. "

snip:"In 2006, there were significant changes in patterns related to the major charge on which Palestinian children were tried. The percentage of closed cases dealing with the three most serious categories of charges (attempting to kill an Israeli, possession of explosives and possession of weapons) dramatically decreased (see Table 5). At the same time, the percentage of closed cases in which the major charge was stone throwing dramatically increased, from 22.2% in 2005 to 63.8% in 2006.

Based on the striking shifts in charges, one might have expected that sentence lengths would show similarly significant shifts, but this was not the case. On the contrary, sentence lengths actually increased in 2006. This is due to a number of reasons, including a new military prosecutor at one of the courts who advocated harsher sentences for Palestinian children, and an increasingly tense political situation, in general. It is indicative of the extent to which sentence lengths issued by the Israeli military court system often have less to do with the charge before the court than with the overall political situation. "

snip:"Once the child is taken into Israeli custody, he/she is almost always blindfolded and handcuffed and transported to an interrogation center, generally, without being allowed any contact with his/her family and without recourse to an attorney. In many cases, the child is beaten while being transferred to interrogation.

In most cases, Palestinian children are taken immediately to interrogation upon arrival at an interrogation center. Given that many children are arrested in the evening or in early morning hours, these interrogation sessions often begin after midnight. The various steps that have taken place prior to interrogation, namely the violent arrest and transfer process, are calculated to assist in bringing about a quick confession from the child detainee.

Though Israel is a State Party to the UN Convention Against Torture (CAT) and the universal ban on torture forms part of customary international law, the Israel Security Service (ISS) continues to use torture in its interrogations of Palestinian political prisoners, including children. Torture has been a key part of Israel’s interrogation of these prisoners for decades. At various times, Israel has relied more on physical forms of torture than on psychological methods, which are currently most commonly used. However, irrespective of whether the abuse is physical or psychological, torture in all of its forms is banned. "

link to full report from Defense of Children International: Israel/Palestine Division:

http://www.dci-pal.org/english/doc/Reports/2007/ChildPrisoners2006.doc

.

[msmcghee]

14. No one likes to see "children" in prison.

The excerpt you posted uses the "children" term frequently in place of the less emotional "minor" term - which causes one to see it as less a scholarly study and more an agenda driven paper.

As someone's post above showed - there are very few "children" under 16 in prison for those offenses. I doubt there are many 7 or 9 year old kids starving in some dank cell - as the wording in the report suggests.

From your excerpt,

In 2006, there were significant changes in patterns related to the major charge on which Palestinian children were tried. The percentage of closed cases dealing with the three most serious categories of charges (attempting to kill an Israeli, possession of explosives and possession of weapons) dramatically decreased (see Table 5). At the same time, the percentage of closed cases in which the major charge was stone throwing dramatically increased, from 22.2% in 2005 to 63.8% in 2006.

I suspect there is a correlation. "Children" who get away with stone throwing do not graduate on to pipe bombs and molotovs - and instead find themselves off the street. Your excerpt shows clearly why the Israelis use these methods. Israeli lives are saved.

I note that there have been many riots in the US where "children" who threw rocks and bottles at cops have been apprehended, beaten with night sticks, kicked and otherwise "tortured" and then taken to jail in handcuffs - where they could remain for many months depending on the charges and circumstances.

Cops and peace keepers generally don't like being attacked violently - even by rocks that can take out an eye. Sometimes, if angry enough, they will make their prisoners pay some price that they would remember. I would suspect that in a region where these children's parents and family members are sometimes found to be involved in even more deadly suicide attacks and Qassam shootings, etc. - the "cops" may even be less tolerant with violent attacks on their being and harsher with their treatment of those apprehended.

The other side of that coin is that it seems some Palestinian kids find life in an Israeli jail better than on a Palestinian street. (See above.) In any case, of the thousands that are run through the system, a relatively small number are currently in prison, and I have seldom heard of credible charges of torture or serious injury being leveled against the IDF - much less the death of minors in custody.

I hope that none of them suffer any extra-judicial abuse. But, I'd also place some of the blame for whatever abuse they do suffer - at the feet of those (worldwide) who encourage their self-destructive "resistance".

[Violet_Crumble]

18. There's no dispute that people under 16 are children...

Putting dit-dits around the word children and insisting that calling them what they are (children) is an emotionally driven thing is ridiculous, considering the Israeli military defines anyone under the age of 16 as a child....

[Shaktimaan]

19. very true.

Good thing no one under 16 is being held in Israeli detention. :eyes:

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Minors_in_IDF_Detention.asp

[Violet_Crumble]

21. You need to check out the notes at the bottom of that page...

1. The statistics presented above indicate the number of Palestinian minors who are residents of the Occupied Territories held by the IDF on the specific date listed. B'Tselem does not have statistics on the total number of minors held by the IDF in a particular month. B'Tselem also does not have statistics on minors held by the Israeli Police.

[Shaktimaan]

17. This report is garbage.

Do you really need me to dismantle it manually? I think you can see what its problems are yourself. For example, it refers to 17 year olds who were convicted of trying to kill Israelis as "political prisoners." And it lists "yelling" at them as an example of abuse. God forbid someone yells at any suicide bomber who is only 17 and a half.

Incidentally, here's unicef's report on Israel as relating to its treatment of children & the conflict.

Israel has always advocated that the use of children in armed conflicts is entirely contrary
to basic international norms and principles of humanity. In the face of the recent outbreak
of violence (since September, 2000), Israel has repeatedly protested against the use of
children, many below the age of 15, by the Palestinian leadership. Many of these children
are placed at the forefront of the hostilities initiated against Israel including armed lynch
mobs, armed militias, and other paramilitary terrorist groups and gunmen. Israel is doing
everything in its power in order to avoid injury to innocent civilians, including children,
even as it confronts the widespread wave of violence directed against its civilians.

As part of its desire to build a culture of peace in the region, Israel pays particular attention
to the protection of children in armed conflicts and in outbreaks of violence.

http://www.unicef.org/specialsession/how_country/edr_israel_en.PDF

[Violet_Crumble]

20. More like that critique of the report was garbage...

For example, it refers to 17 year olds who were convicted of trying to kill Israelis as "political prisoners."

Incorrect. I just read that report and it didn't say anything about 17 year old suicide bombers etc being political prisoners. Why is it that yr intent on trying to make out that all child prisoners are suicide bombers?

And it lists "yelling" at them as an example of abuse. God forbid someone yells at any suicide bomber who is only 17 and a half.

Again, how many of those child prisoners are 17 year old suicide bombers? Also, yelling at children is an example of abuse. As is withholding medical treatment, beating them, sleep deprivation, etc.

[Shaktimaan]

23. incorrect. incorrect. incorrect. wait... I mean correct.

Charge 2006 2005 2004
Stone Throwing 63.8% 22.2% 31%
Possession of and/or Throwing a Molotov Cocktail 6.6% 14.3% 14.2%
Membership in a Banned Organization 18.8% 9.7% 15.3%
Attempt to Kill an Israeli 3.8% 21.3 18.3%
Possession of Explosives 3.2% 12.2% 7.3%
Weapons Possession 3.8% 14.5% 13.9%
Other - 5.8% -

Then the report refers to all Palestinian child prisoners as "political prisoners" throughout thus including those convicted of "trying to kill an Israeli." Example given.

The table below indicates which entity controls the various detention and interrogation centers where Palestinian child political prisoners are held:

(See how even though you clearly said "incorrect" it ended up still being correct in real life? Weird, huh?)

-----

Why is it that yr intent on trying to make out that all child prisoners are suicide bombers?

When the facts don't back you up why not try putting words in my mouth, right Violet? Nice tactic. And by "nice" I mean "lame to the extreeeeme duuude."

[Violet_Crumble]

24. No, yr not correct...

Because yr argument is that because you feel that any child charged with attempting to kill an Israeli isn't a political prisoner, no child being held should be called a political prisoner...

Because yr argument is that because you feel that any child charged with attempting to kill an Israeli isn't a political prisoner, no child being held should be called a political prisoner...

When the facts don't back you up why not try putting words in my mouth, right Violet? Nice tactic. And by "nice" I mean "lame to the extreeeeme duuude."

Yr own words in this thread:

'And it lists "yelling" at them as an example of abuse. God forbid someone yells at any suicide bomber who is only 17 and a half.'

Now, if every child being held was a 17 and a half year old suicide bomber, there'd be some point to you focusing on 17 and a half year old suicide bombers. But the fact is that children are being held for a variety of reasons. Why ignore the bulk of them in favour of these 17 and a half year old suicide bombers?
When the facts don't back you up why not try putting words in my mouth, right Violet? Nice tactic. And by "nice" I mean "lame to the extreeeeme duuude."

Yr own words in this thread:

'And it lists "yelling" at them as an example of abuse. God forbid someone yells at any suicide bomber who is only 17 and a half.'

Now, if every child being held was a 17 and a half year old suicide bomber, there'd be some point to you focusing on 17 and a half year old suicide bombers. But the fact is that children are being held for a variety of reasons. Why ignore the bulk of them in favour of these 17 and a half year old suicide bombers?

[Tom Joad]

27. Convicted!? ! They get no trial! And a "culture of Peace" does not come

from decades of dispossessing Palestinians of their land and homes.

I would also like to understand Israel used kids (not 17 year olds but even pre-teens) to "decorate" weapons to kill the children of Lebanon. This is the hate Israeli children are exposed to day in and day out.

http://www.stolenchildhood.net/page/10/ (middle of page)

[oberliner]

28. Weapons to kill the children of Lebanon?

Or weapons to stop Hezbollah from trying to kill the children of Israel?

I guess it depends on how you want to look at it.

[Tom Joad]

29. Either way you look at it, Israel was using children as part of the war effort.

And children of Lebanon did die, and are dying from the Israeli war.

[Tom Joad]

30. Incidently, i did post about the suffering of both the Palestinian and Israeli children

as a result of the conflict, but it wasn't noticed (didn't fit in to some people's perspective as my falsely alleged hate of Israeli's i guess)

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Tom%20Joad/23
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Tom%20Joad/22

[pelsar]

31. let me offer a correction...

you have in past made some accusations against the members of the israeli govt...who happen to be israeli citizens as well....

you've made quite a few comments on the IDF and its members...who just happen to be israeli citizens....

all of whom have little israeli children......as well as larger ones.....

so i was wondering how does one differentiate between the IDF and israeli citizens...the israeli govt, which changes every 2,3 year and its citizens?

[Tom Joad]

32. In the past,

I have made some accusations against the members of the US govt...who happen to be US citizens as well...

[Tom Joad]

34. The obvious conclusion, of course is this

Tom does not like bush, who is a US citizen.
The Johnson family of Norfolk, Nebraska are US citizens.

Therefore (in the alternate universe):
It must be true that Tom does not like the Johnson family of Norfolk, Nebraska.

Meanwhile, as Tom posts writings of people like Uri Avnery or Jeff Halper, Israeli citizens, it gets responses from those that support Israeli policy that end up reading like this:

1.Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I guess they must hate Israelis.

[pelsar]

35. the obvious conclusion....

is that Tom has very little understanding of israel and its culture......our children remain our children even when they put their uniforms on....our children remain our children, even if dad or mom are members of the govt or a trade union. Our Dads may be a civilian or a govt employee but he also may be member of the IDF and in fact he may meet his son who may also be in uniform, but his son is still his son. Our govts have been left right and center over the years......and they do represent us:

conclusion:
tom doesnt understand that our govt and country are unlike that of the US.

[Tom Joad]

36. How is that different than the US.

US children grow up to be members of the House or Senate or sit in the Cabinet...
US children grow up and some put on uniforms and serve in wars chosen by Presidents, who have been voted for (well, mostly, even if the elections are sometimes dishonest) by US citizens.

Hell, LBJ was voted in overwhelmingly and sent young americans, our neighbors and uncles and cousins or whatever to kill and die in an insane, illegal war.

So how is Israel different?

[pelsar]

d/p

[pelsar]

38. triple post n/t

[pelsar]

39. the difference is......

in the way most israelis identify with the IDF and to a lesser degree our govt........it is that i believe you dont understand....When you call the IDF the occupation army (or the articles you post do), you would probably be surprised at how insulting that is to most israelis. And that has nothing to do with whether or not they are on the left/right side of the line.

When the articles you post accuse the "occupation army" of looking to murder palestinian children, etc. those articles are describing my neighbors children, my nieces and nephews, my own kids (in two years).......we look upon those children, when we see them at birthday parties, or coming home from trips, preparing for the tests, in youth groups arguing about liberalism vs socialism with all their heart, about caring for the weaker strata in society and we wonder how can people write such BS about such wonderful kids?. ......how they can make up so many stories about how cold hearted and bad they are....

our only conclusion is that for some unknown unexplainable reason is that "they must really really really hate us.".......and that only fuels the conflict...and those who spread such BS, they too keep the fires of the conflict going.

(AB Yehoshua, a famous israeli "left wing writer" son was killed in Lebanon (who was no doubt in the westbank and gaza)....I doubt he believes his child is some kind of palestinian child killing machine, as the articles you post seem to indicate...)

[Shaktimaan]

40. Israel is different

in that nearly everyone is part of the IDF. (Or has been or will be.) When you discuss Israel's military you are not addressing a relatively small portion of the population, you are talking about almost everyone. For a few weeks a year every man is a soldier in the IDF.

[Tom Joad]

41. Millions of US citizens have already served in Iraq.

[Shaktimaan]

42. Really, millions?

Are you sure you don't mean "thousands?" Because that would be more accurate.

Let's see, four years with a constant 150,000 US soldiers (give or take) and a normal tour of duty being 1 year. Let's pretend that everyone only does one tour. So 150,000 x 4 = 600,000. But the reality is that no one does just one tour. It's more like 2 to 3. So even taking into consideration casualties and wounded, we are looking at a number that's far less than half a million.

However, even if we assume that there have been 1 million Americans who have served in Iraq so far, that amounts to only one third of one percent of all Americans. I can't believe you're even trying to argue that there is a similarity between our military and Israel's in that respect.

[pelsar]

43. do US politicians send their own kids?

Hell, LBJ was voted in overwhelmingly and sent young americans, our neighbors and uncles and cousins or whatever to kill and die in an insane, illegal war.

the "cream of the crop" of israeli youth are found in combat units....and that includes the politicans and the general sons and daughters...

so when the politicians and generals go to war, they're sending their own kids and grandchildren. Your going to tell me that its similar in the States?
_____

and if you want an example of how "damaging" the articles you post are to your ideals, my 16 is a good example:
an aware kid, whos now flirting the ideal of socialism and the ills of capitalism (we spent days arguing if the spartan 300 were defending a potential democracy or if they were no more than a simplisic militant cult), who is far more interested in being part of the global community than being part of a nation state......read your OP and other zmag articles and the posts here.

he was shocked and disgusted at the way his friends and society are described......i cant say where its going to take him but it put a question mark in his head about the "global community." He'll probably take what he read to his socialist youth group and discuss it there as well.

congrates tom...you may have just helped make another israeli combat solider volunteer.

[eyl]

33. LOL It's ironic

how you harp on how Palestinians only hate Israel because Israel makes them suffer, but apperently when Israeli children "decorate" shells - and FWIW, all the writing I could make out was specifically against Nasrallah, not Arabs or Lebanon in general - it's obviously because Israel is teaching them hate, and not because they'd spent days in a bomb shelter due to Hizbullah rockets.

And in any event, I fail to see how children scribbling graffiti on a shell counts as using them as part of the war effort.

Also, in case you missed it, the report states that the majority were tried

[number6]

37. so true

No one speaks much about the Palestinian prisoners in Israel

our slanted MSM never does