We did it! They're killing each other

[wellst0nev0ter]

The second Lebanon war made many doubt the government's ability to think in advance about the results of its actions, analyze future implications, and act accordingly. However, the government's conduct in regards to the Palestinians no doubt attests to the strategic planning abilities of a distinguished chess master who patiently lays a trap for his opponent, step by step, until the king is defeated. Checkmate.

In fact, it won't be an exaggeration to say that those least surprised by the recent bloody clashes between Fatah and Hamas in the Territories were the same political figures who were quick to rule that "at this time, the Palestinian agenda is dead" – an effective "confirmed kill" that came to end prospects of talking with the other side. Israel can continue referring to the violent chaos as an "internal Palestinian matter" and present itself as uninvolved in it, but the roots of this dangerous confrontation stem from Israeli policy that made sure to weaken both sides – Fatah and Hamas – equally , so that none of them can effectively rule over the Territories.

From the day he was elected president, Israel referred to Mahmoud Abbas as an empty, weak, and impotent figure, thus laying the groundwork for his defeat in parliamentary elections and ascension of Hamas to power. The most blatant example of this policy is of course Israel's refusal to coordinate the Gaza Strip withdrawal with the Palestinian government, which did not include Hamas at the time, while opting for a unilateral move – a brilliant Israeli maneuver that exempted the government, in its own eyes, of the need to refer to the Palestinian side, which it viewed as virtual.

As we know, the "no partner" policy was not invented in honor of Hamas, yet with the rise of the Islamic movement to power, this policy took a grave active turn: Not only do we refuse to talk with this no-partner, we also use all means available in order to defeat it, including the abduction of its elected officials and starvation of its voters.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3312514,00.html

[aquart]

1. Fatah and Hamas killing each other.

Ahhhhhhh. Now you know why I'm in favor of Palestinian statehood.

On edit: Hold on, you think this is the product of outside influence and interference? LOL!

[wellst0nev0ter]

3. Yes

Hamas was created with the help of the Israelis in order to destabilize Fatah. Fatah was destabilized by the support and the undermining of Abbas by Israel, leaving Hamas to take over the political vacuum. Israel is now undermining the Hamas government by withholding legitimate tax monies and engaging in open warfare with the government.

Do know that PA when ran by Fatah was successful in detaining and marginalizing the Hamas terrorists back during the salad days before the current neocon disease infected Israel and its hardline supporters. I count you among the loathesome group because you find it amusing that the Fatah are now engaged in a war with the people they have once legitimately considered as mere criminals.

[aquart]

7. Ah, so the poor, biddable Palestinians had no choice in the matter.

They must, of course, do whatever the Israelis desire. All Israelis are Svengalis, of course.

Yes, dear, I do find it amusing. I always find it amusing when people whose communal choice was to blow up buses and markets turn to killing each other. (Who buys their weapons, btw?)

But, of course, the poor helpless victims of Israeli aggression had no choice but to blow up buses and markets. Poor dears. Poor dears.

Naturally, I'm much more loathesome than people who recruit young men and women to explode themselves in public. I can understand your thinking that.

[wellst0nev0ter]

8. People Who Mock The Death Of People Are Loathsome, Dear

And I'll bet you'd like the Palestinians to solve all the problems for the Israelis by themselves, but you know full well that the Israelis will have to pull their own weight too in order to turn it around.

[Spinoza]

11. In the Middle Ages,

the belief was: 'The Devil Made Me Do It'. Once again, apparently, the Israeli devil made me do it.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. What exactly was untrue about this statement?

'Hamas was created with the help of the Israelis in order to destabilize Fatah. Fatah was destabilized by the support and the undermining of Abbas by Israel, leaving Hamas to take over the political vacuum. Israel is now undermining the Hamas government by withholding legitimate tax monies and engaging in open warfare with the government.'

Fercryingoutloud, none of the above is anything new and it's hard, cold fact, whether you and others like it or not....

[Englander]

15. That's a seriously disgusting attitude.

Managing to find mocking humour in this situation really is a reprehensible attitude.

[shergald]

17. Removing the context is an old propaganda ploy.

"the poor helpless victims of Israeli aggression had no choice but to blow up buses and markets. Poor dears. Poor dears."

When the Palestinians were given hope that they might finally achieve their own independent country, like during the Clinton 90s, after Rabin saw the light, after the PA received recognition and Arafat arrived in the territories, and during the Oslo talks, there were no suicide bombings by Hamas or Fatah.

When it became evident that Camp David/Taba only offered them a South African style Bantustan existence, after Sharon's (known to Palestinians as the Butcher of Beirut) provocative visit to the Temple Mount, and his declaration that Oslo is dead, only then did retaliatory suicide bombings occur.

However, suicide bombings did not occur until many Palestinians had been killed by the IDF in the first month, after it resumed occupation of the territories. Among those killed were 27 Palestinian children, most of whom were shot in the head. In the first three months of this second or al Aqsa Intifada, many more children were killed and wounded. Among those wounded were 159 children who lost an eye, apparently to rubber bullets. Most were rock throwing Intifada boys. In reply, and in apparent justification of these attacks on the children, an IDF spokeperson presented an IDF soldier in a news release to American audiences, who was bloodied and had an serious eye injury. He was the only soldier so injured in the first three years of the rebellion, which now became a resistance against a resumed military occupation.

These children were the "poor helpless victims of Israeli aggression," I assume that you are talking about.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. like the rising sun....or "others"...

Never the fault of Palestinians, always the fault of Israel. How is it that people cannot see the blatant bigotry and racism involved in these "opinions?"

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Phx_Dem]

5. You do know that "projection" is freudian crap, right?

NT

[breakaleg]

6. It is what it is.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. yup!

Anti-Israeli propaganda absolving any responsibility of the Palestinians.

[wellst0nev0ter]

18. I Already Told You, Israel Won't Allow Peaceful Resistance

I'm tired of explaining this simple fact slowly to you people, I'm sure you can read for yourself.

http://antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=5796

[Behind the Aegis]

19. Puh-leaze!

Anti-war.com?! :rofl: I might as well use "Israel R Us" as a source!

[wellst0nev0ter]

20. Don't Worry, The Piece is Backed Up With Something Called "Facts"

For example, the primary source is this Ha'aretz article describing how the Israelis violently put down a peaceful demonstration of which they used provacateurs to infiltrate and disrupt the demonstration itself.

Or you can remain wallowed in your own biases. Your choice.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. SOME facts...

...the rest is editorialized drivel.

[wellst0nev0ter]

24. So The FACT That Israel Violently Put Down A Peaceful Protest

is "editorialized drivel"? That's good to know.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. I didn't say THAT, now did I?

[wellst0nev0ter]

26. Oh, So Israel DID Put Down A Peaceful Protest And Used Agitators

and yet you saved your criticisms for the author of the peace and the whole website. Where does that clear thinking thing kick in?

[Behind the Aegis]

28. One fact.

One correct fact (and actually, there are a few others) doesn't excuse the blatant propaganda throughout the resst of the "peace" (sic). As for the site, I have read many things on that site and it is mostly crap.

[idontwantaname]

29. i agree

though written mainly by you, solo in MD and barb.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. I have never written anything for antiwar.com.

I also don't use them as a source. Unlike those that use ISM as a source of "facts." :eyes:

[idontwantaname]

32. i thank you for not deleting the above post

but i dont think you or i want to get into this sort of debate. but if youre bored enough im game. start posting links.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. What?

I have used antiwar.com as a source? It is possible, but I don't think I have ever used it, unless it was to show how they printed lies. As for ISM, you surely aren't going to tell me that they aren't a propaganda arm for the Palestinians?

[idontwantaname]

34. links not opinions. i know your opnion. now i want links to back it up. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

35. That ISM is propaganda?!

You have got to be kidding. Anything I provide you will say is pro-Israeli propaganda, to which I will say "prove it" and the merry-go-round will continue. I can spot pro-Israeli propaganda, even used it. Are you really going to sit there and tell me you can't see when something is Palestinian propaganda and that you haven't used it too?

[idontwantaname]

36. in plain english

you wrote: Unlike those that use ISM as a source of "facts."

----------------------

please post a link to an ISM report which states "lies", as they are the opposite of fact, correct?

[Englander]

49. Kick for bta. n/t

[breakaleg]

22. It's Israel that has the proganda machine. You must be confused.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. BOTH sides have propaganda machines.

If you don't know that, then the bias is way too deep.

[breakaleg]

27. Are you seriously comparing the propgandana put out by the many

Israeli groups - AIPAC included - to anything put out by Palestinians? How can they afford to pay for such organizations when they have no food or water?

What you call propganda on the Palestinian side is simply the truth.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. I SAID that BOTH sides have propaganda machines!

"What you call propaganda on the Israeli side is simply the truth."

Hmmm, if I were to say that it would be dismissed outright as...um...well, propaganda!

"How can they afford to pay for such organizations when they have no food or water?"

You have got to be kidding me?! You gave an example of an AMERICAN group putting out propaganda. Do you think, just maybe, that it isn't just the Palestinians that are spewing propaganda?! ISM comes to mind!

[shergald]

37. I asked someone else to give me an example of

Palestinian propaganda and/or media lies. He/she did not respond. Would you like to try?

We are all aware of a concerted effort on the part of Israel to coordinate, censor, distort, and manipulate news getting into the US, the main being the nonreporting of serious IDF-Palestinian encounters in the West Bank and Gaza. Show me anything Palestinian that comes close to what is reported in the reviews below of the Israeli propaganda machine.

Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land (with Noam Chomsky, Robert Fisk, Arik Ackerman, founder of Rabbis for Human Rights, and many others)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696&q=peace%2C+propaganda%2C+and+the+promised+land

Off The Charts: Media Bias and Censorship in America (Alison Weir)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5600677940569035557&q=Alternate+Focus

Interview: Jeff Halper (founder of Israeli Committee Against House Demolition (ICAHD)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=972845012851906265&q=jeff+halper+ICAHD

Jeff Halper describes the reality on the ground in the West Bank that most Americans are totally unaware of.

[Lurking Dem]

38. You are aware

that Arafat's mother-in-law ran the biggest PR firm in the Middle East, right? You act like Palestinians are incapable of, either mentally or financially, of propoganda campaigns. Why is that?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zTX3CZqDyOA

[wellst0nev0ter]

39. Be Honest

You know full well that even Palestinian facts rarely get much airtime in the U.S. media markets.

[shergald]

41. See Alison Weir's flim, Off The Charts.

She provides statistics on reports of Israeli and Palestinian deaths in US media, several newspapers and the MSM TV channels.

[Lurking Dem]

42. Weir and Findley

funded the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth.

I don't give a shit what they have to say.

[Englander]

43. Are you sure?

Because I've never heard that before, (well I have, but not from a credible source) could you
elaborate? Or this is another eg of shite being made up?

[shergald]

44. There must certainly be a link.

Where did this information come from?

[Englander]

47. I can remember reading it in this forum, months ago.

One of the long-time posters here used to make the claim, along with an enormous amount of other
scarcely credible claims. I've never seen the claim anywhere else, & I've never seen any evidence
to substantiate the claim. Maybe if we're lucky, LD will explain everything.

[shergald]

48. It was just part of an attempt to censor Alison Weir off the boards.

It is one thing to be the my country right or wrong type of proIsraeli, but it is quite another to defame a decent journalist, who is just trying to tell the truth. Noam Chomsky gets the same kind of treatment, depicted as a self-hater.

I read a critique of Weir's work after being directed to it, and it was nothing more than a propaganda piece replete with falsehoods and innuendo. She presented the data on which she draws conclusions, but comments about it were avoided like a plague. So just who is the lying propagandist in all this?

[Lurking Dem]

51. I can't take seriously

a woman who claims "Zionists" collaborated with the Nazis and that the 1948 war was an unprovoked aggressive attack by Israel.

Nor can I take seriously anyone who thinks her credible.

[shergald]

52. Please supply some links or references.

I can see Zionists trying to negotiate with Nazis to allow Jews to come to Palestine, but collaboration is a different story. What did she say they collaborated on?

[Englander]

50. Kick for LD. n/t

[shergald]

40. Not at all.

I just haven't run across any sites that are trying to spin the Palestinian situation. How can you make a 39 year military occupation look worse. I did see some nonsense on a page (critique of If Americans Knew viewed recently), which proported that Palestinians like high body counts of their own civilians for propaganda purposes, but I've not heard of them killing their own or somehow arranging it. It sounded like Israeli propaganda instead.

I did hear of an Israeli report about a staged event on the west bank or gaza by Arab newsmen, but I'm not certain why Palestinians need to stage anything. There is plenty of their blood spilled by IDF to satisfy the photographers, if they are allowed in. Because of restrictions, I heard that many Palestinians were using home video equipment to document violence.

So I'll just repeat the question again. If it is prevalent, whether by Arafat's mother or whomever, there must be evidence of it. What can be propaganda if it is not published?

[shergald]

45. And this is the second time this claim has been made....

and the second time no one responded to provide documentation of it.

More bogus propaganda?

[Englander]

46. 'Pallywood'? Wtf?

As endorsed by such fine upstanding progressives as FrontPageMag, & D. Pipes, & the conservative
evangelical xtian & UFO-loving site, WND;

Who killed Mohammed al-Dura?
Author writes about the theory that the al-Dura incident was staged
Published: WorldNetDaily.com, 2000-12-04
Author: David Kupelian

Review of Jim Lederman's book "Battle lines: The American Media and the Intifada"
Published: www.danielpipes.org,
Author: Daniel Pipes

The Jenin Syndrome
Article by Raphael Israeli on the production of stories and tales by palestinians
Published: Jerusalem Post, 2002-03-05
Author: Raphael Israeli

POISON: THE USE OF BLOOD LIBEL IN THE WAR AGAINST ISRAEL
Author Rapheal Israeli on the production of anti-Israel stories by Palestinians
Published: www.jcpa.org, 2002-04-15
Author: Raphael Israeli

The Israeli Crime That Wasn't
Article about the staging of scenes for the western media by Palestinians
Published: FrontPageMagazine.com, 2004-12-28
Author: Alyssa A. Lappen

THE LESSON OF JENIN
the "Jenin Massacre" was created by the PR failure of the IDF coupled with PA propaganda
Published: TNR Online, 2005-05-08
Author: Jacob Dallal

http://www.seconddraft.org/articles.php?a_cat=Pallywood

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Orly Noy has bigoted opinions?

It is NOT bigoted or racist to criticise Israel for its policies. If there is any comment that she has made in her article that is bigoted, feel free to point it out and explain *why* you consider it to be bigoted....

an additional question: If you consider criticism of Israel (or in this case, criticism of Israel that's not followed by equal or more criticism of the Palestinians) to be bigoted and racist, then do you also consider it bigoted and racist when there's similar levels of criticism aimed at the Palestinians by other writers?

[Violet_Crumble]

13. kick for bta n/t

[Englander]

14. I think he's busy elsewhere -

'Italian TV: Israel used new weapon prototype in Gaza Strip'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2557749&mesg_id=2557749

[Englander]

16. ~~