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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 05:57 AM
Original message
Ahmadinejad denies Holocaust, again
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1134309577132&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Dec. 14, 2005 10:21 | Updated Dec. 14, 2005 10:41
Ahmadinejad denies Holocaust, again
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

For the third time in a week, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Wednesday the Holocaust is a "myth" that Europeans have used to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

Speaking to thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan, Ahmadinejad said: "Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets."
snip


Similar statements were made by the Iranian president on Monday at an Islamic conference in Teheran that was attended by Khaled Mashaal, Hamas's political leader.

The next day, Ahmadinejad spoke on Iranian television, doubting the Nazi destruction of European Jewry during World War II. The television did not air the controversial remarks, but his words were published on Iranian state television's Web site

snip
.


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Isn't there already a thread about this very same thing?
n/t
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. There's about 1/2 dozen, aren't there?
It certainly seems like there are.

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. this is NEW, the THIRD rant /speech in a week
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Wow, he's on a roll, isn't he?
n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Is there?
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
7.  self delete
Edited on Wed Dec-14-05 06:06 AM by barb162
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. different day, different rant (speech), Violet
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. details, details...
...don't bother with them, they are just "strawmen!" Don't you know that!? :rofl:
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Umm, I think they were referring to...
... your thread in LBN on exactly the same news from Ha'aretz:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1985704

Cheers.

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. People crossposting to different forums is okay
especially if it is LBN and also applicable to I/P
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. I wasn't referring to crossposting...
... I was referring to the snarky aside to others about their mention of repeated postings....

Some people stay on the main page and notice all posts, rather than staying in one forum.

Aside from that, one has to realize that the Iranian president is playing to his domestic audience for political purposes in making such statements. Those statements are foolish and stupid, but no more so than, say, Franklin Graham saying that Islam is an "evil religion," or George Bush saying he's on a "crusade" or his sending out Karen Hughes to lecture Islamic women.

The rest of the world (and much of Iran, as well) knows the reality of Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen and Buchenwald and the Nazi Germany which created them.

Maybe Iran is feeling threatened by the concerted efforts of the first and fourth nuclear powers in the world to violate its sovereignty, and their current president is not very sophisticated in expressing that fear....



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Hyperbole isn't...
... exactly of great influence in rational consideration of the situation.

Let's just address some simple facts. Iran has not started a war against anyone in modern history. Its only war was fought (for nearly ten years) against Iraq when Hussein ordered a surprise attack against it. At the beginning of that war, Hussein was actively seeking to produce nuclear weapons, presumably for use against its principal enemy of the time, Iran. At precisely the same time, Israel was shipping arms and military spare parts to Iran, presumably at the behest of the United States, and to counter, somewhat cynically, the threat of Iraq.

Now, let's fast forward to today. Iran has no nuclear weapons, but is seeking to maintain control of its nuclear fuel cycle to prevent outside interference--that much has been verified by the IAEA and independent research. It's been verified because Iran is a signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, and has submitted (haltingly, at times) to international inspections. The United States (which covets oil around the world) claims that such action is a precursor step to uranium enrichment for the purpose of building nuclear weapons. That is still a possibility.

What's the flip side of that? Israel has been a nuclear power since 1959. It is not a signatory of the NNPT, and has never allowed international inspection. By 1986, it had approximately 200 nuclear weapons, based on Mordecai Vanunu's estimates to the British press. By now, if Israel continued at its previous production rate, it has over 400 nuclear warheads, making it, likely, the fourth largest nuclear power in the world, and possibly the third (depending upon how many weapons France has retained). In addition to that, Israel has the largest and most up-to-date conventional military force in the entire region. It is that because it is the foremost beneficiary of US military and economic foreign assistance in the world.

So, what's the reality of Iran "wiping Israel off the map?" It's just defensive posturing. It's just talk, and everyone in the world knows that--except for the fanatics in this country. With regard to nuclear weapons proliferation in the region, Israel is the destabilizing force, not Iran.

You're entitled to disagree, but Israel has the same problem we do--it's been in the grip of the right wing for too damned long, and about 35-40% of its population would probably agree with that statement. Israel's actions in the Middle East have made us--because we defend Israel on issues that are not defensible--more at risk for terrorism and for degradation of our reputation around the world.

I'm going to be blunt. The Bushies and the Likud leaders in Israel, from all evidence, are conspiring to start a war against Iran. The US is mostly interested in oil. Israel is mostly interested in maintaining its military hegemony in the region. Those interests will coalesce to eventually cause an attack on Iran. Neither the US nor Israel is in any actual danger from Iran militarily now or in the foreseeable future. Both the US and Israel are trying to escalate the situation. To use hyperbole at this moment is to attempt to justify actions which are both illegal and immoral and which furthers that escalation. Many innocent people will die if that hyperbole is translated into policy and action.

Denying the facts to foster war is exactly what Bush has done.

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. How is it you are sure "It's just defensive posturing"
and "It's just talk."
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Start with this:
1) Which are the militarily superior countries in this matter? Israel and the US.

2) Which country has the largest ally in the region on which it can depend for support? Israel.

3) Which country has spontaneously attacked another country in defense of its interests? Israel against Iraq in 1981, for sure.

4) Which countries first began making military threats with regard to Iran's (possibly peaceful) nuclear capabilities? The US and Israel.

5) Which countries have the capability to attack from the air without violating another country's airspace? Israel and the US.

6) Which country has a formal written policy to use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear countries at the field commander's discretion? The United States in its 2002 Nuclear Posture Review.

7) Which country has a formal written policy of regime change in Iran? The United States. The Israeli ambassador to the US concurred with this policy in April, 2003.

8) Which country has leaked to the world press, well before the election of Ahmadinejad (the source of recent comments about Israel), that it has been training to attack Iran's nuclear reactor at Bushehr? Israel. Additionally, Seymour Hersh has reported, many months ago, that the United States was doing secret surveillance inside and over Iran for the purposes of creating targeting information.

9) Which country ignored international law, lied to its public and the UN Security Council, and invaded another country for the purposes of regime change? The United States, with training and intelligence support from whom? Israel.

10) Which country has been under an arms embargo mandated and enforced by the US for the past twenty-seven years and has been generally unable to obtain spare parts for its largely US-built equipment? Iran. The last known shipment were Hawk surface-to-air missiles (1960s technology) during the Iran-Iraq war as part of the Iran-Contra scheme.

11) Which countries have large nuclear capabilities? Israel and the US. Which has none to date? Iran.

12) Which countries have significant stand-off attack capabilities? The US and Israel. Israel has a number of cruise-missile submarines, and US capability in this regard is prodigious--submarines, missile cruisers and aircraft carriers along with many aircraft capable of carrying long-range air-launched cruise missiles. Iran has virtually no navy beyond coastal patrol boats and a handful of Chinese-made fast-attack PT boats (its three destroyers are over fifty years old and are not operational, its three frigates are not functional most of the time and its four minesweepers are rarely available and have no minesweeping capability). Its intermediate-range missile program is still under development. It may have completed a 1000-km two-stage missile capable of hitting Israel, but production in any significant numbers is doubtful, because some of the parts for that missile originate from China and North Korea and are controlled by the US embargo, so shipments of parts are sporadic at best. Right now, that IRBM could carry a single 700 kg conventional warhead, less than the equivalent of one 2000 lb. bomb. Iran may have a very few medium-range cruise missiles, since about 18 Russian missiles were smuggled out of the Ukraine in 1999-2001, some going to Iran, some going to China. It's not known how many each country received.

13) Iran's current military is largely defensive in structure--a holdover characteristic from the days of the Shah and the Iran-Iraq war. It depends heavily on an air defense system designed to shoot down aircraft penetrating its own air space, and yet, it has had little luck in destroying surveillance drones used by the US recently. Since its navy is negligible, it depends upon Sunburn and Silkworm surface-to-sea missiles in coastal installations for naval defense. It has air interceptors, but those aircraft are aging, and many are not flying for lack of spare parts; moreover, Iran has virtually no air-to-air refueling capability for those aircraft. This means their range is severely limited. It has a significant depth in tanks, but those are aging, as well, and the numbers are well down from the `80s (it is now building its own tanks, but production is not high). Many tanks were lost in the Iran-Iraq war and not replaced. Iran depends very heavily on tactical, rather than strategic, weapons, such as short-range artillery rockets and Russian short-range (30-100 mile) missiles. Iran's main strength is in soldiers--nearly a million with active-duty, regular and irregular militia combined, but it has limited ability to move those troops rapidly. Its helicopter manufacturing program is still relatively recently initiated.

14) Finally, Iran has a history of harsh rhetoric against the US and Israel since 1979. Recall that the US was named "the Great Satan" and Uncle Sam frequently burned in effigy in 1979-1980 because of its embargo on Iran and the freezing of Iranian assets, not to mention that the Shah was the puppet of the US. No military action came of that, and it was clear at the time that Iran was in no position to act militarily against the US. The Islamic Revolutionary government has consistently spoken this way publicly when it has felt threatened, and the combination of Bush and Sharon has been particularly threatening over the last few years.

It's quite possible that the election of a hard-liner like Ahmadinejad was a direct result of the open threats made on Iran by the US and Israel since Bush came to office. Up to that time, the moderates in Iran were gaining ground, and there were considerable back-channel, informal communications with the Clinton administration. Bush arrives in Washington with a busload of Likudniks in tow and the next thing we know, he's using the State of the Union address to describe Iran as part of an "Axis of Evil." When a country like the US, with its unchallenged military power, starts talking like that, it's bound to make Iran defensive, and the net result may be the election of Ahmadinejad because--just like Bush and Sharon--he likes to talk tough. Also, let's keep in mind that there's a practical example of Bush's indifference to sovereignty right next door to Iran. That has to unnerve the entire population. People are much the same everywhere. Bush scared the hell out of the American public in order to get reelected. Ahmadinejad likely won because the Iranians are scared--by both the US and Israel.

That's why I think it's defensive posturing.

Cheers.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Which country
has been sponsering proxy attacks against Isrel (including against civilians) for decades?

Which country's leaders explicitly threatened Israel's destruction - including the threat of using nuclear weapons?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. You can talk about proxy attacks...
... but I see those, broadly, as a response to Israel's various long-term occupations of land not their own for the last forty years. Some people forget, these days, but terrorist response to Israeli occupation of Palestine predates the Islamic Revolutionary government of Iran.

And, in your latter remark, what is it? It's, again, another verbal threat without the ability to carry it out. I repeat, which countries actually have massive numbers of conventional and nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them? And, I will answer, again. The US and Israel.

Unfortunately, some people in this country think that rough talk is somehow a worthy reason for military attack, because it suits their world view. If it were, we would have gone up in thermonuclear flames when Krushchev said, "we will bury you."

George Washington, in his farewell address in 1796, said, "A passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation facilitates the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, infuses into one the enmities of the other, and betrays the former into participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification.... It also gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens, who devote themselves to the favorite nation, facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country."

It's in the interests of this country (contrary to the beliefs of the current administration) to avoid and deter war by this country and others. Have you considered the adage that "war is the terrorism of the powerful, terrorism is the war of the powerless?" Have you considered that, if Israel is seen as cooperative in any attack to destabilize or overthrow Iran, or to destroy its reactor facilities, that terrorism against Israel may actually increase?

Cheers.
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. First of all
what does it matter what the background of Iran's support of anti-Israeli terrorism is? After all, you seem to take exception to Israel threatening Iran in response.

And lest you forget, while Iran may not currently have the means to attack Israel, they're making those threats at the same time they're trying to acquire those means!. If someone says "I'm going to kill you" and starts shopping around for guns, do you think the police should wait until he actually shoots at you before doing something?
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Gee, that sounds a lot like...
... Bush's preemptive war policy, doesn't it?

*sigh*
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Did Iraq sponser
Edited on Thu Dec-15-05 01:24 PM by eyl
proxy attacks against the US (something which is considered an "act of aggression", by the UN's rules, BTW).

Did Iraq threaten to destroy the US, and was it acquiring weapons capable of doig so at the time?

Not to mention that most of the world seems convinced Iran is attempting to gain nuclear weapons.
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. Excuse me?
Snarky? Pot meet kettle. :P

The president of Iran is a lunatic and there seems to be a consensus on that. His talk is dangerous and threatening and has nothing to do with how "sophisticated" he is.

His words are deliberately intended to provoke a negative response.

Franklin Graham didn't threaten to annihilate an entire nation so that's hardly a good comparison. He's just an ignorant fundie with no bombs.

Incurious George has a problem with the English language and never reads books so his use of the word "crusade" was ignorance of the implications of that word.

This guy in Iran is a delusional megalomaniac who might have WMD and that's scary.




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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Actually, there were some snarky comments made...
The deletions and self-deletion should give a bit of a hint that there were. Also, I saw nothing at all snarky in punpirate's post...

Violet....
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. ummm...you could be right...
...but, if you read their posts, you'd see that was not the case.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Yeah, I thought it was rant #2...
I didn't realise he's gotten into saturation ranting. I guess no-one wants to start a pool on how many different times and different places he'll say this in the next week?


Violet...
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. It's a popular subject.
The more, the merrier I always say.
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. Demonize the opposition
The Rendon Group is in full mobilization now against Iran. Once again our administration is making terrible mistakes and is in the process of attempting an Iranian takeover.

The announcement of Israeli intentions to attack Iran in March was a very poor move which had to have the approval of Washington.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. do you have a link for your first statement on Rendon?
There'd be no takeover of Iran unless there's a draft
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teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Like I said its a stupid foreign policy
I don't have the link, gotta go to work right now. Rhodesians don't need a standing army. They play the great game.

I read a long piece on Rendon over the weekend. This has all the characteristics of their work. I have no proof the story is theirs. If I was an intelligence analyst, I'd bet my career on it.
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
18. Ahhhh...I see historical revision is branching out
It never ends. I see being wrong and trying to revise history is not restricted to RW bigots in America (like the Klan)or politicians in Europe. Iran has decided to jump into the fray. The President of Iran is a fundamentalist nut job, just like marion, jerry and donald (robertson, falwell and wildmon).
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. The sickness bequeathed by the west to the Muslim world - Freedland
---snip---

Suddenly, the usual apologetics won't work. No one can say Iran's president was really complaining about Israel or Zionism, rather than Jews. No one can say he was talking about the west's colonial crimes. He was peddling, instead, one of the defining tropes of the racist hard right: Holocaust denial. It is a stance that seeks to deny Jews their history, their suffering, almost their very being. Like denying that African-Americans were ever slaves, it is a move made by those who wish only harm.

---snip---

Well, now I'm done with the charitable explanations. A man who refuses to believe the historic truth is capable of anything. This is not an Arabic cable TV station or an obscure Egyptian newspaper. This is a head of government, the leader of a nation of 70 million - a country that aspires to lead the Muslim world. And, lest we forget, Iran has nuclear ambitions. So now it's not paranoid to worry about a president with annihilationist dreams - it's smart.

---snip---

It's hardly a surprise. TV stations across the Muslim world have been running this garbage for ages, along with lurid anti-semitism. Jordanian TV's Ramadan special this year was Al-Shatat, a Syrian-produced series that speaks of a "global Jewish government" and depicts the ancient blood libel: the accusation that Jews use the blood of Christian children in preparing food for Passover. That was a follow-up to Egyptian television's Ramadan treat in 2002: Horseman without a Horse, whose central theme was the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the century-old forgery concocted by the Tsarist secret police which alleged a Jewish plot to take over the world.

We can deny it no longer: the virus of anti-semitism has infected the Muslim world. And virus it is, for Jew-hatred on this scale, as Christian Europe can testify, is a kind of sickness. This is one of the grossest legacies bequeathed by the west: that Muslims have taken to heart a form of anti-semitism alien to their own lands, borrowing a language and iconography that was made in Christendom. Blood libels and the Protocols were dreamed up in Norwich, Mainz or Moscow - yet now they breathe anew in Cairo, Riyadh and Damascus.

---snip---
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occuserpens Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
31. The total cold war
Edited on Thu Dec-15-05 03:07 PM by occuserpens
One simple way to interpret Khomeinist anti-Israeli fantasies is to compare them with N.Korean position. Apparently, both Kim and Ahmadinejad reject two models of their relationship with the West:
-- Active military confrontation, they don't want to be destroyed.
-- Any meaningful diplomatic process, they find breaking the iron curtain counterproductive. Domestically, the goal is to suppress local pro-Westerners.

So, their apparent goal is a total no-detente cold war. 50 years ago, N.Koreans discovered the ingenious way to fight such war and practice it ever since. What they do is combination of hostile black PR operations with demonstrations of "good will". For example, they can call top US official "psychotic" and then agree for the next round of multilateral talks. However, in the end, all this comes to nothing - as designed.
Now Ahmadinejad does exacty the same, but using specifically Khomeinist ideological language. Knowing for sure that "Holocaust denial" excludes any meaningful negotiations with the West, he makes statements to this end followed by "good will" gestures. Naturally, the West rejects these moves. On the next step, the Khomeinists claim that they "want peace" while Westerners are "warmongers", etc, etc.
On the Western side, the strategy of total cold war poses two major challenges:
-- Historical blackout. For neocons, Korean fight against the Japanese and civil war that followed is completely non-existent. Even less they want to remember any non-Israeli views of the post-WW2 period in the ME and 1948 events.
-- Irrelevant current news coverage. Each move is systematically taken out of context and heavily misrepresented.

What is to be done? All I can think about is quality historical and news analysis. Penetrating multiple layers of misrepresentation is not easy.

1. Spiegel. Michael Scott Moore. Denying the Holocaust for Political Advantage?: http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,390338,00.html

2. GU. Holocaust a myth, says Iranian president: http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1667355,00.html

3. GU. Jonathan Freedland. The sickness bequeathed by the west to the Muslim world: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,1666871,00.html

4. Ind. Angus McDowall, Anne Penketh. Iranian president repeats Holocaust denial: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article333236.ece

5. http://www.juancole.com

6. http://justworldnews.org/

7. http://inplainview.us.tt/newsWorldMEIran.htm http://inplainview.us.tt/newsWorldFE.htm
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. You know this could be a real problem.
Since the USSR imploded there has not been anyone that was really willing to step up and be the US enemy, to play the bad guy. Now this loon shows every sign of being willing to do that. We could get another war out of this after all, if Iran gets over-confident about it's position, because I'm fairly sure the guys running US foreign policy would just love another chance at "Victory", no matter how bad the odds.
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occuserpens Donating Member (836 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Not exactly
N.Koreans are playing their games for 50+ years and I can't imagine what can prevent them from doing this 50 years more. Now Iranians are joing this club.

From the other side, Russian anti-Communist revolution of 1991 is a happy end story only in neocons' wet dreams. Having learned from this historic lesson, others are very likely to decide that they don't need another 1991!
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