Israelis, Palestinians reach deal on Gaza....and experiment for DU.....

[pelsar]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/15/rice.mideast.ap/index.html

Israel and the Palestinian Authority agreed Tuesday .....blah blah blah (thats for the DU guidlines.

now for the jist of the matter and I ask/plead/request/ that we keep to the subject matter i am about to write about. This is about reality, about real pressures, real lives and real implications.

With access to Egypt and with the palestenains having the final say in matters the border is now out of israels hands. And for the record i hope the palestenains take advantage of it...

But lets just say, the egyptians dont do much about keeping extremists out (their border guards are not very dilligent -personal experience) and their weapons, the tunnel makers without the pressure of the IDF to destroy the houses above, expand their business...and lets just say gaza becomes not just an armed camp but keeps launching missles (katushas at ashdod?) and mortors on the near by kibbutzim....

israel in turn stops with the sonic booms and artillary in open fields and starts leveling those buildings that protect the launchers and their "civilians" with 1000lb bombs.....

what then?

i suspect one of the first posts will be something to the effect that the palestenains have every right to import weapons..thats fine, but do they have the right to launch attacks against israel?...and when the IAF responds to shut them down, that too is "israels right"...so where does that leave us?

and the question that also "begs to be asked and answered"...just because a "society" has the right to be free, does that mean that right should be given even if they society is not prepared for it....failed countries and societies abound.....and they only result in more misery. A failed democracy, a revolution that results in a dictatorship, does not get "another chance in 4 years"...it takes generations for the next "revolution' to risk it.....

so...as much as the opening is good in theory (and i am for it).....i am also not niave as to close my eyes and pretend that it may not lead to a more violence and the disintegration of the palestenians society in gaza (which would kind of negate "their freedoms") and which would be considered an "internal" matter leaving the palestenain citizen up the proverbial creek without a paddle"

[Tom Joad]

1. Occupation is illegal. If Israel wants peace, end the occupation.

The arrogance and racism behind your post is appalling.

Questioning if Palestinians are ready for freedom. That's absurd.

It would be like saying if the United States were ready for freedom in 1776. or had a right to fight for that freedom.

Let Israel take advantage of this time to adhere to international law, and end the occupation. Let the Palestinian refugees return to their homeland. Make the Holy Land a place for everyone to share. A state to be shared by all its citizens. Not a state for one ethnic group or another.

We ended apartheid in south africa, we can do the same here.

Let Justice flow like a river.

[pelsar]

2. justice as

in Iran today?..a democratic movement that has lead to one of the most fanatical facist regimes....second only to the revolution that the taliban carried out against their russian occupiers...(I'm sure the women "loved that result"..as they wore their burlap sacks)

does that mean you were pro taliban...and are pro iranian.....pro n. korea...

and you ignored the question...what if......

[manic expression]

25. Give me a break

Palestinians have the right to self-determination. Who are you to say what kind of government the Palestinians should have?

About Iran...if the US didn't screw Iran over and set up the Shah, then the revolution would never have happened. The Iranians wanted an elected government that represented them, but Uncle Sam wouldn't have any of it. A foreign power saying what's best for another people...remind you of someone?

I find it interesting that you ignore the fact that Israel is one of the most fascist regimes in the world today.

Oh, and look at this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x105286

Again, get a clue.

[eyl]

28. "Israel is one of the most fascist regimes in the world today"

Is it Israel or the world that you're so woefully ignorant about?

"About Iran...if the US didn't screw Iran over and set up the Shah, then the revolution would never have happened."

Wait..you object to the revolution? By what right? Who are you to say what government Iranians should have?

[pelsar]

29. eyl....

kind of orwellian speach/thought going on in the DU....

[madrchsod]

3. well said

but i doubt it will happen

[enigma000]

4. I think its a good question

I think you are asking: if the Palestinian people can't work together and put in place a functioning civil society, what then?

Call me an optimist but placing the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in a situation where they are no longer under occupation, and have control over their affairs may be the only solution. As an example, many on this board are concerned that Iraqi democracy won't work out - they will vote in the wrong people and disaster will ensue. But I'm not so sure. Granted politicians preaching "death to our enemies" are entertaining and all but most people, with a wife or husband, three kids and plans for the future, want their elected leaders to be focused on the mundane: garbage pickup, school textbooks, etc. I think the Palestinians, like the Iraqis, will demand competent leadership.

Failing that, if the Gaza Strip turns into one big terrorist camp, the Israelis and Egyptians, with the blessing of the Europeans, will just bomb the crap out of the place.

I hope that answered your question.

[pelsar]

5. the failed state....

problem with failed states is that they tend to "leak out"

http://www.ippu.purdue.edu/failed_states/index.cfm

and send both refugees and "global terrorist" outside their borders..and the list is growing.

far more than the 2nd poster, i hope they make it, but the "niavity of what was written, is just the sort of attitude that has to be avoided. Pretending that "freedom from occupation" automatically provides for a secure, free, future is not at all true

I guess i should list the independent "failed states" where "freedom flows"

on second thought i guess he means "freedom" translates to "internal matters" and none of anybodies business, especially not the intl press (algeria anybody?)

[enigma000]

6. I hear what you are saying

But what is the alternative? In the parliamentary elections in Egypt a few days ago saw the pro-jihad Muslim Brotherhood win a record number of seats. The Iranians elected this wannabe-genocidal president. Even now, the Bush administration is debating overthrowing Syria's Assad regime. You try democracy & regime change & ending occupation you get chaos and fascists.

Still, if nothing is done, what then? The seething masses of the middle east continue to be oppressed and the world sits by and does nothing? Has this approach worked? Its given us al-Quada, radical Islam, and an anti-Western population throughout the Arab World & beyond.

[pelsar]

7. i dont have an answer....

i'm just raising the question.....this conflict is by far has the most world intervention of any....so if one wants to "interfere" and if its even possible to, this would be the place. Perhaps its not even possible, as you mentioned, and "what ever develops.....be it a secular democracy or a failed fanatical facist state is what it will be...with its consequences.

[Tom Joad]

8. Extremism?

You mean like terrozing a civilian population to abandon their homes, as over 700,000 Palestinians were forced to do in 1948?

Or lets talk about the present. We could talk about the number of homes razed by the Cats (Tom Joad has a special place in his heart for people so displaced), the number of Olive trees uprooted, the number of students denied access to the University today, because they are not allowed to move by the Israeli army, or folks not allowed medical care because of lack of freedom of movement.

I am the one who is naive? Have you ever watched at an Israeli checkpoint and seen a grandmother being threatened with an M-16 because she wanted to walk home from her doctor's appointment?? (which, by the way, would have meant she would still not anywhere close to Israel...it had nothing to do with security, everything to do with humiliation)

Why don't the Israeli's continue to dismantle the settlements in the West Bank. Let them show their goodwill.

[pelsar]

9. your avoiding the question....

in answering yours about have i ever seen an israeli checkpoint....yes i have.(probably more than you)

but all of that is not the point.....go back to gaza.....and try to look into the future to some of the options

what are they?....and dont forget the experience of the taliban and iranians today...

and the good will?...that is precisly what gaza is all about..a place for the palestenians to make a society that works.

[manic expression]

26. Wow

Palestinians want their country and their future. I fail to see how Israel's occupation is protecting Palestinians from anything, much less themselves.

Gaza is very much under the grip of Israel. Don't fool yourself. The land, airspace, borders and coastlines (am I forgetting something?) are under Israel's control. Palestinians, once again, are denied justice by Israel.

[pelsar]

27. inocent or niave or just an "elitist?

so according to you then...i'm guessing and feel free to clarify..but you are then in full support of the present iranian govt, supported the taliban, support haitis govt, zimbabwas, sudans sysem, etc..since they are all products of "self determination."

[idontwantaname]

10. bottom line?...

it seems that israelis domestic policy (within greenline borders) is one of a western "democracy"... however the "interesting" part is how outside the 67 borders israel prefers (and justifies so) its behavior like a strong arm dictator... and NOT like a functioning democracy.

the checkpoint and assassinations... and prisoner roundups... these are behaviors one would expect a saddam-ish type person to do... or am i wrong???

[pelsar]

11. thats still not the point....

however the territories are not part of israel, the palestenainsare not citizens and the areas are under a military occupation using military laws...with an influence of democracy (sort of like eating "kosher pig"..

at any rate....the question is the future, not the present.... a far more complex question....and a far more difficult one for the ISM "society"....

how about this: had the ISM in gaza aiding, perhaps indirectly, in the establishment of a facist dicatorship in gaza, taliban style, through the independance of gaza palestine before the PA has established itself and was ready for self rule?.....just a question..... (this is assuming a failed gaza state...not that it will happen....none of us have any idea what will be...)

[idontwantaname]

12. hmm... ok.

so i think youre asking whether the ISM, by traveling to gaza and reporting the international human rights violations israel was committing, eventually led to gaza becoming a fascist state.

no.

i think peoples being removed from their homes, set up in refugee camps.. and then being terrorized by an army while hostile settlers look the little land/resources there was in gaza... factors such as these aided in any failed state which may occur.

[pelsar]

13. failed govts

failed states, where there is no security due to a dictatorship that cant run the economy...or a facist dictatorship as in the taliban, iran,...or a secular one as in, burma, haiti, sudan etc

all of them are horid places to live for any secular, civil rights minded person..all of them are the result of an "independance" that failed (as far as the type of person i mentioned)

what if gaza becomes one of these places?..all of them have refugees and internal terrorism.

however for many its "hands off, since its an internal matter....what then?

just having "independance" does not guarantee a freedom loving democracy.....i dont know the stats but i'm guessing the odds are against it...(but then the israeli/palestenian conflict is an "one of a kind)

getting rid of the occupation is only the beginning...and probably the simple part of it at that...what comes next?

[pelsar]

14. not so easy....

the question is....if the ISM had influence on the palestenains, and to bring about a palestenian state.....did they not have two responsabilities:

bring about the state, but also use their influence (if any...) ot educate about the democractic state?

what good is a palestenian state, if its a failure?

in our everyday lives, when we "cause something to happen, we are also responsable for its result. I should clarify myself, i am not saying the ISM is soley responsable, but i am saying there is some...otherwise the ISM becomes the "useful idiotes" that helped remove the settlers only to replace them thugs of a different uniform.

[idontwantaname]

15. remember the ISM is a palestinian led org. started only a few years ago

its really a very small org... but for some reason many think its something which it isnt.

trust me... ISM is nothing special...
the biggest threat ISM ever posed was to report the truth to what was happening.

[pelsar]

16. i m familiar with it....

(at first....military briefings-the complexity of the situation....+ my own readings)....the question is not the size, nor its origins...but the principle behind it

I would like to stay away (on this thread) from the actual conflict and play an "intellectual game".......

what are the consequences of the gaza withdrawl....this is the first time the palestenians have to take responability for their own society.....can they? will they? are they ready?.....

[pelsar]

19. question about morality.....

i understand why the ISMers go....as I thought about it, the ISM being a palestenian organization, organized by the palestenian elite (ruling class) to use foreigners to help remove the israeli occupiers, which are making life miserable for the palestenains....

now lets just say...that in place of the israeli occupiers, the palestenain elite takes over, (gaza) retains power in a dictatorship format and keeps the palestenian citizen lives just as miserable. (democracy is far more than mere voting)

wouldnt that make an "ISMer" feel used? since all they helped do is to replace one ruling foreign govt with an arabic speaking one, with the palestenain in the street, still living a life of misery under a new dictatorship?

Infact, now that the palestenain govt is in place....the ISMers are probably no longer welcome in gaza (cant find any info on this)....since palestenain civil rights were not part of the equation.....or if they were it doesnt include rights living under a palestenian govt

i would feel used if all i did was help remove one ruler and replace them with another dictatorship.

[idontwantaname]

20. accuracy.

hey pelsar
interesting deductions... however the palestinians who are part of ISM are not the ruling class type. ISM puts a lot of energy to helping farmers in small villages who are threatened by either the army, hostile settlers, or the wall. other points of focus are home demolitions, house invasions, and checkpoint monitoring.

it is funny you think ISM is responsible (at least partly) for israels withdrawal.

i am curious.. in military briefings how do they describe the ISM?

--------------
there is documented video of this event:
in 2002 a group of internationals (ISM, christian peacekeepers) were in bethlehem when the israeli army held it under siege and curfew. the group went out into the street and was met with a tank... which fired warning shots at the ground in front of them. a number of people received shrapnel wounds from this.
why would the tank fire at unarmed international civilians?
there was nobody else in the street and the people were clearly "white" foreigners.

[pelsar]

21. take the credit..

ISM was (is) part of a whole system that exposed much of the settlers and IDF doings in Gaza and in the west bank....Rachel who was killed, gave a lot of PR to the destruction being done....the ISM was part of the larger puzzel that put pressure on the israeli govt, exposed to the general public what was going on, which eventually led to the withdraw....so yes the ISM, in my eyes had an influence.

In the briefings we would get a description of the various groups that were in the area....some were considered passive some werent...the ISM in general was considered hostile, given that they supported the violence though they themselves declared they werent....that fine line is too easily crossed in the field and was, hence we were told to be very cautious of the ISM, as it was possible they would put themselves in the line of fire to protect whom they believed was an "innocent palestenian"....the ISM foreigners, not speaking arabic, not understanding the culture, the groups involved, the relationships would in reality would not always have a good idea of whom they may be protecting.....we were told not to shoot if an "international" was in danger of getting shot...only unless we felt our own lives were in immediate danger.

i could hardly comment on what the tank commander saw (dont make the mistake of thnking that one could know what they saw from a telescope viewer from the tank...if you've never been inside of one....you would be foolish to think you know).....shadows, sun, dust, pressures, past experiences all play a part....only the niave and innocent believe that a white flag, a symbol will protect them during a shooting war..and that everything is "clear"....it never is.

as far as the ISM...I understand very well the immediate goals...my interest was the larger picture if you will....the ISM foreign individuals were used by the palestenains because they were foreigners....and that use was agreed to by the ruling elite, hence from what i understand you guys werent bothered by the various jihadnikim even though your life styles, democratic ideals werent exaclty to the liking of many (here I'm getting in to a very murky area of extrapolation-feel free to correct me....), but you served a useful and idealistic purpose.....protecting the palestenains, making PR noise, and i do believe helping getting israel out of gaza (which i see as a positive step)

in that respect, i am be abhorred by the ISM official stance that the palestenains may use by "any means necessary " (since it means killing me and my family)..but protecting the palestenians from the settlers is a good thing...so i too find a use for the foreigners. (life is complicated out here)

[idontwantaname]

22. interesting...

yes. i personally believe a goal of ISM is/was to see the end of israeli military occupation... though more through influencing our respective gov'ts and its citizens.

i still doubt the role of palestinian "ruling elite" as being associated with ISM... in fact i know many ISM folks would rather meet and work with the every day palestinian. many ISM folks relate to a non-hierarchical structure of organization... and in theory and application oppose class structures. i believe there were some times where intls felt they were being "used" or paraded around by some... and i do not doubt this concern was voiced and issues resolved... but 90% of the work was meeting everyday folks in jenin... balata... getting to know people in hebron or visiting some small farm village which had complaints of hostile settlers.

it is that 10% of the time during curfew or an invasion... or in front of the bulldozer... at a protest... helping remove personal belongings minutes before a house demolition... removing roadblocks between a village and its farmland... documenting/witnessing assaults on unarmed innocent palestinians... or hearing crazy religious rhetoric from a settler that stick in peoples minds. we chose to participate in these events because we KNEW that if there was no int'l presence than innocent people could die. the IDF would exercise maximum force regardless of outcome.

i also "know" that some ISM folks felt strongly against any forms of violence... at one point i believe someone took rocks away from the shebab during a demonstration. this action did not sit well with some...

let me know if this makes sense... because as i reread it, it sounds a bit confusing.

[pelsar]

23. not at all confusing...

and its because i too have been there, and know very well that all the various different situations require different reactions from those involved. Sometimes people react more violently, other times great acts of human kindness happen..and still others things happen that we simply cant believe....hard to believe our eyes....some sort of sad comedy

all the different participants have so many different reactions that only the niave or those with "agendas" place all the characters in their most simplistic forms.

so what you wrote was very clear.....and typical of the conflict.

[barb162]

17. Depending on how the TVs are placed ....

"Israel will receive live transmissions via closed circuit TV"

I think if throught the TVs it can be shown on film that bad stuff is being brought in (such as possible armaments), Israel needs to immediately go the UN and start raising hell.

I think EU monitors made more sense from a security standpoint if they were physically at the border, to be able to stop something suspicious. I haven't seen nor looked yet at what the final ( the really final) plan has for proximity of the EU monitors to the actual crossing gates.

[pelsar]

18. PA has the last word...

from what i understand....israel may complain...but the PA has the final decision. Which means its decisions will be politically based. The EU wont have the intelligence that israel as far as "whos who" in the murky world of jihadnikim.

Anyway the point may be a mute, since the tunnel builders (of which its quite the profession down there) will be having a field day if there are strong border controls.

anyway, its the PA/Egyptian border.....for them to decide what to do with it

[occuserpens]

24. .

.