Josh Sugarman on Breivek's Mini-14

[Atypical Liberal]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/norway-shooters-mini-14-t_b_911155.html

"Long notes, "The Mini-14's inexpensive price has made it the 'poor man's' assault rifle in many ways." Its price, he states, is "often only half that commanded by many military-style rifles on the market." "

The going price for Mini-14's is about $650.

Long concludes, "The Mini-14 is a handy, affordable rifle that is capable of being modified for combat or used as a sporter."

Kind of like just about any rifle.

"Breivik clearly understood that the firepower of militarized weapons is "just as efficient" as explosives:"

Or even more so. Breivik killed far more with his firearms than he did with explosives. And look at the people who attacked those hotels in India not so long ago.

"Breivik repeatedly noted that fully automatic (machine gun) fire capability is not necessary for armed terror attacks"

That's right. Just about any firearm will do.

"Breivik understood and advised others to make full use of high-capacity ammunition magazines"

If he didn't have high-capacity magazines, he would have simply carried more lower-capacity magazines. No one could stop him either way, until people with guns showed up.

"Ruger's Mini-14 Tactical Rifle is a version of the well-established Mini-14 incorporating many of the assault rifle features that end users have being applying themselves for decades, this time straight from the factory."


"Being seen over the years as a sort of 'poor man's assault rifle' the Mini-14 has spawned a huge array of after-market parts that may be applied to make it more 'assault rifle-y.' Recently Sturm, Ruger & Co. finally decided to get into the act themselves by producing their Mini-14 Tactical Rifles."

Of course, none of these accessories change the functionality of the way the firearm shoots bullets in the slightest.

The Mini-14 is simply one of many semi-automatic rifles that shoot a .223 cartridge.


What this kind of article shows is that it doesn't matter what kind of weapon bad people use, it will always be the weapon that is bad. Breivik could have used a 1898 bolt-action Mauser and Sugarman would be against those.

[RSillsbee]

1. That's right. Just about any firearm will do.

especially if only the criminal has one.

[Upton]

2. Sugarman is like a lot of antis..

oh, they've dialed down their rhetoric some over the years, but make no mistake about it..their ultimate goal is to repeal the 2nd Amendment..

[RSillsbee]

3. You missed one

•Breivik also understood that an assault rifle like the Ruger could defeat police body armor: "As for assault rifle ammunition, standard ammo will easily penetrate the most commonly worn protective vests...."

Any centerfire rifle cartridge "will easily penetrate the most commonly worn protective vests...."

[Euromutt]

10. Yes, a rifle round *will* penetrate armor *not designed* to stop a rifle round

I always love it how prohibitionists try to insinuate that the fact that level IIIA body armor won't stop rifle rounds is because rifles are designed to penetrate that level of armor; as opposed to the level IIIA rating meaning the armor isn't designed to stop rifle rounds. The NIJ's ratings for body armor are publicly available, and anyone who puts on body armor of a level not designed to stop rifle rounds has no business being surprised that it doesn't.

[krispos42]

18. A link to the NIJ ratings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_armor#Performance_standards


To summerize:

• Level I: .22LR LRN fired from a handgun; .380ACP FMJ
  
• Level IIA: Level I threats, plus: 9x19mm NATO-spec FMJ; .40 S&W FMJ (when the vest is new); .45ACP GI-spec FMJ
  
• Level II: Level I and IIA threats, plus: 9mm Luger +P FMJ; .357 Magnum JSP
  
• Level IIIA: Level I, IIA, and II threats, plus: .357 Sig FMJ, .44 Magnum SJHP
  
• Level III: Level I, IIA, II, and IIIA, plus: 7.62x51mm NATO-spec FMJ
  
• Level IV: Level I, IIA, II, IIIA, and III, plus: .30-06 GI-spec AP

Looks like you'll need a Level III to really stop a .223 round.



ETA:

LRN = Lead round nose
FMJ = Full metal jacket, aka "hardball" aka "ball"
JSP = Jacketed soft point
SJSP = Semi-jacketed soft point
AP = Armor-piercing

[ileus]

4. resale is the only reason I'm holding on to my Mini...

I figure to ditch it on the next AWB scare.

[RSillsbee]

9. I bought a Mini in July of '08 for 475$ used

Buy January of '09 they were going for 1500.00$ in the classifieds

[Atypical Liberal]

5. One of these is just like the other

Which one is scarier?

[ileus]

15. Mines a 2004 SS....I wish it had better finish on the wood.

Maybe I'll refinish it...


oh back to your question...Why the one with all those mean ole rails and black plastic, the extra 10 rounds in woodys magazine are pretty handy for target shooting.

[Lurks Often]

6. Josh Sugarman is a clueless idiot.

besides if he hates guns so much why does he have an FFL in his name with VPC's address in Washington DC.

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/fflSearch.do

1-54-XXX-XX-XX-00725

[Euromutt]

11. I disagree

He's not clueless; he's dishonest. He picks his words with deliberate intent to mislead.

[PavePusher]

34. Not an idiot...

a mean-spirited, vindictive, mendacious, self-absorbed, manipulative, fuckwad asshole.

I think that covers it.

[-..__...]

7. B.A. Baracus is not amused...

Even he would pity the fools at the VPC for presenting this aberration as a typical Mini-14...

[DonP]

8. I wonder if the Fudds are paying attention to this now?

A few years ago, in the midst of the discussion on renewing the AWB, a few of us pointed out to the Fudd contingent that eventually Sugarmann and his meat puppets in the Brady group would come after their hunting rifles, but first they'd describe them as "Sniper Styled High Powered Rifles". The Fudd's pretty much laughed us all off as having too vivid an imagination..

Now the Ruger Mini, which was carefully left out of the AWB discussion because it didn't "look scary", even though it functioned exactly the same as every other semi auto, is the latest villain. Probably just another fund raising push for Brady, but worth noting.

If we ignore these people, start to treat them as irrelevant to the issue, they will eventually come after grandpa's side by side as well as your "High powered sniper rifle" hunters.

They wont go away or leave firearms and owners alone until the very last Joyce Foundation check clears. At some point even the idealogues on the board of the Joyce Foundation have to look and see what their support is achieving and start to think about putting the money they give Brady/Sugarmann to an urban reading program or an endowment for clinics.

[benEzra]

12. Sugarmann's beloved 1994 "assault weapon" fraud explicitly labeled the mini-14

as "particularly suitable for sporting purposes," as long as it didn't have an eeebill folding stock. The basic design goes back to the 1920's, to the prototypes of the M1 Garand.

Here's a typical mini-14, and its much bigger .30-06 ancestor:

Mini-14



M1 Garand:

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. +1. Thank you for illustrating Sugarmann's mendacity.

We must never let up those who employ such chicanery.

[krispos42]

19. Yeah, but the Garand fires old-fashioned ammo.

I mean, jeez, it's like 105 years old. How powerful can it be, really? SURELY it can't be as powerful as the modern combat cartridge, the active-duty rifle ammunition of the US Army... right?





























:sarcasm: for the ballistically impaired. :-)

[DissedByBush]

20. I got to fire an M1 for the first time some months ago

I was shooting my 94 year-old Enfield (.303 British) and swapped with an M1 owner for a few shots.

HOLY CRAP that thing kicks! And that's in comparison to an Enfield.

Yeah, a .223 Mini-14 is quite wimpy in comparison.

[krispos42]

25. It wakes you up.

Not as much as a magnum 15-pellet 00-buck 12-gauge shell, though.

:hurts:

[-..__...]

23. Anoter tid-bit of Mini-14 trivia.

"No honest man needs more than 10 rounds in any gun."

"I never meant for simple civilians to have my 20 or 30 round magazines or my folding stock."

"I see nothing wrong with waiting periods."

-- William Batterman Ruger, Senior

As is common with any controversial issue, there's a great deal of misinformation floating about, and misperceptions held by those affected by the issue.

Nowhere is this truer than with 1994's infamous "Crime Bill," the second significant piece of federal firearms legislation passed that year. Aside from the "assault weapons" (whatever those are) provisions, a significant portion of that bill dealt with magazines (or "clips" by the unknowing, the lazy or the sloppy thinkers)… very simply, if one is a civilian (non-military, non-law enforcement), one may not legally possess any "high capacity ammunition feeding device" of more than ten rounds manufactured after that date. Centerfire, rimfire… makes no difference.

Snip 8<-----

Bill Ruger's Dirty Little Secret

William Batterman Ruger, Senior is not a stupid man… he might be somewhat naïve politically, but he's no dummy! Figuring that unless he took action, the jig was soon-to-be-up for a number of firearms, including his Mini-14 and perhaps even his extraordinarily popular Model 10/22 rimfire repeater. Unfortunately the lessons of Munich and Neville Chamberlain seemed to have been lost on the senior Ruger in the post-Stockton madness, for his creative approach was to toss the high capacity magazine "baby from the sleigh" in the desperate hope of appeasing the pursuing legislative wolves. Reasoning that the public was probably more concerned about the high volume of fire which Purdy was able to generate, than the speed at which he delivered same, Papa Bill proposed that Congress enact legislation limiting the capacity of magazines to fifteen5 (15!) rounds.

Sturm, Ruger & Company logo He had his Sturm, Ruger braintrust prepare model legislation centered around this high capacity magazine prohibition with the fervent hope that "the guns saved." He even consulted with some others about this approach, including Neal Knox who attempted to dissuade him in the strongest possible terms (for Neal, anyway) from his foolhardy initiative. Papa Bill slept on Knox' counsel… and then on 30 March 1989 had his proposed legislation delivered to 535 members of the House and the Senate. A portion of his document read:

The best way to address the firepower concern is therefore not to try to outlaw or license many millions of older and perfectly legitimate firearms (which would be a licensing effort of staggering proportions) but to prohibit the possession of high capacity magazines. By a simple, complete, and unequivocal ban on large capacity magazines, all the difficulty of defining "assault rifles" and "semi-automatic rifles" is eliminated. The large capacity magazine itself, separate or attached to the firearm, becomes the prohibited item. A single amendment to Federal firearms laws could prohibit their possession or sale and would effectively implement these objectives.

Snip 8<-----

In his final syndicated column of 1989, Neal Knox discussed the implications of Bill Ruger's actions the previous Spring, and addressed some remarks aimed at him by Steve Sanetti, Sturm, Ruger's general counsel and the only person other than Papa Bill authorized to issue statements for the company:

Steve Sanetti says "I know better" than to ascribe Bill Ruger's magazine ban proposal to business considerations. Maybe so; I don't think Bill is by any means "anti-gun," nor do I think he really wants a ban on either guns or magazines (after all, he got his start as a machine gun designer).

But I do think Bill Ruger is pushing a plan that would protect his business while affecting only his competitors, and I think he's damaging the efforts of those of us attempting to stop all proposed bans. Further, I don't think his actions on this issue, and other issues in the past, allows him to be described as "the strongest supporter of our Constitutional right to keep and bear arms."

What I know is that about 9 p.m. the night before Bill sent a letter to certain members of Congress calling for a ban on high-capacity magazines he called me, wanting me to push such a ban. His opening words, after citing the many federal, state and local bills to ban detachable magazine semi-autos, were "I want to save our little gun" -- which he later defined as the Mini-14 and the Mini-30. I'm not ascribing Bill's motives as "expedient from a business standpoint;" Bill did.

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/papabill.html

So, for the sake of a mediocre firearm, a once well respected name in the firearms community, stabbed us all in the back for "our his little gun".

Fortunately since Bill Sr's demise, saner and more astute managers have allowed production, and sales, of greater than 10 round magazines to "simple civilians".

[PavePusher]

33. Had Mr. Ruger not acted as he did, his company...

might well be two or three times larger than it is now.

Do make some fine products, and it seems that modern ingenuity has crept back into their offices over the last few years

[SteveM]

14. Where are the comments on the Sugarman/HuffPo screed? nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. He was slagged for that column

[PavePusher]

32. "every" column.

It's not like he ever prized journalistic integrity...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Markedly similar to another Huffpo bubba, Hoyt Hilsman

Who also seems like more like a bad fiction writer than anything else

[aikoaiko]

16. Bwahaha. That piece has been on HuffPo for 6 days and has only 5 facebook "likes".

They've got no one. At this point more RKBA advocates probably read his pieces just to keep tabs than gun control supporters.

If it weren't for a few zealous foundations supplying funds, they would fold.

In a weird way, I enjoy watching them piss into the wind over and over.

edited to add: But up to 8 Fb "shares"

[Euromutt]

24. Lucky for them Facebook hasn't gotten round to installing a "Dislike" button

Just imagine...

[DissedByBush]

17. I have seen accessories that change the way a Mini-14 shoots

Here's a loaded one:



What's different?

That's a Mini-14 with a sub-MOA accurization kit. Kinda pricey though, $1,700.

It has the same functionality as Breivik's gun, but it's a whole lot deadlier because it is much, much more accurate.

But the "assault weapon" crowd probably wouldn't give it a second look because it doesn't have any of those mean-looking "assault weapon" accessories.

[ileus]

21. very nice...

[PavePusher]

29. "...but it's a whole lot deadlier because it is much, much more accurate."

Not really, unless you are shooting at 2-300 meters or more. Mini-14's aren't nearly as inaccurate as the gossip about them would have you believe.

[oneshooter]

30. The early ones with the thin barrel walked shots all over the place.

The newer ones have a stiffer barrel, are bedded and free floated from the factory, and the sights are tighter. They are more accurate, 2-3" at 100 vs 3-5" of the older ones.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

31. You are correct, I should have been more specific. Thanks for clarifying. n/t

[benEzra]

36. Yeah, mine was about 5.5 MOA, which was pretty pitiful compared to an AR or bolt-action.

Mine was a 188-series Ranch Rifle manufactured circa 1989. The newer 580 series and up rifles are generally 2-3 MOA by comparison, still not stellar, but sufficient for its niche as a small, lightweight carbine.

[Abin Sur]

37. 5.5 MOA? That's...awful!

That's actually worse than I can normally shoot with iron sights, which is saying something...

[benEzra]

38. I think mine was worse than average. But yeah, I tried premium and match ammo

from 40 to 69 grains, a couple of different scopes, different stocks, etc. It shot 62gr M855 about as well as anything. I think a gas bushing kit, cut-and-crown, and a heavy flash suppressor might have helped things greatly, but it wasn't a financial priority at the time. And mine was waaaay overgassed; it would throw brass 30+ feet with some loads.

The last straw for me was when I couldn't zero a 2.5x *shotgun* scope to my satisfaction, because the groups weren't precise enough for a good read on the POI. So I sold it and used the money to buy an accurate AR.

[DissedByBush]

41. What you can't hit, you can't kill

More accurate does mean more deadly.

But the point was that all the stuff the gun grabbers point to doesn't make a gun any more deadly.

The stuff they never notice, match-grade barrels and such, is what can actually make a gun more deadly.

[Francis Marion]

22. Sad crime against humanity

After misusing fertilizer, diesel fuel, an automobile, etcetera.

A psycho had access to firearms and other everyday objects.

Josh missed a point: "DuPont advertises fertilizer as the poor farmer's crop multiplier..."

The problem here is with the person who willfully chose to hurt people.

I'd like to know who read the psycho's prose and didn't call him on it or inform the cops- did this really happen with zero foreshadowing?

This guy was a supposed Christian- how about 'Thou shalt not murder' -?

But there's perhaps no point in trying to comprehend the wreckage which is a crazy person's consciousness.



Not wanting to waste a crisis, gun grabbers now demonize Tier II of semiautomatic firearms (and standard capacity magazines) after the legislatively successful demonization of so-called "assault weapons" (Tier I) of the late 80s. Nevermind that fact that machine guns- REAL assault weapons- are already very heavily controlled by law and rarely used illegally.

What, then, are Tier II Bad Guns? Most likely, they will be every other semiautomatic rifle that escaped the Tier I divide-and-conquer definition a generation ago.

There is NO meaningful difference in means of operation of the (now) scary, quasi-military Mini 14 compared to a semiautomatic AK: gas from the fired cartridge impells a mechanism that ejects the fired casing, and a compressed spring loads in a new cartridge. That's it- just harvesting a bit of chemical and spring energy; no evil voodoo curse, no devil incantation.

No firearms technology poses a logical 'stopping point' for the grabbers, beyond which they will cease to ban your access. They just don't want you armed. They want to strip you of rights by legislative fiat, just like Jim Crow days. Nuts to that.

[Remmah2]

26. I love reading Sugarman's editorials.

They're so full of technical errors it makes one laugh. The guy should write fiction. To think some people see him as a pillar of the anti-gun crowd. People believe him too..........

[oneshooter]

28. "The guy should write fiction" Who is saying that he doesn't?

[benEzra]

39. That name "Duncan Long" rung a bell...

That takes me waaaay back. Long wrote a lot of small, quickly-written paperback books in the mid-1980s about this or that firearm. I bought his book Mini-14: The Plinker, Hunter, Assault,* and Everything Else Rifle in the late '80s, and Long recycled that info in the book Sugarmann is citing. That's why the description of the mini's niche, and the semiauto rifle market in general, is so dated; that description was written in fricking 1986, before SKS's and civilian AK's were common, and many years before Sugarmann and Feinstein would together make the AR-15 platform the top-selling civilian centerfire rifle in the United States.

Today, there are 30 or 40 companies making AR's and prices start around $599, but back then only one or two companies made them and they were insanely expensive (IIRC close to $1K back when you could get a decent new car for $10k). So the very retro mini-14 was indeed a cheaper path to a .223 carbine than an AR was *at that time*. I paid $450 plus tax for my mini in 1989, if I remember correctly, and that was below MSRP I think.

Once the SKS floodgates opened in the late 1980s/early 1990s, though, the $79 SKS took whatever place the mini had as a blue-collar intermediate-caliber semiauto. You could literally buy four or five nice SKS's for the price of a mini, making the concept of the mini as a "poor man's rifle" pretty laughable by that time, IMO.


*Yes, Long is using the term correctly, as Long's book covers the select-fire AC-556 assault rifle (of "A-Team" fame) in addition to the civilian mini's.

[Euromutt]

40. Teensy niggle re: the A-Team

The A-Team didn't actually use AC-556s; they used the factory-standard semi-auto Mini-14 GB-F ("Government Barrel, Folding stock") in stainless steel, with the sound of automatic fire added in post-production. This was done to side-step possible hassles concerning state and local laws governing machine guns when filming on location.