The cbs gunwalker thread. I'm watching now.

[beevul]

http://www.tvpc.com/Channel.php?ChannelID=2737


Watched here live.


Damning stuff.


Really damning stuff.


Its going to go viral.

[MyrnaLoy]

1. Have fun with that

I'm watching working class families loose benefits all across the nation. We all have priorities i guess.

[Glassunion]

3. Priorities...

Different TV channels?

Priority 1 CNN
Priority 2 CBS

End result for both = Still sitting on our asses watching TV.

[MyrnaLoy]

7. Not me

:) I'm providing a ride for as many people as I can fit in my truck for a road trip to Wisconsin. It's a long drive for us.

[Glassunion]

9. Then how?

Are you watching working class families loose benefits all across the nation?

EDIT: Good luck in Wisconsin!!!! :toast:

[MyrnaLoy]

11. Well

I have a TV, I have a computer, I have a radio and I am on a major University campus.

[Glassunion]

12. With the exception of the radio...

I would not recommend using any of those while you are driving.

Give em HELL!!!

[MyrnaLoy]

14. LOL noooo

well maybe those in the back seat

[GreenStormCloud]

34. Most people don't care about the union.

Face it. Union membership is lower now than it was during the Great Depression. Private sector workers are only 6.9% unionized. Public sector workers are 36.2% unionized. Management broke the back of the private sector unions long ago, they are basically powerless now. Wisconsin is going to be the last stand of the public sector unions. After Wisconsin breaks them look for a tidal wave of similar legislation across the nation in other states.

[MyrnaLoy]

49. are you

happy about that?

[GreenStormCloud]

54. No .Do you blame the weatherman when he predicts bad weather? N/T

[baldguy]

2. And yet, whenever anyone posts news here about US guns used in Mexican crimes

gun's rights supporters claim it's bullshit.

[slackmaster]

5. That is actually not true. Everyone acknowledges that weapons from the US are used in Mexican crime

The real issue is how much of a problem there is with weapons getting illegally diverted from the US sporting firearm market to people who can't legally own them, and then illegally exported to Mexico. The answer usually turns out to be that it's a lot less of a problem than sensationalistic news stories would have you believe.

[MyrnaLoy]

10. is that

based on a search of the Gun Forum archive because I actually see something different. I see many posts saying very few guns from the US make their way to Mexico, in fact it seems most of the Gun Forum members say they are from further south. These are older posts so I wonder if the members now see that guns from the US have been used in Mexico and are willing to pile on this ATF story to deflect what others have known for a while.

[Katya Mullethov]

15. Did you find the pretty chica with the air cooled Browning ?

How many 40 mil rounds did you spot ? How many RPG7's ? RPG rounds ? How many frags ?

Approximations only , I dont expect any rain man action tonight .

[MyrnaLoy]

18. what?

[Katya Mullethov]

23. Here

Quite the little coquette isnt she ? Other than her smirk , or that something needs to be done , what does this photograph from the "US Guns Fuel" series impart to you ?
http://borderviolenceanalysis.typepad.com/.a/6a011279457f1228a401156f276fc6970c-pi

[Glassunion]

29. Am I the only one that noticed...

That the pile of "ammunition" on the table is mostly spent casings.

Oh... And she is wearing purple pants. PURPLE PANTS!!! OMFG!!!

Also, there is a gun or something on the table... BUT PURPLE F'ING PANTS!!!

Also, in front of the PURPLE PANTS is a gun or something, but in front of the gun in front of the PURPLE PANTS!!! is a grenade launcher or something... PURPLE PANTS!!!! PURPLE PANTS!!!

[rl6214]

37. HEY, I HAD PURPLE PANTS

in the 70s

[Glassunion]

48. I don't like painting with a broad brush... But,,,

[Euromutt]

41. And Sellier & Bellot boxes

Which, for all we can tell, might be empty.

And it's actually the plaid jacket that caught my eye and made me wonder at which Oxfam store she picked that up, because I haven't seen one of those since the early 1980s or so.

[one-eyed fat man]

50. Browning machine guns

That 1919 Browning machine gun might have come from the US, too. Then again, as one of the most successful designs of the 20th century, it was used and copies (licensed or not) were produced by many countries, including:

* Australia
* Canada
* Chile
* Costa Rica
* Denmark
* Dominican Republic
* El Salvador
* France
* Greece
* Guatemala
* Haiti
* India
* Ireland
* Israel
* Italy
* South Korea
* Liberia
* Mexico
* Panama
* Philippines
* Portugal
* Rhodesia
* South Africa
* Republic of China
* Thailand
* Turkey
* United Kingdom
* United States
* Uruguay
* Vietnam

Doubtless, some guns produced in the United States find their way to Mexico. You could say with almost virtual impunity any a Colt revolver seized by the Mexicans came from Hartford, Connecticut.

There might be a few Colts that were built in Patterson, New Jersey, but General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna likely brought those back with him from the Alamo.

The MILITARY grade weapons being seized are not coming from the US civilian market. US arms are diverted from Foreign Military Sales, that is, weapons the Pentagon sold to El Salvador, Guatemala, Mexico and other Latin and Central American governments. The Com-bloc weapons are coming from China, North Korea and eastern Europe. While some low level crooks might smuggle some guns from the US, the cartels are not reduced to buying guns at retail over the counter any more than Al Capone went to Canada buying legal whiskey a bottle at a time.

[Katya Mullethov]

68. Gatos got your tongue ?

Been a lot of that going around lately . Cats running around with tongues . The Mexican and US officials are blaming it on a flood of Finnish Fillet knives that are fueling a rash of typical dick in mouth of skinned decapitated head war atrocities .

[slackmaster]

16. A lot of the weapons that get paraded around could not possibly have ever been been US sporting arms

Things like military M16 and Kalashnikov selective-fire assault rifles, machine guns, and hand grenades.

Certainly some US sporting arms do get illegally exported to Mexico. My point is that nobody on this forum has seriously claimed that it doesn't happen, which is what baldguy's post implies.

[notesdev]

19. But why would anyone go through the trouble

if you're a smuggling cartel in northern Mexico, why go through the trouble for US made semi-auto (at best) weapons when you can get fully automatic ones in your own black markets?

Their narco-cartel problems have nothing to do with US guns, and has everything to do with US drug policy. Without prohibition laws there is no business for these cartels to buy guns to protect.

[NewMoonTherian]

21. What kind of guns are they?

Are the guns that would be civilian-legal in the States?

[rl6214]

22. I think what most here have said

is that none of the FULL AUTO weapons have come from the US but instead came from the Mexican army or central america.

[guruoo]

28. ROTFL!

:rofl:

[rl6214]

38. and u find that funny

why?

[AtheistCrusader]

52. yes, because you can get a machine gun at wal-mart in the US.

LOL indeed.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. We dispute the obviously false '90%' number.

And we dispute the 'trophy' photos that the Mexican Army and their drug enforcement entity post, that clearly show a predominance of weapons that simply aren't available for sale to civilians in the US.

I don't think anyone ever said "NO" weapons are taken to Mexico from the US illegally.
We also generally point out the fallacy of the media claim the 'mexican police and army are outgunned' by weapons brought in from the US.

[Atypical Liberal]

67. I'm one of those posters

Now recently there have been news reports of large caches of US-made firearms being intercepted going into Mexico, so I am prepared to be wrong in this case.

But I still find it absurd that Mexican drug cartels would buy semi-automatic rifles at US retail prices when they almost certainly have access to real, fully-automatic military hardware on the global market.

These are companies that are building submarines to traffic their drugs. These are multi-national, multi-billion-dollar industries. It is hard to believe that they would bother with crippled US firearms.

[guruoo]

13. "sporting firearm market" nt

[slackmaster]

17. Yes, as distinct from the international black and gray markets in military arms

Some of which were made in the USA, but have never been sold in gun stores, at gun shows, or otherwise been made legally available to people other than military and law enforcement.

HTH

[baldguy]

20. Really?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x370996

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3433499

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x301893

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x206160

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x237731

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x351499

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x336706

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x338803

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x353356

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4552241

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x367303

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2847653

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x375357

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5875449

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x353288

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x296397

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3269416

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3932016

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5220419

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x217091

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x317519

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1596943

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3285137

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4122031

and on, and on, and on...

[rl6214]

24. AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Just clicking on the first half dozen of those links are distortions, misrepresentations, lies and just flat out bullshit.

[X_Digger]

25. derp derp derp..

Did you actually read the contents of the threads you posted?

*snort*

Ummm...automatic AK-47's (i.e., real ones, it sounds like) aren't available in the United States...

Edited on Mon Oct-29-07 09:39 AM by benEzra
outside of police/military duty, unless you first obtain Federal authorization (BATFE Form 4, a 6-month process), the gun must be purchased from a specially licensed NFA Title 2/Class III dealer, must be registered with the BATFE, and only those registered with the Federal government prior to 1986 can be sold to non-police/military. Expect to pay about $15,000 for a civilian-transferable AK-47 in the U.S., and the BATFE gets to inspect your paperwork once a year.

If the guns used in this murder were actual automatic AK-47's and not non-automatic civilian lookalikes, then they "undoubtedly" came from CENTRAL AMERICA, not the USA. Actual AK-47's, like all automatic weapons, are VERY tightly controlled here in the United States, but Central America is awash with them due to decades of Cold War proxy conflicts.

[guruoo]

30. Googling "ak47 for sale" ...

http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1592&bih=607&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=ak47+for+sale&aq=5&aqi=g7g-s1g2&aql=&oq=ak47

By just scanning Goolge images, (first link I clicked) I found a nice Romainian model model AK shown for sale in
the Pensacola Fishing Forum.

http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/attachments/f68/7354d1278212464t-romaniam-ak47-sale-ak-001-jpg

http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f68/romaniam-ak47-sale-58671/

[beevul]

31. Almost certainly a semi-auto. N/T

[guruoo]

35. And how long does it take to convert it to full auto?

[beevul]

36. Legally or illegally?

Legally or illegally?


Also, properly or improperly?



Done improperly, you have a rifle that, once the trigger is pulled, continues to shoot - slam firing - even if the trigger is let up, until its out of ammunition.

[guruoo]

40. Within context of the OP,the legality as an issue would be irrelevant

I think you know what I'm talking about. :eyes:

[beevul]

42. Within the context of the OP, an NFA fullauto sear would also be irrelevant.

That IS what you have a picture of there.

You also didn't touch the "properly or improperly" angle.

[Ken_Fish]

45. Less time than it takes to get a container full

of ordinance lost, past customs, and in a warehouse with cash.

[rl6214]

46. Contrary to popular myth

you can't easily convert weapons such as the one pictured to full auto, if at all. Some guns, like ar15s, when you try to convert to full auto you just ruin them because they are manufactured that if you take away the metal needed to fit the full auto parts into the receiver, you ruin the gun.

[one-eyed fat man]

60. Calling bullshit

What you have pictured is an open bolt conversion for a semi-auto Uzi. It may or may not be legal, depending on paperwork. Regardless, a one pound bolt will work for an open bolt blowback operated submachinegun in 9mm.

If you think that will work on an AK I'd pay money to see you fire it once.

Neither you nor the gun are likely to survive the experience intact. You'll look awfully funny with the bolt in the middle of your eye socket.

[beevul]

62. My bad...

I misidentified it as an nfa autosear.

I stand corrected.

Note: I know you weren't addressing me, but it is what it is.

[one-eyed fat man]

63. More you don't know

Here's the picture from the same ad you didn't use.
http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/attachments/f68/7355d1278212464t-romaniam-ak47-sale-ak-002-jpg

The gun is evidently a Romanian WASR which was originally imported with a single stack 10 round magazine and the magazine well was not capable of accepting "regular" double stack AK magazines.

The first clue is the lack of the characteristic "dimples" in the side of the receiver of the normal AK receiver. The dimples support the magazine and keep it from wobbling. One the single stack guns the magazine well is opened up and shims are added to inside of the receiver to allow it to accept military surplus AK magazines. If you look closely in the picture from the add you can see the shiny bare metal from the Dremel. In a decent conversion the bare metal would have touched up with cold blue and the shims spot-welded in. In a garage hack they are likely held in with JB Weld. Depending on when and where that Romanian was converted to accept regular AK mags if may have been a felony. Depending on the parts that are in it it might still not be "922r compliant." Something it would be wise for you to understand before you plunk down cash.



The picture below is of a real Russian AKM. The dimples above the magazine are quite evident. The AK-47 had a milled receiver and was replaced by the modernized version with a stamped receiver decades ago, but such distinctions matter only to serious students of small arms technology. If you really were familiar with these weapons or spent any time in war zones facing them you would note that the safety lever has a center position, marked with the Cyrillic characters "AB" which designate full auto. This AK is set for semi-automatic fire with the safety lever in the full down position.



Here is another picture of a real select-fire AK, a Chinese one this time and you will clearly see the three pins needed for the full-auto fire control components.

[slackmaster]

26. I'm going to take a wild guess that none of those links substantiate your claim

Nuance and attention to detail aren't important if all you want to do is bash people.

[Katya Mullethov]

27. But that was quite a lot of copy pasting

A good bit of effort I'd say .

[AtheistCrusader]

53. Could you POSSIBLY fail any harder?

[baldguy]

56. Only if I commented about the content of a link without reading it.

Which is what you some of the others here have apparently done.

Each one of those links is a post with a news story about US guns being used in Mexican crimes. And each subsequent thread has a reply - or several - which questions the validity of the story.

It doesn't matter to those who question the story what news source it came from, or how much supporting evidence there was, or the veracity of witnesses. What matters to them is whether the story meets their preconceived notion of "guns is good, gun laws is bad" and who posted it.

Fail is as fail does.

[slackmaster]

58. Amazingly, in every case those who questioned the validity of the reports were correct

The reports were exaggerated in every case. Some of them went so far as to suggest that items like hand grenades and machine guns had been diverted from the US civilian sporting arms market and smuggled into Mexico.

Your links disproved your own point, in spades.

[AtheistCrusader]

64. There is certainly someone here who didn't read the links.

Hint: Its you.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

65. Bookmarked...

as a shining example of the anti-rights crowd's misinformation, clulessness, and idiocy.

[notesdev]

6. Apparently it is

Pretty bullshit having a US government agency being the source of these guns, creating a pretext to expand its activities, budget, and influence. Heads need to roll on this and the people in charge need to go to jail.

[jpak]

44. Word!

:toast:

[guruoo]

4. I missed it, so I selected rebroadcast on CBS west, here...

http://www.tvpc.com/Channel.php?ChannelID=2686

on edit: Can't get this one to work

[beevul]

8. I so love that site. N/T

[GreenStormCloud]

32. The video flashed a picture of a belt-fed machinegun.

You can't buy those in a gun store in the U.S.

[Katya Mullethov]

33. Of course you can

They just cost a "little bit" more than the free ones that get stolen from work .

[Euromutt]

39. Beevul, fairness compels me to ask you

Since I've bitched at jpak for starting a separate thread for every fluff piece in which a handful of students somewhere in Texas said they were uncomfortable about permitting concealed carry on campus, I have to ask you whether it's really necessary for you to start separate threads for every single piece of information about thus Gunrunner thing. I mean, this is a thread about how you're watching a piece of TV about which you already started an earlier thread.

[beevul]

43. Its not my usual thing...

I just thought I'd try it and see what its like.

That, and I thought I'd see how that particular shoe fits on um...other feet.

[jpak]

47. SPAM spam Spam SPAM...SPAM spam Spam SPAM

:rofl:

[GreenStormCloud]

55. Your status a the champion at that is unchallenged. N/T

[one-eyed fat man]

57. It took long enough to go mainstream

Contrary to their usual anti-gun position, CBS hit a home run on this one. The ATF ‘spin doctors’ will be getting a lot of overtime pay covering this up! We’ll probably see more lies, the guilty promoted, the innocent punished (maybe even fired – and then rehired), and it will be business as usual with ATF.

Remember Waco? 1994. Two ATF supervisory agents, Phillip J. Chojnacki and Charles D. Sarabyn, who were suspended for their roles in leading the botched raid and despite a Treasury Department report of gross negligence, were reinstated in December, 1994 with full back pay and benefits (with a demotion), and had the incident removed from their personnel files.

More “business as usual”.

[Bold Lib]

59. I missed it. Anyone know where I can catch it online?

[beevul]

61. Its here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x382820

[Atypical Liberal]

66. Here is another link

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7357550n&tag=related;photovideo