Citizens advised to arm themselves ...

[spin]

Tight budgets and fewer cops equal rising crime rate
July 23, 2010

— Plunging government revenues may have the unintended consequence – so far as tax-and-spend (and spend some more) public officials are concerned – of reminding people that we are ultimately responsible for our own safety.

The pie plate is empty and inevitable cutbacks in important public services, including law enforcement, are on the horizon. It is already happening in Oakland, Calif., where the police chief has announced that officers will no longer respond to a broad list of crimes if department layoffs go as planned.

What’s a citizen to do? Perhaps they will follow the advice of Ashtabula County, Ohio, Judge Alfred Mackey and Hudspeth County, Texas, Sheriff Arvin West. In the past few months, both have advised their neighbors to arm themselves.emphasis added

Said the judge, according to a report on WKYC in April, “Be very careful, be vigilant, get in touch with your neighbors, because we’re going to have to look after each other.”

***snip***

There is a saying in the firearms community: “When seconds count, police are minutes away.” This is about to change in Oakland and elsewhere because police agencies are financially strapped and face reductions in staffs and services.

Rural agencies may be hit hardest. When seconds count, police may be hours away, if they come at all. Faced with that potential, citizens have two choices: Submit to victimization or fight back.

Nobody is advocating “vigilantism,” which is what gun prohibitionists claim when private citizens arm themselves for personal protection.

Nobody is “taking the law in their own hands.” Armed citizens who carry guns or keep them in their homes or businesses are acting within existing laws, and thanks to the Supreme Court’s recent McDonald ruling, they now have the full force of the Second Amendment behind them.

Some communities may be in for a rough ride, and people who heretofore have been indifferent about their personal safety may find themselves grateful we have a right to keep and bear arms.

Instead of anarchy, that right may ensure order and civility.
http://tribune-democrat.com/editorials/x871674500/Tight-budgets-and-fewer-cops-equal-rising-crime-rate

Ashtabula judge says people may want to arm themselves since budget cuts have slashed law enforcement
Published: Monday, April 19, 2010, 4:00 AM Updated: Monday, April 19, 2010, 9:26 AM


Debbie White, who owns a tree farm in rural Ashtabula County, says she keeps her double-barrel shotgun for protection, given that the county's Sheriff's Office is stretched thin.

ASHTABULA, Ohio -- Budget cuts have whacked Ashtabula County so hard that just one sheriff's cruiser now patrols 720 square miles, raising a troubling question: Who will protect residents of this sprawling, rural Northeast Ohio county when sheriff's deputies are miles away?

A county judge has a suggestion: Concerned people may want to arm themselves.

"We are living in a large county, and you cannot count on the availability of your sheriff to come to your home if you are in danger in a prompt manner," Ashtabula County Common Pleas Judge Alfred Mackey said after his comments were broadcast in a television news interview.

The judge said he's not advocating a Wild West mentality and stressed that anyone who wants a gun's protection also has a responsibility to keep it safe and to know how to use it.

Such comments, coming from a judge, touched off a round of debates over guns and safety in a county with a proud self-reliant streak and a sense that something is terribly wrong when government can't adequately keep its residents safe from the bad guys.

Some people applauded Mackey for bravely facing the truth that deputies could be at a violent scene in one corner of Ohio's largest county when an intruder breaks into a farmhouse more than 40 minutes away.

Others found his remarks disconcerting -- either because they don't believe guns are a good answer, they worry that ill-prepared people will use them or they fear all the talk about reduced safety forces will draw more criminals to their rural towns.

But in a county where firearms and hunting are part of the fabric of life, many are already armed. And they have a warning for any criminal who thinks it's open season on Ashtabula County:


"Just because there's not a squad car rolling up and down the street doesn't mean we're not protected," said John Ginnard, a gun owner and owner of e-comm Cafe in the city of Ashtabula.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/ashtabula_judge_says_people_ma.html

Coming soon to a town, city or county near you.

[Possumpoint]

1. Already Has

Police here tend to be crime reporters. They may catch them after compiling enough reports. Armed citizens have the opportunity to stop the crime when it happens.

[Statistical]

2. New York City had no modern Police Department until 1844.

Prior to that it was a hundred or so city marshals and couple dozen constables.

The role of the Police is not to defend people. Never has been, never will. Individuals are responsible for their own defense. The role of Police is to capture suspects, and gather evidence for DA for successful prosecution.

Slowly starting in the early 1900s we began to abdicate this responsibility to the Police forces and as such the Police State grew however this type of "protection" is both illusionary and very very very expensive.

The reality is even with no budget cuts:
The Police have no duty to protect.

[safeinOhio]

21. Don't they take an oath to

protect and defend?

[Glassunion]

22. No. Each academy/department is different.

You have to search out each academy/police/sherrif's department to see what their oath is. Most I have seen have nothing as far as "protecting" or "defending".

I........................DO SWEAR - THAT - I WILL WELL AND TRULY SERVE - OUR SOVEREIGN COUNTRY AND STATE - AS A POLICE OFFICER WITHOUT FAVOR OR AFFECTION - MALICE OR ILL-WILL - UNTIL I AM LEGALLY DISCHARGED - THAT I WILL SEE AND CAUSE OUR COMMUNITYS PEACE TO BE KEPT AND PRESERVED - AND THAT - I WILL PREVENT TO THE BEST OF MY POWER - ALL OFFENSES AGAINST THAT PEACE - AND THAT - WHILE I CONTINUE TO BE A POLICE OFFICER - I WILL - TO THE BEST OF MY SKILL AND KNOWLEDGE - DISCHARGE ALL THE DUTIES THEREOF - FAITHFULLY - ACCORDING TO LAW. SO HELP ME GOD. (Sample Oath)

The following Law Enforcement Oath of Honor is recommended as by the International Association of Chiefs of Police...
On my honor,
I will never betray my badge1,
my integrity, my character,
or the public trust.
I will always have
the courage to hold myself
and others accountable for our actions.
I will always uphold the constitution2
my community3 and the agency I serve.

You may be thinking about the statement "To protect and serve". I have not seen that as part of an officer's oath anywhere. I have seen in painted on the sides of their vehicles and on their office windows. Even if they did take that as an oath, have no legal obligation to do it.

[GreenStormCloud]

3. That is a good judge with common sense. N/T

[Pholus]

4. Redundant statement. The guy was pro-gun.

Call me when you disagree with a guy who wants everyone to gun up.

See, I know a few people who I'd describe as having common sense that carry guns.
I also know a few people who I'd describe as being ignorant twits that carry guns.

I see no correlation between common sense and being pro gun. Unlike you, apparently.

Anyway, thanks for the lesson. When I decide to become a judge I'll run on a platform of:

1) Guns for everyone with no restraint
2) Decisions will be made in favor of the party who pays me the largest bribe.

Thanks for your endorsement in advance.

[Statistical]

5. The whole "everyone" canard.

"Call me when you disagree with a guy who wants everyone to gun up"

Please show me quote where either the judge or the poster wanted everyone to gun up.

I'll wait.

"1) Guns for everyone with no restraint"
Who do you think supports this position? I mean in the real world not the alternate reality in your mind. Please provide me a single cite from anyone anywhere supporting this.

[jeepnstein]

6. That's this week's talking point, I suppose.

I've heard it so much lately it's not even funny anymore. I guess that's all they've got these days.

[Statistical]

8. I need to make a canard smiley so I can just respond with that. n/t

[Pholus]

13. Actually, why don't you just make a "Can you cite that" smiley

since it represents the vast majority of your responses to posts that don't agree with you.... ;)

That and taking a small point (like what you call the "everyone" canard) and trying to use it as a complete negation of a counterargument.

Why don't you find me a citation that the judge's quote excluded anyone living in his jurisdiction and hence the word "everyone" was not appropriate in the context of describing the quote. :P

[spin]

9. People who oppose RKBA are becoming an endangered species...

In U.S., Record-Low Support for Stricter Gun Laws
October 9, 2009

PRINCETON, NJ -- Gallup finds a new low of 44% of Americans saying the laws covering firearm sales should be made more strict. That is down 5 points in the last year and 34 points from the high of 78% recorded the first time the question was asked, in 1990.








http://www.gallup.com/poll/123596/in-u.s.-record-low-support-stricter-gun-laws.aspx

[Pholus]

12. Actually, "everyone" seems to be applicable here.

Sorry, I had to work. Hope you didn't WAIT too long. RTFA.

Asked what residents should do for protection, Common Pleas Judge Alfred Mackey replied, " Arm themselves," and added, "We're going to have to look after each other."

Hmmm, so gun up, right? I suppose you object to the word everyone, but I see no qualifiers excluding anyone who is a resident in his juristiction from his advice so it wasn't much of a stretch to go to everyone. But it is a common tactic here to try to pick one word and go all extreme to diffuse the thrust of what you didn't want to hear so I forgive you on it.

Searched around the web a bit. This quote is the only thing the judge has other than a handful of trial reports indicating the trial was in his courtroom. His opinions and history are NOT widely available for review. So, is he a good judge or did he just say something you wanted to hear?

You guys sit in this forum and congratulate yourselves on what steely-eyed realists you all are. In the end, you're just a bunch of fanboyz just like the Apple crowd -- cherry picking any little item that supports your worldview (gun saves shop owner from robbery) and trying to demolish with rhetorical sledgehammers anything that causes you mental discomfort (kid shoots self with parents gun, whacko goes on rampage with guns). The plural of anecdote is not data but you guys want that to be a one-way street.

It took just ONE semi-positive quote about guns to get old Greenie gushing that Judge Mackey was a:
"Good judge with a lot of common sense"

And, btw, thanks for demanding a citation on SARCASM. The point, since it went zooming over you at 3200 feet/second, was that you cannot describe someone as being good at their job or having great personal wisdom by a SINGLE sentence about a topic you personally can't stop obsessing about. See the first sentence was a statement similar to the one that got the glowing accolades (made slightly silly for effect) and the second sentence was trying to illustrate that there is a lot more depth to a person then their opinion on guns.

Would I be a good judge with my platform? Not in my book.

You agree, right?

I'll wait while you weigh the merits of my two platform positions. Get back to me on this.

[spin]

17. Further info on what Judge Mackey said ...

Judge Alfred Mackey of Ashtabula County Common Pleas Court advised residents Friday to be vigilant and arm themselves because the number of deputies has been cut about in half because of a tight budget. He also urged neighbors to organize anti-crime block watch groups.

“They have to be law-abiding, and if they are not familiar with firearms they need to take a safety course so they are not a threat to their family and friends and themselves,” Mackey said Friday.

Mackey, whose comments were first broadcast Thursday by WKYC-TV in Cleveland, was expressing concerns with budget cuts that have trimmed the sheriff’s department from 112 to 49 deputies in the county, which is Ohio’s largest by land area.

***snip***

With deputies assigned to transport prisoners and serve warrants, only one radio car is assigned to patrol the county of 720 square miles, excluding municipalities with police departments. The sheriff’s patrol area covers most of the county, the judge said Friday.

Mackey said the response to his comments has been positive in the mostly rural county between Cleveland and Erie, Pa.

“People in this county are hunters,” said Mackey, who grew up on a farm with rifles and still owns firearms. “People have familiarity with firearms.”

***snip***

The jail in the county of about 100,000 people has held as many as 140 prisoners, but the number has dipped to about 30 because of reductions in the guard staff. About 700 people are on a waiting list to serve time in the jail.

Ohio has had a concealed handgun law for five years, and from October to December the Ashtabula County sheriff issued 54 licenses. Twenty-eight licenses were renewed.
http://www.ohiofreepress.com/general/2010/cuts-ohio-judge-tells-citizens-carry-guns/

Obviously, The judge was not saying that "everybody" should run out and "arm up" with firearms. You will note that he said,

“They have to be law-abiding, and if they are not familiar with firearms they need to take a safety course so they are not a threat to their family and friends and themselves,” Mackey said Friday.

I grew up in Ashtabula County and I will agree with the judge that many residents are familiar with firearms as hunting is very common in that area of Ohio. Just about everybody I knew had a shotgun or a rifle in the house.

My father was opposed to firearms and we only had a small .22 cal S&W Ladysmith revolver in the home hidden in a drawer in my parents bedroom. Of course, I found it and occasionally played with it when my parents weren't around. My father wisely had removed the firing pin rendering the firearm harmless, but I didn't know this. My mother was fond of this revolver as she had used it once in Pennsylvania for self defense. While walking home from work after getting off a bus in a rural area she was rushed by an individual who had been waiting in some bushes. She drew the firearm from her purse and fired two shots over his head. He fled.

My father died and my mother remarried. My step father had two shotguns in the house for self defense. I was old enough to avoid playing with these weapons.


While you make a good point that it is impossible to know from the internet just how smart or honest this judge is, and to make a statement that he is wise based on one comment that drew national attention is foolish. However the comment that honest residents especially in the rural areas need to arm up is indeed, WISE.

I assume that you will disagree. If you do please make some suggestions on what people who live in a remote area of that county should do if they find themselves victims of a home invasion.


What should a concerned judge say when he realizes that only "only one radio car is assigned to patrol the county of 720 square miles" with the exceptions of the small cities with their own police departments. New York city has an area of 368 sq. mi. and the entire Metropolitan area (excluding inland water) is 1,148 sq. mi. Consider the fact that the county has a waiting list of 700 people who are waiting to serve their sentences with only 30 people in a jail that can hold 140 (if funds were available).

Law enforcement in the rural areas is virtually nonexistent if an emergency occurs. The one radio car may arrive to set up a crime scene long after the incident is over.

I suppose your smart judge would caution the citizens about the dangers of owning firearms for self defense and advise against it. He might say, "the chances of anything bad happening at YOUR home is extremely small, so just don't worry. Everything will be fine. If someone does try to break into your home, just call the police and hide. We will come eventually. You can always pray while you wait."

Self defense has been a right for centuries. Do you seriously believe that a family who lives perhaps a quarter of a mile or more from the nearest neighbor in a county with only one radio car should be denied the right to own firearms?

What would YOU advise a family who lives in that situation to do? Please take the time to answer.

You also stated:

"You guys sit in this forum and congratulate yourselves on what steely-eyed realists you all are. In the end, you're just a bunch of fanboyz just like the Apple crowd -- cherry picking any little item that supports your worldview (gun saves shop owner from robbery) and trying to demolish with rhetorical sledgehammers anything that causes you mental discomfort (kid shoots self with parents gun, whacko goes on rampage with guns). The plural of anecdote is not data but you guys want that to be a one-way street."

While it is true that often those who favor RKBA do indeed post stories that detail incidents where firearms were used responsibly in self defense it merely counters the posts such as "(kid shoots self with parents gun, whacko goes on rampage with guns)". Why is it unfair for the RKBA crowd to post their anecdotes while those who oppose RKBA can post their anecdotes? As far as statistical data we can call up plenty from reliable sources such as the Dept of Justice to support our case. For example we often post this graph showing serious violent crime.



http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=31 (Please note the source.)

The drop in the graph occurred at the same time that "shall issue" concealed carry swept across our nation.



Still most pro RKBA posters do not attribute the drop in crime to the fact that many people can now carry concealed. We just point out that there was no return to the "Wild West" in states that allow concealed carry. We also often say that while more guns and more concealed carry of firearms does not necessarily result in less crime (as there are many factors), it definitely does not lead to more crime.


I took the time to reply to you as you requested, have the same courtesy to reply to my comments. I look forward to your reply and further debate.

[spin]

7. There are also 5 judges on the Supreme Court that are in favor of RKBA ...

You miss the main point. Because of the declining economy many counties in our country face dramatic cut backs in law enforcement.

Ashtabula County is the largest county by area in the state of Ohio. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, the county has a total area of 1,368 square miles (3,544 km²).702 square miles (1,819 km²) of it is land and 666 square miles (1,725 km²) of it (48.67%) is water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtabula_County,_Ohio


I grew up in Ashtabula County and there are a lot of very remote farmhouses. It's also part of the snow belt of Lake Erie which can hinder police response in the winter.

The advise to own firearms for self defense is solid. It's great to live way out in the middle of nowhere, but you have to be prepared.

[PavePusher]

10. Can you build a bigger straw-man?

They're more fun to burn down when they're bigger....

[Pholus]

14. I dunno, can you guys get any more silly in your criteria for being a good judge?

I mean, really, a judge is good in his job because he told the locals to arm themselves? Is that good solid reasoning to you? I thought you had the monopoly on common sense and you're agreeing that a judge's credentials are defined ONLY by a single statement to the citizenry about the need to arm themselves?

P'shaw. I thought you all were only swayed by good solid evidence like the statistical studies the NRA and their friends publish instead of those greatly flawed, biased and thoroughly unscientific trashy studies done by the handgun prevention people who only did it because they are overly delusional and foolish.

[GreenStormCloud]

15. Your criticisms are valid. My comment did amount to cheerleading.

The judge said something that I like and I got a bit broadbrush in my applause. Given the nature of the internet I should have been more precise.

[PavePusher]

16. Well, let's see here...

1. Constitutional? Check.

2. Fits the laws? Check.

3. Fits the circumstances? Check.

4. Promoting self-sufficiency and helping your neighbors and resisting criminals? Check.

Looks like "good solid reasoning" and "common sense" to me.

I make no claims about anything else the judge may or may not have done/accomplished. My apologies if I seemed to imply otherwise.

[PavePusher]

27. Well? n/t

[SteveM]

25. "Guns for everyone:" Classic sign your argument is lost. In advance. nt

[jody]

11. Given the ubiquitous nature of cell phones and known cell phone towers it's an easy task to use a

911 center to push an emergency alert to all cell-phone users when a crime is reported in a known location.

Every citizen alerted as a minimum can watch for possible fleeing citizens and notify police.

Self-defense is a personal responsibility in a state of nature but in a society, self-defense is shared with other citizens.

[spin]

18. While that might work in urban areas ...

be aware that as far as cell phone coverage, the U.S. is a third world nation.

I live in a small town in North Florida and cell phone coverage is spotty at the best and often there is no signal.

While urban areas often have good coverage, the remote rural areas often do not!

[jody]

19. Come on now, Lake City is not small, Benton is small. I grew up 70 miles north of you on a farm

10 miles from Lakeland, Georgia, another small town.

[spin]

20. Actually ...

When I set up my profile I did live in Lake City.

I moved to a much smaller town north of Lake City but still in Florida, which is VERY religious and VERY conservative. As new people in such a small town we attract far more attention then we would in Lake City, much of it negative. Rumors are a way of life in small towns and some people have spread falsehoods such as we run a house of prostitution and are dealing drugs.

That is absolutely hilarious as we had a local police office rooming with us for over a year and are friends with almost all of the local police. Still our theme song is "Somebody's Watching Me" by Rockwell. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvAYIJSSZY. When the officer started living with us, my daughter was often asked why there was always police cars in our yard.

I would prefer to remain anonymous as much as possible. My daughter did attract the attentions of a stalker who is surprisingly computer literate. He spent several weekends in jail when the local judge finally got really pissed at the fact that he refused to obey a restraining order. The threat of a year in jail if he bothered my daughter again has finally seemed to stop his interest. (My daughter does have a carry permit and was willing to use her firearm if truly necessary if he had attacked her. He knew this fact, and perhaps that's why he merely was a simple but constant pain in the ass.)

I doubt if anyone in this small town ever reads DU, but they would if they knew I post here.

If you really want to know where I live, PM me.

[Katya Mullethov]

23. Not third world , frickin huge

It only took three minutes from the moment the alarm sounded @ a one Mr Harry Beckwiths gun shop until the time the police arrived . But so much transpired in the intervening 2 minutes after initial contact . And of course it is the same old song . More pleading
////



Harry Beckwith fired two magazines of 15 rounds each from the Colt .223 rifle, and two full mags and part of a third from the S & W submachine gun. Only one bullet caused death.

What leaves Harry Beckwith most unhappy today is that these perpetrators, initially charged with felony murder, were allowed to plead down to attempted burglary. They turned out to range in age from 16 to 21.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Harry+Beckwith+incident&aq=&aqi=g-m1&aql=&oq=Harry+Beckwith+incident&gs_rfai=&fp=6fb550a2476ba2a

[SteveM]

26. Passed Beckwith's store last month. Raised in Hogtown.

[SteveM]

24. Ah, yes. She has the legendary Stevens 311D. So do I.

It's cheap. It's safe. It lasts. It gets doubles on teals and dove. It causes the thug to lose continence.

[old mark]

28. Our township PD moved to the far end - the more suburban end- of town

a few years ago, and are seldom seen around here any more unless shots are fired. (Sometimes not even then.)

Everyone on the block has at least one dog, and I have no doubt there are a few more guns than mine as well.

The old saying..."When seconds count, the police are only 20 minutes away..." is more true than ever, and they always were more dedicated to protecting property than stopping violent crime.

Make your choice and let others make their own.

mark

[Hoopla Phil]

29. A number of years ago Corpus Christi TX needed a new police station.

They did something clever. The city purchased property in the old down town area. A blighted, high crime area with very cheep property. They built a very nice new facility and began to do walking patrols in the downtown area. Guess what happened?