The End is Near! The New York Times Reports a Defensive Gun Use!

[TPaine7]

*TPaine picks himself up off of the floor and begins posting*

Updated, 6:55 p.m. | A 72-year-old Harlem business owner used a shotgun to blast four men who tried to rob his restaurant-supply business Thursday afternoon, killing two and sending two others to the hospital with gunshot wounds, the New York City police said.

The business, the Kaplan Brothers Blue Flame Corporation, at 523 West 125th Street, near Amsterdam Avenue, sells commercial gas and electric ranges, as well as parts and repairs.

The police said that the four would-be robbers entered the business and announced that they were robbing it. One of them took out a Glock 9-mm pistol and started to pistol-whip a 33-year-old employee inside the store. The owner then took out a shotgun and opened fire, striking the four men.

Public records identify the owner as Charles J. Augusto Jr., 72.

Source: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/business-owner-fires-on-4-robbers-killing-2-police-say/?hp

Police don't think the Winchester 12-gauge pump shotgun with a pistol grip handle was registered. I'm sure they plan to prosecute him to the fullest possible extent of the law, make an example. We can't have "vigilantes" running loose. It's not as if he were a solid citizen with a few problems (like an armed robber, for example, who should obviously be shown leniency).

The scary thing is, if the New York Times--the last bastion of "civilization"--starts showing a less biased picture of the world, how will gun control fanaticism survive? Facts are extremely dangerous things.

[TPaine7]

1. The business was near Churches and an Afterschool Program!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gasp!

A detail I missed on my first pass--near Mr. Augusto's business are two churches and the Our Children’s Foundation, an afterschool program.

This is an outrage! Far better this vigilante thug and his employees be subjected to the tender mercies of armed thugs than the that A LOADED SHOTGUN be kept near TWO CHURCHES and OUR PRECIOUS CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:sarcasm:

[krispos42]

2. Unregistered gun, huh?

Well I'm sure glad to see the system working, keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and all, and punishing the evildoers of society that try to hurt people. :eyes:

[burrfoot]

3. Wish there was a little more info...

I used to live in upstate NY, but NYC has it's own crap-ass gun laws, so here's a question- does a pistol grip shotgun have to be registered in NYC? Is it legal to own there?

If it is legal, and the media is reporting it as "unregistered" simply because the guy bought it from a private seller, than that smacks of intentional misinformation.

If they aren't legal in NYC, though- I think this guy has to be treated like anyone else who breaks a firearm law.

Now don't get me wrong- I'm glad that this guy was able to protect himself and his staff. I also think the gun laws in NYC are completely ridiculous.

That being said- anyone owning a gun has the responsibility to know and abide by all of the laws that may apply to them. Not doing so gives every gun owner who does jump through the hoops and follow the rules look bad and hurts the rkba effort in general.

:shrug:

[Statistical]

4. In NYC all weapons must be registered and all owners licensed.

The system is not "shall issue" so you must provide a reason and are granted a permit at the whims of the court system.
The permit is $240 good for 3 years and often takes 6 to 9 months to obtain.

I agree that one should follow the law but IMHO the NYC system is not "equal protection under the law". I am not condoning the owner breaking the law but I hopefully someone sues NYC and they are forced to adopt a more uniform system.

[burrfoot]

19. I totally

agree that the NYC laws constitute a gigantic pile of draconian bullshit. It'd be great if this guy, or somebody else in the near future, were able to get help get them changed.

FWIW, I've a pistol grip shotgun (and a handful or two of other "evil" handguns, rifles, and shotguns) myself. I'm not against them at all.

I do believe, though, that a law being bullshit is not a reasonable excuse to break it. I don't know what the consequence should be; but I think it's important that we (the community of CCW holders/gun owners) are able to say that when one of us breaks the law, the legal consequence is applied.
The same way we tell those who disagree with us that they need to change the constitution; if we don't like a law we need to change it, not break it.

just my .02

[Jackson1999]

6. Yes, it is illegal

ANY gun needs to be registered in NYC (a guy in Brooklyn just bought a flintlock, which by law does not need to be registered. But that did not stop Bloomie from sending his goods to check the guy out).

The registration process is a joke. It takes 6 mo. and is designed to set you up to fail.

Not sure about the pistol grip, but I imagine that is illegal.

I would never shoot one of those pistol grip shotty's I wonder how Augusto's wrist is feeling today.

[PavePusher]

13. Depends on whether...

the "pistol-grip" was on the pump, part of the stock, or if it was a pistol-grip only stock. The first two are very comfortable, the latter, yeah, they hurt, but are great in space-limited applications.

[Euromutt]

16. Leads to a lot of misapprehensions, too

A lot of people's ideas concerning firearms laws come from watching Law & Order and similar shows set in NYC, which is what leads to a lot of questions along the lines of "don't you need a permit for that?"

[SteveM]

5. "...Blue Flame Corporation. Aptly named. (nt)

[Jackson1999]

7. I hope they do cite him for something

It would make a good test case for the applicability of Heller to NYC.

[spin]

8. K&R (n/t)

[JonQ]

9. Surely they made a long series of typos

They probably meant that the business owner pulled the gun and then had it immediately taken away from him by the robbers and was shot to death with his own weapon.

Guns cannot be used in self defense, if you try the criminal will always snatch it away from you before you notice and shoot you with it (those guys are like, crazy fast).

[Jackson1999]

11. And what about....

...the innocent bystanders that all got killed by him? Surly there must have been a lot of them.

Oh, and was this an 'assault weapon" shotgun?


One note, when the Times first reported the shooting, the caption under the photo said, "Police at the scene of a robbery and murder at 125th Street"

They changed it to "killings" later. Unfortunately, I did not get a screenshot.

[Hoopla Phil]

10. How much you want to bet

that the shop owner gets charged with the unregistered shotgun but the crook does not get charged for the unregistered pistol?

[spin]

12. True, the crook can argue that it's a tool of his trade. (n/t)

[JonQ]

14. Think he could write it off as a business expense?

They do have that line on your tax returns for declaring any illegal profits you've made that year.

[X_Digger]

17. Felons can't be forced to register their weapons..

.. because doing so would be self-incrimination. (see Haynes v US)

[Jackson1999]

15. Too bad he does not have a gun now...

If he registers one, he will have to wait 6-9 mo. I hope the Post or the News does a follow up story to see if gets another one.

Oh yeah, isn't this the same type of "assualt shotgun" that the Jersey cop wanted to ban?

[X_Digger]

18. Only if it has a collapsing stock & pistol grip..

.. cause those make them sooo much more deadly. *snort*