Robbery victim shoots suspect in Sarasota

[FLAprogressive]

SARASOTA, FL. - A juvenile attempting to rob a Sarasota man by gunpoint ends up being shot by the victim.

According to the Sarasota Police Department, officers responded to the 3900 block of N. Rilma Avenue early Thursday in reference to an armed robbery.

Once on scene it was determined that the victim, 54-year-old Elliot Firby, had been followed home from the area of University and U.S. 301 by a black full-sized pickup truck.

While Firby was attempting to unlock the fence surrounding his residence the pickup truck pulled in front of his driveway. As the pickup truck came to a stop a single black male exited the vehicle's passenger door armed with a shotgun. The black male ordered the victim to the ground.

As Firby was kneeling down with his hands over his head the suspect began fumbling with the shotgun. At this point Firby reached into his pocket retrieved his personal firearm and shot at the suspect twice. Firby has a valid concealed weapons permit.

http://www.mysuncoast.com/global/Story.asp?s=10516273

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. I'm glad it worked out well for him

and that the guy with the shotgun wasn't able to shoot back.

[Buzz Clik]

2. That is so awesome!

Don't you just love gun violence?

[bossy22]

9. its justifiable violence

our legal system differentiates between the two

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. Obviously the victim in this case didn't care for it, that's why he put a stop to it.

[SteveM]

3. "Fumbling with shotgun." The victim knew what was coming next, methinks (nt)

[proteus_lives]

19. That's right.

He was seconds away from death.

[TheWraith]

26. Maybe maybe not.

Most likely he recognized that the kid didn't know what the fuck he was doing with the gun, and was as likely to shoot him by accident as not.

[rfranklin]

4. Merits further investigation...the story sounds fishy...

Sounds like there was some other motive than robbery. Please post the follow up so we can draw some intelligent conclusions.

[onehandle]

5. In most gun related self-defense stories, the details are hearsay.

Only the two men know what really happened.

Not everyone is Dirty Harry until they recount their story after the fact.

But gun fetishists are ready to eat it up with no question. Funny that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. Three men, actually - the shooter, the kid, and the driver of the pickup.

But I gotta wonder what 'fumbling with the shotgun' would sound like to someone whose back it to the shotgun wielder, tipping him off that he had a chance to reach for his own weapon, twist around, and get two shots off without getting his spine blown in two.

And how did he know the driver was not similarly armed?

And 'dropped a t-shirt' after being shot? Why, with both hands on a shotgun, would he kid be holding a t-shirt? Why, upon being shot, would he drop the shirt rather than use it to stanch the wound?

I wonder if we will ever hear the kid's side of the story.

[bossy22]

8. hmm whats your point?

"But I gotta wonder what 'fumbling with the shotgun' would sound like to someone whose back it to the shotgun wielder, tipping him off that he had a chance to reach for his own weapon, twist around, and get two shots off without getting his spine blown in two."

who really knows, in many of those situations, people feel like they are dead anyway so might as well give it a try (self defense)

"And how did he know the driver was not similarly armed?"
why does that matter, the driver was in the car, and the only thing the victim noticed as dangerous was a man coming at him with a gun...and in a fight or flight situation the victim usually has tunnel vision.

"And 'dropped a t-shirt' after being shot? Why, with both hands on a shotgun, would he kid be holding a t-shirt? Why, upon being shot, would he drop the shirt rather than use it to stanch the wound?"
who said that he was holding the t-shirt with his hands? it could have been stuffed in his pocket partially hanging out (alot of the gangs in my area do something like that)

i dont know, but im not so quick to play monday morning quarter back. shoulda woulda coulda are not always the best ways to judge a self defense incident...thats why our legal system puts itself in the victims shoes and asks "if i was in that situation, would i consider the action taken by the victim to be reasonable in that situation" and not the post situation analysis (which many European countries do) If a man is walking up to you with a shotgun in a menacing manner, its quite reasonable to believe that this individual is wishing to do great bodily harm to you...you shouldnt have to play 20 questions before making a decision on whether to defend yourself

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. My point is that the story just doesn't seem to mesh.

Firby stopped to unlock the gate to his property when the pick-up stopped and the kid got out with a shotgun. The kid ordered him to his knees, and as he was on his knees, hands above his head, the kid started to 'fumble' with the shotgun (I misread the article before, it doesn't say that Firby had his back to the kid). As the kid was distracted, somehow, Firby pulled his own piece and shot him. The kid dropped the shotgun and t-shirt in Firby's yard, ran back to the pick-up and fled.

How did the kid drop the shotgun and t-shirt in Firby's yard if they were still outside the locked gate?

There is no mention that the kid made any demands - how do they know it was a robbery?

Maybe it is on the up and up, and just really piss-poor reporting, but I don't like it when I read something and have more questions than I have answers when I finish.

[burrfoot]

23. motive...

You've got a point about the motive- I don't think we've been given enough details (or enough are known) to be sure that it was "just" a robbery attempt. I'd hazard a guess that the police reported it that way because it's the most likely cause and because, all else being equal, it's probably better for them in a paper-work way to be able to fill that box in rather than leave it empty, i.e., report as a robbery because no signs point to anything else.

The fence, though- I've seen lots of houses in the transitional regions of town with chain link fences. These typically run about ten feet inside the property (at least on the road side); so that the homeowner has room to pull their car in off the road before they have to get out and unlock the gate. The homeowners "yard", however, ends at his property line (the road); so there is an unfenced portion, directly adjacent to the road, which is still correctly considered yard.

Back to the motive...it does strike me as odd that they'd follow him from an intersection back to his house...

Just found a follow up to the story, here: <http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20090611/BREAKING/906119985/-1/NEWSSITEMAP>

Looks like Mr. Elliot worked at a post office just a bit north of the intersection in question. His home is outside of but near to the highest crime area of the city (granted, it's Sarasota, so take that with a grain of salt if you, dear reader, live in a bigger city).
In the photo included in the follow up story of the teenager the caption notes that he attends Booker High School, which is within a couple of miles of where the event took place. It's not impossible that the kid knew him, or at least who he was.
Of course, that's not even necessary- at that time of the morning, the two kids are out in their truck and see a vehicle pass with only the driver in it, and they know that's a pretty quiet area... I won't pretend to read their minds, but if I was looking to commit a spur-of-the-moment robbery, I'd probably think those were pretty ideal conditions.
Also, the reported statement "give it up, sir....give it up" is enough to satisfy me that it was an attempted robbery.

I don't see anything suspicious here....but I'm up for discussion if anyone else does :)

[burrfoot]

27. d'oh!

Sorry all- just realized I've been referring to the victim as Mr. Elliot, when his name is in fact Elliot Firby. My bad x(

[burrfoot]

10. Couple of things....

Been a lurker, first post here at DU. I live in Sarasota, so this one caught my interest in particular.

The very valid point has already been made that we will never know "for sure" what happened here. That truth remains with the three men involved (I don't know the ages of the driver and shotgun-wielder, but personally if you're a male, you are driving a vehicle and putting a shotgun on someone, I'm going to treat you as a man- for better or worse).

However- 301 and University is not the most savory area of town. Anyone familiar with Sarasota please understand that this is not an opinion based on the demographics of newtown, but rather on the statistical incidence of crimes which occur in and around that area as compared to the rest of the town. (I don't have a stat to throw out there, but I've worked in the area and I am certain that it is the case. If anyone cries "do your homework to back that assertion up!" I will do my best to do so. I doubt that anyone who knows the area, however, will disagree).

Since we've got three people insinuating that the victim did something wrong, I'm going to engage in a little supposition in his favor here.

1) From any direction, "fumbling with a shotgun" could sound like the rack of the slide; or an attempted rack of the slide; or extending a collapsible stock (yes, it makes a sound as it pops into place); or he could have just heard the guy moving around. The victim may well not consciously know, now, what the sound was. The point is that he decided he had a chance to save his life, and he took it. On further reading, they don't even say that he heard it. Maybe he heard the guy step back, or click off the safety....maybe he saw the guy's shadow move. Maybe the guy bumped into the truck. There are loads of possibilities.

2) The male who is alleged to have been holding the gun on the victim got shot in the stomach. This is a pretty solid indicator that, when the victim got himself turned around or into whatever position he found to shoot from, the assailant was facing him. I would submit that someone standing over you with a shotgun shows their clear intent to cause serious injury or death, which is not only legal grounds but also pretty F*#@ing common sense cause to defend yourself with lethal force.

3) Who says he knew the driver wasn't similarly armed? What does that have to do with anything? You're right, in all probability he had no way of knowing. But if you believe you are going to be killed, I think you probably take the chance. (note, by "you" I mean those who believe in defending themselves, lethally if necessary, against an assailant with a shotgun is a valid course of action).

4) If the assailant was, for some reason, holding a t-shirt while holding the shotgun; and he had just been shot in the stomach, I think it's pretty reasonable to think that perhaps, from the shock of being in the stomach, he dropped EVERYTHING he was holding onto.
If you think he might hold onto whatever it is he was grasping when he was shot, I submit this alternative scenario- the guy had his t-shirt tucked into his pants, his pocket, wrapped around his head...whatever. It's Florida. It's summer (basically). It's pretty damn hot here. People go around with their shirts on their person but not actually wearing them all the time. So, perhaps in the interest of precision, "dropped" was the wrong word. It may have fallen off of him as he fled the scene, in any number of ways.

It's been implied that the victim turned himself into Dirty Harry in the retelling of the story. I don't read it that way. I see this as a guy who was probably scared shitless. He took a risk, turned around, and got a couple of shots off. Not due to his fricking Ninja powers, but because luck was with him and, if he's like many CCW holders, he puts in enough time with his weapon to be able to use it with some degree of skill- even when terrified.

Should ANYONE be excited that this happened? I don't think so. Glad that it worked out the way it did? Yes. Glad to live in a state that allows people to carry a handgun for self defense? You betcha.
Even if the assailant "deserved" to be shot- and personally I believe that he did- I'm not happy about it.

We do what we need to do in order to survive. Unfortunately, for this man, that meant shooting someone.

On a final note- ease up on "gun fetishist" thing. I know it is, strictly semantically, an arguable description of some gun owners. However, it seems pretty clear it's being used in a pejorative sense. Whatever your feelings on guns, don't make the mistake of thinking that we can all be painted with one stripe.

Yes, I'm a gun owner. Pistols, rifles, and shotguns. I have a CCW. I shoot on a weekly basis. Although I hope I'm never in a similar situation, I'd be proud to have responded as well as this man did. There's nothing incredible about me- why must there be anything incredible about him?
There is an implication that "gun fetishists" just assume he's telling the truth and don't question it. How is it any less biased than the assumption that there are some details out there we don't know about that will mean the victim did something wrong?
Neither camp knows the details, so let's please remember that it's speculation either way.

Sorry I rambled so long.

[X_Digger]

11. Welcome to DU and great first post! n/t

[burrfoot]

13. Thanks! n/t

[FLAprogressive]

14. I also live in the Sarasota area...I agree that the area in question is quite dangerous.

welcome to DU

[proteus_lives]

20. Great post!

Welcome to DU! My dad has a CCW and it has saved his life before.

:hi:

[Euromutt]

25. Persuasively argued

To your well argued points, Burrfoot, I might add that as someone who has comparatively recently acquired a pump-action shotgun, I still do a fair bit of fumbling myself. I'm familiar with handguns and military rifles, which means I'm used to any manual safety being under my thumb, as opposed to a cross-button at the front of the trigger guard. And I'm still getting used to that action release bar thing.

Strikes me that if the assailant in this incident wasn't overly familiar with the weapon, he'd do some fumbling readying it as well. But lack of proficiency with a firearm is no indicator of unwillingness to use it for ill. And in my book (and that of the American criminal justice system) when somebody comes at you with a deadly weapon, especially one as deadly as a shotgun, it's not an unreasonable assumption that he intends, or is prepared, to do you harm with it, and that you are fully justified in reacting accordingly.

If the guy with the shotgun was hit in the abdomen, I submit that he not only (as you rightly note, Burrfoot) would have been facing Mr. Firby, but that it supports Mr. Firby's claim that he was on his knees when he drew and fired.

Oh yeah, and before anyone goes claiming that the assailant might have just been a victim of society driven to desperation, bear in mind the guy rolled up in a "full-size pickup truck." Somebody had money to blow on that rig.

But I'll agree with you that I'm not rejoicing that the assailant died. Nevertheless, better him than Mr. Firby, frankly.

[gorfle]

6. Yet another example...

Yet another example where "the criminal had the drop on his victim" and the armed victim still came out on top.

[Endangered Specie]

12. mmm, sounds like he was pocket carrying...

pocket carrying a mouse gun is better than the .45 full size left in the safe.

[Statistical]

28. Exactly why I switched to a Ruger LCP.

I understand .380 Auto lacks substantial stopping power however especially in the summer I would find myself leaving a larger firearm home.

Ruger LCP packs 5 rounds of .380Auto into a frame that fits in my front pocket. I have a pocket holster that "prints" like a wallet.

Of course if I ever had to defense myself I am not firing once since I know how relatively weak the .380 Auto is.
When someone posts the story on DU likely I would be crucified for shooting multiple times.

"See he shot 4 times he was looking to kill someone"

[Hoopla Phil]

15. But how is this? I thought that the bad guy would simply take the gun away?!

[link0126]

17. If only he had a gernade...

[one-eyed fat man]

18. choices

Sounds like the victim came to the conclusion that no matter what he did the kid was gonna kill him.

You know, when the choices come down to "slim and none" folks will pick "slim" every time.

[proteus_lives]

21. I think this was more then a robbery.

He ordered him on the ground? Fumbled with the shotgun?

This may have been a abortive initiation killing.

Mr. Firby is a lucky man.

[burrfoot]

24. hmm...

An interesting possibility. Certainly not mutually exclusive with the reported 'attempted robbery'. Gang violence isn't huge here in Sarasota but I'd be lying if I said it didn't exist. Especially in that location.

I'm not an expert on the area, but I've spent a fair amount of time in the neighborhoods in question as a social worker (mainly with the kids). I can say, based on first hand experience, that a lot of good families live there and good kids do come out of the area- particularly sections like those where Mr. Ellis lives- but I'd be lying if I said there wasn't crime and violence as well.

If I can be allowed a tangent, I'd like to make two points: 1) I'm very sorry that this had to happen at all.
2) Granted that it did happen, I am cautiously hopeful that this type of response will become more common. Note: I am NOT saying that I want either robberies or shootings to increase. I am saying that when they DO happen, I hope that more people respond like this. Why? Because this is how you make areas safer. By not tolerating the crimes committed against you (or your neighbors). I'm not an idiot, or a shoot-em-up ninja type; I firmly believe that true and lasting success will only come when educational and economic concerns are addressed and there is no further need for such crime or such violent response to it. The goal here is, clearly, to help people make better lives for themselves so that they- and in turn, their children- do not turn to criminal activity in the first place- but I also firmly believe that until that goal is achieved, everyone should have the option of defending themselves if they so choose.

[Howzit]

29. Video of interview with Firby at police station

http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090611/VIDEO01/906115000/2055&template=video