Assault rifles: Don't let the facts get in the way

[MichaelHarris]

I'm doing freelance photojournalism work when a report goes out over the scanner. Seems some people are chasing someone with a shotgun somewhere, details sketchy. While waiting to see if I'm going to have a story to cover I decided to do some research. You know the one, it's where some say assault rifles are used in very few crimes. I'm sure you've heard it, it's the one where they say rifles are used in only 3% of crimes. Funny thing, they never show you 2008 and 2009 stats. Here's half of 2009. I left out some stories and I didn't have the desire to go all the way to January, actually it was a bit overwhelming. If these facts aren't enough just go to Google News, US, and assault rifle as the search. Make sure you have a lot of time and some food, it's going to take a while. 3 percent huh? Weird:

Feb 27, 2009 Man charged in assault rifle killings of 3 teens
Assault rifle recovered
Ybarra was arrested Tuesday after witnesses and residents came forward, police said in a statement. Police said shells from the shooting indicated an assault rifle was the murder weapon and that an assault rifle had been recovered./i] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29423140/

May 11, 2009KC man accused of pointing an assault rifle at his grandma
Craig D. Moss Jr. faces two charges of second-degree domestic assault for an incident on Friday, his 18th birthday. Police allege that Moss threatened his grandmother so she wouldn't call the police after he pointed the gun at another relative.
Assault Rifle

Ammo Found In Car Trunk
PHILADELPHIA - An assault rifle, with close to a hundred rounds of ammunition, and other evidence were found in the trunk of a parolee's car. http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/060309_Assault_Rifle__Ammo_Found_In_Trunk

Ark. suspect arrested by KPD
Officers found a loaded SKS 7.62mm assault rifle, a sawed-off 12-gauge shotgun and a 20-gauge shotgun in the car, according to the report. http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jun/04/ark-suspect-arrested-by-kpd/

Law Enforcement Breaks Up Hispanic Street Gang 22 handguns, 14 assault rifles, 16 shotguns and 17 other rifles, including a Barrett .50-caliber sniper rifle, are now out of the hands of criminals.
The removal of these weapons from the streets makes everyone safer and demonstrates that we will not tolerate criminals who provide the illegal firearms that reek so much havoc in our community," said Chief Eric Buske of the Omaha Police Department. http://www.kptm.com/Global/story.asp?S=10474965&nav=menu606_2

Parts of assault rifles, ammo found in North Austin dumpster
Assorted parts from assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition Tuesday were found stashed in a North Austin dumpster. http://www.kvue.com/news/vess/stories/052609kvue_guns_in_dumpster-cb.1c500cd8.html

Police: Woman Shot 3 Times With Assault Rifles
Group Of Men Open Fire On Bascomb Drive In Iva Authorities said a group of men used assault rifles to shoot the woman Friday afternoon on Bascomb Drive. http://www.wyff4.com/news/19477106/detail.html

Austin police search for man who used assault rifle to rob Tarrytown bank
Austin Police and Tarrytown residents are on the lookout for a bank robber who took off on foot Monday afternoon with an assault rifle in hand. http://www.keyetv.com/mostpopular/story/Austin-police-search-for-man-who-used-assault/Ymn8A5KNDU-X6LADQXCD5Q.cspx

Killed by police,released by mistake

Police say the suspects got out of the vehicle and Christopher White, one of the suspects, started firing an assault rifle at Chesapeake police officers. http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_wavy_ches_suspect_released_by_mistake_20090603

Chesapeake officer's stand likely saved others
We should all pray for police officers like Sean Fleming. First, that the Chesapeake rookie recovers fully from the bullet wounds he suffered in the horrific shootout on an Interstate 64 ramp Monday afternoon. Second, that the people across South Hampton Roads, and this nation, are fortunate enough to have such men and women defending us. As Fleming pulled up, a man left the van armed with an assault rifle, saw Fleming in uniform and squeezed off dozens of shots. Fleming was hit by four bullets, but managed to fire at least eight times at the attacker and get out of the Jeep. Other officers pulled him to safety. http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/chesapeake-officers-stand-likely-saved-others

Monmouth authorities try to unravel possible shooting
after swarming Rumson home Monmouth County authorities early this morning swarmed the home of a Rumson man, who was arrested three months ago for having an illegal assault rifle among a cache of weapons, after receiving reports of shots fired. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/monmouth_authorities_respond_t.html

Three arrested in two separate pot garden raids
Russell Andrew Judson, 21, and Tanen Joe Munoz, 22, were arrested on suspicion of marijuana cultivation and being armed in the commission of a felony. The men were in the possession of loaded assault rifles and a sawed-off shotgun, Solus said. Three pit bulls were also on the property. http://www.redding.com/news/2009/jun/03/three-arrested-two-separate-pot-garden-raids/

Police: Man opened fire with assault rifle
Police in Danville have arrested a man who's accused of opening fire in his neighborhood with an assault rifle. http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/45371887.html

SRU student charged in connection with drug ring
When the police searched his home, then found more than $100,000 in cash, nine firearms, including assault rifles, an undisclosed quantity of hashish, and sheets saying the other suspected dealers owed him $100,000. http://media.www.theonlinerocket.com/media/storage/paper601/news/2009/06/02/News/Sru-Student.Charged.In.Connection.With.Drug.Ring-3745673.shtml

A brash abduction. A chase. A shootout. And two dead.
People froze as a man jumped from the passenger side wielding an assault weapon, screaming at Vincent: "Get your ass in the van!" http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/brash-abduction-chase-shootout-and-two-dead

22-Year-Old Admits Opening Fire in Silsbee
On Monday morning police discovered an assault rifle (AK-47) in a wooded area where they had been searching for Herrington on Sunday. Herrington admitted he used the weapon in the shooting that took place at the Tiger Mobile Home Park on Robinson Road. http://www.kbmt12.com/news/local/46720537.html

3 men nabbed in robbery attempts
Three Gainesville men - all released from prison in the past five months - may face at least another 10 years for two attempted robberies with an assault rifle that netted $60 from one victim Saturday night. http://www.gainesville.com/article/20090525/ARTICLES/905251013/1002?Title=3-men-nabbed-in-robbery-attempts

Shooting rocks Coral Springs' safe-city status
Kempinski, carrying a pistol, was chasing a 24-year-old robbery suspect. The suspect wielded a MAK-90, a Chinese-made variation of an AK-47 -- the cheap, durable assault weapon that has armed insurgents, narco guerrillas and Third World armies for six decades. And lately, AK-47s provide firepower for urban America's street gangs. In 2007, assault weapon killings accounted for 21 percent of Miami's homicides. That September, Miami-Dade police Officer Jose Somohano, 37, was killed and three other policemen wounded when a traffic stop turned berserk. The shooter fired a MAK-90. Four months later, an assault weapon assassin murdered Miami Detective James Walker. http://www.miamiherald.com/431/story/1073951.html

3 arrested, 1 cop shot in Fla. standoff
The newspaper said at least three men, armed possibly with AK-47 assault rifles, robbed an auto parts store around 6:45 p.m. Saturday and fled in a car before police gave chase and, pursuing them to an upscale Coral Springs neighborhood where several shots were fired. One officer left his car and was shot, witnesses said. http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/05/24/3-arrested-1-cop-shot-in-Fla-standoff/UPI-51051243195060/

Rifle Found In Home Of Son Accused Of Abuse
While executing the warrant at 38301 E. Carmel Valley Road, officers found two loaded shotguns, a loaded rifle, a demilled Hungarian AMD-65 short barrel AK assault rifle and a British Sten MKII submachine gun parts set.
A CNC mill machine and a metal lathe machine set were found in Fisher's workshop. http://www.ksbw.com/news/19559011/detail.html

Templeton student seeking destructive power
In Montreal, Kimveer Gill posed with a variety of assault rifles on his blog before shooting 20 people at Dawson College. http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090603/bc_templeton_090603/20090603/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

Weapons cache seized from Lake Hiawatha man's home
A 28-year-old Parsippany man was arrested early this morning after authorities raided his Lake Hiawatha home and confiscated more than 40 weapons, including assault rifles and other high-powered weapons. http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20090521/UPDATES01/90521019/1005/NEWS01/Weapons+cache+seized+from+Lake+Hiawatha+man+s+home

5 shot and killed inside drug rehab center
Investigators have not been able to identify the victims. Investigators recovered 20 bullet casings from three different assault rifles. http://www.kvia.com/Global/story.asp?S=10464888&nav=menu193_2

Police Investigate 9th Bank Robbery
The suspect walked into the bank with an assault rifle and took off on foot. http://www.myfoxaustin.com/dpp/news/local/060109_police_investigate_ninth_bank_robbery

Pair charged with murder in Oakland crash
Anthony, Price and two other men were armed with assault rifles when they shot and killed Charles Davis, 25, near the corner of 10th Street and Allston Way in West Berkeley at about 6:35 p.m. Saturday, http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/19/BAH817NBBK.DTL

Lincoln man found with fully automatic weapons, police say
A Lincoln County man may be facing federal firearms charges after police found what they believe to be fully automatic weapons at his home near Ranger.http://wvgazette.com/News/200906010485

Two days of shootings prompts debate: How do we deal with extremists?
Privates William Long and Quinton Ezeagwula, soldiers performing duties at a Little Rock, Arkansas Army/Navy recruiting center, were struck by assault rifle fire when Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad (a.k.a. Carl Bledsoe) is alleged to have opened fire from his vehicle while driving by. http://www.examiner.com/x-4295-Seattle-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m6d2-Two-days-of-shootings-prompts-debate-How-do-we-deal-with-extremists

Slain teen’s family calls on Kaine for help
Taliaferro was shot to death by Ethan Parrish with an assault rifle June 24, and another teen was seriously wounded, http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/POWH30_20090529-204811/270691/

South Side Chase Suspect Slips Out Of Hospital In Gown
A woman jumped out of the passenger side with a semi automatic assault rifle. It was, like, all black, pretty big. The driver jumped out, grabbed it and started running behind the dairy mart," said Dermansky. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/19628483/detail.html

Police seize AK-47 after drunken traffic accident
Officers searched the area and found an AK-47 assault rifle loaded with a 30- round "banana" clip, police said. Officers searched the passenger and discovered that he was armed with an illegal "butterfly" knife. Police also found two baseball bats and a red bandanna in the back seat of the car. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/theblotter/2009277128_police_recover_assault_rifle_a.html

Suspect Arraigned In Officers' Murders
Police say Poplawski was armed with an AK-47 assault rifle and a bulletproof vest when he killed the officers. http://kdka.com/local/fallenheroes/Richard.Poplawski.Police.2.1026367.html

Man pleads guilty in death of 7-year-old
A Near East Side man who left two young boys home alone with a loaded assault rifle faces prison time after pleading guilty today to two felonies related to the death of his nephew. http://dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/05/26/broomfield.html?sid=101

Man pleads guilty in shooting involving deputy
A man who drove 110 mph on Interstate 70 last July while a companion fired an assault rifle at a pursuing Madison County sheriff's deputy may get up to 30 years in prison as a result of his guilty plea Wednesday. http://www.thetelegraph.com/news/deputy-27211-guilty-counts.html

Banning man due in court tomorrow for arraignment on the shooting of a rival gang member
officers seized an assault rifle and semi-automatic handgun, according to Perry. The rifle had its butt stock removed and barrel shortened, and the serial numbers of both weapons had been altered, she said. http://www.myvalleynews.com/story/38251/

Man Found Fatally Shot On Porch; AK-47 In Yard
Investigators are trying to determine who killed a man found lying on a front porch with several gunshot wounds, a revolver in his clothing and an assault rifle in the back yard, the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office said. Investigators also found an AK-47 assault rifle and a 12-gauge pump-action shotgun in the back yard. Police said they don't know if either weapon was used in the incident. http://www.wdsu.com/news/19526582/detail.html

Drive-By Shooting in Schuyler
Salvador Otero-Lopez, 31, was arrested at 6:30 a.m. Saturday after allegedly firing several shots from an assault rifle into a pickup truck occupied by two men. http://nebraska.statepaper.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2009/05/17/4a101d22a259f

Alabama gunman had a hit list: Report
The man who killed 10 people in the deadliest shooting rampage in Alabama history kept a hit list of those he held grudges against, local media reported Wednesday. Wielding two assault rifles, a shotgun and a handgun, McLendon left a trail of dead and six wounded across three towns during Tuesday's shooting spree, which lasted about an hour and saw him discharge more than 200 rounds, police said. http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Alabama+gunman+list+Report/1379042/story.html

Chase on I-75 yields shooter
John Patterson has been charged with two counts of aggravated assault by the Dalton Police Department after he allegedly shot a woman with an AK-47 assault rifle. http://www.northwestgeorgia.com/local/local_story_141232004.html

These results only represent a portion of 2009, there are many more. I left off a couple of the stories that made national news, I didn't go far enough back. Feel free to double check any of these stories. I've missed a number of others so feel free to add those. The gun guys always jump on me when I quote a figure of at least 40 deaths since March. It is at least 40, I've looked it up.

[TheWraith]

1. Turn in your journalism card.

For starters, it's one of the basic laws of statistics that anecdotes are meaningless. I could cite a dozen stories about people being killed by their family pets, but in a country of 300 million people that would mean nothing with regard to the percentage of people who are killed by their pets. 40 deaths since March is the definition of statistically meaningless, when you consider that there have been 9,200 deaths in car accidents in that same time period.

Second, those news reports are often mistaken about the types of firearms involved--journalists not being experts, any vaguely scary rifle becomes an "assault weapon." In fact one could argue that they're almost all wrong, since by definition an "assault rifle" is a select-fire weapon not available for legal purchase in the United States except under the terms of the 1934 National Firearms Act. You're thinking of "assault weapons," which are ordinary semi-automatic rifles that resemble the military weapons that they were copied off of.

By the way, people don't cite 2008 and 2009 statistics because they haven't been compiled and produced yet. However, there's no reason to assume they'll be any different than 2007 was.

[zbdent]

18. gotta love that logic ...

"I could cite a dozen stories about people being killed by their family pets, but in a country of 300 million people that would mean nothing with regard to the percentage of people who are killed by their pets."

ditto about home invasions, but boy, you hear that all the time from the NRA & the gun shop owners ... you'd think that 95 percent of the people in the U.S. have had this happen to them ...

[TheWraith]

35. As I said, anecdotes are pretty meaningless.

Statistics are the only thing which is scientifically valid.

[spin]

40. Statistics are like women...

Statistics are like women; mirrors of purest virtue and truth, or like whores to use as one pleases.
~Theodor Billroth

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.
~Author Unknown

Statistics can be made to prove anything - even the truth. ~Author Unknown

Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.
~Aaron Levenstein

I always find that statistics are hard to swallow and impossible to digest. The only one I can ever remember is that if all the people who go to sleep in church were laid end to end they would be a lot more comfortable.
~Mrs. Robert A. Taft

:)

[pipoman]

55. I agree and disagree

I agree that anecdotes are meaningless in the OP's point. OTOH anecdotes are vitally important from a self preservation standpoint. Statistically it is unlikely that my home will be destroyed by fire, that I will drown while on my boat, that I will die in my 40's, or that my home will be invaded by people bent on harming me or my family. I do however maintain fire insurance, keep life jackets on my boat, pay life insurance premiums, and keep my doors locked and defensive weapons. If I need any of these things I will be involved in an anecdote which outcome will be included in a statistic. So, I believe my personal actions and decisions should be dictated by risk of unlikely anecdote but public policy should be determined by statistics and void of anecdotal influence.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

2. So not posting the 2008 FBI statistics is being intentionally misleading? Is that your accusation?

[doc03]

3. What is an assault rifle? Couldn't any rifle used in a

shooting be called an assault rifle? I see a lot of just plain old rifles shotguns and handguns. Besides that the assault rifle never shot anybody the person behind it pulled the trigger.

[DainBramaged]

4. Of course not, the person behind the trigger is the force behind the bullet

deflect from reality, that is your job. Of course, there wouldn't be gun violence if these guns weren't as available as candy. And I guess the Barrett 50 cal is just perfect for deer hunting (entire herds standing side by side), ventilating engine blocks, assassination at 2 miles, whatever little task the OWNER may have for that weapon.

You people disgust me.

[armyowalgreens]

5. Do you know how expensive a barrett .50 caliber rifle is?

At least $5,000. Some go up to 15,000


Lets worry about thugs picking them up when they cost 10-30 times less.

[doc03]

6. Haven't you got the memo, the American people

don't want any new gun laws? That's one of the reasons the Democrats lost control of Congress for like 14 years you know. Go to your local gun shop and ask them why gun and ammo sales have gone through the roof the last few months. It's people like yourself that are fueling the gun sales. You can't even find most handgun ammo today, if you are not in the store the minute it comes in you are out of luck.

[DainBramaged]

7. Paranoia, brought to you by the party of fear and their Democratic sympathizers

We didn't lose control over gun laws, you really are delusional. And if it's "people like yourself" that are fueling the gun sales, it's people like you who are fueling paranoia and violence.

Keep rubbing that gun against your crotch, you may have an Epiphany.

[armyowalgreens]

9. Bottom line is citizens have a right to own guns as a means of protection against tyranny.

If the time ever came that the US government was some form of dictatorship or other tyrannous government, the citizens would have to act.

And by the time we realized that revolution was necessary, I'm sure the opportunity to purchase fire arms will be long past.

[DainBramaged]

10. You really need to reconsider your life priorities

Bottom line is citizens have a right to own guns as a means of protection against tyranny.
If the time ever came that the US government was some form of dictatorship or other tyrannous government, the citizens would have to act.

And by the time we realized that revolution was necessary, I'm sure the opportunity to purchase fire arms will be long past.

If you believe what you just wrote, then I am way more afraid of you than any form of government in my lifetime.

Goodbye. You make me fearful for those around you.

[armyowalgreens]

11. I make you fearful because I'm going to save your ass from BushCo3.0?

Talk about not understanding reality.

Listen. Guns are not things to look upon fondly. I am not going to display them over my mantle. Guns are dangerous things that should only be used in the MOST EXTREME circumstances.

One EXTREME circumstance is revolution against a tyrannous government. What makes you think that the US couldn't become a tyrannous government? Can you see the future?

There is one major reason why we have the 2nd amendment. It's to protect citizens against tyranny. If citizens don't arm themselves in a responsible manner, there is no point.

[Callisto32]

22. Ad Hominem=Fail

[Statistical]

38. Well then you would be deathly afraid of the founding fathers.

Likely you would have fled back to the protection of King George because those "first gun nuts" said almost the exact same thing.

One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them. --- Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, (Memorial Edition) Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. ---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined. ... O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone...Did you ever read of any revolution in a nation...inflicted by those who had no power at all? ---Patrick Henry, Virginia Ratifying convention, June 2, 1788

When the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually. ---George Mason, Virginia Ratifying convention, June 2, 1788

Whereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it. ---Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. --- Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

[X_Digger]

28. "We didn't lose control over gun laws" ? So Former Pres Clinton is wrong?

"Just before the House vote (on the crime bill), Speaker Tom Foley and majority leader Dick Gephardt had made a last-ditch appeal to me to remove the assault weapons ban from the bill. They argued that many Democrats who represented closely divided districts had already...defied the NRA once on the Brady bill vote. They said that if we made them walk the plank again on the assault weapons ban, the overall bill might not pass, and that if it did, many Democrats who voted for it would not survive the election in November. Jack Brooks, the House Judiciary Committee chairman from Texas, told me the same thing...Jack was convinced that if we didn't drop the ban, the NRA would beat a lot of Democrats by terrifying gun owners....Foley, Gephardt, and Brooks were right and I was wrong. The price...would be heavy casualties among its defenders." (Pages 611-612)

"On November 8, we got the living daylights beat out of us, losing eight Senate races and fifty-four House seats, the largest defeat for our party since 1946....The NRA had a great night. They beat both Speaker Tom Foley and Jack Brooks, two of the ablest members of Congress, who had warned me this would happen. Foley was the first Speaker to be defeated in more than a century. Jack Brooks had supported the NRA for years and had led the fight against the assault weapons ban in the House, but as chairman of the Judiciary Committee he had voted for the overall crime bill even after the ban was put into it. The NRA was an unforgiving master: one strike and you're out. The gun lobby claimed to have defeated nineteen of the twenty-four members on its hit list. They did at least that much damage...." (Pages 629-630)

"One Saturday morning, I went to a diner in Manchester full of men who were deer hunters and NRA members. In impromptu remarks, I told them that I knew they had defeated their Democratic congressman, Dick Swett, in 1994 because he voted for the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban. Several of them nodded in agreement." (Page 699)

--William J. Clinton, My Life

[Tejas]

66. "Keep rubbing that gun against your crotch" - I'm not a doctor, but you might have

issues that need looking into.

[Hoopla Phil]

76. Penis reference. Perhaps you should seek some help if YOU

are equating firearms to penises. LOL

[SteveM]

77. Gun-controllers on this site do the GOP's bidding -- for free...

My goodness, you must read Bill Clinton who says that Al Gore lost the presidential election in 2000 largely because of his support of the so-called "assault weapons ban." Even the gun-controlling DNC recognizes that the issue has been used to elect scores of right-wing GOPers on the cheap. How do they do it? By telling everyone and their dog about "gun-banning Democrats," often quoting sources like you.

Sorry, if you want to control the "fueling paranoia," then get rid of the plank in the Democratic Party which calls for re-instituting a PERMANENT and expanded AWB. My god, fellow, how can you point your finger at paranoia and not recognize the red flag waved at the bull?

As for the usual gun/sex organ stuff, he who first smelt it dealt it.

[cliffordu]

12. Barretts aren't accurate at ALL at two miles.

At 1500 yards they're fucking perfect.

I'm glad I disgust you on this subject.

[DainBramaged]

14. "click"

you are invisible now, no need to worry.

[cliffordu]

16. buh bye.

[Callisto32]

21. Just ignore something you don't want to handle. Yeah, that'll work. n/t

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Callisto32]

24. Sigh *headshake*

[inkool]

25. It is ignorance for someone...

to correct your statement regarding the effective range of a .50 caliber rife?

I am not sure ignorance means what you think it means.

[bossy22]

33. the princess bride eh?

i love that movie

[Euromutt]

27. For "click," read...

"LALALALALA, I can't HEAR you!"

You know, if you're not prepared to listen to anyone with an opposing viewpoint, why the fuck should anyone listen to yours?

And the by the way, didn't you indicate in post #10 that you were going to fuck off out of this thread?

[SteveM]

78. Actually, given his reproduction references, he probably wants to handle it (nt)

[Hoopla Phil]

54. How cute. The stick your fingers in your ears and say LaLaLa debate tactic.

How very tolerant of you.

[rl6214]

63. WOW, isn't that adult like.

Don't like the facts so I'm going to take my ball and go home.

[dairydog91]

59. I've rarely heard great things about their accuracy against point targets.

Maybe 1 MOA if you've got a good rifle and excellent ammunition. Certainly way too inaccurate to reliably hit a human target at two miles, a range at which you're starting to fire the round on a mortar-like trajectory.

[Euromutt]

61. Well, they are "anti-materiel" rifles

Fifty-cal rifles aren't made to hit humans at a mile; they're made to punch holes in radar dishes, communications equipment and the like, stuff that can be put out of commission without having to be completely destroyed. The advantage being that it's less risky to your people if one guy can put a few holes in the enemy's gear at a mile distance than if you have to send in a team with demolition charges.

[dairydog91]

65. I'm aware of that, but many a gun grabber isn't...

Hence the claims about the .50 being a "perfect weapon for assassination".

[cliffordu]

68. In the movies. Marky Wahlberg knows, he starred in one...

And he could shoot the shit out of cans of peaches at a thousand yards....

I saw it with my own eyes!!!!

[krispos42]

71. The ultimate effective range of a gun on a person...

...is the lesser value of the range at which the bullet drops below supersonic, or target diameter times 100, then divided by the accuracy of the gun/ammo/shooter combination. Assuming an 8-inch vital area, a .30-06 deer rifle with 2 MOA accuracy is effective to 400 yards, accuracy-limited. A .223 varmit rifle with an accuracy of .5 MOA is effective to 725 yards, velocity-limited. A police sniper rifle in .308 and an accuracy of .5 MOA is limited to 800 yards, velocity-limited. A .50-caliber sniper rifle with an accuracy of 1 MOA is limited to 800 yards, accuracy limited.

In the case of a .50, the accuracy issue is the limiting factor, not the speed issue. Now if you're trying to take out a surface-to-air missile sitting on it's launcher, you have a much larger target diameter and thus a greater effective range.


But some people don't understand that. So much of shooting has to do with the shooter. Put me and a police sniper at the range, sharing the same rifle and ammo, and I guarantee that my effective range will be less than half of his. Maybe less than a third. Hell, maybe less than a quarter! This is independent of the rifle's chambering. Me shooting even a finely-tuned masterpiece of a rifle automatically turns it into a 3 MOA weapon. I'm not as good as the rifle is. Period.

[cliffordu]

67. At two miles the MOA is prolly something like 6 feet...maybe more...

At that point you just call in the air stike.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. So, since there are many thousands of .50 caliber rifles in civilian posession it should be easy

for you to cite a litany of crimes committed with them right?

Right?

(I know of five. Not this year, or this decade, but five EVER. Only 1 produced a death.)

[cliffordu]

47. That's because when you set one of those fuckers off poeple hear it very clearly

for about 3 miles.

Also, you HAVE to be out in the open to shoot one- the concussion inside a room will break the eardrums of anyone inside.

In fact, I don't know of an indoor shooting range that allows them indoors...


If my information is correct, they generally they get used for killing vehicles and shooting through walls at a distance.

And killing other snipers outside the range thier weapons......

Or maybe the're just used for all kinds of mayhem. Could be that I haven't been paying attention.

[paulsby]

49. the media is often wrong. check yer facts

and in many cases they quote (ignorant, and i say that AS a cop myself) cops, etc. that claim an "assault rifle" was used in the shooting, when in fact it WASN'T an assault rifle. it was a RIFLE.

the first thing you have to do in a debate like this is define and understand terms.

i have never , fwiw, in 20 yrs of law enforcement been to, investigated, or heard about a shooting that involved an ASSAULT rifle iow fully automatic rifle.

never

i have seen NUMEROUS media reports that made that claim, though.

during the WTO, i was a riot cop. some of us carried SEMI-automatic rifles, specifically ar-15's.

these are not ASSAULT RIFLES. i read several articles that referred to us as carring "assault rifles"

[cliffordu]

53. Come on, Paulsby,

Don't bring any real life experience into this clusterfuck of misinformation, it just annoys the gun grabbing howlers and hurts the feelings of the wilfully ignorant.

:hi:

[krispos42]

8. SKS is not an "assault rifle" or an "assault weapon"

It's operationally IDENTICAL to an M1 Garand... you know, the rifle our GIs carried in World War 2 and Korea. Both are semi-automatic, conventionally stocked, with a fixed magazine that is hand-loaded with a disposable metal clip full of ammuntion.


And note in several of your anecdotes the rifles are not used in crimes but only in possession.

[DainBramaged]

13. I see my concerns will not be addressed, since you are sympathetic to the NRA

I waste my time (and the wackos continue to have a voice on DU), but so did the people who reported their concerns to the FBI over the (alleged) murderer of Dr. Tiller, and they did nothing for the past three years until his stance resulted in murder.

[armyowalgreens]

15. ooga booga! the 2nd amendment dems are out to get you...

The NRA is not an evil organization. They have a lot of issues with their image, but the ultimate goal of the NRA is a good one.

[cliffordu]

48. Fuck the NRA. I just like being heavily armed.

Don't have any firearms at this time, but could if I wanted to.

And don't lump all of us in with the corporate arm of the weapons industry, it's just fucking stupid.

[bossy22]

34. there is a difference

between a different point of view and a "whacko" point of view....you seem to not realize that

also if you don't want to accept some information about the issue, then fine, but don't demonize the person that is positing it. No they arent always shills for the NRA...hey...maybe they are actually right. For example, the guy above mentioning the SKS rifle is correct, its not an assault rifle by definition and its not even an assault weapon by definition. It did at one point in its design life have a military application, but that alone isnt enough to brand it the term assault rifle.

so i suggest you calm down a little and actually have a well thought out debate...because what you are doing now is more in line how a child deals with an issue he/she doesnt want to deal with (stick fingers in your ears and yell "lalalalalalalalala")

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krispos42]

70. Interesting.

I was under the impression that the less we interacted, the happier you would be.



ETA: even more interesting, since I was replying to the OP.

[frog92969]

17. I believe it's called a "support weapon"

And I love mine.

[krispos42]

72. Battle Carbine

Uh-oh, sounds scary. Better ban them!

[rl6214]

64. But there are many

That want to include the M1 Garand in the assault weapon ban. 8 rounds in an enbloc clip, that's real easy to load and fire quickly.

[Euromutt]

19. I notice a number of stories you posted described the same incidents

For example:
Austin police search for man who used assault rifle to rob Tarrytown bank and
Police Investigate 9th Bank Robbery
In both cases, the Wells Fargo on Windsor Road; it's the same incident.

Killed by police,released by mistake
Chesapeake officer's stand likely saved others
A brash abduction. A chase. A shootout. And two dead.
Suspects White (deceased), Simmons and Short: all the same incident.

Shooting rocks Coral Springs' safe-city status
3 arrested, 1 cop shot in Fla. standoff
The later story describes the officer shot as "the first police officer ever shot in the line of duty in {Coral Springs'} 46-year history." Same incident.

Lincoln man found with fully automatic weapons, police say
"Fully automatic," i.e. not an "assault weapon."

Templeton student seeking destructive power
In Montreal, Kimveer Gill posed with a variety of assault rifles on his blog before shooting 20 people at Dawson College
1) The Dawson College shootings were in 2006.
2) Montreal is in Canada.
The kid this story's actually about had one gun, a pump-action shotgun. In Vancouver, BC, which is also in Canada. (How's that "C$119 million" gun registry working for ya, hosers?)

Parts of assault rifles, ammo found in North Austin dumpster
A bunch of upper receivers; for ATF purposes, upper receivers do not form the "gun," that would be the lower. So what's the charge here, illegal dumping?

Police seize AK-47 after drunken traffic accident
The firearm wasn't actually used in the commission of a crime. True, it's illegal for a 17 year-old to possess a firearm (Rev. Code of Washington 9.41.040), but that goes for any type of firearm. Oh, and having a loaded firearm in a vehicle is a misdemeanor, but again, that goes any type of firearm (unless it's a pistol and you have concealed pistol license).

Man pleads guilty in death of 7-year-old
Tragic, but here again, the type of firearm is immaterial to the offense. The same could have happened with any type of gun. Plus the guy tried to cover it up.

Man charged in assault rifle killings of 3 teens
First line of the article: "A man was charged Thursday with first-degree murder in the shootings of three teenagers last week that authorities believe involved an assault rifle." So they don't know. The type of cartridges typically used by rifle-type "assault weapons" can also be used by other, non-"assault" weapons.

Ark. suspect arrested by KPD
Now, this one's actually very interesting, because it concerns Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad (formerly Carlos Bledsoe), the perp of the recruiting office shootings. For some reason, despite being found in possession of an illegally sawed-off shotgun (violation of the NFA of 1934), the charge was dropped, and Bledsoe (as he was at the time) avoided a felony conviction and a prison sentence. Maybe if someone in Knoxville had bothered to enforce the laws we have, Bledsoe wouldn't have been in a position to shoot those two soldiers.
And, as noted by others, the SKS "assault rifle" mentioned in relation to both stories is not actually an "assault weapon." It's a semi-auto rifle that fires from an internal magazine. No detachable mag = no "assault weapon."
And this story concerns an incident in 2004.

So that's shortened your list a fair bit already. So I have to ask, did you not bother to read these stories, or were you hoping that none of us would?

[Euromutt]

26. And speaking of not letting facts get in the way...

Let's look at this story: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090603/bc_templeton_090603/20090603/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

In Montreal, Kimveer Gill posed with a variety of assault rifles on his blog before shooting 20 people at Dawson College.

Gill did not own a single weapon, let alone "a variety," that would meet the definition of "assault rifle" (a selective-fire long gun firing intermediate power rounds) or (in the American legal sense) "assault weapon." The closest thing he had was a Beretta CX4 Storm (http://world.guns.ru/civil/civ003-e.htm), a "pistol caliber carbine," i.e. a long gun that fires handgun rounds. If you examine the photos of the "basic configuration" in the link provided, you will see that while the CX4 is a semi-automatic weapon that accepts a detachable magazine, it lacks any of the "evil" features that would make it an "assault weapon" per the 1994 AWB. It does not have a folding/collapsible stock, a barrel capable of accepting a muzzle flash hider, a bayonet lug, a rifle grenade spigot, and for legal purposes, it doesn't even have a pistol grip.

It should be noted that the existence of pistol caliber carbines has been seized upon by certain sensationalist news media to claim that a handgun involved in some incident "fires a round that can also be fired by a rifle" to imply that the pistol in question fires rifle rounds, whereas in fact the reverse is true.

Moving on to Fred Grimm's column in the Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/431/story/1073951.html):

Officer Paul Kempinski was protected by an anachronism -- a bulletproof vest designed for an era before street thugs had easy access to such fearsome weaponry.

A 7.62mm bullet transformed his vest into a misnomer.

The term "bulletproof vest" has always been a misnomer. Modern-day body armor evolved from the "flak vests" issued to USAAF bomber crews in the second world war, which were so named because they were designed to stop a shell fragment from an anti-aircraft cannon (German: Fliegerabwehrkanone, shortened to "FlAK") but not a rifle-caliber bullet fired from an enemy fighter plane's machine guns. As body armor became more commonplace among grounds troops during Korea, Vietnam and Northern Ireland, the term "flak vest" gave way somewhat to "frag vest," continuing to imply that the vest would stop shrapnel fragments, but not directly striking bullets.

The development of Kevlar in the early 1970s was a leap forward, in that it made it possible to manufacture concealable body armor that would stop certain handgun bullets. But it was always understood that body armor that was thin enough to be worn under, say, a police uniform shirt, would not able to resist a rifle bullet. As a result, use of the term "bulletproof vest" has always been the mark of an amateur; issuing agencies refer to them as "ballistic vests" or "bullet resistant" vests. Hell, as recently as 1994, when I was doing my national service in the Dutch army, we referred to the body armor we issued troops assigned to UNPROFOR in Bosnia as "fragment resistant vests," even though they were supposed to be capable of stopping an assault rifle bullet; the point being to remind the personnel wearing it not to rely on their armor to keep them alive.

Bottom line being, cops know their concealable vests won't stop a rifle round. Only clueless columnists think it's weird that vests designed to stop handgun rounds at most won't stop rifle rounds.

We've become so inured to bloody expressions of excess weaponry that when bursts from a military-style weapon penetrated Kempinski's not-quite bulletproof vest eight days ago, the public reaction was muted.

I'll ignore the repetition of the "bulletproof" canard, and focus instead on the phrase "bursts from a military-style weapon." The term "military-style" in effect means "looks like an automatic weapon but can only fire semi-auto"; the term "burst" means a short (typically 3-5 rounds) series of shots fired on automatic. Hence, it is impossible for a "military-style" "assault weapon" to fire bursts. Grimm is trying to create the impression that the weapon used to shoot Officer Kempinski was capable of automatic fire, when in actual fact it was not. This is an all-too-common phenomenon in the news media: to generate the impression that "assault weapons" are "high-powered" weapons capable of automatic fire.

Why? Because the American news media rely on advertising revenue, which in turn depends on ratings. They have to keep you watching, and the best way to keep you watching is to sensationalistically make you afraid for your personal safety and that of your family. That's why you'll never hear an anchorman say "After the break, a minor chemical spill in a reservoir in rural Georgia," but instead "Up next: a toxic threat to our nation's water supply. Could you be affected? Find out after the break."

And in this case, hell, it's Florida, a state so thoroughly fucked up that Fark.com has a special tag for it.

[spin]

41. Wow, you have a strong opinion on Florida...

And in this case, hell, it's Florida, a state so thoroughly fucked up that Fark.com has a special tag for it.

Well I live here and it's a hell of a lot better than living in some liberal states that have draconian gun laws.

Florida got the concealed carry concept right when they decided to issue a concealed weapons permit. Basically with this license the only weapon I can't carry concealed is a machine gun.

Lots of other states issue concealed carry license that apply on to firearms. Some of the knives I carry in Florida for everyday use would be illegal in those states, even with a concealed carry permit.

So Florida isn't totally "fucked up".

[Euromutt]

44. I may have expressed myself a bit strongly

For which I apologize. I was somewhat inebriated when I wrote that. Still, Florida does seem to produce more than its fair share of news stories that are... wrong, in various ways.

[spin]

51. No problem...

Yes, we do see a lot of strange news.

The big voting fiasco during the Brush and Gore Presidential race drew a lot of negative attention to Florida. The old timers seemed to have a hard time understanding and using the punch card voting system in some counties. Soon we started examining voter ballots for chads, hanging chads and pregnant chads. The whole nation watched in disbelief.

Now when something weird or strange happens in Florida, it goes national in a hurry.

[cliffordu]

50. Nice job!!!

Excellent rebuttal

[benEzra]

20. No, LESS than 3 percent. The 3 percent figure is for all rifles combined.

And in a lot of your Scary Anecdotes, no one is killed or even injured. For rifle-related murders, look at the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_20.html

The reason I don't cite the 2008 FBI UCR stats is that they haven't been published yet; only the preliminary 2008 data has been released, and it shows a drop in crime from 2007. But there is no reason to think that rifle murders will be more than 3 or 4 percent of total homicides, because they seem to be running at about the same rate as in prior years. Rifle murders of police are also consistent with prior years.

Do you have even a passing familiarity with statistics? 3% of U.S. murders (the all-rifles-combined number) is between 400 and 500 murders annually, out of 12,000 to 14,000. That's between 30 and 40 a month for rifles (comparable to that for shotguns), compared to just under 700 a month for handguns, 60 a month for fists and feet, and maybe 100 a month for knives.

As far as the alleged threat to police officers, the FBI Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted data may be accessed via the FBI Uniform Crime Reports page www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm#leoka , and I'll link to the NLEOMF 2008 data below.

From the summaries from the press releases page:

2006: 46 gun-related murders (35 handgun, 8 rifle, 2 shotgun, 1 unknown type)

2007: 55 gun-related murders (38 handgun, 8 rifle, 9 shotgun, 0 unknown type)

Since practically all "assault weapons" would be in the rifle category, it is instructive that the 2006-to-2007 increases were all in in the handgun and shotgun categories; rifle murders didn't increase at all, despite the MSM hysteria in 2007, which they're repeating this year.

Link to the NLEOMF 2008 figures here (PDF file).

Preliminary 2009 data here: http://www.nleomf.com/TheMemorial/facts.htm

Rifle handgrips that stick out aren't the threat to the public/police officers that some would like to portray them.

[gorfle]

29. As usual, facts win.

And BenEzra continues to be my hero.

[X_Digger]

30. Breaking news: Journalist-lite tries to gin up moral panic with anecdotes!

I'll wait until the FBI & DOJ compile their stats for 2008, thanks.

[NewMoonTherian]

31. I have sympathy for your position.

But your argument is deeply flawwed and unpersuasive. I certainly not going to jump on you for quoting a figure of crimes involving long guns - I'm certain it's more than that - but I do have to call you out for misrepresenting that figure in relation to other gun crimes, the same way I'll call out other anti-gun advocates for misrepresenting the facts.

What you could do, if you want to be viewed as intellectually honest, is argue the same numbers on their own merit(ie "even one gun death is too many. Here's X number!). You may or may not get far, but you gain credibility, and it opens the door for more levelheaded discussion than we've seen on this thread. I encourage you to rethink your words, make a new thread, and see where things go. I guarantee your concerns will be better addressed, and probably more respectfully.

[TheWraith]

36. The "one death is too many" argument is inherently unrealistic.

This isn't like somebody selling bread laced with cyanide or something completely preventable. As long as there are people there are going to be crimes, and as long as there are crimes there are going to be deaths from crimes. That's the nature of life. It may not be reassuring, but it is realistic. The UK followed that "one is too many" illogic, and effectively banned guns. So the criminals started using more knives. Now they're banning knives. And if they're ever successful at that, the people intent on committing a crime will start using bats, or clubs, or something else. Since the dawn of us learning that a rock made a good bludgeon, the only way to fight crime has been to root out criminals and the source causes for crime, not the tools used in it.

[NewMoonTherian]

42. I agree.

I was just trying to steer Michael into more honest rhetoric. If we're talking unrealistic, the entire idea of banning guns is a nonstarter. But people are still going to harp on it, and if they're going to harp, I'd like to see them harp more sensibly than this.

[Euromutt]

45. It's also invariably used selectively

If people actually believed that "one death is too many," we'd ban motor vehicles, swimming pools, bath tubs, rope, step ladders, anything that has ever been involved in a fatal accident (even a freak one), let alone an intentional death. Truth is, we accept these deaths as the price we pay for the utility, convenience or even luxury of these items.

People who claim "one death is too many" are being hypocritical, because they don't apply it to the things they like.

[dairydog91]

60. It has to be, else the world would come screeching to a halt.

We have a ban all pointy objects, because someone might slip and fall on one. We need to ban the act of living aboveground, since it exposes people to avoidable lighting strikes. We need to ban living, because every living person will one day die.

[slackmaster]

32. Oddly enough, not one of those stories involved an actual assault rifle

It's all bullshit gun-grabber propaganda.

[Euromutt]

62. Correction: one did

This one: Lincoln man found with fully automatic weapons, police say http://wvgazette.com/News/200906010485

Troopers confiscated one AR-15 they think was converted to fire full-auto, a second fully automatic AR-15 and parts to convert a third rifle.

Of course, the weapons weren't used in a crime, having the weapons was the crime.

[jody]

39. Looks like you are better at flyfishing and wood working. n/t

[aikoaiko]

43. You dispute the 3% figure but offer not data to disprove?

:shrug:

Usually, the 3% figure comes from FBI stats that categorized homocides by gun type and rifles (all rifles including so called assault weapon rifles) comprised about 3-4%. I focus on rifles because that's the class of firearms that include ar15s and the dreaded ak47 style semi auto rifles.

See http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_20.html

In 2007 there were 14831 murders and 450 were completed with rifles. That's 3%.

There really isn't very good data on whether the rifles described by name or feature in AWB legislation. Someone really does need to do the research because a crime conducted with an AR15 without a bayonet lug and fixed stock would not be considered an AWB, but with those fetures it would be.

To convince me that they are used in a substantial amount of crimes you are going to have to produce a lot more facts than merely a google search of news articles are varying accuracy.

[benEzra]

46. Another drive-by scaremongering.

The 2008 Uniform Crime Reports should be out soon, and as soon as it is, I will post rifle crime stats from 2006 through 2008. The FBI LEOKA data and the NLEOMF data for 2008 are already out.

[aikoaiko]

52. I don't understand how someone in journalism could post that & then not respond to serious responses

As you say, drive-by scaremongering.

Thank you Ben for all your efforts to bring honest facts to this forum.

[NVJJC]

57. So if we can just get bad guys to shoot victims slower it's better?

600,000+ killed in the US Civil War with single shot cap and
ball guns.  Even allowing for the loss due to no antibiotics
it's apparent that equipment arguments are silly.

In 30 yrs as a Peace Officer I never had a victim's family say
"Thank goodness my loved one's throat was cut."  or
"I'm so relieved she was strangled rather than
shot."

All violence should end.  Equipment arguments are off point.  

JFK said in 1960 "By calling attention to "a well
regulated militia" the "security of the nation, and
the right of each citizen "to keep and bear arms” out
founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of
our economy.  Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears
of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second
Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the
Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic
civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must
be ready to participate in the defense of his country.  For
that reason I believe the Second Amendment will always be
important."  Published in GUNS Magazine

So the Second Amendment is not about duck hunting it's about
governmental tyranny.  We should have exactly what the
government gives it's foot soldiers and agents.  Exactly that
- the same guns our tax dollars buy them we should buy for
ourselves.  Nothing more, nothing less.

(But you will need more for Mule Deer and Elk in the West. 
Just don't tell what those guns will do at 500+ yards.)

[Tejas]

69. Is that JFK quote for real?

Never seen that, interesting.

[NVJJC]

73. JFK Quote 100% - I own that issue of the magazine GUNS 1960

I have an equally good quote from HHH I'll post here soon.

www.NevadaOutdoorDemocrats.com

Also Google Oregon Blue steel Democrats and Idaho gun toting
Democrats

The West speaks.  I'll post links soon too.

[NVJJC]

74. Humphrey = Second Amendment = safeguard against a tyranny

Senator Hubert H. Humphrey, a Democrat Barack Obama described
as “a great liberal” in his book The Audacity of Hope, said
this in 1960: 

“Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any
government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right
of citizens to keep and bear arms.  This is not to say that
firearms should not be very carefully used, and that definite
safety rules of precaution should not be taught and enforced. 
But the right of citizens to bear arms is just one more
guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard
against a tyranny which now appears remote in America, but
which historically has proven to be always possible.”  - 1960
GUNS Magazine column “Know your Lawmakers” 

http://www.nodc.us/2008NevadaDemocraticPresidentialCaucus.htm 

These are the Democrats of my youth.  

[friendly_iconoclast]

58. "OK, class. Read the following and tell me what's wrong with it."

This is a case study for a Journo 101 class, right?

Kudos to benEzra and Euromutt for pointing out that the OP has more holes than a wheel of Emmental...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. The funniest thing is the OP couldn't even defend this BS. He didn't respond to a single post.