Canada: Liberals expected to announce handgun ban

[Dolomite]

http://www.canada.com/story.html?id=28eeda45-a3d3-4892-be0e-cfbb397c5af8&k=

OTTAWA -- Prime Minister Paul Martin will venture into a violence-plagued area of Toronto on Thursday to announce a sweeping ban on handguns, The Canadian Press has learned.

And I'm sure he's going in without armed protection, right?

Handguns are already severely restricted in Canada and a handgun registry has been in force for more than 60 years.

So, after 60 years of failure, finally they've found a way to get all those criminals to turn in their illegal guns - oh bully! What took them so long?

Created 10 years ago, the registry was supposed to cost a mere $2 million. Instead, its cost has ballooned to more than $1 billion.

The Conservatives, who declined comment on the expected handgun ban Wednesday, have called the program a boondoggle and Auditor General Sheila Fraser has sharply criticized the waste and mismanagment that have pervaded the registry.

Gun owners warned at the time that the registry was the first step toward confiscation of their guns. Martin's announcement may be seen as confirmation of their worst fears.

No shit Sherlock?

[Canuckistanian]

1. Huh? I don't get it.

Since when has any private citizen in Canada ever been allowed to own a handgun without permits up the wazoo?

What more could they possibly do?

It's my impression that handguns are absolutely verboten unless you're in law enforcement.

Is there some magical loophole?

[applegrove]

4. 50% of the guns used in murders are illegally imported. A good

portion of the rest are stolen from homes of collectors and lawful people.

You cannot stop the flow unless you tighten it up.

And really - 50 gun murders a year in a city of 3 Million is not acceptable. For the USA - that would be a great statistic. Here - and the rest of the western world - that is considered a travesty.

[michreject]

12. This law, if passed, will not change a thing

When this fails, which it will do, I wonder what the next suggestion to control honest people will be?

[Canuckistanian]

16. Tell me about it

This is way, way out of the norm historically for Toronto. And I know where it's coming from. The east end, Scarborough, to be precise.

I know, I used to live there.

[iverglas]

9. actually, lots

Anyone who qualifies for a firearms licence and joins a recognized sport shooting club can get a permit for a handgun, really. There are also collectors. There are stringent rules about transportation, for instance (i.e. to and from the range only), but it really isn't that hard to get permission to have them.

The problem is that a lot of sport shooters and collectors just aren't as public-spirited as they're expected to be -- they fail to store their firearms securely, the firearms get stolen, and the firearms get used to commit homicides or facilitate crimes. About half of the "crime guns" in a recent Toronto police study were acquired that way. (Obviously, smuggling from the US accounts for the other largest share.)

A theft a few weeks ago in Port Hope (Toronto bedroom community) netted about 40 firearms, as I recall. It is suspected that they are now on the streets of Toronto.

We do always want to keep in mind that there have been 74 homicides so far this year in Toronto (pop ~5 million), about 50 of which were firearms homicides. What looks like plague and pestilence depends on one's point of view; from south of the border, that looks like the lions lying down with the lambs.

Martin is, of course, playing to the crowd. Nonetheless, it's arguable that if such an apparently large proportion of handgun owners is just going to let their firearms fall into the hands of the people shooting other people with them, the only way to stop it happening is to stop permitting people to own handguns for fun. A few bad apples, and all that -- when the harm that results from their scummy behaviour is so serious, and there's apparently no other way to stop the flow of handguns to criminals, whaddaya do?

[slackmaster]

14. Whaddaya do?

I would suggest keeping known violent criminals locked up in jail so they can't get their grubbies on other peoples' snubbies.

[Canuckistanian]

15. Port Hope?

The sleepy little town near Cobourg? Amazing. And I'm from Toronto, you don't have to tell ME about the problems in Toronto. I got out about 5 years ago partially for this reason.

Very informative post. I didn't realize there were handguns in gun clubs. Still, the majority of these firearms are smuggled in to the country, so what's to be done about them?

[goju]

2. I thought WE were to blame

I thought the US was to blame for their gun problem. How will this ban have any effect on the problem? Is this just another case of gun controllers addressing symptoms, instead of the illness?

[enfield collector]

3. gun control is never about guns, it's always about control.

[applegrove]

5. No - it is about the illegal guns that up murder rates. Guns are bad

things in the hands of criminals.

[Therealhelmetcase]

6. Good plan!

Well, I'm sure this gun control measure will fix that! :eyes:

[benEzra]

7. So making legal handguns illegal solves that?

So much for registration and licensure supposedly not leading to confiscation...

...and people wonder why we U.S. gun owners oppose registration and licensure...looks like Canada is set to become Exhibit J, now (behind the host of other countries and U.S. jurisdictions that have suckered gun owners into cooperating in good faith with licensure and registration provisions, then stabbed them in the back once the authorities had enough information to start confiscating...

[iverglas]

10. yeah, eh?

So much for registration and licensure supposedly not leading to confiscation...

So much for law-abiding gun owners actually abiding by the law ...

If the legally-owned guns weren't ending up in the criminal hands, there wouldn't be a problem now, would there?

[rinsd]

20. "legally-owned guns weren't ending up in the criminal hands"

That itself is already illegal.

Gee, because some people abuse free spech should we eliminate it?

[iverglas]

21. eh?

legally-owned guns weren't ending up in the criminal hands
That itself is already illegal.

If you could explain what the referrent for your pronoun ("that", as in "that itself") is, I might know what you're talking about.

Not necessarily, of course ...


Gee, because some people abuse free spech should we eliminate it?

Did somebody leave his/her speech lying around on a night table, contrary to the law, and somebody else got killed by means of it?

Have you actually thought of some way of eliminating speech? (that being the counterpart of firearms ownership, in the analogy you seem to be attempting to build; see how well it doesn't work?)

Again, any time you want to tell me what your point is, I'll try to see it.

Or, if you want some assistance with knowing what you're talking about, just ask.

[Therealhelmetcase]

23. Blaming law abiding citizens is NOT the answer

I know exactly what you're getting at, and it's irrelevant and frankly some shallow thinking.

You're saying that law abiding gun owners are the reason criminals get guns. That's simply not true. And of the guns that get into felons' hands that once belonged to law abiding gun owners like me, a great majority are stolen. Want to make sure my Glock doesn't end up in a criminal's hand? Let me keep it with me more often! Forcing me to leave it at home when I go to my girlfriend's house or to the grocery store only gives criminals more chances to get at it.

I tried to insert some sanity into the Canada debate here: http://progunprogressive.com/?p=17

[iverglas]

26. oh great guru

-- while you're covering your ears and going wah-wah, can you spare a moment to enlighten me?

You're saying that law abiding gun owners are the reason criminals get guns. That's simply not true.

I'm actually not saying that (people aren't reasons, really, are they?). But here's what the people actually in the know do say:

http://www.torontopoliceboard.on.ca/minutes/2004/040122pmm.pdf

You want to skip to the part that starts out:

Appendix A
Illegal Importation of Firearms

... It has been historically held that the majority of firearms used in criminal acts in Toronto were smuggled into Canada from the United States. Recent investigations by the Toronto Police Service have indicated that an equal number of these firearms were of a lawful Canadian origin prior to their use in a criminal act.

Although there are a number of firearms reportedly used in various criminal acts each year in the City of Toronto, these firearms do not routinely come into the possession of the police for examination and origin determination. Handguns are the preferred weapons for use in the commission of criminal acts. This preference is clearly represented in Toronto Police Service records for the period of 1998 to August 30, 2003, wherein there have been 325 homicides in Toronto, 133 involving the use of a firearm. Of this total, 124 murders, or 93% of firearm involved homicides, involved the use of a handgun. Nine homicides involved the use of a rifle or shotgun.

It's pretty easy to get a rifle or shotgun legally in Canada (I mean, if you aren't a convicted criminal kind of person ... and no, no one up here is "thinking about confiscating all the guns in the land!", silly you). Oddly enough, people seem to prefer to go to rather great lengths to get handguns for their jobs instead. And as the facts and figures and reasonable inferences from those facts and figures (like the hypothesis that crime guns whose serial numbers have been obliterated originated inside Canada, i.e. were lawfully in someone's possession at one time) do show, a large proportion of the handguns used in crime in Toronto, at least, appear to have somehow escaped the custody of their lawful owners at some point.

Want to make sure my Glock doesn't end up in a criminal's hand? Let me keep it with me more often! Forcing me to leave it at home when I go to my girlfriend's house or to the grocery store only gives criminals more chances to get at it.

Me, I'd say that requiring you to store it in such a manner that no criminal had much chance of getting at it at all would do the job. The problem seems to be that so many of your fellow travellers just don't think that that law (which is indeed in effect up here) applies to them.

Sadly, allowing you to tote your little gun around in your pants is no greater guarantee that you're not going to just leave it lying on the night table, is it now?

[Therealhelmetcase]

29. Geebus that's silly

Firstly, if you've read my site, you've read the quote from PM Paul Martin where he acknowledges that half the guns used in crimes come from the US. So how exactly is this ban going to address that? All that you posted only strengthens my case. In either case, unscrupulous people will buy guns legally here and import them there. And don't try to dodge the issue--they are trying to ban and confiscate all handguns. If you're thinking that all guns used in Canada are stolen, you're smoking some of that good BC bud. You can simply buy them here and sell them there if you're an unethical person looking to make a buck. Ban all ya want, we'll sell you more.

As for that nonsense you posted at the end, come on!! What good is the gun if I have it locked in a safe when I need it most?

And if its lying on the table next to me while I sleep (which it is), my dog is going to wake up and go gonzo a long time before a crook can get up to my room and break down the door to get it. It'll be in my hand a long time before it gets stolen. You know damn well if it's stolen, it'll be when I'm not there.

[benEzra]

22. So make 'em all as illegal as heroin and cocaine...

that'll make them vanish from your inner cities faster than...oh, wait, that didn't work, did it?

[iverglas]

25. please do offer your research

How much cocaine and heroin is stolen from people in lawful possession of it who have left it lying around unsecured?

How many firearms does the average firearm addict consume in a week?

C'mon, build that analogy for us, won't you?

[Therealhelmetcase]

27. Here we go again...

Thanks for proving the point! Firearms aren't consumable, one criminal with a firearm can commit many crimes, and pass it along to another criminal. If anything, it's harder to get guns out of circulation than drugs.

Iverglas, you have any positive instances of prohibitionism? Be it drugs, prostitution, booze, guns, porn, whatever...deny the public a commodity it wants and the only thing you do is create a profit motive and a black market that benefits the people unscrupulous enough to supply what the public demands.

You seem bent on the idea that crooks get their guns by stealing them. Don't want my gun to get stolen? Then LET ME KEEP IT WITH ME!!!

[benEzra]

30. As I said,

How much cocaine and heroin is stolen from people in lawful possession of it who have left it lying around unsecured?

How many firearms does the average firearm addict consume in a week?

C'mon, build that analogy for us, won't you?

As I said, making them as illegal as heroin and cocaine--e.g., NO CIVILIAN POSSESSION ALLOWED AT ALL, which is slightly beyond the current proposal--would magically make the trade in illegal firearms go away, wouldn't it? Just like it did for diacetyl morphine and cocaine. (Well, I should have said cannabis instead of cocaine, since cocaine is technically Schedule II in the U.S., but you get my drift.)

And unlike heroin, a gun can be used more than once, meaning your hypothetical firearm user only has to visit the illegal gun dealer once, instead of going weekly...

[jody]

8. At least peace officers and criminals can still possess handguns.

What percent of Canadian criminals charged with possessing a handgun are actually convicted and what is the typical punishment?

[iverglas]

11. you're asking Dolomite?

That's just weird. What's Dolomite, google?

[Dolomite]

19. Ask Googlemite®!

I honestly don't know what the typical punishment is for carrying an illegal handgun in Canada.

I don't know what it is here either - but if you're a celebrity or rich - it ain't much.

[jody]

13. Fascinating letters from Canadians re proposed ban on handguns.

"Martin's handgun ban is the most non-sensical thing I've seen the Feds do in a very long time."

[Endangered Specie]

17. What is the situation with rifles and shotguns in canada?

[Indy Lurker]

18. Long gun conversion kit

I'm not sure on the availbility of long guns in Canada, but if they are availiable, you could always use this handy conversion kit to make a shot gun concealable.

[Macman44]

24. Every antigun politician

is cringing at this article as it is confirming what their nemesis, the NRA, has been saying all along. But you know what? They will just claim it won't happen in the US while they are trying to ban .50BMG rifles. Hypocrites all.

[Therealhelmetcase]

28. No kidding

I was just saying that the other day...it always sounded hyperbolic when the NRA trumpeted that line, but it turned out to be true!! Confiscation really did follow registration.

[fenian2000]

31. Waste? Mismanagement?

"....Auditor General Sheila Fraser has sharply criticized the waste and mismanagment that have pervaded the registry."

It cost $1 billion (!!!) to run a gun registry? Guess there must have been some waste indeed!