Company official confirms ID nuclear plant plans scuttled

[bananas]

As Al Gore said a number of times, these things are just too expensive.

http://www.montanasnewsstation.com/Global/story.asp?S=7781348&nav=menu227_7

Company official confirms ID nuclear plant plans scuttled

Associated Press - January 27, 2008 10:04 PM ET

PAYETTE, Idaho (AP) - An official of MidAmerican Nuclear Energy confirms his company has decided to end its pursuit of a nuclear energy plant in southwest Idaho.

In a message posted on the Iowa company's Web site Sunday, Bill Fehrman said that after due diligence, MidAmerican Nuclear concluded it does not make economic sense to pursue the Payette County project at this time.

<snip>

"Based on MidAmerican Energy Holdings Company's commitment to provide customers with safe, reliable, reasonably priced and environmentally conscious energy, we are disappointed that the present economics of building the next generation of nuclear power plants are not in our customers' best interests," Fehrman said.

<snip>

Many at the meeting had concerns about the availability of water. Payette is a high desert town tied to farming and located near the confluence of the Snake and Payette rivers.

The proposed reactor would use an estimated 25,000 acre-feet of water annually, more than a quarter of the water stored in Lucky Peak Reservoir near Boise, Fehrman said then.

<snip>

[GliderGuider]

1. This is a good example of how I expect nuclear planning to come undone

Economics is the Achilles heel of nuclear power, especially as we head into a global depression.

[NNadir]

12. Have you ever looked at the busbar cost of nuclear energy?

I guess not.

Economics is the strength of nuclear power, particularly when one includes external costs.

If, in fact, the external cost of energy were included in all economic decisions - as it should be - I think, every single dangerous fossil fuel industry would collapse in a heap of ash. Under those circumstance, there would be only nuclear power plants operating.

[phantom power]

2. The other interesting thing about this article is the dog that *didn't* bark.

That is to say, there was no mention of building something else instead. In fact, if you put that together with this statement:

"The decision was based on the economics of building a nuclear plant and not on whether the site near Payette was suitable, Fehrman said.

"We at MidAmerican Energy Holdings Company, the parent of MidAmerican Nuclear Energy Company, continue to believe that nuclear energy must be an important part of the nation's energy future," Fehrman said in the statement."

It makes me wonder if the subtext here is that Payette can't afford new energy, period. That is certainly our future, if GG's model holds true.

[IDemo]

4. Surely you're aware this was not about powering Payette, ID alone?

Payette is a small farming community near the Oregon border. It's extremely unlikely they could even afford a utility grade wind tower on their own. MidAmerican Energy is a Berkshire Hathaway company owned by Warren Buffet. The money for this venture was not going to be coming from farmers and food product workers.

[phantom power]

5. Good information. Still, my question applies regardless of who is funding it.

[IDemo]

7. As to whether the community can afford it, or the Western region of the grid?

The statement "makes me wonder if the subtext here is that Payette can't afford new energy, period" sounds as if you are not aware that projects such as this are intended to serve a broad region of the grid, not just a local area. The costs would ultimately be spread over a wide customer base and a number of utilities (in addition to Idaho Power), dependent on grid administration.

There is currently one other commercial nuclear project still under consideration in Idaho, in a much more remote area:
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/071004/0310706.html

[phantom power]

9. There are at least two aspects to economic viability:

One is when the investors ask "will the market justify our investment." That gets into questions like "can customers afford the rates we would have to charge?" As you pointed out, maybe "customers" == "The Northwestern US." Another aspect is that maybe the investors are asking themselves "can *we* afford this?"

I suspect the most likely question is the first one. Regardless of who "the customers" are, my question is: if these customers can't afford the rates to justify a nuclear plant, I wonder what they can afford? The article doesn't say. Perhaps nothing?

However, given the recent condition of the world's economy, I think the second question isn't completely irrelevant either. Investors get more skittish in bad economies, for their own personal reasons. Their assets are generally in The Market, one way or another.

So, no matter which road we take, we get back to GG's scenario: is the faltering world economy making investment in all forms of energy less viable? Are we entering the regime of receding horizons?

[losthills]

14. Could it be they don't really need a new power plant?

And never did in the first place?

[phantom power]

15. sure. a bunch of coal plants were scuttled for the same reason. they were surplus.

[losthills]

3. It's a perfect site for solar energy.

And that's the way they'll go.
Because they have common sense....

[Systematic Chaos]

6. You said it for the lulz, right?

:rofl:

Right?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[losthills]

8. Nuclear power doesn't pass the common sense test

anymore, when there are better alternatives....

[NNadir]

11. Better alternatives? What planet do you live on?

Oh wait, I know, you live on the planet where chanting the word "solar, solar, solar, solar," creates an exajoule of wind energy, the energy itself being derived from the blowing of blowhards who cannot think, read, or comprehend.

I love it when our fundies pretend that numbers are all imaginary.

You cannot and will not be able to produce a single shred of evidence that the so called "alternatives" have even kept pace with the growth of dangerous fossil fuel energy.

And why is that?

Because like 100% of the world's fundie anti-nukes, you couldn't care less about dangerous fossil fuel war, dangerous fossil fuel weapons, dangerous fossil fuel terrorism and dangerous fossil fuel waste.

There is NOT ONE anti-nuke on this website who can demonstrate a renewable form of energy that has replaced dangerous fossil fuels. I, on the other hand can easily demonstrate that every single nuclear plant that has been shut by public ignorance - EVERY SINGLE ONE - has been replaced by dangerous fossil fuels.

Ignorance KILLS.

[losthills]

13. Earth. Have you ever been there?

Stop by for a visit sometime....

[NNadir]

17. Well, yeah. That's where I learned about the real numbers. Since I know math...

and you don't, I also learned about the complex numbers, sometimes called the "imaginary numbers."

And speaking of imaginary numbers, I imagine that in your imaginative imaginings, 8.16 < 6.588 > 86.41.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/page/trends/table1.html

You are <em>against</em> the nation's largest, by far, form of climate change gas free energy.

The fact is on the planet <em>earth</em> - which is far removed from fundie land even as fundie land threatens it - their are <em>rational</em> numbers, which are precisely the kinds of numbers ignored by irrational people.

Now, say 55 "Hail Amorys," 75 "Our PV systems" and go on pretending that 6 is 9.

The fact is, bub, the little fundie set has its way. The planet is fucked beyond belief. I would say "live with it," but it rains on the just and unjust alike, and it far more likely that we are all going to <em>die</em> with it.

[losthills]

18. You forgot two important points:

1) Exajoules
2) Rats' Asses

You're slipping.....

[bananas]

19. BWAHAHAHA - you even screw up your math when you try to insult people

and then you just look like a fool.

"I also learned about the complex numbers, sometimes called the "imaginary numbers."

BWAHAHAHA!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Dogmudgeon]

20. FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_number">Imaginary Numbers (Wikipedia)

http://www.math.toronto.edu/mathnet/answers/imaginary.html">Do ``Imaginary Numbers`` Really Exist? (U.Toronto)

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ImaginaryNumber.html">Imaginary Number (Wolfram MathWorld)

http://www.simonsingh.net/i.html">Imaginary Number (Simon Singh)

They are also used in the design of windplant propellers, electrical generators, resonance and noise control, as well as many aspects of semiconductor (e.g., photovoltaic cell) design. Modern acoustic theory and the mathematics of music depends on the use of imaginary numbers in Fourier transform computation.

--p!

[losthills]

21. wow! update your journal to commemorate your idiocy....

--p! is for propaganda.
Ask your boss for a cookie....

[Dogmudgeon]

23. Is that a peace sign, or are you just glad to see me?

And to think, I was simply trying to inform Bananas that imaginary numbers really DO exist. Perhaps "losthills" is for lost temper, hmmm?

I wonder what kind of impression you and Bananas make on people who are uncommitted when they first read this forum.

My boss? Oh, that "paid shill" nonsense again.

--p!

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dogmudgeon]

26. The Imaginary Number Institute of America is all-volunteer

And if you haven't noticed already, I don't post press releases from corporations, either. That includes energy corporations of all kinds.

--p!

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dogmudgeon]

28. Yes, it's probably time to change that avatar.

Maybe a tasteful graphic of Yosemite Sam.

--p!

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dogmudgeon]

30. You're angry at people in low-paying jobs now?

Not everybody in this world gets to have a high-paying, creatively-fulfilling job. Lots of people work in crappy jobs just to survive. They don't deserve to be hated and ridiculed for it.

You should really calm down a little. This all started over me posting an FYI about imaginary numbers. I did not do it out of spite -- it really was a simple FYI. And I know Bananas and NNadir don't always see eye-to-eye, but if Bananas didn't know about imaginary numbers, I don't think anyone would disapprove of him/her reading up on the subject, especially not NNadir.

--p!

[bananas]

33. Stop! Stop! It hurts!

I'm laughing so hard it hurts!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[bananas]

31. BWAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA HAHAHAHA HAHAHA!!!!!!!!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
You don't even realize what's so funny!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Dogmudgeon]

32. Oh, actually, I do realize what's funny

Just because I don't ridicule people for not being like me -- or for not agreeing with what I think -- doesn't mean I lack a sense of humor.

--p!

[bananas]

34. Yeah right

and now you're telling us you don't ridicule people the way NNadir does.
Wowee, there's a step up.

[NickB79]

36. I don't get it

My math teacher was teaching us about imaginary numbers in 11th grade. Has America's educational system really slipped this badly that people don't understand basic mathematical principles?

[bananas]

41. NNadir and Pigwidgeon must've flunked high school math

because neither of them understands the difference between complex numbers and imaginary numbers.

[Systematic Chaos]

42. Well then, what exactly is it?

Has it all changed since 1986 when I was a high school senior?

[hunter]

43. We should have some lessons on irrational numbers too...

But who the hell cares about pi, anyways?

22/7 was always good enough for schoolwork, and 355/113 was always good enough for engineering.

[diane in sf]

24. Energy conservation is faster and cheaper than building any kind of new plant.

Maybe other areas are getting smart enough to follow the California method of paying utility companies to conserve energy. We use less energy per capita than any other state. If the same standards were applied nationally that would be a hell of a lot of power plants of any kind that would never have to be built.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/electricity/us_per_capita_electricity_2005.html

[NickB79]

10. Idaho is the "perfect site" for solar?

LOL.

[losthills]

16. Here you go, Genius:

http://media.cleantech.com/1643/sopogy-plans-idaho-solar-thermal-plant

Sopogy plans Idaho solar thermal plant
August 22, 2007

The trial will demonstrate how the Honolulu company's system performs in a northern climate, generating power on a utility grid scale.
Honolulu's Sopogy says it plans to subject its solar thermal technology to a northern climate, announcing that it would build a 50 kilowatt test plant in Idaho.

The company's concentrating solar power facility will go up at the Avista Clean Energy Test Site in Rathdrum, Idaho.

Avista, a Spokane-based electric and natural gas utility, created the test site to allow for deployment and testing of emerging renewable energy technologies.

Sopogy said its MicroCSPTM technology is designed to provide thermal energy as process heat, generate electricity, or provide air conditioning in areas with the right solar conditions.

"This is an exciting step toward helping to accelerate distributed generation and wider use of renewable energy," said Darren Kimura, president and CEO of Sopogy.

[NickB79]

35. Wow, a 50 kW test plant, oh my

And 50 kW is at peak production. Average production will be approximately 20 kW when you factor in things like clouds, rain, snow, nighttime, etc.

I live in Minnesota, roughly the same latitude and climate as Idaho. When the sun shines for 10 hours a day in winter and your panels are covered in 2 feet of snow, that's hardly "perfect" for solar power.

[losthills]

37. Have you ever been to Idaho?

Do yourself a favor and do some research...

[NickB79]

38. Pretty close, I was in Whitefish, Montana

Back in 1994. Whitefish is located close to the Idaho and Canadian border.

[losthills]

44. Northern Idaho has 210 days of sun, per year.

http://climate.fizber.com/Idaho-climate.html

That's above average for the US as a whole.
Average days of sunshine per year for the US is 205.

[NickB79]

45. And how many hours per day in winter?

As a child, I would walk to the bus in Dec. when the sun was just rising, and it would be setting by 5pm as I got home from after-school activities. On sunny days, the sun was quite low and weak on the horizon. Last I checked, our latitude hasn't changed, and our latitude is very similar to Idaho's.

[losthills]

46. Enough to make it economically sensible.

"The company said many areas of the Northwest have long days and clear summer skies and a summer daytime peaking load, which it said is an ideal condition for its system.

The highest output of the Sopogy plant is expected to coincide with the peak demands of the utility's high summer daytime load.

The initial phase of the test deployment will begin in mid-September, with full deployment targeted for the summer of 2008."

http://media.cleantech.com/1643/sopogy-plans-idaho-solar-thermal-plant

....

Compliment this system with wind power, and it's win, win for everybody.

[diane in sf]

22. Quite a bit of Eastern Washington/Idaho is fairly arid and has a lot of sunny days.

We run pholtovoltaic and solar water heating installations here in the fog belt of SF just fine.

[hatrack]

39. Well, yes, if you're talking about the Snake River Plain

It's high desert terrain, not the dissimilar from eastern Washington or Oregon, or northern Nevada. Quite toasty in the summer.

[IDemo]

40. Southern Idaho would be ideal for solar between ~April and September

Anytime after that would tend to be a bit unreliable, more often for cloud cover than snow covered panels.

Of course, the snow year we are having this season would definitely include snow covered panels as well.