I don't care if Kerry's campaign sucks!

[eileen_d]

Seriously, folks... I'm still for Kerry, a man with a solid record as a Democrat in the Senate and loads of foreign and domestic policy knowledge and experience. Yet he is apparently not getting the results (or the media bounce) that Dean is getting.

I've been to Dean's site, I've read stuff about him here at DU -- and I still would prefer to see Kerry in the White House over Dean. Oh, but you say Kerry's campaign sucks compared to Dean's. Well, I don't care if Dean's campaign starts making gold out of straw, it's still just a CAMPAIGN. I want to vote for a PERSON, not a CAMPAIGN. I want a pitcher, not a belly-itcher.

Yeah I would vote for Dean if he gets the nomination, but I would still be disappointed that the best Democratic candidate didn't win.

[blm]

1. It's like choosing Perot over Clinton.

"Let's try a revolution with a guy who's really a centrist, and let's take the REAL Democrat value candidate down."

[polpilot]

68. If Perot were to have won they'd still be ..JOBS....in this country!!!!!!!

I didn't know you were a Perot supporter?

Dean '04...

[Feanorcurufinwe]

2. Dean is the front-runner

so the rest of us should just give up. lol

Not only was Clinton not the front-runner in '92 - but he went on to lose Iowa and New Hampshire on his way to the nomination and the Presidency.

[jeter]

5. But Clinton is from the south

Kerry can't lose NH. If he does he's finished. Even Kerry supporters must see this.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

7. Kerry is going to win the nomination.

I'm sure you wish he would just go away, lol.

[paulk]

67. Why does Kerry have to win New Hampshire?

Seriously. I keep seeing this and I don't understand the reasoning.
Is it "favorite son"? The same argument could be made for Dean. In fact, even more so, as New Hampshire has a lot more in common with Vermont than Mass. If Kerry gets blown out, yes, then I could see it damaging him badly - but if he can get Dean's current huge lead down to single digits, then he could pull Clinton's "comeback kid" strategy.

The real kicker will be S.C. This is where Dean's vulnerable. A big loss in the south will negate any momentum he may have gathered in N.H. - and then the whole game is still up for grabs going into super Tuesday.

It's quite likely we'll have three different winners after Iowa, N.H. and S.C. - with the strongest 2nd and 3rd place finishers looking strongest as the primaries really start to heat up.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

70. Dean losing SC isn't at all an upset for him

It's expected that Dean won't win SC...Clark and Edwards have a strong battle for that state. Losing it won't hurt Dean even a little bit.

[paulk]

72. Of course Dean is not expected to win S.C.

That wasn't my point.

It depends on how badly he does. One of the criticisms of Dean is that, as a northeasterner, he can't win in the south. If he does poorly enough in S.C., this criticism will gain in credibility.

Clark and Edwards have to be considered favorites in S.C., but Dean can't afford a 5th or 6th place finish.

[deutsey]

3. Good for you

I hope you're volunteering for his campaign.

What won me over to Dean wasn't some cult of personality around him, by the way. What got me to start my own Dean Meetup was the energy and enthusiasm I saw in the volunteers. I have never seen that before in political campaigns and I wanted to be a part of it. I hope you have the same experience with Kerry.

[helleborient]

4. Same here (n/t)

[eileen_d]

6. I'm glad your meetup was a good experience

It says lots about the volunteers, but what does it say about Dean? I'm not suggesting it says anything negative about him... just that in the end it doesn't really say anything at all.

[helleborient]

8. It says that he caught the attention...

Of others who disagree with the Bush administration enough to want to work to oust it.

Only the Kucinich campaign has come close to garnering the same individual attention so far here.

I want a candidate that can capture the public's attention and respect enough to win the election...this is what I see in the campaign. Defeating Bush is principle #1 for a pragmatist like me in this election.

[deutsey]

13. Exactly

I was about as close as you could get to leaving the Democratic Party (after being an early Kerry supporter who had grown tired of his voting record between late 2001 and into 2002 and with the way the Dems in general had been rolling over for Bush). Dean's volunteers (all inspired by what Dean was saying and doing) got me to look into why Dean said he was running. He could be the world's most popular man and if I didn't like what he was saying, I wouldn't be a volunteer myself.

I agree with Dean on many things and I like how he tells people that he isn't going to solve all the problems in the country if we vote for him. WE are going to save this country through an energized, revitalized democracy and he's getting people involved like no other candidate that I see (Kucinich comes close, I suppose). As a Democrat who has voted since 1984 (when I cast my first ballot for Mondale), I've grown tired of campaigns that were dominated by the more hardcore party faithful and the rest of us were just expected to send money and vote on election day.

As the Baltimore Sun observes today:

Simply, Howard Dean is running the most radical campaign in a generation. The former Vermont governor's political team is reinventing how campaigns are run, rejecting a decade-long trend toward near-Orwellian campaign centralization (which has reached its apotheosis in the Bush administration) and trading that control for a more energized group of supporters.
http://www.sunspot.net/news/opinion/oped/bal-pe.dean09nov09,0,7897853.story?coll=bal-oped-headlines

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. It does seem that most of Dean's support is based on this

more than anything about Dean himself or his positions. It's all about being part of something, doing what's 'hip', going along with the crowd, a fashion statement instead of a policy statement.

I'm a Kerry supporter because I believe he is the best man for the Presidency, not because I want to be 'cool'.

[helleborient]

10. Complete disagreement here...

I won't talk at length about John Kerry's "hip" jet-skis, bomber jackets, hunting in Iowa, etc...or getting the jaw fixed to "look the part."

[Feanorcurufinwe]

18. So you are saying it isn't fashionable to support Dean?

[helleborient]

30. Supporting Dean isn't a fashion statement (n/t)

[RevolutionStartsNow]

34. Yeah, but you should see...

the cool Dean t-shirts I just bought! LOL.

[deutsey]

39. Aw, dude, no way! Kewel!

:silly:

[RevolutionStartsNow]

41. Um, hey,

that's "dudess" to you!

[deutsey]

43. You know...

I knew there was a basis for my :loveya: feelings for you!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

44. Put your money where your heart is

Meet me in Iowa, baby! :)

[deutsey]

46. I'll see you there...

I'll be the guy wearing a Dean button. :crazy:

[helleborient]

49. And coat, hat, and gloves...BRRRRRRRRR!!!!

I'll be there, too!

[RevolutionStartsNow]

50. When are you both going? And where?

Trying to make my final plans...

[helleborient]

59. The weekend of January 10-11

And I'm going wherever they send me. I've registered, as well as my wife and a couple of other Dean supporters who will probably come along with us. The campaign says they will be back in touch closer to the date.

I live in central Illinois so it's about a 3-4 hr. trip to be in Iowa.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

76. I just checked my American Airlines miles

looks like I can get a free ticket...

not sure what weekend I'm going, probably 10-11 also. I am working with someone on staff in Iowa, the woman who was our local coordinator until the campaign lured her out there.

Hope we DUers can meet up there. Let's keep in touch about this.

[helleborient]

79. Definitely, I agree...

Will post more when I know my specific plans!

[DrFunkenstein]

51. I Wouldn't Say It's Hipness

Although there is clearly some mass identification going on, I think it is more than trendiness. I understand where you are coming from because I felt wonderful in NYC in February with all those people opposing the war.

But I do need to clear some things up (we promised each other). Kerry doesn't jet-ski. That's recreation. Kerry windsurfs which is a sport, and a demanding one at that.

And the jaw comment is a low blow. There have been plenty of confirmations that it was a medical procedure, not cosmetic, to fix a constant clicking in his jaw.

[helleborient]

80. Sorry about the jaw...repeating old attacks on Kerry unnecessarily...

My point about the jet-ski, and should have been windsurfing...is that I spoke with a student who attended the national convention of Democratic college students...and she was bothered that Kerry's film he sent seemed to focus on how "hip" he was with the windsurfing, motorcycling, etc....instead of on issues. She felt like he was talking down to them and not giving them credit for being intelligent about issues and policies.

[indigo32]

11. LOL

Howie strikes me as rather un-hip actually.

[deutsey]

14. Want to be "cool"?

Man, I've seen you twist and distort the meaning of so many things, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see you do it to something I've written.

Thanks for the laugh.

And believe me, it was far from "cool" to be a Dean supporter earlier this year. The mainstream media dismissed him as did many here on DU and other poltical hotspots.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

22. You became a supporter because of the enthusiasm you saw in his volunteers

rather than because you thought he was the best man for the job.

You didn't say you thought he had the personality to be President.

You didn't say he has the best policies of any candidate.

You didn't say you found him inspiring.

You said:


"What won me over to Dean wasn't some cult of personality around him, by the way. What got me to start my own Dean Meetup was the energy and enthusiasm I saw in the volunteers. I have never seen that before in political campaigns and I wanted to be a part of it. I hope you have the same experience with Kerry."

[deutsey]

27. Shall I submit a detailed report for your perusal?

Say 20 or 30 pages complete with citations? If not, then I suggest you read my second post, the one titled "Exactly". Next time, I guess I'll try to cover every single motivation underlying my reasons for doing something.

You're hilarious!

PS: Edited for spelling or else next we'll hear is that Dean is the cause of illiteracy in America or something.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

29. LOL

Somehow I don't think it will help... :)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. Look, you said it, now you are getting on my case for quoting you.

Usually I only get demonized here when I quote Dean...

[deutsey]

38. Well, read my other post

as I suggest. Jeesh. Are there now rules in this forum where posters must make sure that every post is comprehensive and notarized?

:silly:

[LuminousX]

15. To be cool? Dean is 'cool'?

Wow, that is the oddest thing I've heard so far coming from a non-Dean supporter.

Dean was the voice that could be heard decrying Bush's push for war. It was a beacon to which many people were drawn in a time when all we heard was how Bush was doing a good job and was being a good President for waging an illegal war. Dean continued beating up on anyone who supported Bush's illegal war. Many of us loved that because we had grown tired of no real vocal opposition to Bush on the issue.

Many of us thought 'a Democratic liberal from Vermont? Okay, I'll ride this train until he gets socialist tattooed on him by the press' but then we discovered he was a fiscal conservative. It was like finding a gold mine in your backyard. Here was a person, not from, as the GOP love to call it 'Tax-achussets' but who was still New England. He supported civil unions. He talked about how our dependence on oil screwed with our foreign policy, clouding our 'vision' of the world.

The number one thing I found out about him, is although he is stubborn, he does negotiate. He will fight for his position tooth-and-nail but he is willing to compromise or totally change his position if evidence dictates otherwise. That is a key for me in supporting someone. I don't trust idealogues from any side of the political spectrum.

Give me someone with a strong opinion but who is willing to listen to other options.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

19. wow have you missed the point of the Dean campaign

Please don't mistake enthusiasm for lack of knowledge or depth. The Dean volunteers I have met are the most committed and informed group of people that I've ever encountered.

This is not about just being hip or cool, it's about spending your free time writing letters, printing flyers, knocking on doors, attending meetings, arguing policy points, responding to media inaccuracies...not to mention the thousands who have committed to traveling to another state to help the campaign.

That's a lot of work just to be "cool", don't you think?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

25. I won't insult you by stating that you missed my point

because I'm sure you actually did get it, lol.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

26. I got your point, but it was totally inaccurate

Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

Meanwhile, if Dean is making partcipation in the democratic process "hip", then more power to him!

[deutsey]

31. Good point!

:thumbsup:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. You say my point is inaccurate, then affirm it.

lol

[RevolutionStartsNow]

40. I affirm it every day

by donating my free time to working for the Dean campaign.

I affirmed it last quarter when I donated $2000 to the Dean campaign. I have my own business and am the sole earner in my family of 4, this is not a small donation for us.

I will affirm it again in January when I leave sunny California to travel to freezing cold Iowa to walk precincts and talk about Howard Dean. By then I will beyond "cool", I will be downright cold!

You have surely mistaken the incredible enthusiasm of the Dean supporters for some kind of pop-culture craze. I would believe that if I didn't see the results, in the polls, in the fundraising, in the rallies, in the letters to IA and NH.

And you know what? It's okay to have fun while doing these things. This is serious serious business but I am having fun because I am filled with HOPE.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

53. BRAVO!!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

55. Dean may end up in the White House.

And we will see massive disillusionment from the idealists who put him there when he turns out to be the person he has always been.

It would not be a good thing for the long-term health of the Democratic party.

[deutsey]

56. Thank you, Jeane Dixon

.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Dean doesn't have a chance after all.

Will the Emperor be able to ride naked all the way to the White House or will someone mention he has no clothes? Only time will tell.

[deutsey]

62. Yes, time has a way of telling such things

:shrug:

[eissa]

69. Wow! Amerikav60

With supporters like you, we can't lose! :yourock: (that's what us hip and cool Dean supporters are like anyway, right?!)

[deutsey]

37. I knew I should have warned you to post a 100-page

dissertation on what the democratic process is. :eyes:

[RevolutionStartsNow]

48. Oops, I forgot...

to say that I am doing all of this because

I want a balanced budget and a sane tax policy
I want a responsible foreign policy that isn't based on fear
I want real protection from terrorists, not hysterical laws that target Arabs
I want fully funded educational programs, especially for special ed (my nephew is a special ed student, does that make me a "special interest group?")
I want environmental laws that will protect our land, not just have cute names
I want real immigration reform

and many many more things that Dean offers...

I know a lot of the other candidates offer these same things, and even some better stances on a few positions, but more than anything,

I WANT TO BEAT BUSH

[nocreativename]

23. I like Dean the most Becuase and I don't like Kerry the Most beacuse

I start this with I'm not for Dean to be "Cool". It will take an army like Deans to fight Bush Inc. where's Kerry's army.

I like him for:
The Talk of Balanced Budget
Health Care Plan
Trade Policy
The War
Gun Rights
Gay Rights
and he has brought new people to the process.


I don't like Kerry Becuase:
He talks about about standing up but he's votes in the last 3 years do not show that. War, Tax Cuts, environmental votes...

The Tax cuts, I truely don't believe that the US will get out of the Bush economic slump if any of the tax cuts are left in place.

He has not tried to bring new people

and he's boring and thinks we should just hand him the nomination

But, if he gets it I will vote for him over bush but I will not give money or help in anyway. There are too many other races going on here to give money to someone like Kerry.

[cindyw]

75. I had to laugh at your post

Tax cuts and environment? Are you sure your supporting the right candidate. I'll match Kerry's tax cuts votes and his environmental record against Dean's any day. I'll campaign for Dean if you can prove Kerry voted yes on the Bush tax cuts or that Dean has been better on the environment!

[9119495]

64. Not for me

I believe Dean's ed, health, foreign policy, and energy plans are best for the country of anyone running. I'd stick with Kerry on energy and foreign policy but not ed or health.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

28. Well said Eileen

good post(s). I just look at the candidate and the record(s). Kerry is far and away the best. I don't care how he runs his campaign other than to demonstrate this fact. Geez. Gore didn't run a "good" campaign either and I didn't hold that against him.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

42. One of the neat things about the Dean campaign

is that it's NOT about Dean, it's about us. We like his policies, and think he will do a stand-up job in the WH, but the campaign has become what politics should be: a community working towards a goal.

[CWebster]

54. The candidate does have to instill enough enthusiam

to inspire people to vote.

[sventvkg]

12. Makes little difference..You will support Dean when he wins

Kerry isn't going to...However if by some miracle he does I'll support him..

[eileen_d]

17. Wow - thanks for telling me my opinion makes little difference!

It's all warm and fuzzy inside that Dean machine, isn't it!

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE... YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED

[Cocoa]

16. I didn't even know Jordan's name until now

I still don't know the name of Gepardt's campaign manager, and I'm leaning toward Gephardt.

[Pez]

20. -=Kerry-2K4=-

there is one person i trust out of everyone running to clean up the mess BUSH INC. has made and put this country on the road to progress-- john kerry. the man is brilliant, and i'm working hard to make sure he is the next president of the united states.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. Aren't the Iraq War and the Patriot Act part of the mess?

:shrug:

[reprehensor]

21. More killing, please...

Kerry needs to use a bow & arrow to take down a buck, slit its throat, and drink the still-hot blood to garner my vote.

Killing pheasants is for weenies.

[Padraig18]

24. LOL!

I want to see him kill a wild boar with a knife and his bare hands only--- then he'll get my vote. :P

[reprehensor]

32. But seriously...

Other Democratic presidential aspirants also have missed votes, but to a lesser degree than Gephardt. Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) failed to add his voice in 63 instances this year, 34 percent of Senate votes. (Not included in this total are two votes he missed in February due to prostate surgery.)

Last Thursday, when the Senate considered the House version of President Bush’s global AIDS initiative, Kerry used a floor debate to decry a provision in the legislation that required 33 percent of funds to be spent on abstinence education.

“We should not tie the president’s hands ... I will support an amendment to strike this earmark.”

Later in the day, Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) proposed just such an amendment. Kerry missed the vote on the proposal, which failed 45-52.

Original...
http://www.hillnews.com/news/052003/gephardt.aspx

[deutsey]

35. Only if he's riding his Harley while doing it

:eyes:

[DrFunkenstein]

52. What's With All The Cheap Shots?

We don't go around talking about his impromptu ride on the back of a truck. We know about it, but we don't pull the kind of crap you guys do on a regular basis (at least I don't).

[LuminousX]

57. I agree, totally unnecessary and totally ineffective

Am I supposed to not vote for Kerry because he rides a harley? WTF?

[deutsey]

60. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying

I have a lot of pent up hostility towards Harleys. It's that unique sound they make, you know? Anything that makes that kind of sound must be evil. :eyes:

As I said to Dr. Funk, the image of Kerry on a Harley wrestling wild boars was funny to me. If you took that as a cheap shot...I don't know what to say, really. I'll just keep my humor to myself.

[deutsey]

58. I thought what they said was funny

and I chipped in. Sorry, the mental image of Kerry wrestling a wild boar made me laugh.

If someone said the same thing about Dean I'd laugh at that too.

PS: I thought the truck thing with Dean WAS hilarious. He wasn't hurt, so what was there not to laugh about? Even the Dean campaign made light of it on their blog.

[Padraig18]

63. I thought that was hilarious, too.

Can anyone imagine Pickle's hubby doing something like that? BTW, Kerry folks, it's not a sin to laugh at parody and satire, even if it's about your guy. I've seen some "Ouch!"/zinger cartoons about Dean that were funny. :hi:

[helleborient]

66. Yes, I agree, you don't (n/t)

[PROGRESSIVE1]

45. Thank You eileen_d! I will support whoever the nominee is....

though I am a Wes Clark Supporter! Sometimes I feel that if you are on DU and don't support Howard Dean, you don't belong here.

I glad to see that someone is staying with their choice regaurdless of what others say!

[deutsey]

47. Submit! Submit! Submit!

Sponsored by Svengalis for Dean

[NNadir]

65. Campaigning Skill counts. We need, I say NEED, to win!

For me, the Democrat who is most qualified to lead this country is Al Gore. Even so, I do not want Gore to enter the race, because his campaign skills were not strong enough to overcome a dweeb liar like Bush in an unambiguous way.

If Gore had campaigned like Dean, there would have been no questions.

I would have been a strong Kerry supporter were it not for the war vote; which made me evaluate both Dean and Kucinich, the only candidates who unambigously and inflexibly opposed the war. I found Kucinich disturbing and weak, so I took a chance on Dean. In those early days it was definitely a long shot, but the campaign drew me in and gave me faith that we could indeed fight back. That faith motivated me to hope.

Kerry should build a campaign on hope, a campaign with positive values, not negative ones. If Kerry surprises us by recovering and becoming the nominee, I will not hesitate to support him with time and money. I think he's a fine man with mostly impeccable Democratic credentials. That said, he has lapsed into photo-ops, sullen carping, and is devoting less of his time to emphasizing his own positives as opposed to the supposed deficiencies of Dean. This will not work, neither in the primaries nor in the general election.

No candidate will be perfect, not mine, not yours, not any of them. But history will not forgive our generation if we fail to remove Bush. He is the worst threat this Republic has faced since WWII. We need someone who knows how to motivate, excite, and keep his eyes on the prize. Unless there is a rapid turnaround, Kerry doesn't seem like that guy right now. Dean on the other hand does, because he has siezed the moment. I feel he is growing in skill; growing as candidate and stretching his horizons in a positive way. Speaking only for myself, this is exactly the sort of person I want to govern our country.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

73. Dean "unambigously and inflexibly opposed the war" ?

What?

Dean:Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index2.html


Dean:"Now, I am not among those who say that America should never use its armed forces unilaterally. In some circumstances, we have no choice. In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred."
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html


Dean:"never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction."
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000395.html

Unambiguously and inflexibly opposed the war? It sounds to me like he just thinks Bush went about it the wrong way.

Dean believed Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, believed it was necessary for us to remove them, and believed the right way to do so was through the UN, or unilaterally if the UN didn't act.

That sounds like a reasonable position to me, but I don't see how it could be described as "unambigously and inflexibly opposing the war".

[blm]

89. You can post it 100 times and they won't acknowledge the truth.

So far, less than a handful of the Deanies have had the integrity to admit it openly on this forum.

[Egnever]

74. Well dang it nIether do I

His campaign can suck all it wants as far as I am concerned!

[stickdog]

77. Great.

Now if Kerry would only fire himself, the rest of us could jump on the bandwagon, too!

[Tim The Enchanter]

78. His vote for the war is too recent and it still stings

When I thought that the nation had lost it's mind in a fury of blind vengence, people like myself held quiet and private discussions about the government's handling of everything from 9-11. It was overwhelming. I never had a greater feeling of mistrust for my government or a greater feeling of alienation from mainstream America. I was one of the "unpatriotic" ones. As the Orwellian gloom spread, I decided that I would move out of the country depending on how the election went in 2004.

When Bush started talking about the threat of Iraq, I couldn't believe it. I have never witnessed a more thinly veiled plot. I and many others were sickened that the administartion was trying to push this war through with such feeble justification. The arrogance and the lies were unfathomable and frightening.

Until John Kerry voted for the war, he was at the top of my list. When he did cast that vote, I felt betrayed by him as well as the other Dems that supported Bush. It is too fresh in my memory. No one can tell me that John Kerry did not know that George Bush had every intention of carrying out his war. It was so tranparent. Why was it so clear to me and many others, but John Kerry didn't see that one coming? It fills me with such anger when he insults my intelligence with his flimsy justifications.

Howard Dean can "flip-flop" again and again, but I will still support him over Kerry because Kerry abandoned me when it really counted- when I felt most vulnerable and when my faith in this nation was hanging by a thread. Kucinich can be as "unelectable" as the bstard child of Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis, but I will support him over Kerry. Dean and Kucinich were the two candidates that brought me out of the dark and gave me hope. John Kerry underestimates the importance of his vote. It far outweighs Dean's blunders and centrist stances. He can point to Dean's faults again and again, but he will always have the shadow of the war over him.

If John Kerry were to acknowledge that he made a bad decision, I would consider supporting him. Dean may have waited too long to apologize for the Confederate flag comment, but Kerry apparently will never apologize for his vote. If he gets the nomination, I will support him, but I will not support him now.

I don't think the Kerry supporters really understand how many of us feel. I am not a blind Dean supporter- I simply will not support Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards or Lieberman. The general election will, of course, be a different story, but for now I simply can't support anyone who voted for an unjust war when I needed a leader the most.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

81. 52% of Iowans don't seem bothered by the IWR vote

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=687965

[Tim The Enchanter]

88. The Gephardt factor distorts that statistic.

Besides, I was only speaking on behalf of myself and those I personally know who share my feelings on the IWR vote. I also do not intend to conform to the opinion of Iowans.

But since you have posted a link, I offer you one in return.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/11/11/kerrys_irreversible_error/

[NewYorkerfromMass]

82. Wow. It "sucks" even more today with 2 more quitting

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-3375890,00.html

[RevolutionStartsNow]

83. 2 more quit?

Leaving to protest Jim Jordan's firing, no doubt. Wonder if others will follow.

[Tim The Enchanter]

87. The Gephardt factor distorts that statistic.

Besides, I was only speaking on behalf of myself and those I personally know who share my feelings on the IWR vote. I also do not intend to conform to the opinion of Iowans.

But since you have posted a link, I offer you one in return.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2003/11/11/kerrys_irreversible_error/

Edit: Replied to wrong post. Sorry.

[curse10]

84. I'm with ya Eileen!

:-)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

85. and I'm with you all. nt

[George_Bonanza]

86. I agree completely with Eileen

I'm glad Jim Jordan's gone. I never liked him, he was always too snippy in my opinion. Any change is good right now.

It annoys me when I hear some Dean supporters saying they like Dean because of the people who volunteered at Meetup last week, the energy in the campaign, or basically anything that doesn't have to do with the most important aspect of a presidential campaign: the fricking president-to-be. All these reasons for supporting Dean, like environment, guns, business, etc. are more or less similar to Kerry's. Even his IWR stance is more or less Kerry's, sans the vote which he was mercifully free of. So why this incredible enthusiasm for Dean, and none for Kerry, who has done many more liberal things for a much longer time than Dean? It's a goddamn snowball effect. A Dean movement began early on, spread the word like wildfire that Dean was incorruptible, and it just keeps rolling and rolling. Pretty soon, it doesn't even matter if Dean was a compromising centrist in Vermont, because you'll have tonnes of people willing to hop on because the energy of the campaign is so vibrant. And on and on it goes. It really gets frustrating that we have a president so good in campaigning yet lacking in policies, and when the time comes to hopefully replace him, many are seeking to put in their own version of the same type of president.

Four years from now, we will not care about the campaign of the president, we will care about his policies. And it is our job as voters to vote for the man with the best policies. That man is John Kerry. Blm is right. It's ironic that so many are seeking a "revolution" with a candidate who has said himself that he's not that liberal, and ran a good but centrist rule in Vermont. If you didn't get it with Clinton, how are you going to get it with Dean?

[MrSoundAndVision]

90. It's not just the campaign honey

It's the candidate: Kerry won't get us out of this illegal, filthy war. He wants to maintain some belief that the US can't afford the dent to it's world image (and self image) that an admission of guilt on the war would give: and that's not realistic foreign policy. People don't deserve to die for our image, though it would certainly be the American way to only care about image, it just isn't right.

Kucinich for president! http://www.kucinich.us