More zero tolerance idiocy.

[China_cat]

A friend of mine was telling me today about her 13 year old daughter. A good kid, never in trouble, great grades, etc. Suspended from school and threatened (so far) with prosecution. Her crime?

She took a picture of her (male) teacher who was bent over and another student had put up a hand so that from the right angle it looked like the other child had a hand on his butt and was pushing the teacher. Nothing is being done about the other child but the girl who took the picture has been charged with sexually harassing her teacher.

She won't be allowed back into school until after the 1st of the year (by which time she will have missed the 10 days allowed before being kept back...and here there is no excuses permitted after the 10 days, a straight A student who has been hospitalized for 11 school days will be kept back) which is when the decision of whether to prosecute her and (get this one) whether or not to prosecute her as an adult will be decided.

The child is terrified. Her mother is outraged. A bunch of us are going to the next school board meeting to protest this, but I gotta say that I have a feeling it's not going to do much good.

More keep 'em dumb, no matter what you have to do to accomplish it.

[kay1864]

1. If an adult had taken that picture (and talked about it)

it would indeed be sexual harassment.

So the question is not "Is this sexual harassment", but "Can a 13-year-old knowingly commit sexual harassment?"

Tough call, I dunno. But that was by no means an innocent picture.

[China_cat]

2. It's as innocent as holding up 'rabbit ears' behind you dad's head

while having a picture taken. If I had seen it framed that way, I might have taken a shot myself. His head was turned and his face wasn't in the shot.

[kay1864]

3. Not at all

If I take a picture of a woman's butt in my office (or a man's, for that matter) as they're bent over, and showed it around, I'd be in front of HR in a heartbeat.

It's not the other girl's hand that's the problem, it's the pose and the focus of the picture.

[China_cat]

4. So prosecuting a 13 year old as an adult for sexual harassment

is ok with you? Geez...it was a 'funny' by a kid who wasn't thinking, not an adult who knows better.

And she's the type of kid who, if it had been explained to her as just an inappropriate thing to do, would have deleted the picture and felt guilty about having taken it in the first place.

[kay1864]

8. Gee, now where did I say prosecuting a 13 year old was OK with me?

Read my first reply above.

[DS1]

11. IT'S A SCHOOL!!!!

Not an office, who gives a rat fuck what your HR dept thinks, they're a non-entity.

[kay1864]

14. So it's impossible for a 13-year-old to sexually harass someone then?

Because "IT'S A SCHOOL"?

[DS1]

16. No, it's not "impossible" but I'm not falling for your Hannity-style topic shifting

:hi:

[kay1864]

19. You're the one who screamed IT'S A SCHOOL, dude

:hi:

[DS1]

20. It was warranted

:P

[Pale Blue Dot]

38. Yes, it's a school.

The perfect place to teach about sexual harassment, its effects and consequences.

I'm not saying that I completely agree with the penalty, but I completely disagree that nothing important happened here.

[DS1]

66. And perhaps I misstated my opinion

I think the punishment here is crap. I think the punishment should be no more than "You have to respect your elders, don't do this again", and make them have detention for 1 or 2 days.

I'm speaking as someone who would have done the exact same thing, but kept it to myself. I'd still buy the kid a new camera if I was loaded with cash.

[China_cat]

76. For this kid...again a good kid who's never been in trouble

a public apology (without subjecting the teacher to ridicule...say something like "I did something that could have seriously embarassed Mr. X") an essay on what could or could not constitute sexual harassment and some kind of service would make sure she never did it again.

Making a criminal out of her for what was a teenage prank is just so utterly stupid.

[lligrd]

129. That Is Ridiculous

Since when is a fully clothed butt picture sexual? We all have butts and they have been the butt of jokes for an eternity. Cases like this make a joke of sexual harassment which is a truly heinous crime.

[meow2u3]

126. Some school big shots think a 4 year old can commit sexual harrassment

Moron, a little 4 year old has no concept of sexual harrassment--the kid is too innocent.

To answer your question, some 13-year-olds can do so, but only if they have a history of behavior problems. This girl did not have any behavioral history.

[TZ]

5. ummm considering the problems

schools have with teachers who molest students AND cases where students falsely accuse teachers of molestation (which happened in my neighborhood), schools HAVE to take this seriously. This picture, however innocently taken could have VERY serious consequences for the teacher down the road as well what if a well doctored image ended up on the internet?. And yes, adults get fired for this stuff everyday. A slap on the wrist won't teach this student anything. If you put your hand on a burner, its gonna burn you---important lessons are often painful.

[DS1]

10. oh horsepuckey

How do you know what will and will not teach the kid a lesson?


The kid should be getting a new camera for seeing a shot and taking it. I applaud her. It's not like she took it with the intent of causing trouble.

[Pale Blue Dot]

39. I teach this age group every day.

You clearly don't understand them.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

96. I AM part of this age group.

I'm not entirely sure which side of the proverbial fence you are on, but I'm curious about your perception of us.

[Occulus]

117. Why, look at that! No reply!

I do believe you very firmly put that teacher in his place.

I'm surprised you didn't end it with, "BUH-bye now" :silly:

[Danger Mouse]

59. Bullshit. Excessive and absurd punishment is not an important lesson.

It's draconian garbage.

[noamnety]

6. I would be pissed off if my students

were taking photos of my ass and passing them around, and I would be pissed off if the administration did nothing about it.

I think the 10 day policy on its own is stupid; it effectively expels a student for a year without a hearing if they are suspended for 10 days. I question whether you are right on a student who has been hospitalized for 11 days being held back for a full year.

A medical excuse is normally handled differently than an excused or unexcused absence in my state (I admittedly can't speak for all states), and schools are very reluctant to arbitrarily give them a reason to drop out, since their funding depends on keeping kids in school.

As for going to the school board, I think you'd have a better chance arguing that it was sexual harassment but the punishment is too severe, than trying to argue that it wasn't harassment. The point of the photo was exactly to sexually harass and demean the teacher. It wouldn't have been the same fun if it had just been a photo of his foot, right? It was the sexual aspect of it that made them enjoy it, I'm guessing.

[kay1864]

17. Excellent response, from a teacher to boot. ITA.

[China_cat]

77. Went through it with my own youngest.

He was in the hospital (and doing school work while there, even) for 15 school days. We got the notice less than 30 days before the end of the school year that he missed 10 days and would not be promoted with the rest of his class. His grades weren't stellar, but they were all passing with the lowest being a high C.

[noamnety]

84. Did you go through the appeals process?

Our school in MI also automatically drops credit after 10 absences, but then there is a credit review board you can sign up for, to appeal.

I looked up the policy for where your profile says you are, and it looks similar - that credit is automatically dropped, but can be appealed.

"# The Associate Superintendent will promptly approve or disapprove any absences in excess of the limits set above. Approval will be based on, but not limited to:

* lawful vs. unlawful
* circumstances affecting absences
* responsibility demonstrated by parent or guardian and student
* the educational record of the student
* court recommendation, if applicable.

# The decision of the Associate Superintendent may be appealed to the Constituent Board within five (5) working days by written notice. A review will be made by the Constituent Board within a reasonable time.
# The student may appeal the decision of the Constituent Board to the Charleston County School District Board of Trustees by requesting an appeal in writing within ten (10) days of receipt of the decision of the Constituent Board."

If it's a private school, that might not apply, but that seems to be the district policy.

[China_cat]

97. That's a fairly new one. There was no appeals process

at the time we went through it.

[Occulus]

118. FYI to one small part of your post

"I think the 10 day policy on its own is stupid; it effectively expels a student for a year without a hearing if they are suspended for 10 days. I question whether you are right on a student who has been hospitalized for 11 days being held back for a full year."

I believe my old high school had the same sort of policy, and I graduated in 1993. I can't remember how many days it was, but I do remember that if you missed that number of days or higher, you had to repeat the grade, or some other condition I can't at the moment recall.

My understanding at the time was that that was the case in pretty much every school district.

[XemaSab]

7. Sexual harassment is about power gradients

A student can't harass a teacher, but a teacher can harass a student.

[kay1864]

9. I partially agree with you

Power is often a factor, but not a necessary one. I can certainly sexually harass a female VP.

[XemaSab]

22. You can attempt to...

She can respond to your attempt by firing your ass.

Sort of like the teacher in the OP can respond to the attempt by reporting the student to the principal and getting her in deep shit. :shrug:

[cuke]

45. Sorry, but it's still sexual harrassment

Jailing a murderer doesn't make it not murder, and punishing the harrasser does not make it not harassment

[XemaSab]

51. Trust me.

I know my sexual harassment here. :(

[cuke]

52. I don't think you do

Maybe you're familiar with some type(s) of sexual harrassment, but obviously not all

[XemaSab]

72. What makes you such an expert that you know more than I do?

:shrug:

[cuke]

73. I didn't say I'm an expert

I just disagree with your conclusion

[noamnety]

85. Cuke is right on that one.

An employee can sexually harass a supervisor. It's covered under Title VII, and there have been legal cases where that's occurred.

http://www.workforce.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=17537&forum=54&2

[noamnety]

28. You're mistaken on that.

If, in my scenario, the boys in my class (which is a photography class, so they have cameras), were taking photos of my breasts every time I faced them, I think everyone in this discussion would understand that it would create a hostile environment for me, and that it would be considered sexual harassment. In fact, I suspect if the boys in my class zoomed in on my breasts with one of their hands positioned to pretend be grabbing it, even once, and passing it around the lunch room for kids to laugh at, people here would understand it as harassment.

In this teacher's case, they can't let those girls off the hook once with no punishment, and then the next day when a different kid does the same thing to him, punish that kid. If they don't punish the kid at all, they are sending the message to the teacher that he has no recourse when he's sexually harassed, and sending the message to kids that it's an activity that the school openly tolerates.

If it made the teacher uncomfortable, that's the defining issue. And don't kid yourself, students DO hold a lot of power in a classroom to harass teachers they don't like. When I was in junior high, one of the boys in my class used to reach out when the french teacher was walking by his desk sometimes, and run his finger up her leg, and laugh about it, and he absolutely knew what he was doing at that age. She was probably 70 years old, I doubt he found her attractive. His goal was to put her in a demeaning and embarrassing situation and make her uncomfortable by using sexual harassment.

[China_cat]

78. Wait a minute...the picture wasn't being passed around the lunch room.

In fact, this kid thought it just silly enough to SHOW TO THE TEACHER before the class was even over.

[noamnety]

108. I wasn't claiming it was, just to be clear

That was in a hypothetical of a different situation (one related to a different incident).

Even in the classroom, though - I would consider it a hostile and uncomfortable environment if the administration allowed my students to take T&A photos of me while I was teaching, even if there were no hands involved, and even if the only thing that happened with the photos was that at the end of class the students came up to show me the T&A shots they took of me that day. If it was an ongoing occurrence, it would make me uncomfortable to the point that I wouldn't want to teach there. I would expect the administration to take some sort of action (though not this) to ensure it wasn't tolerated.

I would expect the same at any job.

When I made a career change to become a teacher, I didn't give up my rights to work in a harassment-free environment.

Also, I would expect the same rules to protect a student's right to that same environment. If kids were taking T&A shots of another student without her consent and making a point of showing them to her at the end of each class, my feelings would be the same - that the administration has the responsibility to put an end to it in a decisive way. (again, not in this way)

[Occulus]

119. Do you consider a clothed ass to be a sexual object? n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

109. Exactly correct.

A teacher has fundamental power over the student's future.

A student who misbehaves can and should be kicked out of class.

[DS1]

12. If I were more into philanthropy I'd buy the kid a new camera

this is amazing. I suppose it'll be on her permanent record, too.

[noamnety]

29. Would you say the same thing

if it were a male student and a female teacher's chest?

[DS1]

30. Damn right I would

oops, I see another slipperysloper attempt

cya

[Occulus]

120. Do you consider the ass to be a sexual object? n/t

[Sanity Claws]

13. It's not sexual harassment

The photo is of a body part that is used when shoving someone. It does not give sexual delight to the pusher to hit that spot. Rather, the gradification comes from seeing a pompous ass fall.
If there was no actual touching, it sounds like the appropriate discipline would be detention and some other things. Forcing a child to miss school work is not appropriate because it could set her back in many ways.
IMHO.

[kay1864]

15. So I can take pictures of female coworkers' asses then?

And claim it's not sexual harassment?


I agree that her age figures into the situation. But your argument about body parts doesn't hold water.

[DS1]

18. You're an adult

perhaps you can use your own judgment on that question. Or do you need a list of 10,000 rules to follow before you start your day?


Talk about passive aggressive.

[kay1864]

21. Comprehend much?

Guess not.

[DS1]

24. I've figured this much out

[mainegreen]

127. !!!!!!!!!

:rofl:

Sweet Cuppin Cakes! I think I just busted a gut laughing!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. I don't comprehend.

It's a joke about pushing somebody over.

I don't get why you think that's sexy.

[Sanity Claws]

23. A fenale ass to an adult male is arousing

and claiming otherwise is not going to help. No one would believe you.

But does anyone really believe that a 13 year old girl would find the ass of an adult male teacher arousing? That somehow that was the point of the photo?
I still think the appropriate discipline is something like detention, perhaps an extra work assignment, pulling her out of activities. But missing actual schoolwork? No way is that appropriate.

[kay1864]

25. I never said the discipline was appropriate

And as a poster above (a teacher) mentioned, this is not the same as taking a picture of his foot.

[noamnety]

27. I doubt they saw it as arousing.

Sexual harassment doesn't require that the person doing the harassing gets sexually aroused. More often, it's about deliberately trying to demean or humiliate a person.

[Sanity Claws]

32. Sexual harassment means harassment on account of one's gender

This was not harassment on account of his being male. This was harassment because he was an authority figure.

[noamnety]

33. You can sexually harass someone regardless of their gender

As a way to try to humiliate them.

Taking naked photos of fellow guys in locker rooms is an example of that. The guys aren't harassing fellow guys because they are male in that instance. They themselves are male. But they are using sex as a tool to harass fellow students.

That's an extreme case compared to this, obviously, but hopefully it makes the point. The issue is whether they were harassing the person in a way that was deliberately mocking them in a way that had sexual overtones. I still contend that were this a photo of the teacher's foot, they wouldn't have bothered to even take it - not even if they were pretending to stick out their own foot and pretend tripping him.

By the age of 13, kids know that a person's ass is one of those off limits places. They get taught that by their parents, and while we all have moments of bending over in front of people, that's routine, they know that a photo of that without the person's permission is different than a photo of a person's foot.

Most girls at the age of 13 have (unfortunately) had sexual attention from adults by then. They know that men staring at their asses is different than men staring at their feet.

I'm guessing that if the girl with the camera was on the receiving end of this, if the boys were taking photos of her butt as she worked at the chalkboard, and passing them around and laughing, a few days of that and I bet the parents would be in the office demanding that the administration address the problem.

[Sanity Claws]

34. The legal definition of sexual harassment

is harssment because of gender.

[noamnety]

43. Nope.

It has to do with harassing a person in some way that is sexual, but it doesn't have to be "because of gender."

One of many examples where it's not because of gender would be boys in a locker room picking on another kid because he's a nerd. They pants him, take a photo, and post it up in a public place.

They sexually harassed him because of the position he held (nerd-boy) in their society in that case.

Another case would be folks who are arrested. If the guards force both male and female prisoners to strip just in order to humiliate them, it's sexual harassment, but not because of their gender - they are sexually harassing all prisoners regardless of gender.

I think you might be thinking of gender discrimination, which by definition would be "because of gender."

[cuke]

46. Sexual harassment is "based on" gender, not "because of" gender

Motive doesn't determine harassment. The facts do.

[datasuspect]

80. sex often involves nudity

but not all nudity is sexual.



i know you are in earnest, but the severity of your take on these issues makes you freaking hilarious.

i always follow your posts-i have much difficulty taking you serioulsy.

[noamnety]

95. I'm not seeing your point.

I mean, I get that part of your point is an ad hominem attack.

It's the other part. Nobody's claiming that they had sex, and sexual harassment doesn't require nudity. So you seem a little off topic.

[Pale Blue Dot]

36. You are splitting hairs in weird and offensive way.

Sexual harassment is very often about power. How is this different?

See my post below. I am a male teacher of 13-year-olds.

[Sanity Claws]

40. Offensive?

Huh?
I said it was harassment, just not sexual harassment. Why does it bother you so much that it is called merely harassment as opposed to sexual harassment? Why does it offend you?
Your comment below also does not emphasize the sexual element but points to disrespect and a disturbing trend of focusing on whether others are going to get similar discipline. I don't disagree. I mentioned that she should be disciplined. see my posts above.

[dsc]

75. are you kidding me?

Go to any gay bar and you will hear of ass men. I can't imagine women are any different at all in this regard.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

89. Yes.

"But does anyone really believe that a 13 year old girl would find the ass of an adult male teacher arousing? That somehow that was the point of the photo?"

Yup. 13-year-olds are just exploring sexuality; I would argue that they are MORE likely than older girls to take pictures of asses.

[Xithras]

42. It is NOT illegal to take a photograph. Even photographs of asses.

If you're in public (and an office is a public space, legally speaking), it is NOT illegal for people to photograph you. It's not illegal for people to take photos of your ass, your breasts, your feet, or any other (or all) of your body. This has been hashed out in cases time and time again, and in no case has any charge against a photographer ever stuck. The ONLY protections you have in public are those that protect against photography under your clothing (upskirt photography) or those which can be labelled as blatantly lewd or obscene. Unless the photo was over-the-top sexual, taking it was not illegal. You would have no recourse against a co-worker taking such pictures of you except under company policies.

As the subject of a photograph, your rights are limited to controlling how your image is distributed. I can take 100 photos of you in a park and keep them in my personal collection. You have no control over that. The moment I publish one, you can sue my ass off.

In this case, the crime and rights violation was not committed by the photographer, but by the person who distributed the photograph.

My suggestion? Call a lawyer. If they stand on their position, sue them. The school will lose. Not only will this get stricken from her record, but she might get a nice settlement out of it too. Realistically speaking though, it probably won't take that. One phone call from a lawyer explaining her legal rights will probably scare the school into submission.

[noamnety]

44. apples and oranges

Nobody is charging the girl with a crime.

We're talking about school policy (akin to company policies). Many schools forbid wearing bikini tops, for example. We know that's not illegal. That's not the issue.

[noamnety]

62. darn that editing time!

I guess the op does say prosecution, I missed that.

[Danger Mouse]

63. Knowing that, does it change your opinion of how it was handled?

[noamnety]

67. Nope.

I already said the punishment was too severe. I still think that.

And their choice of punishment doesn't affect whether or not it was sexual harassment or whether that needed to be addressed in some manner.

[Danger Mouse]

69. Well, like I said...I think she needed some sort of punishment...

but I still don't consider it to be sexual harassment. The intent of the picture was that she was pushing the guy over...yeah, it just so happened to be his fat ass...so what?

[China_cat]

79. Yes, they are seriously considering charging her with a crime.

Not only a crime, but the consideration is also as to whether or not to charge her as an adult.

(Even though it was not her hand and nothing ever touched, the school wants her charged with sexual assault)

[noamnety]

83. you said something different in the OP

There you said they wanted to charge her with sexual "harassment" - now that's upgraded to "assault."

I'm wondering if you got all the details right here because the word shifting implies something a little different, and the medical thing also didn't sound quite right, not in the black and white way you presented it.

We used to have that "policy" when I was in middle school - if you lost 10 days of school, you were held back. But we had a summer in Europe and missed the first two weeks of school, my parents met with the principal, and I was able to get credit for the year.

In any event, if she got charged with that, if the judge didn't dismiss it (and I think he would), I doubt it would play too well in a jury trial. We've got an insanely stupid court case going with one of my kids here, and the lawyer (someone from the National Lawyers Guild who is taking it pro bono), refused to do any plea bargaining and is instead demanding a jury trial just because he knows the jury how the jury will react. He's fully prepared to expose what a mockery and abuse of the system this case is. :)

[China_cat]

98. I mis-spoke in the OP. The 'upgrade' to assault was after

talking with her mother again and meeting to go over the strategy for the school board meeting. (Our goal is to try to get the schools to consider severity of consequences for an action to be tempered by the overall student evaluation. A kid who's been no problem, followed the rules, been respectful, etc, should not be penalized as harshly as someone who is constantly in trouble for things.) She's the one who corrected me.

[cuke]

47. A school classroom is not open to the public

and teachers do have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the classroom. Don't know exactly how much privacy they should expect, but certainly enough to prohibit TnA pictures of teachers

[Pale Blue Dot]

53. Your post, while technically correct, is very scary to me.

What the student did was wrong, PERIOD. If she goes through life thinking that she was entitled to take this kind of picture, she is doomed. If she goes through life not understanding why she was wrong to do this, she is doomed.

The penalty was probably excessive; however, modern 13-year-olds need to understand what it means to respect other human beings.

[GirlinContempt]

55. Doomed?

[cuke]

56. Yes, doomed

Unless she lives in Utah, Kansas, Texas or Florida, in which case, she ends up headlining a show of FauxNews

[Pale Blue Dot]

57. Yes. nt

[Danger Mouse]

61. Doesn't it just make you shiver all over???

:scared:

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

99. Doom Doom Doom! Doom on you!

[DS1]

86. thank you for that

excellent post, and about goddamn time for some levity in this thread, man

[Oeditpus Rex]

121. Yes and no

You're right about "in public," but — I won't say "wrong," but you're not categorically correct about what constitutes "in public." An office may or may not; there are variables such as its proximity and access to a public thoroughfare and even what sort of business is conducted inside.

The simplest example is in retail stores: You cannot enter one and begin making photographs without the authorization of the management. Depending on the size of the store (i.e. a chain), you may have to fill out a form that goes to its corporate offices stating who you are, who you represent and the reason for the photos.

In any event, a court would base any resulting case on "reasonable expectation of privacy." That's the key phrase.

(Thinking of courts, I've had to submit forms such as described above to judges before I was allowed to make photos of trials, hearings etc. for newspapers. Seems a bit strange, since our courts are most definitely "public," but there y'go.)

[madinmaryland]

26. Why the FUCK did she have a cell phone/camera in the class room.

Ban the fucking things in school (as most schools do or should do), and these things will not happen.

:grr:

[Pale Blue Dot]

37. In my school it's against the rules to have them during the school day.

A teacher is allowed to confiscate them if a student shows it during class.

[mitchum]

49. That was also my first question (n/t)

[Pale Blue Dot]

31. I am a male teacher of 13-year-olds.

While I don't think that I would press the issue, and I don't believe that long suspensions are appropriate for anything other than students who commit violent acts, I do see in this situation some disturbing treads in modern education and modern students.

First, modern children don't understand the importance of respecting other people. By this I don't mean just teachers and authority figures, but their peers as well. I've had to spend as much time teaching my students how to listen to and respect other's opinions as I have the basics of my subject. The student who took the picture was wrong and disrespectful, and she needs to learn why that is so.

Second, I was struck by your statement "Nothing is being done about the other child". I hear this all day long: "Why are you punishing me for talking out of turn? **** was doing it too!!" Young adults need to learn to stop worrying about the fairness of situations and instead focus on whether they were behaving appropriately. There is a culture in this country right now to ignore our own problems and focus on the (perceived) greater problems of our peers. Students need to be taught that being a good person is completely independent of the actions of others. They need to stop worrying about the behaviors of others. (In truth, because of the photographic evidence, it's easy to prove why she took the picture. It's much harder to prove that the other student placed their hand in that spot on purpose.)

I don't want you to think that I'm some conservative, hard-assed teacher. Quite the opposite: this is my first year teaching, I love it, and I'm semi-proud to say that I'm the most popular teacher in my grade. But students need to learn some hard lessons now, before it's too late. So while I'm not sure that I agree with the punishment, this is not a student I would go to the mat for. In fact, I would say that it bodes very poorly for her future that her parents are defending her on this.

[NashVegas]

70. I Agree With Most Of That ... BUT

A word on fairness .... some of us are more sensitive to fairplay than others. Telling a kid, "the world's not fair, deal with it," is not going to help them, it's just going to make them reject it and focus inward.

I once got my arm half-yanked off by a teacher for following the lead of another kid (nothing bad, simply, mistakenly, out of turn (Catholic school)). When the teacher found out why I'd done it, she apologized to me; still, when all was said and done, *I* was the one with the sore arm.

[Kutjara]

41. The hysterical actions of a hysterical society.

We Americans just love blowing everything up out of all proportion, don't we? A 13 year old takes a picture and, instead of a trip to the Principal's office or a few days of detention, she's potentially going to be tried as an adult for a sex crime. And what, be put on the sex offender's register? Have all her neighbors advised she's a sexual criminal?

Or is this more about the kind of hysterical penalties every branch of government threatens us with at every juncture? Tell a lie on some pointless government form? Five years in jail and a $500,000 fine. Copy a DVD? Endless jail time and millions of dollars. Commit a few misdemeanors, get them magically converted into felonies, count to three and go to jail for life.

We have become used to extreme punishment for minor infractions. Of course, most people "get away" with much less, and then feel stupidly grateful that the state didn't annihilate them. "Big Daddy Government is sooooo nice. It could have killed me but it decided to merely bankrupt me. I love Big Daddy sooooo much. Thank you Big Daddy."

Now, the state is doing it to our children. Fail to clean up properly after a spill in the school cafeteria, get your arm broken by "security." Film the assault, get assaulted yourself. Complain about the assault to your child, get threatened with being charged with crimes that carry massive penalties.

Take a photo of a teacher's ass, become a sex offender.

Anyone else see a trend here?

All I can say is I'm grateful I went to school in the 70s, when it was ok to be a stupid kid. If I was a teenager today, I'd be doing twenty to life in Gitmo for putting a firecracker down the toilet.

[noamnety]

50. Irony.

she's potentially going to be tried as an adult for a sex crime. And what, be put on the sex offender's register? Have all her neighbors advised she's a sexual criminal?



"We Americans just love blowing everything up out of all proportion, don't we?"

Yes. We sure do. ;)

[Kutjara]

58. I'm nothing if not a loyal American, just doing my part...

...for the hysteriocracy. :hi:

By the way, the sky IS falling.

[Danger Mouse]

60. I just barely squeeked by...

I graduated in 2000, just before it started to get REALLY insane...oh, about when Bush got the White House. Heh.
I never would've lived through school in today's world...never...

[GoneOffShore]

68. You hit the nail -

The school administrators are going into typical overreaction mode to what should have been handled with a "stiff talking to".

And the reactions of some here are just as over-the-top.

Take a deep breath, settle down and get a life people.

Americans see "sexual harassment" lurking under every rock and shrub.

[Oeditpus Rex]

48. None of us can say this was or wasn't sexual harassment

We weren't there, we haven't seen the photo and we can only guess at the motives and intents of the students involved.

I'm curious as to who made the charge — the teacher (i.e. the "victim") or the principal or other higher-up-the-ladder figure after hearing the story and/or seeing the photo.

I also wonder what was done with the photo. Was it published on the internet or otherwise distributed?

[Danger Mouse]

54. This is lame, retarded bullshit, and I don't know how much more of this zero tolerance garbage...

I can tolerate before my fucking head explodes.
While I do agree that she should be punished for doing this, the idea of charging her with a CRIME is so fucking absurd it makes me want to vomit.
I am SICK of our society treating kids like criminals. It's going to backfire on us one day. Big time.

[Maat]

64. This is why I homeschool my kid.

I'm sick and tired about the complete lack of common sense in dealing with issues at school. I don't want her suspended if her dad's pen knife accidentally drops into backpak or something.

[Danger Mouse]

65. No common sense at all.

I fear for the future of our country.

[NashVegas]

71. What Alternate Discipline Have Her Parents Proposed?

Teachers need to be able to establish themselves as being the ones in charge, in the classroom. If they're not, if the room is chaotic, how're the kids going to learn anything?

[China_cat]

81. She's grounded for a month

Her computer has been taken away. She has no cell phone to start with...her mother has said she has to be able to pay the bill herself before she can have one...the camera was a small digital one that was a gift from her grandmother and it's been confiscated. Even if the school would let her have it back, her mother won't.

And the picture never made it out of the classroom so there is NO distribution to even play in this. The other kid whose hand was part of the picture saw it and laughed and then it was shown to the teacher who, in my opinion after starting all this bullshit, is a total asshole.

[NashVegas]

82. That All Looks Pretty Reasonable To Me

Seems like the school ought to be cool with that.

[DS1]

90. the teacher should have done 'something'

I suppose. But right now he's sounding like a humorless fuck who stifles creativity. The school has no right to keep the camera, that is starting to sound like theft.

This punishment is ridiculous.

[China_cat]

100. No, I think the school is right to keep the camera.

In my day it was comic books, magazines and transistor radios. They were a distraction and the worst thing you could do to a kid was take them away for the simple reason that they'd then have to explain where they went and why to their parents. Quite frankly, I think having to explain to her grandmother why she no longer has the camera has been the hardest thing she's had to do. Therefore, a lesson she will always remember.

[DS1]

101. horsepuckey!

those aren't cheap 50 cent comic books, unless it's a total piece of junk, there are no digital cameras below 130 dollars.

It is NOT the school's right to keep it, at all. If anything, they should mail it back to the grandmother if they still have a stick up their collective ass

what if it were a macbook, with the built-in camera? should they be able to keep that, too?

[China_cat]

103. Yeah, if the student is being inappropriate with it.

(The times I'm talking about, comic books were a nickle and we only got $.50 a week allowance)

[DS1]

104. 1400 dollar laptop = 5 cent comic book

all right then.

[China_cat]

105. If you consider it as a percentage of income, yes.

[DS1]

106. you think kids get 14,000 a week for allowance?

[China_cat]

111. I don't think kids get $1400 laptops.

Not when you can get them for $700. And I'm talking about parents' income as I really doubt that a kid of 13 would have enough bucks to buy a computer...even a cheap one. She wouldn't have had the camera if it hadn't been a gift.

[DS1]

112. heh, well, macbooks are overpriced pieces of crap

but even at 700 dollars, you really believe the school should be allowed to keep it and not give it back to the parents?

[China_cat]

113. Yes I do.

Think about how YOUR parents would have reacted if you did something stupid that got a piece of equipment that expensive confiscated. For me, jail would have been a preferrable alternative...and no, my grandparents would never have laid a hand on me for something like that, but my grandfather's disappointment would have been unbearable.

[DS1]

115. They would have demanded it was returned to them

and dealt with me as they saw fit. Good to know some DUers support this bullshit fascist schooling though. Goddamn.

[Smith_3]

74. The appropriate response would have been:

-Conviscate the cell phone to have it later be picked up by the parents.
-Have the picture deleted.
-Have the student write a two-page essay about appropriate behaviour in class.

Problem solved. Getting the legal system involved in such a case is moronic.

[mzteris]

87. held back policy?

That's totally asinine.

If she's unable to talk sense into the school board, here's what she does -

pull her daughter to homeschool. SC requirements here: http://www.schomeeducatorsassociation.org/lawetc.htm It's not as complicated as the govt makes it sound, btw. (If she's interested, let me know. You/she can email me for info.)


She homeschools her for the rest of the semester - or even the year. That way she hasn't missed any, has completed the grade level and can continue with her class next year.


Warning - they may decide they like hs'ing is better, though. :D

[Maat]

91. You're right.

This is why I homeschool my kid; actually, she's part of a hybrid program, and she attends class twice per week. The thing that I have noticed is that the director is in love with the classroom instruction they provide. It's good, but not better than learning at home. They are now threatening us if we don't make every class (it's through a charter school). I'm prepared to go 'full home school' if necessary. You get an allowance for outside classes through the charters (so, the socialization angle is taken care of).

[China_cat]

102. Homeschooling is difficult

Single mother of 2 who must work. I doubt the grandmother is up to it. But I think mostly she's having a really hard time seeing past the possible criminal ramifications right now.

[mzteris]

107. how old is the girl?

or can she just stay with the grandmother while mom's at work? Grandma doesn't have to "teach". Just supervise if need be.

It can work. Especially if she's a bright self-motivated girl. Even if she isn't (those things) it's possible, very possible. "School" doesn't necessarily have to be done during "school hours". There are evenings and weekends. Assignments that can be completed on one's own and then reviewed with the parent when the parent's available.

ANYTHING would be preferrable to being "held back"!!

Anyway, I hope they're able to work it out with the School Board, but if not, I'd recommend that she at least consider it as an option and take a hard look at it. Like I said, if she wants to email me, I'll be more than happy to discuss the how to's and what for's of how it works and try to hook her up with (her) local homeschoolers.

[China_cat]

110. The girl is 13.

I'll let the mother know and present this as an option. Would you pm me your email address to give to her?

[DS1]

88. the funny thing is

I see this is only, possibly, offensive to the kid with the hand in the first place.

[Pale Blue Dot]

92. ...

:eyes:

[DS1]

93. yeah, you made your point earlier

:eyes:

[Downtown Hound]

94. Prosecution, even threatened prosecution is a gross overreaction in this case

And prosecution as an adult is just insane. This girl is guilty of a lapse in judgment and some immaturity (surprise, she's 13). She should be disciplined, but what they are doing to her is a witch hunt.

[fishwax]

114. prosecution for what? Sexual harassment alone isn't usually criminal ...

[China_cat]

116. The criminal charge is sexual assault.

[fishwax]

122. How can you have sexual assault with no physical contact?

[China_cat]

124. Good question. But this IS SC, after all.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

123. The only thing that will get these adminstrators' attention is a LAWSUIT against the school board.

People that are that rigid and arbitrary don't understand anything except lawsuits and judgments against them for money damages & attorneys' fees that are upheld on appeal.

NOTHING else will get their attention except hitting them in the pocketbook.

[neweurope]

125. They're crazy, those Americans.

I'm very glad I don't have to live in your country. Thank God or whomever some of you think that it's crazy, too.


----------------------

<{b>Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[dembotoz]

128. look into home schooling

home school till jan
give her all As
then DEMAND that the local school accept your transcript

we homeschooled for a year a few years ago and in wisconsin
there are NO RESTRICTIONS on what you do
No testing no nothing
the dept of instructions is SO AFRAID of the FUNDIES you can do what ever you want and the school will prob accept it

If not raise HOLY hell and watch them scatter.

a homeschooler could sell their kid into slavery at a sweatshop and tell the school that it was "on the job training" and the school system will swallow it.

so much potential for abuse it made me sick.

[Orsino]

130. If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding. n/t