Alternatives to Alcoholics Anonymous and Other 12 step programs

[SPKrazy]

since the AA thread has become somewhat of a flamethrower phenomenon

I thought maybe we needed a thread for people to post all those alternatives to AA and other 12 step programs that they wanted to.

And for those who have thoughts or issues with non 12 step programs to bring that out.


As someone who found his recovery through 12 step programs, the only thing that I can offer is that I'm for whatever works for someone.
The suffering that addictions of any kind cause is terrible for those afflicted and affected.

So please feel free to discuss, post links to alternatives, and experience with alternatives and how successful they've been.

I would hate to think that all we could accomplish is to argue whether AA is "good" or "bad", as I see it as neither, but rather simply one path that people have found to recovery.

I've known other people who have found recovery in a variety of ways.

:hi:

[NMDemDist2]

1. ....

:popcorn:

[SPKrazy]

2. How come no one is replying?

there were multiple replies regarding AA, but no replies here?

:shrug:

I'm stumped!

:wtf:

[rug]

3. AA has better coffee.

[SPKrazy]

5. Ha ha ha!

but what are alternatives to AA?

[rug]

7. There's Rational Recovery

http://www.rational.org/

[SPKrazy]

8. Okay!

now my objection to them is that they operate from what i understand with the notion that if you can help people think rationally, they will be able to drink rationally, and moderately.

i dunno

i wonder if there's anyone with experience in that here that could tell us how that works?

:shrug:

[rug]

10. Yeah, it flies in the face of Step Two.

This thread is running the risk of going to R/T.

[KitchenWitch]

12. Gosh I hope it does not - the other one did not.

[SPKrazy]

15. I see it as flying in the face of the disease concept of alcoholism

head to head AA to RR comparisons be damned

lets look at the fact that alcoholism is considered to be a disease and has been since 1956 by the AMA.

It's one disease that the public argues isn't one, yet continues to be considered to be one, based more and more on science than anecdote.

If alcoholism is a disease that is one of metabolic differences, changes in brain chemistry, and whatever other changes there are, then how is moderation anything but an unwise move?

Do you tell someone with diabetes to just watch their sugar content, or do you put them on a strict diet, medication, exercise, etc. a disease management program.

since there is to date no comparison for 'insulin' for diabetics, then abstinence seems to be the best recommendation given by treatment professionals.

To me the RR movement is denying the disease concept, and putting the problem back into the purely psychological realm, the thinking realm. the idea that if you could think rationally and logically and not lose control of drinking is just not logical itself in the face of the evidence of the entity alcoholism or alcohol dependence.

:shrug:

nothing particularly spiritual in that argument is there?

[rug]

18. There's another group, Moderation Management, that takes the same approach.

I was once told by someone with 20 years sobriety that if I didn't think I was an alcoholic I should have two drinks a day, no more, no less, for thirty days. Of course I took that as I could have 60 drinks a month. By the end of the week I was already into the second month.

The short answer is people who are not alcoholic rarely wonder if they are. If there is a need for the question, the answer is usually yes. And the basic symptom is you can't moderate.

I think RR also underestimates the emotional, if not spritual, relief that comes with the beginning of recovery. Step Two is as much about hope as it is faith or belief. A strictly rational approach to recovery, along with the possibility of moderate drinking, seems to miss the point.

[SPKrazy]

25. agreed

totally

yeah, the moderation group if i'm remembering right also had no apparent standards as to what they said constitutes a "drink"

i think that if one wants to limit themselves to two drinks a day, they should be HUGH!!!!11111 drinks

no small stuff! go for the quart glass full of vodka!

then have a second one before bed

that way you can say, i only had 2 drinks every day and so i can't be an alcoholic :P

[GenDem]

13. wrong spot -- it's late

[NMDemDist2]

20. i figured there'd be cricketts in this one

they don't even need to be 'anonymous' yet not one 'anecdotal' story of how great RR or MM is?

hmmmmm.........

[KitchenWitch]

21. chirp chirp!

:)

[Nicole]

36. Be careful what you wish for!

I'm sure some of them are sleeping right now. They will be here full of good news tomorrow.

:rofl:

[GoneOffShore]

4. Wow! I read that thread.

Suddenly, I had a moment of deja-vu. I thought I was in GD.
:wtf: :scared:

[SPKrazy]

6. Yes there is contentiousness there

but what are alternatives to AA etc.?

[KitchenWitch]

11. That one WAS a little GD like

or even Gungeon like.

:scared:

[KitchenWitch]

9. Thanks SPK for this

It was getting a bit hot in there.

:hi:

[GenDem]

14. The only one I ever heard of was Scientolgy's - Narconon

Which we actually looked into for my son (who has always said he's been uncomfortable talking at AA meetings -- the truth probably is closer to him not being ready to surrender yet, and the negative attitude toward meetings reflect that) Just my opinion after a little research -- the Narcanon program seemed like a religious recruitment (cult) more than a recovery program.

I'm not looking to open up any fresh wounds here. I stayed out of that one, mostly because right now this subject is a little raw for personal reasons. I did read the AA thread, and what I have always liked about the 12 Step programs are the concept of taking what you want and leaving the rest behind. It works for those that chose to follow the simple concept. Just my thoughts.

Interesting that there doesn't seem to be many alternatives.

[SPKrazy]

16. Interestingly One Of Their Treatment Programs

is less than 100 miles from here

one of the local news programs was doing an expose on them, very positive, not mentioning any ties to scientology.

I don't know that my email asking them about the connection to scientology was what took the link to them off the stations web page, but it is gone.

[SPKrazy]

17. Here is a site that was PM'd to me by someone...

http://www.moderation.org/links.shtml


mostly about moderation management and stanton peele from what i could gather

i've read some stanton peele out of curiosity and found that, like the rational recovery program as well, the books about recovery spend a LOT of time focused on how bad AA and 12 step programs are and not about their own program. (again that is my perception of those books and I have read them in the past as when working as an addictions counselor i did feel it was only fair to have at least an awareness of programs other than AA or NA to have available to people if they rejected on its face the 12 step approach which was the model that was used. (the Johnson model, based on middle aged, white, middle class males-doesn't work well on younger, more polysubstance abusing males and females)

[NMDemDist2]

19. yeah, but the founder ended up in AA for a couple months before she

killed two people while driving drunk

moderation didn't seem to work for her real well :shrug:

[SPKrazy]

22. okay

then it didn't work :shrug:

what do you want me to do about that?

[NMDemDist2]

23. you darling? not a darned thing

i'm still waiting for all the people who got and stayed sober with an alternative to AA to come rushing to this thread and share the good news

:hi:

[KitchenWitch]

24. Me too, babe, me too

I almost called you today, but then I ended up getting really busy!

[NMDemDist2]

26. awwwww

you shouldn't tease me like that!!! :spank:

are you feeling lots better I hope??

:hug:

[KitchenWitch]

28. I am, finally.

I am still pretty tired, though, cannot seem to get any traction with that right now.

This too, shall pass!

[NMDemDist2]

30. i'd suggest lots of sunshine but

only on the beach so the smoke and smog are blown away from your lungs, they don't need the stress

:hug:

[KitchenWitch]

31. We are planning a beach outing this weekend.

We live about 5 miles, as the crow flies, from the beach, but it takes almost 40 minutes to drive there (there is not really a direct way to get there from here because of the ridges between us and the beach).

[SPKrazy]

27. They should have come rushing right in! n/t

[KitchenWitch]

29. One would think

although one of them had just about all of the Lounge on Nuke Ignore over the douchebag thing.

[TrogL]

32. White knuckling

[TrogL]

33. Detox

[KitchenWitch]

35. Changing brands.

[SPKrazy]

48. drinking beer only

[TrogL]

34. Funny farm

[KitchenWitch]

38. Religion

[TrogL]

37. incarceration

[SPKrazy]

49. mental institutions

[TrogL]

39. death and/or dismemberment

[SPKrazy]

50. always eating before drinking

[TrogL]

40. wet brain

[Lilith Velkor]

41. Science-based psychotherapy, including groups and/or medications as needed

It is unethical and cruel to coerce a patient into going to 12-step meetings when they are already depressed, and quit years ago. Or even if they didn't.

I really, truly do not understand how being bullied and belittled into unthinking conformity with people who obsess on their past drinking and drug-taking can possibly help one find a way of life conducive to abstinence from these things. The only things that worked for me were meditation and martial arts (with strenous exercise regimen) and a decent therapist.

If one is more religious in outlook, there are plenty of religions one can join that require total abstinence from alcohol: some Protestant Christian sects, some Voodoo temples, and, of course, all mosques. (That was one thing that creeped me out the worst in the meetings, how similar it was to those fellas who yammer on about submission to the will of God :scared: ...but I digress.)

I guess there are some personality types for whom Fillintheblank Anonymous is beneficial, and others for whom it is neutral. But for some, it is lethal, and whether you want to admit it or not they are real human beings, with real human family and friends, and to casually dismiss their loss is disgraceful in my opinion.

[RetroLounge]

42. But you didn't answer the question

What are alternatives and how well did they work for you?

:shrug:

RL

[NMDemDist2]

43. retro, Lilith isn't an alcoholic

she's told us that over and over. And I have no reason to doubt her.

and as such, how can she have an opinion on what does or doesn't work for alcoholics ?

edit to add, her prescription above was what *she* needed, admittedly a non alcoholic. and I hope she gets all that and more for her troubles.

[SPKrazy]

45. huh?

wow, okay, if she isn't an alcoholic... i guess i'm lost here, she can have an opinion, but it seemed like she was saying it as something she had experienced.

i dunno

i have an opinion about what works for ovarian cancer, and i've never had it, i don't have ovaries. my mother had that and i learned all about the treatments.

i have an opinion about what works for diabetes, although i'd be hard pressed to be specific about treatments.

she can have an opinion i think AZ, but it is confusing to me the story then.

she said meditation, martial arts, and a good therapist helped her.

if it wasn't with alcoholism, then what does that have to do with this thread at all? is it an opinion about an alternative to AA ?

or just ....??? :wtf:?

:shrug:

[NMDemDist2]

46. she said repeatedly in the other thread the 12 step nazis forced her to AA

even though she hadn't had a drink in years, before they would address her therapeutic needs for other problems.

So she wasn't a drunk, seems to me :shrug:

[SPKrazy]

47. oh, okay

dunno?

:shrug:

what were the 12 step nazis like AZ?

did they goose step down the square and say "heil bill w!"?

yeah if she hadn't had a drink in years why would they make her go to AA?

did they think she was a dry drunk? that's a leap of faith for sure.

:hi:

[NMDemDist2]

51. the "12 Steppers" worked in the Mental Health program she was attending

i guess. that's what I got out of her posts anyway :shrug:

[SPKrazy]

52. damn 12 steppers anyway

isn't that a fancy kind of goose step? the 12 steppers?

:rofl:

in all seriousness, if someone put her in a 12 step program and she hadn't drank in a long time, then she probably was not getting good treatment

:shrug:

[NMDemDist2]

53. that was her whole point.

her bad treatment through the Mental Health facility she lays at the feet of AA and the '12 steppers'

I feel bad for her. This country's Mental Health infrastructure is an embarrassment IMO

[SPKrazy]

54. ah yes

i do remember

and you are right

it is an embarrassment

and a crime

:cry:

really sad

[RetroLounge]

62. " the 12 step nazis forced her to AA"

3 more years sober and I get promoted to "12 step nazi."

I love the uniform...

:rofl:

RL

[Lilith Velkor]

56. I listed many alternatives

Try reading my post? :shrug:

Here, I'll help: Martial arts, meditation, decent therapist. Got older, gained perspective, worked out some of my issues. Haven't felt the urge to get plastered in 10 years.

Cheers. :donut:

[SPKrazy]

44. wow, no one ever forced me to go to aa meetings

and no one ever bullied me about submitting to the will of god.

alcohol and drugs kicked my ass!

it wasn't a hard sell for me

so meditation, martial arts, and a decent therapist are all good things. i'd be surprised if you could find anywhere in AA literature that is approved literature for AA where it says anything about not using things like that for sobriety.

in fact, meditation is mentioned in the 11th step, and there is no prescribed format for any of the steps really, suggestions.

of course, it is also suggested that when you jump out of an airplane at 10000 feet, that you have a working parachute.

it's amazing how this thread got kicked up here. i guess some of the back and forth in that "other thread" tonight might have something to do with it.

so kudos to your therapy, meditation and martial arts

none of that is contraindicated for AA, nor does any of it have a particularly known track record for keeping people sober, but good tools

thanks for your input here

:hi:

[Lilith Velkor]

55. So a 'suggestion' is really an offer you can't refuse

See, that's what I mean by crazymaking doubletalk. It's only suggested you do the steps, just like having a parachute when you jump out of a plane is "only suggested?" Bullshit. Drinking is learned behavior for a lot of people, and can be unlearned. "Accepting powerlessness" is the last thing you want to do in that case.

What I listed in my post were examples of ways of life that do not include alcohol by necessity. They also have communities, and folklore, and things to do instead of drinking *or* ruminating on the past, but keeping people sober is not their sole reason for being, and so they don't keep track. I'd think being part of a larger purpose usually comes with a psychological benefit.

I also think we may have differing ideas as to meditation...to me, the purpose of it is to be aware of one's own thoughts and feelings, and has nothing to do with any ontological deity. Your Mileage May Vary.

Thanks for the second thread, the other was just too damn long :hi:

[SPKrazy]

78. My Mileage May Vary

indeed, whatever that means in regards to what my meditation is or isn't about

you jump to amazing leaps in your post

1. i am supportive of whatever path you take in your life, the purpose of this thread originally was to try to get some discussion of alternatives to AA since the AA thread seemed to be a big flame fest between sides that formed amazingly to me.

2. why do you suppose you assume that i meditate to any "ontological deity"? you take the 12 steps and make them mean what you want to mean. the literature in aa makes no such demands. i meditate to become aware of my thoughts and feelings, to be aware of what i need, and to develop a quiet mind that is open to the universe of mysteries far beyond my simple understanding and senses

3. AA is really for people who have tried other things and not been able to get them to work. Most people will not do what is asked of them in AA otherwise. The steps work, and they are not demanding a certain set of spiritual or philosophical beliefs.

So i appreciate your appreciating my new thread that was started before the other one was locked, not with the intention of a continuation of arguments.

unfortunately it has become that, and i am not innocent in that regard myself as i am human and have jumped into the fray a few times.

a comment on your plight as i understand it: you seem to have been pushed into 12 step meetings when you had problems other than addiction. I see that as a failing of your state's and society's mental health system and not anything to do with AA itself. Those counselors who you call 12 steppers were not representative of AA, NA, or any other 12 step program, they were in fact paid personnel working in a facility that it sounds like did you a great disservice.

As a mental health professional I can assure you that my goal in life is not to get people into 12 step programs. In fact i rarely work with people anymore with addiction problems. At one time I worked with a population of patients that largely had both mental health and chemical dependency diagnoses. There was no effort to put people into the places that wouldn't work for them. We also tried using emotions anonymous materials and trying to help a group get started INDEPENDENTLY of our program to no avail. However EA has been something that has been helpful to some who have mental disorders.

I've never been completely sold on that idea, 12 steps for mental disorders, I tend to agree that one size does not fit all.

So finally I will say that again I am sorry for what you endured. As a mental health professional I feel you were not treated well if you were forced to attend 12 step meetings without a diagnosis of a chemical dependency. As a recovering alcoholic and addict I bear no responsibility for what paid professionals did to you, and would say again that they do NOT REPRESENT AA OR ANY OTHER 12 STEP PROGRAM and I would recommend that your anger be focused on the wrongness of the mental health system's treatment of you and not on what AA did or didn't do. AA didn't put you in that facility nor did they make you attend 12 step meetings. Those professionals who were getting paid in a system that evidently supported what they were doing did.

Thanks

:hi:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

60. I don't like the insistence on powerlessness.

Powerlessness is very similar to Christianity -- turn over your personal will to somebody/something else -- or an institution. It can be an excuse to duck responsibility. You can say "the Devil made me do it" or "it was God's will".

I'm sure many of these people are passive, and beating them over the head about powerlessness makes them feel even more depressed.

I've never had a substance abuse problem of any kind, but my father was a dry drunk. He never went to AA meetings, so he raged occasionally. My parents' generation (The ones who were young during WW II) thought that psychiatry or any kind of group discussion was a black art. You just didn't tell anyone about your problems. Anyone who went to a psychologist or counselor was "crazy" or "weak". Going into a mental hospital to try to get to the root of your problems was disgraceful.

[Lilith Velkor]

64. People in meetings have that attitude, too

They make up bullshit terms like 'dry drunk.' I'm sorry, but don't you realize how nutty it sounds to call someone a drunk when they don't drink? Do you seriously believe that sobriety doesn't count unless it comes with belief in a specific kind of god, and social reinforcement thereof?

Your father had anger issues unrelated to alcohol. Alcohol is a chemical, not a demon that needs to be exorcised by confessing your sins.

Good grief. This is the 21st century, do we really need to be superstitious anymore?

[SPKrazy]

80. Hmmm, I think the term dry drunk

describes a syndrome whereby a person feels restless, irritable, and discontent.

now if depression is causing that, it should be treated. but if that is what they are feeling because they can't drink, then they are in a "dry drunk" syndrome.


you have such anger and misunderstandings about AA, I'm sorry Lilith, I'm trying to be sympathetic to your story about being mistreated, but your anger seems to be all directed at AA and not at the bastids who made you go there.

Try a little anger at the system that was screwn so badly that they thought they could treat everyone in the same capacity. AA didn't create that at all.

[SPKrazy]

79. When your ass has been kicked

then you will understand what that means

until then it probably is a foreign concept to you.

however it is instead a freeing concept to realize that fighting alcohol by trying to control consumption is a losing battle and giving up the battle to win the war is freeing.

There is no global "powerlessness" that is encouraged in 12 step meetings.

the idea that beating themselves up over powerlessness is something that makes them more depressed is like this: when a person grieves a loss they feel depressed, they get over it, and they move on through acceptance.

Good gawdesses, there are surely more important things to worry about than whether or not a person can or can't ever have a drink. In fact that isn't even done. I choose not to drink today. Tomorrow I may change my mind. Today is all I got. How about you?

[flamingyouth]

57. My mom attended a non-12-step-support group.

It was women-only and it was very helpful for her. She attended two different AA meetings and didn't really feel it was right for her. I think she was conflicted about the Higher Power concept partly because she grew up in a household that was on-again, off-again involved in the Mormon church. The small group that she was in for about a year was perfect for her. She's been sober for ten years now and I am very proud of her. I think AA is a great organization; I've attended Al-Anon myself. :)

Edit - it wasn't based on Rational Recovery. I was mistaken.

[NMDemDist2]

59. wow, thanks for telling us about that FY

there are a few groups around that seem to do some good

but they are few and far between. the one thing about AA is that it's everywhere.

so glad for your mom, 10 years! what a great success!! :bounce:

[KitchenWitch]

68. Was it Women For Sobriety (WFS)?

I have heard of them.

http://www.womenforsobriety.org/

[flamingyouth]

70. That sounds like it.

She was extremely private about the details of her recovery and I never pressed her. An ER doctor told me one night that if she didn't stop drinking, she would die. My dad was completely in denial. I'm an only child and had to stage an intervention on my own by basically saying if she didn't get help, they were going to cut me out of their lives. I don't think my dad has ever come to terms with her addiction, to be honest. But I'm so proud of her, she's awesome.

[KitchenWitch]

71. Good for her, I am so glad she found help!

:hi:

[leftofthedial]

58. I'm addicted to 12-step programs

now I don't know what the hell to do

[SeattleGirl]

61. Standing on your head in a corner, and whistling "Dixie".

At least, that's what I believed when I worked in the chemical addiction field. AA works well for some people; for others, it's a bust. For me, it doesn't matter what method one uses, if it brings one to a good, solid sobriety. I know there are other options out there, and I don't believe that AA is the end-all, be-all of recovery. If something works for ya, it works for ya. That's the most important thing: reaching the goal of a good sobriety, not HOW you got there.

[GreenPartyVoter]

63. SMART

http://www.smartrecovery.org/

[no name no slogan]

65. I think some people are confused

They conflate problem/borderline drinking with alcoholism-- and there is a difference.

I was a "problem drinker", but not an alcoholic. In my case, the drinking was self-medication for bipolar disorder. I would drink (sometimes quite heavily) to alleviate the bipolar symptoms and relieve the anxiety from my mood swings.

It looked a lot like alcoholism-- the denial, the excuses, the behavior, etc. But once I was properly treated for the bipolar, the drinking literally stopped. I don't have the cravings or the desire for alcohol.

Maybe this is where a lot of the anti-AA sentiment is coming from. People with diseases that look like alcoholism may not have found help because they were being treated for the wrong disease, and therefore slag off the entire program.

[NMDemDist2]

66. excellent post no name! I was bemoaning the state of our Mental Health

system upthread and you hit the nail right on the head!

glad you got a correct diagnosis and are getting the treatment you need.

and if you want to enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, you can without any second thoughts. My mom is bi-polar but certainly not alcoholic. she, also, occasionally drank heavily before she was diagnosed and now is a 'normal' drinker. it never enters her mind to drink heavily any more. a glass of wine or a cocktail now and then are just that. "A" glass (or two) now and then.

me? well let's just say, not so much ....... :rofl:

[no name no slogan]

72. That's EXACTLY the problem-- the Mental Heath system!!!

I went for 14+ years being treated for the wrong disease (depression). I share the blame for part of the misdiagnosis, but I know that a mental health system that was focused on making people well instead of making money would've probably helped me quicker than the one we have now. The funny thing is, it was a drunken bender two years ago (which put the nail in the coffin on a very bad marriage) that led me on the path to getting the right kind of help. :D

And like your mother, I have the very occasional glass of wine, but thankfully the craving to drink the whole bottle isn't there anymore. I have a lot of sympathy for recovering alcoholics and addicts because I felt a lot of the same things when I was untreated (or mis-treated/mis-diagnosed). I still go to a support group with other bipolars, and I find it even more helpful than seeing a therapist much of the time.

IMHO one of the great strengths of the recovery movement is the peer support. You can relate to other people that are going through similar things, and gain strength from each other. A so-called "professional" can give you advice, but nothing beats hearing it from somebody who's walked a mile in your shoes.

Best of luck on your continuing journey. I'll bring the coffee and sugar cookies next time ;-)

[SPKrazy]

81. The mental health system(s) have a lot of problems

who's fault was it that the diagnosis was missed? were you honest about your drinking?

if you were and they missed it, then you can blame whatever bad clinician(s) missed that one.

the system is broken for sure.

it needs money, professionals, research, and a lot of things.

[skygazer]

67. Cold turkey

I've never said anything against AA though people seem to take everything I've ever said about it as a slam. To me, that says more about the defensiveness of AA members than anything else.

If AA works for you, fine. All I've ever said about it is that I would like to see some empirical studies that assess the effectiveness of 12 step programs as well as other methods of achieving recovery. I always find it interesting that when you say anything like that, people come screaming out of the woodwork defending AA with their stories of being "saved" by it (an interesting choice of words that I see in juxtaposition with the insistence that it is NOT a religious program). That's not really empirical evidence though I'm certainly glad it worked for them.

Why would I like to see such evidence? Because I want to somehow prove that AA is a farce? No. Because I think it would be helpful for people to have some hard evidence, both to make decisions about their own path to recovery and perhaps to look for ways that may work better - you can't tell if they work better - or work at all - if you have no data.

As for my subject line, I quit both cocaine and heroin use cold turkey. I have not used the former for over 14 years, the latter for over 12. I've had no desire to either. I have not replaced them with any other addiction - as a matter of fact, I'm one of the cleanest living people I know. In spite of this, I've had people tell me I'm actually in denial because I didn't go through the 12 steps. :eyes:

From what little information is out there, there seems to be some confusion over whether AA works because the program works or if it works because the people who have been successful were simply ready to quit anyway. Some data seems to imply that it has about the same rate of effectiveness as cold turkey or any other method (I'm sure that will bring a call to produce that data - I don't have it handy, I just remember reading it and I don't have any idea of its accuracy).

At any rate, I think its pretty sad that any post on the subject turns into a pissing contest over what form of recovery is better. Any form of recovery is wonderful and if I have anything at all against AA it's the way some people who have used it jump all over anyone who has questions about its effectiveness. That's not always a slam against what worked for them - it's quite often prompted by the fact that the person asking had no luck with it or knows someone who didn't and wonders why.

But I suppose that's too logical an approach. ~sigh~

[NMDemDist2]

74. honestly, I'd love to see a real study as well.

even AA doesn't claim more than about a 15% success rate IIRC.

It's a sad and tragic disease. One that is intractable and nebulous and often misdiagnosed.

I think they are making strides on the chemical imbalances in the brain that lead to a variety of symptoms, be it addiction, depression or whatever.

Congratulations on turning your life around, I always love hearing stories like that :yourock:

[Taverner]

69. Stepping Down

If that doesn't work, stepping down is the safest way to quit any addiction.

IN the UK and Europe, for example, they have Heroin Detox programs where medical professionals administer Heroin to the addicts at lower levels every time, until they're off it.

[kwassa]

73. I tried to join Paranoids Anonymous .....

but no one would tell me where the meeting was.

[ellisonz]

75. Marijuana.

The sad truth is that there is no "solution" to the problem of substance abuse in American society. Statistical studies repeatedly show that AA has a rather low success rate. This does not deny that AA works well for individuals of who have a social demeanor (AA becomes a substitute for the bottle, it's all about the friendship.) As such, I would argue that for the many individuals for whom AA does not work it is likely because they have an asocial personality. For many of these individuals marijuana is just as effective as a treatment, if not more effective at actually changing the social impulse that allows individuals to be "alcoholic." As to the well they'd just be paranoid dope heads, they would be no more under the influence than that of prescription anti-depressents. We use methadone to treat heroin addiction, why shouldn't we use marijuana to treat addiction to alcohol in a medicinal context?

I think we all need to move beyond the individualist model of substance abuse and start actually questioning why society produces certain intolerable individuals who habitually use and abuse controlled substances. People drink not because they are powerless, but because they are powerful, because they believe they have the ability to escape reality through the substance. Why would anyone want to escape reality? Non-social alcoholics find reality to be unbearable and use alcohol to escape, which is the foundation of the analysis of alcoholism as self-destruction; not a single person has ever died from marijuana use.

THE LAGUARDIA REPORT

Although urged to smoke more, no subject could be persuaded to take more than he knew or felt he could handle. After about an hour and half of smoking, the men were given coffee and bread and jam and the party broke up. They all went to bed and reported the next day that they had slept very well.

Another attempt at evaluating the effect of marihuana in less formal situations was made in the following manner. The examiner, one of the police officers and the subjects listened to Jack Benny on the Jello Program at 7 o'clock Sunday evening. The police officer noted the number of times the audience laughed, and the length of time the laughter lasted. The examiner checked these items for the subjects. The first time this was done without marihuana; the following week the subjects were given several "reefers" about fifteen minutes before the radio program started. The results were as follows:

Without drug, the subjects laughed 42 times as against 72 laughs in the radio audience. The total time for all laughs was 63 seconds as compared with 139 seconds for the radio audience. With cigarettes the subjects laughed 43 times as compared with 47 laughs in the audience, the total laugh time being 129 seconds as compared with 173 seconds of laughter in the audience. Without drug, the subjects laughed, roughly speaking, only half as often and as long as the audience- while under the drug they laughed almost as often and the laugh time was about 75 per cent that of the audience.

It is obvious that under marihuana the subject laughs more readily and for longer time intervals. This is probably due both to the fact that things seem funnier to him and because when under the influence of the drug he is less inhibited.

CONCLUSIONS

Under the influence of marihuana the basic personality structure of the individual does not change but some of the more superficial aspects of his behavior show alteration.
With the use of marihuana the individual experiences increased feelings of relaxation, disinhibition and self-confidence.
The new feeling of self-confidence induced by the drug expresses itself primarily through oral rather than through physical activity. There is some indication of a diminution in physical activity.
The disinhibition which results from the use of marihuana releases what is latent in the individual's thoughts and emotions but does not evoke responses which would be totally alien to him in his undrugged state.
Marihuana not only releases pleasant reactions but also feelings of anxiety.
Individuals with a limited capacity for effective experience and who have difficulty in making social contacts are more likely to resort to marihuana than those more capable of outgoing responses.

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/Library/studies/lag/lagmenu.htm

[SPKrazy]

76. man i would have loved it if marijuana had worked for me!

i mean for real

i tried it and really tried to make it work. it did tend to make me paranoid under certain circumstances, now maybe it just enhanced my own paranoia. In other circumstances, at home with friends, it made me rather lazy.

I found myself smoking joint after joint and feeling like a slug.

I also got really thirsty for beer and soon was drinking again and not long after that out of control

this isn't to say this is what happens for everyone

btw, i'm a pretty asocial person and AA has helped me feel more like i can tolerate crowds, etc.

[ellisonz]

77. It's good that AA has worked for you...

And I only recommend marijuana in light of the fact that traditional 12 step treatment has had such a high failure rate and has made many much worse, which suggests to me that the problem is not so much with the approach as it is with the selection of an approach.

I by no means intend for the impression to be that everyone should smoke pot to treat their depression, but rather that moderate use of marijuana may prove more effective than cold turkey, SSRIs, or a residential program for some alcoholics as a substitute drug.

As the author Hubert Selby Jr. would have observed, and many in this conspiracy of the good would deny, we're all addicts...the question is not what it is but what to do and not insult the exceptions, but the general rule, has been for this element of denial to rule popular American policies toward drug treatment and towards moral policy in general...

I think its very much a question of constitution...even if that means I'm an elitist...I actually don't have a problem with strangers, I've got more general romantic relationship type trip ups as the product of a really broken marriage and a ghetto public school system. I'm kinda like Roon in the other AA thread:

I HATE AA!!

and the fact that I hate AA so much, keeps me from hitting bottom. I can indulge, but I will never get to the point of going to AA.