Father Wants 12-Year-Old Son Circumcised

[matcom]

:popcorn:

<snip>

A former Medford man who converted to Judaism wants his 12-year-old son to do the same. That requires circumcision -- something the mother adamantly opposes.

The divorced couple has been battling over the issue for three years, including whether the boy wants to undergo the procedure. So far, Oregon courts have squarely sided with the father, who has custody.

That doesn't surprise Kathy T. Graham, associate dean for academic affairs at Willamette University College of Law.

"The primary custodial parent is the one that makes the decisions about religion and education and about matters of child-rearing," Graham said.

Other family law experts agree, but say the courts should at least look into the situation to make sure the surgery is in the best interests of the child.

"You're talking about not just religious instruction or whether you're going to send the child to parochial school or public school," commented Lawrence D. Gorin, a Portland attorney. "This is a matter of permanent change of bodily structure. And it's irreversible."

The mother is running out of legal options.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregonian/stories/index.ssf?/base/news/1177644329102660.xml&coll=7

[KitchenWitch]

1. Gosh, at 12, I would think that should be up to the 12 year old.

[MonkeyFunk]

2. no kidding....

or at least wait 6 years and let him decide for himself.

[KitchenWitch]

3. hear hear!

[Parche]

29. Wait

Wait 6years and you can perform it!!!!!!

[supernova]

9. Me three!

:wtf: The kid isn't able to decide for himself? And the parents are unable to abide by his wishes? If I were this kid this might be one of those moments where I'd rather trade in my 'rents for new ones. :crazy:

[Nicole]

20. 15 is the age of consent, according to the article.

"But Julie H. McFarlane, a supervising attorney with the Portland-based Juvenile Rights Project, said that the child's consent for a medical procedure is not required until he turns 15."

They should wait until then IMHO. At this point, I doubt if 3 years will make a big difference.

[Oeditpus Rex]

4. '(snip)'

:rofl:



:popcorn:



Edit: Subject lines apparently do not like < and >.

[KitchenWitch]

5. ...

:spank:

[Oeditpus Rex]

37. Hey, g'hed and tell me

that wasn't an absolutely marvelous coincidence. :rofl:

[KitchenWitch]

39. When you're right, you're right!

:rofl:

[mainegreen]

6. 'It's not much different from cosmetic surgery.'

Riiiiight. And we should all want cosmetic surgery for children.
Especially on their penis.
:eyes:

[Left Is Write]

27. Unless it's medically indicated, it IS cosmetic surgery.

[mainegreen]

42. That actually was my point.

[Left Is Write]

45. I know. I was agreeing with you.

:)

[mainegreen]

50. Oooops!

:blush:

[Ariana Celeste]

7. That's a decision that child should make for himself when he's an adult

That is just awful.

[LeftyMom]

8. We really need a change in the law in this country.

Cutting a kid up based on superstition is not acceptable in females, and it shouldn't be for males either.

[SteppingRazor]

10. It's a question of freedom of religion, though

the state shouldn't tell people what they can or cannot do in terms of religion — unless the health of someone is affected, and nipping the tip has no ill effect on health.

Given that the Supreme Court has ruled that animal sacrifice is a protected religious practice, I don't see how it can rule against circumcision.

[LeftyMom]

12. But it does effect health, as there's a risk of infection, loss of the genitals and death

Even in cases where all goes according to plan, sexual function is impaired.

Religious freedom ends where another's rights begin, and bodily integrity is a right. Otherwise, we have to start allowing FGM too.

[SteppingRazor]

17. I have to disagree...

everything you've stated is purely speculative. In fact, I can name studies that show improved sexual function in circumcised men: "a survey of adult males using self-report suggests more varied sexual practice and less sexual dysfunction in circumcised adult men." (American Academy of Pediatrics: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/pediatrics;103/3/686.pdf)


I could name others that state there's no difference between the two: "No valid evidence to date, however, supports the notion that being circumcised affects sexual sensation or satisfaction." (American Academy of Family Physicians: http://www.aafp.org/online/en/home/clinical/clinicalrecs/circumcision.html)


And similar studies that show absolutely no relationship one way or the other to infection: "There is little evidence to affirm the association between circumcision status and optimal penile hygiene." (Amnerican Academy of Pediatrics: ibid)

While still others say that circumcised men have less chance of infection than uncircumcised ones: ("An argument for circumcision. Prevention of balanitis in the adult," http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2383029)

So, given that for every problem you've named, I can find studies showing that the problem is actually that of uncircumcised men — or that all sides are equal — I'd give way to the freedom of religion questions here.

On edit: as for the "loss of gentials" and "death" points you made, I'll grant you that, while extremely rare, these things do happen. But it seems counterintuitive to deny unnecessary surgery simply based on the extremely small risks associated with it — else, we would be outlawing all plastic surgery.

[LeftyMom]

30. but plastic surgery with no real benefit is reserved for consenting adults.

As for the rest:

1. Loss of the foreskin and the frenulum eliminates the gliding mechanism. This decreases lubrication during sex.

2. Loss of the foreskin and frenulum removes the most densely enervated tissue on the male body and results in keratinization of the glans. (If you don't think the loss of moisture and build up of scar tissue makes a huge difference, cover the end of your finger in a bandage for a few days and see how much more sensitive the skin is to sensation when the bandage is removed.)

3. The infection risk associated with circumcision is during healing. Everyday bacterial infections of the open wound are a more common result, but typically sexually transmitted infections have also been associated with some Orthodox bris practices.

4. I have no problem with circumcision as a religious rite (well, no more than I do with snake handling or getting dunked in a pool in dress clothes or getting ridden by loa or any other goofy superstitious thing people do to themselves in the name of religion)- in consenting adults. I was raised Catholic. My father felt the need to exercise his freedom of religion by getting a guy in a dress to say some latin over me and dump water on my head. Goofy, but harmless and ultimately of no consequence to me as an adult. Still, it's kind of offensive that he felt the need to dedicate me to his particular religious practice a good decade before I was capable of understanding it. If he'd gone and got my naughty bits rearranged instead, honestly I'd never forgive him even if I had stuck with whatever faith required it. Nobody has the right to make such alterations to another human being's most private anatomy without dire need.

[SteppingRazor]

34. All certainly valid points.

The alternative to no. 1 and 2 is that less feeling=more endurance, which in turn leads to greater sexual experience. I have no idea which of those two propositions is right, or whether either of them can be argued to be more valid (I'm certainly no expert on anyone's sexual experience other than my own, to say the least).

And I also certainly grant no. 3, though as I mentioned, some studies show that circumcision helps prevent infection later in life. So, which is better? The risk of infection at the moment of surgery, or the decrease of infection later on? Again, I have no idea which one of these is a more valid argument.

As for circumcision as religious rite, I don't think it's for me to judge what other people do with their religions. As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I'm not much of a believer in this whole "God" thing, but I get a little antsy when people start saying what other people can and cannot do with regard to their own beliefs.

[MnFats]

38. thank you. you said that better than I would have ... with sources, too! n/t

[supernova]

14. It's the boy's decision in conjunction

with his Rabbi. If the kid is getting a Bar-Mitzvah, then both parents need to back off about what the kid wants or doesn't want to do. That this turned into a custody battle is rediculous.

[SteppingRazor]

18. I agree that having the boy in the middle of a custody battle over this...

is stupid and wrong. Putting the child in the middle of a divorce — whether over circumcision or anything else — is really bad parenting, in my completely unknowing opinion (i.e. I'm not a parent).

[supernova]

19. I agree w/ you

steppingrazor, and this particular example is especially egregious. I'm not Jewish, but if I understand correctly, he will, within the year, be considered as an adult in that faith, yes? So it strikes me as especially gauling.


In the article, one of the legal reps (the judge, even? don't remember now and too lazy to look again) said the child needed a court advocate because clearly his best interests aren't being observed. Nice, huh?

[SteppingRazor]

21. Yeah, it seems pretty obvious that this is less about the tenets of the Jewish faith...

and more about denying the other parent a say in how the kid is raised.

I'm not Jewish either (actually, I'm not much on this whole "God" thing, which I suppose makes it a bit odd that I'm the one defending this practice here), but as I understand it, he can't be considered an adult until he's been circumcised. To compare it to Catholicism, having a bar-mitzvah without first being circumcised would be like having Confirmation without having Baptism or First Communion.

[MonkeyFunk]

23. any surgical procedure

has risks. Circumcisions can and do occasionally go wrong. Being cosmetic surgery, I would hope that it was never performed on a minor.

[xmas74]

35. Thank you.

This no longer deals w/ the complaints against the cosmetic. This is about freedom of religion. A Jewish male is usually circumcized. (I've never met one that wasn't but I'm sure we could find one out there somewhere...)

The parent with custody makes the decision on how the child is raised and what their religion will be. The father is raising his son and the father has chosen to raise his son in the Jewish faith.

With the outspoken views here on DU I think I'd hate to be Jewish and posting here.

[JoDog]

51. My Rabbi buddy

Had a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father. In the eyes of Jewish law, that makes him Jewish. However, his parents didn't want to push him into anything, and the environment he was raised in was only slanted toward Judaism. As a part of this, his father insisted that he not be circumcised as a baby (this was before it was standard practice for all males). If he grew up and decided to be Jewish, then he could get circumcised then. The mother agreed. I don't think my friend was bar Mitzvahed either.

Later on, while studying at yeshiva and living as orthodox, he decided to have the surgery.

It is true that if the boy decides to make a commitment to be Jewish and converts, he will eventually need to get circumcised. It is required of all Jewish males. As to whether he can be Bar Mitzvahed without it, I don't know. There is also the fact that the boy himself is not Jewish. The father did not convert until after the child was born. Even then, if the mother was not Jewish at the time of the birth, the child is not Jewish. The boy must convert into the faith. What the guidelines are for the conversion for someone so young, I don't know. I know most reform and conservative shuls tend to shy away from allowing people under the age of 18 in conversion classes.

Since we are dealing with a case where the boy wasn't raised in a Jewish household (the father only converted to Judaism after his birth) and the kid is already 12, I think everybody should just wait a few years until the child can legally decide for himself. I see this as less of a religious thing and more of a power play between the parents. I should hope the father's rabbi could step in and talk some sense to everybody. The boy isn't Jewish, until he completes conversion classes (which will probably take years) whether or not he has a foreskin is moot.

[LostinVA]

11. YOU'RE A FUCKING EVIL MAN!!!

Go post this in GD right now!!!

[SteppingRazor]

13. Oh sweet Jesus, are you crazy?!

There isn't enough popcorn in all of DU to properly supply this thread in GD.

[supernova]

15. LOL!

:evilgrin:

[matcom]

22. DONE!!!!1

:rofl:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x791009

[LostinVA]

31. You are a golden god, Matcom!

[matcom]

32. i'm the gift that keeps on giving

last week's breastfeeding thread hit 300+

think we'll see similar success? :D

[LostinVA]

36. We can only hope -- it's happened before

[querelle]

16. This Could Be Extraordinarily Painful For The Boy

I know a guy that was circumcised at the age of 33. His foreskin was too tight and was painful to retract for cleaning, so his doctor recommended circumcision. He told me that it was the most painful experience of his life and that he was confined to bed for several days because of it. I guess doctors don't mind doing it to infant boys because they can't articulate what hurts and hey, all babies cry anyway and they won't remember it. It's a barbaric practice and should be done away with. Particularly on older males.

BTW, has the father had himself circumcised? I would suggest that he have himself done before he subjects his son to it.

Q

[GoneOffShore]

33. Just a couple questions here. Not being a big fan of penile pain, myself.

"His foreskin was too tight and was painful to retract for cleaning, so his doctor recommended circumcision.":

And so what was he going to do? What were the alternatives?

"It's a barbaric practice and should be done away with. Particularly on older males."

No anesthetic? No Percocet or something else for post operative pain?

Just asking.

:shrug:

:popcorn:

[JoDog]

53. The tale

told to me by the friend I mentioned up thread is similar. He had it done in his 30's, and said it was one of the worst pains he'd ever experienced. This is a man who has been shot and stabbed in the line of duty as a deputy in Texas and in Vietnam. So he knows something about physical pain.

He was given anesthetic and pain killers, but considering all the nerves that run through that part of the body, well, there was only so much that could be done. He also admitted that part of it was psychological--here he was, a big burly guy, a vet, a cop, and these people were messing with his man parts!

[RetroLounge]

24. Evil evil evil

:popcorn:

RL

[matcom]

25. now you can follow the GD discussion!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x791009

:rofl:

[rug]

26. The article doesn't mention if the boy was appointed a Law Guardian

[sasquatch]

28. He must have joined a reformed sect

[rug]

41. His sex will certainly be reformed.

[sasquatch]

55. *rimshot*

[greatauntoftriplets]

40. My father was not circumcised until he was 22.

His family didn't believe in it. Then, he joined the Merchant Marine on the Great Lakes and developed a bad ulcer. The Merchant Marine sent him to their hospital in Chicago and when they saw that he was in original condition, they decided that they HAD TO snip.

I gather that he found it quite unpleasant. :-(

[dysfunctional press]

43. with summer coming on, who wears a turtle-neck anyway...?

go with the crew collar.

[domlaw]

44. LOL Good God Man

When I go to heaven, I'm going with it all intact. I like the hooded look.

[madinmaryland]

46. At this age, isn't that genital mutilation?

If this was a female, we would ALL be screaming to high hell about this.

:grr:

[Bombtrack]

56. it's genital mutilation when they're infants. so um, yeah

It's also parental abuse on many levels. If this was a private matter it would be, but making such a fuss about it that it becomes a national news story is pretty much something he's never going to be done with therapy if he seeks it and he willl need it for.

What a wackjob.

[philosophie_en_rose]

47. Brutal.

I suppose I can't judge a parent that chooses something that I wouldn't. I have mixed feelings about circumcision or ear piercing or cosmetic surgery. But, if the parents and child are for it, what could I say?

However, I wonder whether this kid objects to the operations. If not, if he really wants to convert, than I suppose a medical procedure with anethesia etc wouldn't be horrific. But, if he doesn't agree, then I feel sick for him. I can't imagine forcing a kid to endure it against his will.

[IntravenousDemilo]

48. If little boys are born with foreskins, they're obviously there for a reason...

...as much as fingers and toes. Don't fuck with nature.

[Mojambo]

49. Father's Day is going to be a very interesting time in that house. n/t

[MrSlayer]

52. Just leave him alone to decide at this point.

Fuck man, you don't mess with a man's johnson after he's aware of things. They only get away with that shit because as a three-day-old infant you haven't the experience to kick the doctor's ass when he comes at you with the scalpel. Leave the kid alone and fuck the idea of trying to force him to convert to a religion against his will.

[B3Nut]

54. Damn skippy

And what's the deal with this "you're unclean and unworthy to worship God if your pecker's intact" silliness? If He didn't want that thing there, why'd he design it that way or let it evolve that way? What is this, an in-the-field design change? I thought God was perfect, yet there's this major oops. Talk about lousy quality control and engineering....sheesh! I think I can be reasonably certain of the idea that any entity intelligent enough to design the universe and organisms, if he/she/it/they exist(s), cannot POSSIBLY be this irrational and stupid. It's kind of like the fundies who say sexual pleasure is sinful, especially if enjoyed by women (go figure...)...if so, why do we have the capacity for sexual pleasure?

It's crap like that (among other things) that's caused my faith to, for the most part, collapse and self-destruct in an amorphous heap on the floor of my cranium...occasionally it emits a squeak or a farty noise, but that's it.

Todd in Beerbratistan